(03-31-2021 04:47 PM)Gilesfan Wrote: People love to make that up.
What are your thoughts on why Jeff's players typically shoot the 3 so poorly? I'm not talking about a player or two that is the exception. I'm talking about the norm for the last few seasons. He and the coaching staff are the common denominator so there has to be something related to that when most teams are better at it.
When’s the last time ODU had a good three point shooting team? Because just scrolling through the stats season by season... none of Blaines teams shot the three ball well either. It’s been a long time.. you pretty much have to go back to the Mark Poag era to find a good outside shooting ODU squad.
(03-31-2021 04:47 PM)Gilesfan Wrote: People love to make that up.
What are your thoughts on why Jeff's players typically shoot the 3 so poorly? I'm not talking about a player or two that is the exception. I'm talking about the norm for the last few seasons. He and the coaching staff are the common denominator so there has to be something related to that when most teams are better at it.
Jeff's teams have shot poorly since he was at UVA. He absolutely is the problem. We can argue able which of his tendencies are the root cause, but there is no arguing that JJ produces teams that can't shoot.
(03-31-2021 04:47 PM)Gilesfan Wrote: People love to make that up.
What are your thoughts on why Jeff's players typically shoot the 3 so poorly? I'm not talking about a player or two that is the exception. I'm talking about the norm for the last few seasons. He and the coaching staff are the common denominator so there has to be something related to that when most teams are better at it.
When’s the last time ODU had a good three point shooting team? Because just scrolling through the stats season by season... none of Blaines teams shot the three ball well either. It’s been a long time.. you pretty much have to go back to the Mark Poag era to find a good outside shooting ODU squad.
The last good 3 point shooting team was 1999. Other than that, 2018 and 2019 were the better 3 point shooting teams.
WIth the last 2 coaches we have coaches that prioritize other attributes.
(03-31-2021 04:47 PM)Gilesfan Wrote: People love to make that up.
What are your thoughts on why Jeff's players typically shoot the 3 so poorly? I'm not talking about a player or two that is the exception. I'm talking about the norm for the last few seasons. He and the coaching staff are the common denominator so there has to be something related to that when most teams are better at it.
When’s the last time ODU had a good three point shooting team? Because just scrolling through the stats season by season... none of Blaines teams shot the three ball well either. It’s been a long time.. you pretty much have to go back to the Mark Poag era to find a good outside shooting ODU squad.
The last good 3 point shooting team was 1999. Other than that, 2018 and 2019 were the better 3 point shooting teams.
WIth the last 2 coaches we have coaches that prioritize other attributes.
It’s true. JJ does coach like a poor mans version of Blaine Taylor, only sober and without the charisma or post season appearances.
(This post was last modified: 03-31-2021 07:34 PM by monarx.)
(03-31-2021 04:47 PM)Gilesfan Wrote: People love to make that up.
What are your thoughts on why Jeff's players typically shoot the 3 so poorly? I'm not talking about a player or two that is the exception. I'm talking about the norm for the last few seasons. He and the coaching staff are the common denominator so there has to be something related to that when most teams are better at it.
When’s the last time ODU had a good three point shooting team? Because just scrolling through the stats season by season... none of Blaines teams shot the three ball well either. It’s been a long time.. you pretty much have to go back to the Mark Poag era to find a good outside shooting ODU squad.
The last good 3 point shooting team was 1999. Other than that, 2018 and 2019 were the better 3 point shooting teams.
WIth the last 2 coaches we have coaches that prioritize other attributes.
It’s true. JJ does coach like a poor mans version of Blaine Taylor, only sober and without the charisma or post season appearances.
Actually, Jones has 8 NCAA tourney appearences (29 years) to 6 NCAA tourney appearences for Taylor (19 years). So Jones more appearences while Taylor is slightly higher in percentage of years in the tourney (31-27).
Our best years in recent memory were under Blaine Taylor, as was our highest national profile. Playing meaningful Bracketbuster games and having 3 CAA teams make the dance were as good as we have seen.
That said, when Blaine had his issues the year after the 2nd Butler loss, that year was awful and very forgettable. Except for this one little nugget.....
(04-01-2021 12:14 AM)ODUsmitty Wrote: Our best years in recent memory were under Blaine Taylor, as was our highest national profile. Playing meaningful Bracketbuster games and having 3 CAA teams make the dance were as good as we have seen.
That said, when Blaine had his issues the year after the 2nd Butler loss, that year was awful and very forgettable. Except for this one little nugget.....
We saw that game in-person and had a great time. It's always great to win when you don't expect to.
(03-31-2021 04:30 PM)BigBlueBobby Wrote: Our players are afraid to shoot 3's and miss! That's why we have such poor shooters. If everytime you shoot one and miss you have to feel the wrath of JJ as you leave the court it has to effect your confidence. Especially when he meets you at half court with his arms flailing and screaming at the top of his lungs.
He only yells at them when it is a poor choice or selfish play and he yells just as much when they miss a defensive assignment too.
(03-31-2021 04:47 PM)Gilesfan Wrote: People love to make that up.
What are your thoughts on why Jeff's players typically shoot the 3 so poorly? I'm not talking about a player or two that is the exception. I'm talking about the norm for the last few seasons. He and the coaching staff are the common denominator so there has to be something related to that when most teams are better at it.
When’s the last time ODU had a good three point shooting team? Because just scrolling through the stats season by season... none of Blaines teams shot the three ball well either. It’s been a long time.. you pretty much have to go back to the Mark Poag era to find a good outside shooting ODU squad.
None of them shot super well as a team, but there was always that guy who could hit the 3 when he was open or that got on a hot streak. They shot well enough to keep teams honest. Isaiah Hunter comes to mind. (I think that is who i am thinking of). Our current team and the teams of the last couple of years don't have that one guy, that if the ball is in his hands in the the corner you had a decent feeling he could hit the shot.
(03-31-2021 04:30 PM)BigBlueBobby Wrote: Our players are afraid to shoot 3's and miss! That's why we have such poor shooters. If everytime you shoot one and miss you have to feel the wrath of JJ as you leave the court it has to effect your confidence. Especially when he meets you at half court with his arms flailing and screaming at the top of his lungs.
He only yells at them when it is a poor choice or selfish play and he yells just as much when they miss a defensive assignment too.
In my opinion, this is the problem. When players get yanked from the game or yelled at during games for a "poor shot selection" it creates doubt, apprehension, and overthinking. Those things are kryptonite to a shooter. You have to instill good instincts in players regarding what is a good shot and what isn't, but for the most part, that needs to happen in practice and in film sessions with reasoned explanation of what is a good shot and why the shot(s) the player is taking hurt the team. During games you have to live with an occasional poor shot selection in order to balance confidence with execution. Now, if someone is just throwing up one bad shot after another, then it is time to sit them down until they can play within the system. But it all needs a measured approach. My experience in coaching leads me to a simple formula. With young players you have to instill confidence first, and then you can move to execution. I think Jeff skips right past the confidence part, and expects flawless execution, which is just not likely to yield optimal individual performance.
I always go back to baseball and pitchers for examples, since that is where my experience lies, but I have coached a number of pitchers who had a ton of raw talent over the years, but were not where they needed to be in terms of confidence in their "stuff". I would not put those pitchers in difficult situations until we overcame the confidence problem. The JJ equivalent would be taking that unconfident pitcher, teaching him how you want to approach a game, throwing him out on the mound, and then acting like that frustrated parent who just yells "C'mon Johnny throw a damn strike" as if he is not already trying to throw strikes, but if someone yells at him to throw strikes repeatedly, it will surely sink in eventually.
(This post was last modified: 04-01-2021 09:01 AM by Monarchblue.)
(03-31-2021 04:30 PM)BigBlueBobby Wrote: Our players are afraid to shoot 3's and miss! That's why we have such poor shooters. If everytime you shoot one and miss you have to feel the wrath of JJ as you leave the court it has to effect your confidence. Especially when he meets you at half court with his arms flailing and screaming at the top of his lungs.
He only yells at them when it is a poor choice or selfish play and he yells just as much when they miss a defensive assignment too.
In my opinion, this is the problem. When players get yanked from the game or yelled at during games for a "poor shot selection" it creates doubt, apprehension, and overthinking. Those things are kryptonite to a shooter. You have to instill good instincts in players regarding what is a good shot and what isn't, but for the most part, that needs to happen in practice and in film sessions with reasoned explanation of what is a good shot and why the shot(s) the player is taking hurt the team. During games you have to live with an occasional poor shot selection in order to balance confidence with execution. Now, if someone is just throwing up one bad shot after another, then it is time to sit them down until they can play within the system. But it all needs a measured approach. My experience in coaching leads me to a simple formula. With young players you have to instill confidence first, and then you can move to execution. I think Jeff skips right past the confidence part, and expects flawless execution, which is just not likely to yield optimal individual performance.
I always go back to baseball and pitchers for examples, since that is where my experience lies, but I have coached a number of pitchers who had a ton of raw talent over the years, but were not where they needed to be in terms of confidence in their "stuff". I would not put those pitchers in difficult situations until we overcame the confidence problem. The JJ equivalent would be taking that unconfident pitcher, teaching him how you want to approach a game, throwing him out on the mound, and then acting like that frustrated parent who just yells "C'mon Johnny throw a damn strike" as if he is not already trying to throw strikes, but if someone yells at him to throw strikes repeatedly, it will surely sink in eventually.
Your second paragraph is not apples to apples. Making shots or throwing strikes is about execution. It would be like telling a pitcher to throw all fastballs and the pitcher decides he wants to throw all curveballs. Good shot selection is not a difficult concept.
(03-31-2021 04:30 PM)BigBlueBobby Wrote: Our players are afraid to shoot 3's and miss! That's why we have such poor shooters. If everytime you shoot one and miss you have to feel the wrath of JJ as you leave the court it has to effect your confidence. Especially when he meets you at half court with his arms flailing and screaming at the top of his lungs.
He only yells at them when it is a poor choice or selfish play and he yells just as much when they miss a defensive assignment too.
In my opinion, this is the problem. When players get yanked from the game or yelled at during games for a "poor shot selection" it creates doubt, apprehension, and overthinking. Those things are kryptonite to a shooter. You have to instill good instincts in players regarding what is a good shot and what isn't, but for the most part, that needs to happen in practice and in film sessions with reasoned explanation of what is a good shot and why the shot(s) the player is taking hurt the team. During games you have to live with an occasional poor shot selection in order to balance confidence with execution. Now, if someone is just throwing up one bad shot after another, then it is time to sit them down until they can play within the system. But it all needs a measured approach. My experience in coaching leads me to a simple formula. With young players you have to instill confidence first, and then you can move to execution. I think Jeff skips right past the confidence part, and expects flawless execution, which is just not likely to yield optimal individual performance.
I always go back to baseball and pitchers for examples, since that is where my experience lies, but I have coached a number of pitchers who had a ton of raw talent over the years, but were not where they needed to be in terms of confidence in their "stuff". I would not put those pitchers in difficult situations until we overcame the confidence problem. The JJ equivalent would be taking that unconfident pitcher, teaching him how you want to approach a game, throwing him out on the mound, and then acting like that frustrated parent who just yells "C'mon Johnny throw a damn strike" as if he is not already trying to throw strikes, but if someone yells at him to throw strikes repeatedly, it will surely sink in eventually.
Your second paragraph is not apples to apples. Making shots or throwing strikes is about execution. It would be like telling a pitcher to throw all fastballs and the pitcher decides he wants to throw all curveballs. Good shot selection is not a difficult concept.
Good shots are the ones that a player can and usually does make at a reasonable percentage in a game situation. Anything else isn't a good shot no matter how capable they are, or how well they shoot it in practice. Some players rise to the occasion in games while others shy away from it. I personally saw Freeman practice the exact shots over and over and over again at game speed exactly how he expected to take (and make) them in games. I've never seen a player practice that kind of exact repetition harder than he did at ODU. It didn't surprise me at all when he made those difficult shots coming off of a screen in the games. I doubt that it surprised him either.
I agree with the earlier comment where a coach can get into a player's head if he is liable to chastise them during games for taking a "bad" shot, or missing a crucial shot. Not saying that Jones absolutely does that, but something is going on that his teams typically shoot very poor from outside the arc compared to most other teams that ODU plays against.
I remember having guys like 6'8" Keyon Carter hitting some outside shots. Looked him up, 34% for his career. Not the best ever but I remember him and Trian seeming to hit their share against that team to the north when it mattered.
(04-01-2021 11:44 AM)mac Wrote: I remember having guys like 6'8" Keyon Carter hitting some outside shots. Looked him up, 34% for his career. Not the best ever but I remember him and Trian seeming to hit their share against that team to the north when it mattered.
Didn't Cal Bowdler have a 50% success rate from 3? I think he took two in his college career.
(03-31-2021 04:30 PM)BigBlueBobby Wrote: Our players are afraid to shoot 3's and miss! That's why we have such poor shooters. If everytime you shoot one and miss you have to feel the wrath of JJ as you leave the court it has to effect your confidence. Especially when he meets you at half court with his arms flailing and screaming at the top of his lungs.
He only yells at them when it is a poor choice or selfish play and he yells just as much when they miss a defensive assignment too.
In my opinion, this is the problem. When players get yanked from the game or yelled at during games for a "poor shot selection" it creates doubt, apprehension, and overthinking. Those things are kryptonite to a shooter. You have to instill good instincts in players regarding what is a good shot and what isn't, but for the most part, that needs to happen in practice and in film sessions with reasoned explanation of what is a good shot and why the shot(s) the player is taking hurt the team. During games you have to live with an occasional poor shot selection in order to balance confidence with execution. Now, if someone is just throwing up one bad shot after another, then it is time to sit them down until they can play within the system. But it all needs a measured approach. My experience in coaching leads me to a simple formula. With young players you have to instill confidence first, and then you can move to execution. I think Jeff skips right past the confidence part, and expects flawless execution, which is just not likely to yield optimal individual performance.
I always go back to baseball and pitchers for examples, since that is where my experience lies, but I have coached a number of pitchers who had a ton of raw talent over the years, but were not where they needed to be in terms of confidence in their "stuff". I would not put those pitchers in difficult situations until we overcame the confidence problem. The JJ equivalent would be taking that unconfident pitcher, teaching him how you want to approach a game, throwing him out on the mound, and then acting like that frustrated parent who just yells "C'mon Johnny throw a damn strike" as if he is not already trying to throw strikes, but if someone yells at him to throw strikes repeatedly, it will surely sink in eventually.
Your second paragraph is not apples to apples. Making shots or throwing strikes is about execution. It would be like telling a pitcher to throw all fastballs and the pitcher decides he wants to throw all curveballs. Good shot selection is not a difficult concept.
That is not true. We have a philosophy, and plan of attack. If that pitcher is not confident in his stuff, he cannot execute our plan of attack because he is thinking too much, starts trying too hard to make a perfect pitch because he is afraid if he throws a ball in the zone he will get hit. There is a reason that "trust your stuff" has been a common phrase in baseball for a long time. Making a pitch and making a shot and making a putt and any number of other highly skilled sports actions are similar in that they combine repeating fine mechanics and a need for strong confidence in your ability to execute.
Based on the part of my post you are disagreeing with, you seem to be arguing that confidence doesn't matter in shooting a basketball.
(03-31-2021 04:30 PM)BigBlueBobby Wrote: Our players are afraid to shoot 3's and miss! That's why we have such poor shooters. If everytime you shoot one and miss you have to feel the wrath of JJ as you leave the court it has to effect your confidence. Especially when he meets you at half court with his arms flailing and screaming at the top of his lungs.
He only yells at them when it is a poor choice or selfish play and he yells just as much when they miss a defensive assignment too.
In my opinion, this is the problem. When players get yanked from the game or yelled at during games for a "poor shot selection" it creates doubt, apprehension, and overthinking. Those things are kryptonite to a shooter. You have to instill good instincts in players regarding what is a good shot and what isn't, but for the most part, that needs to happen in practice and in film sessions with reasoned explanation of what is a good shot and why the shot(s) the player is taking hurt the team. During games you have to live with an occasional poor shot selection in order to balance confidence with execution. Now, if someone is just throwing up one bad shot after another, then it is time to sit them down until they can play within the system. But it all needs a measured approach. My experience in coaching leads me to a simple formula. With young players you have to instill confidence first, and then you can move to execution. I think Jeff skips right past the confidence part, and expects flawless execution, which is just not likely to yield optimal individual performance.
I always go back to baseball and pitchers for examples, since that is where my experience lies, but I have coached a number of pitchers who had a ton of raw talent over the years, but were not where they needed to be in terms of confidence in their "stuff". I would not put those pitchers in difficult situations until we overcame the confidence problem. The JJ equivalent would be taking that unconfident pitcher, teaching him how you want to approach a game, throwing him out on the mound, and then acting like that frustrated parent who just yells "C'mon Johnny throw a damn strike" as if he is not already trying to throw strikes, but if someone yells at him to throw strikes repeatedly, it will surely sink in eventually.
Your second paragraph is not apples to apples. Making shots or throwing strikes is about execution. It would be like telling a pitcher to throw all fastballs and the pitcher decides he wants to throw all curveballs. Good shot selection is not a difficult concept.
That is not true. We have a philosophy, and plan of attack. If that pitcher is not confident in his stuff, he cannot execute our plan of attack because he is thinking too much, starts trying too hard to make a perfect pitch because he is afraid if he throws a ball in the zone he will get hit. There is a reason that "trust your stuff" has been a common phrase in baseball for a long time. Making a pitch and making a shot and making a putt and any number of other highly skilled sports actions are similar in that they combine repeating fine mechanics and a need for strong confidence in your ability to execute.
Based on the part of my post you are disagreeing with, you seem to be arguing that confidence doesn't matter in shooting a basketball.
Confidence only matters in the decision to shoot or not shoot. Skill and ability determine whether or not it goes in. Confidence may make you trigger shy, but if that is the case, ensure you are getting the ball to a guy who has the confidence to pull the trigger and play the rest of the game well. Jones yells at guys who make bad decisions, not becasue they shoot and miss. He probably yelled as much at Curry when he tried to play 1 on 5 with an open shooter on the wing, as he yelled at Green for taking a stupid 3 from a bad position early in the shot clock.
(This post was last modified: 04-01-2021 02:12 PM by BigBlueMonarch.)
(04-01-2021 08:09 AM)BigBlueMonarch Wrote: He only yells at them when it is a poor choice or selfish play and he yells just as much when they miss a defensive assignment too.
In my opinion, this is the problem. When players get yanked from the game or yelled at during games for a "poor shot selection" it creates doubt, apprehension, and overthinking. Those things are kryptonite to a shooter. You have to instill good instincts in players regarding what is a good shot and what isn't, but for the most part, that needs to happen in practice and in film sessions with reasoned explanation of what is a good shot and why the shot(s) the player is taking hurt the team. During games you have to live with an occasional poor shot selection in order to balance confidence with execution. Now, if someone is just throwing up one bad shot after another, then it is time to sit them down until they can play within the system. But it all needs a measured approach. My experience in coaching leads me to a simple formula. With young players you have to instill confidence first, and then you can move to execution. I think Jeff skips right past the confidence part, and expects flawless execution, which is just not likely to yield optimal individual performance.
I always go back to baseball and pitchers for examples, since that is where my experience lies, but I have coached a number of pitchers who had a ton of raw talent over the years, but were not where they needed to be in terms of confidence in their "stuff". I would not put those pitchers in difficult situations until we overcame the confidence problem. The JJ equivalent would be taking that unconfident pitcher, teaching him how you want to approach a game, throwing him out on the mound, and then acting like that frustrated parent who just yells "C'mon Johnny throw a damn strike" as if he is not already trying to throw strikes, but if someone yells at him to throw strikes repeatedly, it will surely sink in eventually.
Your second paragraph is not apples to apples. Making shots or throwing strikes is about execution. It would be like telling a pitcher to throw all fastballs and the pitcher decides he wants to throw all curveballs. Good shot selection is not a difficult concept.
That is not true. We have a philosophy, and plan of attack. If that pitcher is not confident in his stuff, he cannot execute our plan of attack because he is thinking too much, starts trying too hard to make a perfect pitch because he is afraid if he throws a ball in the zone he will get hit. There is a reason that "trust your stuff" has been a common phrase in baseball for a long time. Making a pitch and making a shot and making a putt and any number of other highly skilled sports actions are similar in that they combine repeating fine mechanics and a need for strong confidence in your ability to execute.
Based on the part of my post you are disagreeing with, you seem to be arguing that confidence doesn't matter in shooting a basketball.
Confidence only matters in the decision to shoot or not shoot. Skill and ability determine whether or not it goes in. Confidence may make you trigger shy, but if that is the case, ensure you are getting the ball to a guy who has the confidence to pull the trigger and play the rest of the game well. Jones yells at guys who make bad decisions, not becasue they shoot and miss. He probably yelled as much at Curry when he tried to play 1 on 5 with an open shooter on the wing, as he yelled at Green for taking a stupid 3 from a bad position early in the shot clock.
Have you ever played sports? If confidence doesn't matter other than in deciding whether or not you will shoot, can you explain why dudes choke at the freethrow line when a game is on the line? Can you explain why a guy might short arm a 15 footer and shoot an airball on a wide open shot? Every single player who plays college basketball has the ability to make that shot, but they don't all have the confidence to execute something simple when there is added pressure.
(This post was last modified: 04-01-2021 03:11 PM by Monarchblue.)
(04-01-2021 01:32 PM)Gilesfan Wrote: I'd like you to prove it.
Prove what? That confidence matters when you are shooting the ball? Is there even a debate about that?
I doubt that you can prove it. (certainly cannot prove that Jones decreases confidence of players causing them to shoot worse than they would originally shoot)
(This post was last modified: 04-01-2021 04:04 PM by Gilesfan.)
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The 2021 NCAA tournament thread
