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When does a school lose "blueblood" status?
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OscarWildeCat Offline
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Post: #41
RE: When does a school lose "blueblood" status?
This article suggests criteria to qualify for and retain status as a basketball blue blood. The author concludes there are six blue blood programs:


Duke
UNC
Kansas
Kentucky
Indiana
UCLA

He goes on to identify another handful of “new bloods” who haven’t achieved BB status despite their recent success.


https://baselinetimes.com/the-definitive...ood-guide/
(This post was last modified: 03-15-2021 05:04 PM by OscarWildeCat.)
03-15-2021 05:03 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #42
RE: When does a school lose "blueblood" status?
There are some cities and states in which basketball is a "religion" of sorts. Often, these cities and states offer populations with a modest diversity of people. And the reason? In short, the larger and more diverse a city's or state's population, the less any one cultural element — in this case basketball — can be overwhelmingly popular.

So on that theme, and if I might show my homerism/bias toward two athletic programs I follow with passion ...

Basketball — high school, college and pro — is a religion in the state of Indiana and in the city Memphis. And that reason, perhaps more than any other, is why IU Hoosier and UofM Tiger basketball — even when down — in theory, can charge back quickly.

And yes, there are other examples: the states of Kentucky and North Carolina and the cities of Louisville, D.C., Chicago and Philly.

Some of you might add other examples.
03-15-2021 05:20 PM
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ghostofclt! Offline
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Post: #43
RE: When does a school lose "blueblood" status?
clt says committing the greatest case of academic fraud in NCAA history could be a start...UNC CHeat.
03-15-2021 05:22 PM
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TUowl06 Online
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Post: #44
RE: When does a school lose "blueblood" status?
(03-15-2021 04:25 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Can a team lose blueblood status? Yes, I think so, but... it takes time, possibly just as long to lose it as it does to gain it (i.e. many decades of failure vs. many decades of success).

Has Nebraska football lost its blue-bloodedness? Not yet, but it's definitely fading.
The same could be said for Indiana basketball.

OTOH, I don't think any ACC football team has achieved blueblood status yet, either. Miami and FSU were both on that path until around 2005. FSU teased us all with a rebirth in 2011-14. Miami had that one 10-win season under Mark Richt. Clemson has the multiple championships, which is one of the marks of a blueblood, but needs to maintain excellence to go from "elite" (now) to "blueblood".

JMO, though.

Miami is a VERY interesting case simply because of how much of an impact they had on the sport both on and off the field. 30 years later and the 1980's Hurricanes are still arguably the most transcendent era in the history of college football. Notre Dame in the 1920's maybe the other?

The fact that Miami won a national title under 4 different head coaches is rather unique as well. It also points to a more prominent "program presence" than say Florida State.....

I'm not saying "The U" is a blue blood. Just they have perhaps the most unique situation in all of college football.

Growing up the college football blue bloods were Notre Dame, Michigan, Alabama, USC, Texas, Nebraska, Ohio State and Oklahoma.

Penn State, Auburn, UCLA, Miami, Florida State, Pitt, Washington, Michigan State, Texas A&M etc were in the next tier....
(This post was last modified: 03-15-2021 05:34 PM by TUowl06.)
03-15-2021 05:32 PM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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Post: #45
RE: When does a school lose "blueblood" status?
(03-15-2021 05:20 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  There are some cities and states in which basketball is a "religion" of sorts. Often, these cities and states offer populations with a modest diversity of people. And the reason? In short, the larger and more diverse a city's or state's population, the less any one cultural element — in this case basketball — can be overwhelmingly popular.

So on that theme, and if I might show my homerism/bias toward two athletic programs I follow with passion ...

Basketball — high school, college and pro — is a religion in the state of Indiana and in the city Memphis. And that reason, perhaps more than any other, is why IU Hoosier and UofM Tiger basketball — even when down — in theory, can charge back quickly.

And yes, there are other examples: the states of Kentucky and North Carolina and the cities of Louisville, D.C., Chicago and Philly.

Some of you might add other examples.

The state of Kansas. Without a doubt.

Cincinnati (at the border of Indiana & Kentucky) used to be basketball-crazy. My high school had 75 boys try out for the freshman basketball team (out of about 100 boys in my class).

Between UC, Xavier, Miami (winningest MAC program), and Dayton, plus various displaced IU and UK fans, it was college-hoops crazy. The Cincinnati-Xavier game was one of the only days a year that my grade school let us have an out-of-uniform day.

Not as much any more though. I'm not sure what changed. Football is probably ahead of basketball in the Cincy region nowadays.
03-15-2021 05:43 PM
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TOPSTRAIGHT Offline
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Post: #46
RE: When does a school lose "blueblood" status?
When espn SAYS it has lost blue blood status. All bow to the four letter network.
03-15-2021 05:47 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #47
RE: When does a school lose "blueblood" status?
(03-15-2021 05:22 PM)ghostofclt! Wrote:  clt says committing the greatest case of academic fraud in NCAA history could be a start...UNC CHeat.

It reads as though clt went to that community college in Charlotte.
03-15-2021 05:58 PM
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CliftonAve Offline
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Post: #48
RE: When does a school lose "blueblood" status?
(03-15-2021 05:43 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-15-2021 05:20 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  There are some cities and states in which basketball is a "religion" of sorts. Often, these cities and states offer populations with a modest diversity of people. And the reason? In short, the larger and more diverse a city's or state's population, the less any one cultural element — in this case basketball — can be overwhelmingly popular.

So on that theme, and if I might show my homerism/bias toward two athletic programs I follow with passion ...

Basketball — high school, college and pro — is a religion in the state of Indiana and in the city Memphis. And that reason, perhaps more than any other, is why IU Hoosier and UofM Tiger basketball — even when down — in theory, can charge back quickly.

And yes, there are other examples: the states of Kentucky and North Carolina and the cities of Louisville, D.C., Chicago and Philly.

Some of you might add other examples.

The state of Kansas. Without a doubt.

Cincinnati (at the border of Indiana & Kentucky) used to be basketball-crazy. My high school had 75 boys try out for the freshman basketball team (out of about 100 boys in my class).

Between UC, Xavier, Miami (winningest MAC program), and Dayton, plus various displaced IU and UK fans, it was college-hoops crazy. The Cincinnati-Xavier game was one of the only days a year that my grade school let us have an out-of-uniform day.

Not as much any more though. I'm not sure what changed. Football is probably ahead of basketball in the Cincy region nowadays.

Its still big here, just not quite as much at it formerly was. Miami University does not move the meter at all anymore-- at least not since the turn of the century after Wally Szcerbiak left Oxford. Northern Kentucky University actually has been more successful and gets much more coverage in Greater Cincinnati than Miami basketball and more than doubles their attendance on a nightly basis.

The big issue with basketball in the city was the whole Huggins fiasco, UC underachieving in the NCAAT under both Huggins and Cronin after the turn of the century, and UC eventually getting relegated to the AAC, losing a major rivalry game with Louisville. Thinking this out even further, the whole concept of sports in this town has made the Cincinnati sports fans very jaded---- Reds, Bengals, Bearcats, Musketeers--- the casual fan is very angry, and they have taken the position that they are not going to fully invest until teams show them they are going to actually win something.
03-15-2021 06:01 PM
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JSchmack Offline
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Post: #49
RE: When does a school lose "blueblood" status?
I think that Indiana is at a cross-roads. They need to understand the reality of modern college athletics and manage their expectations.

Towards the end of the Bob Knight era, they would fail to get out of the first weekend of the NCAA Tournament and everyone was asking "Does Knight's Old School Approach still work?" And I think that is the wrong question. The nature of college basketball has changed. There are about 80 strong programs that play basketball at a high level. 30 years ago, they were spread out over 15+ conferences. Now they're in a total of 9 conferences. All those conferences have expanded their conference schedules for more games on their TV networks.

Indiana used to schedule 7 games against "mid-major" programs, buy games at home. Now they have a tournament, Butler, the ACC Challenge, 20 Big Ten games, B10 tourney. They scheduled TWO guarantee games this year out of 27 games.


Back in the day, Indiana was Top 10 in attendance, which meant they had Top 10 basketball revenue when all the revenue came from ticket sales. They were winning 75% of their games or more, and were a Blue Blood. But since the 1990s, college sports became an entertainment business. It doesn't matter than Indiana sells 16,500 tickets per game and Penn State 7,000. Both IU and PSU get the same check from BTN, CBS, ESPN and FOX every year.

That TV money has elevated 60+ programs from less than Blue Blood status to capable of making Final Fours. Baylor, Va Tech, Colorado, Rutgers... used to be walkover programs in lesser leagues; and now they're ranked BCS programs. It's much harder to have insanely good basketball records year in and year out.

That's why UNC, Louisville, Kansas, Duke, Kentucky have down years. Why Kansas went from averaging 5 losses a year to averaging 7 or 8 a year since the Big 12 reconfiguration.

And that's why, generally speaking, Indiana has been a .575 program for the last 24 years; under 6 different head coaches.

Bob Knight's last 6 years, and Mike Davis, and Tom Crean, and Archie Milller... they are all in the .575 ballpark. Indiana needs to accept that they're a .575 program trying to be a .625 program; but no one is going to come in and match Bob Knight's .730 career record over decades. You just can't do it in a P5 conference anymore.
03-15-2021 06:04 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #50
RE: When does a school lose "blueblood" status?
(03-15-2021 05:03 PM)OscarWildeCat Wrote:  This article suggests criteria to qualify for and retain status as a basketball blue blood. The author concludes there are six blue blood programs:

Duke
UNC
Kansas
Kentucky
Indiana
UCLA

Yep, those are the blue bloods.

07-coffee3
03-15-2021 06:15 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #51
RE: When does a school lose "blueblood" status?
(03-15-2021 06:15 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(03-15-2021 05:03 PM)OscarWildeCat Wrote:  This article suggests criteria to qualify for and retain status as a basketball blue blood. The author concludes there are six blue blood programs:

Duke
UNC
Kansas
Kentucky
Indiana
UCLA

Yep, those are the blue bloods.

07-coffee3

I somehow don't believe that the term "blueblood" will survive wokeness. It's kind of anathema to their ranks. Maybe you should start thinking of another. I'll tender HPBP (Historically Privileged Basketball Programs). 07-coffee3
03-15-2021 06:43 PM
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Wahoowa84 Offline
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Post: #52
RE: When does a school lose "blueblood" status?
(03-15-2021 06:43 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(03-15-2021 06:15 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(03-15-2021 05:03 PM)OscarWildeCat Wrote:  This article suggests criteria to qualify for and retain status as a basketball blue blood. The author concludes there are six blue blood programs:

Duke
UNC
Kansas
Kentucky
Indiana
UCLA

Yep, those are the blue bloods.

07-coffee3

I somehow don't believe that the term "blueblood" will survive wokeness. It's kind of anathema to their ranks. Maybe you should start thinking of another. I'll tender HPBP (Historically Privileged Basketball Programs). 07-coffee3

The term “blue bloods” should survive wokeness. But our generation will be ridiculed for believing that inbreeding (the source of paled skinned gentry whose veins with blue blood are visible) is a positive trait. It’s crazy to believe that inbreeding of royalty was once seen as advantageous.
03-15-2021 07:08 PM
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JSchmack Offline
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Post: #53
RE: When does a school lose "blueblood" status?
OT (sorry) but it's crazier to me that in this wokeness of equality and inclusion, the concept of English Royalty just remains tradition.

How do you have the Equality and Human Rights Commission trying to lead social justice initiatives and promote the idea that everyone is equal to one another as a citizen...

... while at the same time the government pays for Buckingham Palace and the royal family because they're just better than you. Bow to the Queen ?
03-15-2021 07:19 PM
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JRsec Offline
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RE: When does a school lose "blueblood" status?
(03-15-2021 07:08 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  
(03-15-2021 06:43 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(03-15-2021 06:15 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(03-15-2021 05:03 PM)OscarWildeCat Wrote:  This article suggests criteria to qualify for and retain status as a basketball blue blood. The author concludes there are six blue blood programs:

Duke
UNC
Kansas
Kentucky
Indiana
UCLA

Yep, those are the blue bloods.

07-coffee3

I somehow don't believe that the term "blueblood" will survive wokeness. It's kind of anathema to their ranks. Maybe you should start thinking of another. I'll tender HPBP (Historically Privileged Basketball Programs). 07-coffee3

The term “blue bloods” should survive wokeness. But our generation will be ridiculed for believing that inbreeding (the source of paled skinned gentry whose veins with blue blood are visible) is a positive trait. It’s crazy to believe that inbreeding of royalty was once seen as advantageous.

Uh, it had more to do with no outside work. Pale skin was the signature of royalty and nobility. Hence the denigration of "red neck". Marrying your cousins (inbreeding) led more to insanity, and retardation than to the pale pallor. Look at Queen Elizabeth's family and the hidden mentally impaired in the lineage. It is one reason royals were cleared to marry commoners. I chalk it up to the same vein of thought (pun intended) that doomed Roman Emperor's and their nobility to madness, only in the case of Rome it was more the lead plates and drinking cups they used for eating.

That said back to sports, digression over.
(This post was last modified: 03-15-2021 07:28 PM by JRsec.)
03-15-2021 07:25 PM
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Post: #55
RE: When does a school lose "blueblood" status?
(03-15-2021 05:32 PM)TUowl06 Wrote:  
(03-15-2021 04:25 PM)Hokie Mark Wrote:  Can a team lose blueblood status? Yes, I think so, but... it takes time, possibly just as long to lose it as it does to gain it (i.e. many decades of failure vs. many decades of success).

Has Nebraska football lost its blue-bloodedness? Not yet, but it's definitely fading.
The same could be said for Indiana basketball.

OTOH, I don't think any ACC football team has achieved blueblood status yet, either. Miami and FSU were both on that path until around 2005. FSU teased us all with a rebirth in 2011-14. Miami had that one 10-win season under Mark Richt. Clemson has the multiple championships, which is one of the marks of a blueblood, but needs to maintain excellence to go from "elite" (now) to "blueblood".

JMO, though.

Miami is a VERY interesting case simply because of how much of an impact they had on the sport both on and off the field. 30 years later and the 1980's Hurricanes are still arguably the most transcendent era in the history of college football. Notre Dame in the 1920's maybe the other?

The fact that Miami won a national title under 4 different head coaches is rather unique as well. It also points to a more prominent "program presence" than say Florida State.....

I'm not saying "The U" is a blue blood. Just they have perhaps the most unique situation in all of college football.

Growing up the college football blue bloods were Notre Dame, Michigan, Alabama, USC, Texas, Nebraska, Ohio State and Oklahoma.

Penn State, Auburn, UCLA, Miami, Florida State, Pitt, Washington, Michigan State, Texas A&M etc were in the next tier....

In football its more about the 70,000+ fan a game behemoths that are the foundation of the sport. When they play, the entire state is watching.

They'll get even when down a fair share of 4 star recruits. G5 programs can only attract 4 star guys if they get lucky.

Same principal applies in basketball. What programs will always get big time recruits regardless of coach? I'd put Syracuse and Louisville in that category. Illinois seems like it has to be up there. Ohio State and Michigan? Texas and Oklahoma?

What has changed with the P is the ceilings are much higher for programs like Florida State or Texas Tech than before. They used to max out at a Sweet 16 and now could hold down legit Top 20 programs.
03-15-2021 07:40 PM
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Post: #56
RE: When does a school lose "blueblood" status?
At Illinois, I'm just glad to be back in the (men's) basketball conversation. You realize this is Illinois's first NCAA Tournament since 2013? Big time recruits at Illinois? Maybe now but we haven't even gotten close to any decent recruits coming to Champaign since the 2005 team. Bruce Weber could coach the 2005 team (a lot of people could) but he couldn't recruit. Once Dee Brown and Deron Williams left, Illinois was at best a first weekend NCAA Tournament team. Then came the John Groce era. Hopefully Illinois can build on this season and we can continue to get players as talented as Dosunmu and Cockburn every year (or at least half as talented as them, they might be once in a generation players).
03-15-2021 07:54 PM
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usffan Offline
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Post: #57
RE: When does a school lose "blueblood" status?
Here's my direct answer:



USFFan
03-15-2021 08:04 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #58
RE: When does a school lose "blueblood" status?
(03-15-2021 05:43 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(03-15-2021 05:20 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  There are some cities and states in which basketball is a "religion" of sorts. Often, these cities and states offer populations with a modest diversity of people. And the reason? In short, the larger and more diverse a city's or state's population, the less any one cultural element — in this case basketball — can be overwhelmingly popular.

So on that theme, and if I might show my homerism/bias toward two athletic programs I follow with passion ...

Basketball — high school, college and pro — is a religion in the state of Indiana and in the city Memphis. And that reason, perhaps more than any other, is why IU Hoosier and UofM Tiger basketball — even when down — in theory, can charge back quickly.

And yes, there are other examples: the states of Kentucky and North Carolina and the cities of Louisville, D.C., Chicago and Philly.

Some of you might add other examples.

The state of Kansas. Without a doubt.

Cincinnati (at the border of Indiana & Kentucky) used to be basketball-crazy. My high school had 75 boys try out for the freshman basketball team (out of about 100 boys in my class).

Between UC, Xavier, Miami (winningest MAC program), and Dayton, plus various displaced IU and UK fans, it was college-hoops crazy. The Cincinnati-Xavier game was one of the only days a year that my grade school let us have an out-of-uniform day.

Not as much any more though. I'm not sure what changed. Football is probably ahead of basketball in the Cincy region nowadays.

No doubt, Kansans love their college hoops — as Kansas, Kansas State and Wichita are extremely well supported. But are the citizens of Kansas passionate about high school and pro basketball? Maybe. I would not know. But I know that in Memphis and in Indiana, high school, college and pro hoops ... all three are big.

I agree with you about Cincinnati as a big college hoops town. Not sure about high school and NBA interest in the Queen City. To have two top-notch programs like UC and Xavier ... huge. And, as you note, Dayton is nearby.
03-15-2021 08:15 PM
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Stugray2 Offline
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Post: #59
RE: When does a school lose "blueblood" status?
Arizona and not UCLA has carried the Pac-12 water until the recent scandals.
03-15-2021 08:19 PM
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adcorbett Offline
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Post: #60
RE: When does a school lose "blueblood" status?
(03-15-2021 11:37 AM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(03-15-2021 11:15 AM)usffan Wrote:  With the news that Indiana has "parted ways" with Archie Miller and hearing somebody say that "Indiana is a blueblood that should regularly be winning B1G titles," it struck me that schools some of us (especially those of us who are longer in the tooth) think of as bluebloods probably aren't there any more.

For example, is Nebraska really a football blueblood any more? I mean sure, they've historically been among the most successful schools with 5 national titles, but the last was in 1997, meaning that there are 30 year olds who have no real memory of the Huskers winning a title like that. They've been in the B1G for a decade and haven't even won a conference title once.

Which brings me to Indiana basketball. They last won a title in 1987 with Bobby Knight as their coach and Steve Alford & Keith Smart as the backcourt. That's literally 1/3 of a century ago, and in the intervening years they've made 1 Final Four that was almost 20 years ago. Is Indiana really a blueblood in basketball any more?

USFFan

You don't lose blue blood status. The very definition of "blue blood" is specifically that the earning of money (or in this case, championships) occurred in the LONG past. The fact that Nebraska and Indiana won championships a LONG time ago is what makes them blue bloods in the first place. That's the point!

The Rockefellers are blue bloods. Jeff Bezos, Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg are NOT blue bloods, despite them being significantly more wealthy than the all of the Rockefeller descendants combined at this point. The fact that the Rockefeller descendants haven't really built anything new in generations (at least on the scale of the aforementioned billionaires) is irrelevant to their blue blood status: they will ALWAYS be blue bloods.

We seem to get into this argument all of the time on this forum. Recent accomplishments (or lack thereof), by *definition*, have absolutely zero to do with *blue blood* status.

I think the problem is that too many people conflate "blue blood" with "sustained greatness/excellence". They might be highly correlated, but they are NOT one and the same same.

Over the last decade or so I’ve agreed with about everything you’ve posted. This I don’t. Blue bloods have a shelf life. In all sports. Look at the browns, the bears, the white Sox, and for a long time even the warriors. New blood like the cowboys, patriots, and 49ers replaces them. Army and navy? Florida state and Florida have their crowns. CCNY? Its Duke now (who is not old money in this sport). We can debate their level of blue blood, but even your example of the Rockefeller’s doesn’t hold: their great grandkids couldn’t even get a reality show right now. The Walton’s replaced them. Even the royal family, the very definition of blue bloods, is even degraded now.

I’m not saying Indiana, or Nebraska - the examples given - have lost blue blood status, becuase that’s up for debate. But old money doesn’t hold the prestige in any walk of life as it does even 30 years ago.
(This post was last modified: 03-15-2021 08:48 PM by adcorbett.)
03-15-2021 08:46 PM
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