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WRCisforgotten79 Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Karlgaard / AD Thread
(04-20-2021 07:36 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  You're joking, right? Seriously. As much as I love college sports there is no way success in athletics is or should be "a critical part" of Rice's mission....and I guarantee you it's not part of Stanford's, Northwestern's or Vandy's mission either. Let's get real here.

Perhaps "a critical part" is a bit hyperbolic, but a statement such as "a desire for excellence in all areas" is weak sauce. There should be an affirmative statement regarding specific steps Rice intends to follow as a commitment to ensuring that Rice competes at the highest level in athletics, in the same way that it does academically.
04-20-2021 07:43 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #62
RE: Karlgaard / AD Thread
(04-20-2021 07:36 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  You're joking, right? Seriously. As much as I love college sports there is no way success in athletics is or should be "a critical part" of Rice's mission....and I guarantee you it's not part of Stanford's, Northwestern's or Vandy's mission either. Let's get real here.

Well, "critical part" or not, success or failure in athletics is quite clearly the most visible part of Rice's mission to the general public. How important that is may clearly be debatable. And I guarantee you that it is a part that Stanford, Northwestern, Vandy, and Duke take more seriously than Rice does.
04-20-2021 07:50 AM
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Owl 69/70/75 Online
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Post: #63
RE: Karlgaard / AD Thread
(04-20-2021 07:43 AM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  There should be an affirmative statement regarding specific steps Rice intends to follow as a commitment to ensuring that Rice competes at the highest level in athletics, in the same way that it does academically.

But who drafts that statement? The president has a number of things on his plate, and the BOT members additionally have day jobs. Expecting either to come up with a vision for Rice athletics and a plan to achieve that vision is not accepting reality.

Suppose the Board and Leebron told JK to come up with such an affirmative statement, and more importantly a plan to realize that goal. Do you think he'd be up to the task?
04-20-2021 07:54 AM
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waltgreenberg Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Karlgaard / AD Thread
(04-20-2021 07:50 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-20-2021 07:36 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  You're joking, right? Seriously. As much as I love college sports there is no way success in athletics is or should be "a critical part" of Rice's mission....and I guarantee you it's not part of Stanford's, Northwestern's or Vandy's mission either. Let's get real here.

Well, "critical part" or not, success or failure in athletics is quite clearly the most visible part of Rice's mission to the general public. How important that is may clearly be debatable. And I guarantee you that it is a part that Stanford, Northwestern, Vandy, and Duke take more seriously than Rice does.

They may take it more seriously, but I very much doubt they include "success in athletics" any more strongly in their mission statement than Rice does. Stop with the hyperboles and exaggerations already.
04-20-2021 07:59 AM
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waltgreenberg Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Karlgaard / AD Thread
(04-20-2021 07:54 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-20-2021 07:43 AM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  There should be an affirmative statement regarding specific steps Rice intends to follow as a commitment to ensuring that Rice competes at the highest level in athletics, in the same way that it does academically.

But who drafts that statement? The president has a number of things on his plate, and the BOT members additionally have day jobs. Expecting either to come up with a vision for Rice athletics and a plan to achieve that vision is not accepting reality.

Suppose the Board and Leebron told JK to come up with such an affirmative statement, and more importantly a plan to realize that goal. Do you think he'd be up to the task?

Um, I believe he did, and it's in the Rice Athletics vision statement and strategic plan which has been updated multiple times since JK arrived.
04-20-2021 08:01 AM
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ExcitedOwl18 Online
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Post: #66
RE: Karlgaard / AD Thread
(04-20-2021 08:01 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  
(04-20-2021 07:54 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(04-20-2021 07:43 AM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  There should be an affirmative statement regarding specific steps Rice intends to follow as a commitment to ensuring that Rice competes at the highest level in athletics, in the same way that it does academically.

But who drafts that statement? The president has a number of things on his plate, and the BOT members additionally have day jobs. Expecting either to come up with a vision for Rice athletics and a plan to achieve that vision is not accepting reality.

Suppose the Board and Leebron told JK to come up with such an affirmative statement, and more importantly a plan to realize that goal. Do you think he'd be up to the task?

Um, I believe he did, and it's in the Rice Athletics vision statement and strategic plan which has been updated multiple times since JK arrived.

The vision statement/strategic plan has been watered down every time that it's been revised during JK's tenure.

Remember when it was top 25 rankings? Nowhere to be found anymore in the statement, and we haven't had a top 25 ranking in a men's sport since men's tennis in 2016, I believe.
04-20-2021 08:06 AM
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Ourland Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Karlgaard / AD Thread
I'm glad he's being encouraged to pursue other interests. His coaching hires in the three biggest sports have all been suspect. None of them have panned out so far, and we don't need him around if Bloomgren struggles to bowl eligibility this year. Kids are leaving our programs in droves. The gentleman who posted the on-line petition said it best. I agree that something is very wrong in the athletics department.
04-20-2021 08:55 AM
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waltgreenberg Offline
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RE: Karlgaard / AD Thread
(04-20-2021 08:55 AM)Ourland Wrote:  I'm glad he's being encouraged to pursue other interests. His coaching hires in the three biggest sports have all been suspect. None of them have panned out so far, and we don't need him around if Bloomgren struggles to bowl eligibility this year. Kids are leaving our programs in droves. The gentleman who posted the on-line petition said it best. I agree that something is very wrong in the athletics department.

Yet another gross exaggeration (if not outright falsehood). Do tell what kids are leaving our programs in droves, especially relative to other school programs?
04-20-2021 09:03 AM
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Musicowl1965 Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Karlgaard / AD Thread
(04-20-2021 07:36 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  
(04-20-2021 07:12 AM)bigowlsfan Wrote:  
(04-19-2021 10:59 PM)owl40 Wrote:  For Joe’s benefit and for Rice’s benefit, appropriate Dr. Seuss phrase here is ‘Go Joe Go’

Have said this on other threads but best thing that can happen for both sides is for Joe to find an AD job that is ‘keep the car on the road’ job vs. ‘get the car out of the ditch’ job. Rice is in the ditch, NW is on the road. Joe is a steady set of professional AD hands that would be great in this NW situation. Joe is not a change agent guy that can get the car out of the ditch. Results in the major sports speak for themselves. No additional analysis required.

Different leadership required for Rice specific situation. That is not Joe’s fault. It is Leebron and BoT’s fault for not putting right guy/gal in for the change agent job required. We all have toolboxes and different tools are required for different jobs. Joe's tools are a mismatch for this specific/dire situation.

I do wish Joe the best, hope he gets the gig and hope Leebron/BoT can find a change agent person vs. a ‘keep car on road’ person. Joe is a good man but wrong man for Rice's situation.

This is where we depart. I have seen nothing at the BOT level or within the current president that would suggest there is any desire to upgrade athletics. I believe athletic success at universities comes from top down (commitment at the top levels), not bottom up.

This is like firing the GM of the Pittsburgh Pirates because they are not winning. When you spend the least, it is tough to overcome.

In this case, for Rice, spending is but one part of the problem at the top. There is culture; there is messaging; there is commitment.

Rice brought in a brilliant academician to run their ship several years ago, and they are getting from him what his world view and capacity can generate.

Until I see written statements with some assertiveness associated with them, I think we are just bailing with a thimble a badly leaking ship. I say with assertiveness, because a unified statement by the board with pabulum ("Rice has always believed that success in athletics is a critical part of the school's mission") will be an engineered attempt to throw bread and circuses at the masses.

You're joking, right? Seriously. As much as I love college sports there is no way success in athletics is or should be "a critical part" of Rice's mission....and I guarantee you it's not part of Stanford's, Northwestern's or Vandy's mission either. Let's get real here.

I have to disagree here. If Vandy does not see athletics as "critical" why did they fire Derek Mason. I have personal knowledge of this and Vandy does not require SEC championships but they do require their sports to be competitive which translated means a better than 500 record (see fired basketball coaches, women and mens the last few years). Vandy is leaps and bounds ahead of Rice in overall student experience and athletic success (baseball primarily) but they do have SEC money to work with. Do they have the best SEC facilities, no, do they have nice facilities depends on definition of nice but, in baseball, they are at least as nice. Reckling is a nicer field but Vandy has a new baseball training facility that makes the "Rice Barn" look like a shack. So to say that athletics is not a "critical" part of the overall student experience at Vandy (in particular) is not accurate. The overall experience at Vandy, Nashville, top notch academics, conf affilliation, winning program (baseball) attracts top talent athletically and academically. Rice was this program in early 2000's but sadly it is not anymore. Can they get back yes, but it will take strong leadership and a massive committment from the administration which I do not see in the current leadership.
04-20-2021 09:15 AM
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Post: #70
RE: Karlgaard / AD Thread
Where would Vandy be without being a member of the SEC and the money it gets from it? Besides baseball what sustained quality has Vandy had in FB and MBB. Vandy is Rice in the SWC and would be Rice in CUSA if they were forced out or dropped out of the SEC.
04-20-2021 09:30 AM
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bigowlsfan Offline
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RE: Karlgaard / AD Thread
(04-20-2021 07:36 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  
(04-20-2021 07:12 AM)bigowlsfan Wrote:  
(04-19-2021 10:59 PM)owl40 Wrote:  For Joe’s benefit and for Rice’s benefit, appropriate Dr. Seuss phrase here is ‘Go Joe Go’

Have said this on other threads but best thing that can happen for both sides is for Joe to find an AD job that is ‘keep the car on the road’ job vs. ‘get the car out of the ditch’ job. Rice is in the ditch, NW is on the road. Joe is a steady set of professional AD hands that would be great in this NW situation. Joe is not a change agent guy that can get the car out of the ditch. Results in the major sports speak for themselves. No additional analysis required.

Different leadership required for Rice specific situation. That is not Joe’s fault. It is Leebron and BoT’s fault for not putting right guy/gal in for the change agent job required. We all have toolboxes and different tools are required for different jobs. Joe's tools are a mismatch for this specific/dire situation.

I do wish Joe the best, hope he gets the gig and hope Leebron/BoT can find a change agent person vs. a ‘keep car on road’ person. Joe is a good man but wrong man for Rice's situation.

This is where we depart. I have seen nothing at the BOT level or within the current president that would suggest there is any desire to upgrade athletics. I believe athletic success at universities comes from top down (commitment at the top levels), not bottom up.

This is like firing the GM of the Pittsburgh Pirates because they are not winning. When you spend the least, it is tough to overcome.

In this case, for Rice, spending is but one part of the problem at the top. There is culture; there is messaging; there is commitment.

Rice brought in a brilliant academician to run their ship several years ago, and they are getting from him what his world view and capacity can generate.

Until I see written statements with some assertiveness associated with them, I think we are just bailing with a thimble a badly leaking ship. I say with assertiveness, because a unified statement by the board with pabulum ("Rice has always believed that success in athletics is a critical part of the school's mission") will be an engineered attempt to throw bread and circuses at the masses.

You're joking, right? Seriously. As much as I love college sports there is no way success in athletics is or should be "a critical part" of Rice's mission....and I guarantee you it's not part of Stanford's, Northwestern's or Vandy's mission either. Let's get real here.

No, I am not joking, and like it or not, there are very few forums where Rice students put apparel on with the name of their school on the apparel, and appear on television. Appearing to look unskilled in that forum only hurts the public brand. You know full well that Duke's brand has been materially enhanced because kids who go to school there for one semester and then leave for the NBA, wear a shirt with Duke on it for that one semester.

I am surprised you did not realize this.
04-20-2021 09:42 AM
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Musicowl1965 Offline
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RE: Karlgaard / AD Thread
(04-20-2021 09:30 AM)Tiki Owl Wrote:  Where would Vandy be without being a member of the SEC and the money it gets from it? Besides baseball what sustained quality has Vandy had in FB and MBB. Vandy is Rice in the SWC and would be Rice in CUSA if they were forced out or dropped out of the SEC.

Agree on SEC money but I know, again, from personal experience, that the Vandy Chancellor has made success in athletics a priority. Again, not necessarily winning FB titles but winning records etc. I don't believe we can say the same for Rice admin based on product.
04-20-2021 10:46 AM
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temchugh Offline
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Post: #73
RE: Karlgaard / AD Thread
(04-20-2021 10:46 AM)Musicowl1965 Wrote:  
(04-20-2021 09:30 AM)Tiki Owl Wrote:  Where would Vandy be without being a member of the SEC and the money it gets from it? Besides baseball what sustained quality has Vandy had in FB and MBB. Vandy is Rice in the SWC and would be Rice in CUSA if they were forced out or dropped out of the SEC.

Agree on SEC money but I know, again, from personal experience, that the Vandy Chancellor has made success in athletics a priority. Again, not necessarily winning FB titles but winning records etc. I don't believe we can say the same for Rice admin based on product.

Vanderbilt football has had a winning record in 3 of the last 30 seasons.
04-20-2021 01:37 PM
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RE: Karlgaard / AD Thread
I actually think 'critical part' is, well, critical.

I think Rice like most Universities recognizes the value of athletics in creating well-rounded graduates/people. It is not the only contributor, but it clearly differentiates us from 'online' universities. It is in my mind, as important as arts and many other student activities, and because of the size of the 'business' behind it, arguably vastly more important than most. Why is dance considered 'academic' but gymnastics is not? Football is as artistic to those who appreciate it as ANY other artform... and more accessible to most.

I think the difference is that most schools do it because it is profitable, to the EXCLUSION of its academic purposes, and RIce could fulfill what McKinsey told us to do... and be seen as LEADERS in 'doing it right'.

If we don't embrace the mind/body aspect of athletics, accept it as an art form without selling out to the business of it... then we are failing our founding purpose, our charge by McKinsey, and our unique role as a highly academic institution that challenges to exceed in EVERY (major) aspect... and not just a few.

Its not an us/them... its a 'we'.
04-20-2021 01:42 PM
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RE: Karlgaard / AD Thread
(04-20-2021 01:37 PM)temchugh Wrote:  Vanderbilt football has had a winning record in 3 of the last 30 seasons.

Four if you count winning their bowl game*: 1982 (8-4), 2008 (7-6)*, 2012 (9-4) & 2013 (9-4).

And y'all know who was offensive coordinator for that 1982 team ... and two years later was named Rice's head football coach & AD.
(This post was last modified: 04-20-2021 01:57 PM by Almadenmike.)
04-20-2021 01:56 PM
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bigowlsfan Offline
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Post: #76
RE: Karlgaard / AD Thread
(04-20-2021 01:42 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  I actually think 'critical part' is, well, critical.

I think Rice like most Universities recognizes the value of athletics in creating well-rounded graduates/people. It is not the only contributor, but it clearly differentiates us from 'online' universities. It is in my mind, as important as arts and many other student activities, and because of the size of the 'business' behind it, arguably vastly more important than most. Why is dance considered 'academic' but gymnastics is not? Football is as artistic to those who appreciate it as ANY other artform... and more accessible to most.

I think the difference is that most schools do it because it is profitable, to the EXCLUSION of its academic purposes, and RIce could fulfill what McKinsey told us to do... and be seen as LEADERS in 'doing it right'.

If we don't embrace the mind/body aspect of athletics, accept it as an art form without selling out to the business of it... then we are failing our founding purpose, our charge by McKinsey, and our unique role as a highly academic institution that challenges to exceed in EVERY (major) aspect... and not just a few.

Its not an us/them... its a 'we'.

Very well said.

Another thing that occurs to me, because Rice has such a small student body, relative to many other schools (P5), we have a much higher percentage of students who play college athletics. On that basis, it is a much bigger deal to our student body to be competitive and to provide a good experience. Our brothers in Austin have 52,000 students enrolled (all schools) this year-does Rice have 5200?
04-20-2021 02:05 PM
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Musicowl1965 Offline
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Post: #77
RE: Karlgaard / AD Thread
(04-20-2021 01:37 PM)temchugh Wrote:  
(04-20-2021 10:46 AM)Musicowl1965 Wrote:  
(04-20-2021 09:30 AM)Tiki Owl Wrote:  Where would Vandy be without being a member of the SEC and the money it gets from it? Besides baseball what sustained quality has Vandy had in FB and MBB. Vandy is Rice in the SWC and would be Rice in CUSA if they were forced out or dropped out of the SEC.

Agree on SEC money but I know, again, from personal experience, that the Vandy Chancellor has made success in athletics a priority. Again, not necessarily winning FB titles but winning records etc. I don't believe we can say the same for Rice admin based on product.

Vanderbilt football has had a winning record in 3 of the last 30 seasons.

Ok...point taken but way better competition than CUSA! Let's stick with baseball!!! FYI, what has Rice FB record been over same time period in a less than P5 conference. I'm sure there is someone on this board that can write a program to determine the CUSA W/L correction factor. Bet it's not much better.

So, do you think the money is what makes the difference or the commitment. I say there is way more commitment to athletics at Vandy than Rice. Prove to me where I'm wrong. Rice has the funds just chooses to ignore sports IMO.
04-20-2021 02:25 PM
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Post: #78
RE: Karlgaard / AD Thread
(04-20-2021 09:03 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  
(04-20-2021 08:55 AM)Ourland Wrote:  I'm glad he's being encouraged to pursue other interests. His coaching hires in the three biggest sports have all been suspect. None of them have panned out so far, and we don't need him around if Bloomgren struggles to bowl eligibility this year. Kids are leaving our programs in droves. The gentleman who posted the on-line petition said it best. I agree that something is very wrong in the athletics department.

Yet another gross exaggeration (if not outright falsehood). Do tell what kids are leaving our programs in droves, especially relative to other school programs?

We lost five when Rhoades left as basketball coach, and we continue to lose our best two players at the end of almost every season. The same is true in football. If Rice were a great place to be an athlete, these kids would be staying, even the graduate transfers.

I would expect there to be more turnover at places that can't provide nearly as good an education as Rice, but that isn't the case. The education is outstanding, so there must be something very wrong with the athletics experience on campus.
04-20-2021 02:27 PM
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Post: #79
RE: Karlgaard / AD Thread
(04-20-2021 02:27 PM)Ourland Wrote:  
(04-20-2021 09:03 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  
(04-20-2021 08:55 AM)Ourland Wrote:  I'm glad he's being encouraged to pursue other interests. His coaching hires in the three biggest sports have all been suspect. None of them have panned out so far, and we don't need him around if Bloomgren struggles to bowl eligibility this year. Kids are leaving our programs in droves. The gentleman who posted the on-line petition said it best. I agree that something is very wrong in the athletics department.

Yet another gross exaggeration (if not outright falsehood). Do tell what kids are leaving our programs in droves, especially relative to other school programs?

We lost five when Rhoades left as basketball coach, and we continue to lose our best two players at the end of almost every season. The same is true in football. If Rice were a great place to be an athlete, these kids would be staying, even the graduate transfers.

I would expect there to be more turnover at places that can't provide nearly as good an education as Rice, but that isn't the case. The education is outstanding, so there must be something very wrong with the athletics experience on campus.

This is a good point... though I understand what Walt is saying... I'll try and say it differently

The ability to transfer creates an opportunity to address whatever shortcomings your initial choice had... like we can offer a highly valued degree to someone who chose athletics over academics initially.... or we can offer a marginally higher level of competition to someone who chose the latter (like a Harvard grad transfer)

Not all transfers are the same... so looking at 'numbers' can be highly misleading.

What I'd like to know is how many of our starters we are losing (they are upgrading athletically) vs how many we are getting (they are upgrading academically, and MAYBE also athletically). Getting a Harvard starting transfer doesn't say as much about our football prospects as getting a Baylor or Tech starting transfer (they started there).... and getting a Kilgore transfer could mean anything.
04-20-2021 02:52 PM
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RE: Karlgaard / AD Thread
(04-20-2021 02:27 PM)Ourland Wrote:  
(04-20-2021 09:03 AM)waltgreenberg Wrote:  
(04-20-2021 08:55 AM)Ourland Wrote:  I'm glad he's being encouraged to pursue other interests. His coaching hires in the three biggest sports have all been suspect. None of them have panned out so far, and we don't need him around if Bloomgren struggles to bowl eligibility this year. Kids are leaving our programs in droves. The gentleman who posted the on-line petition said it best. I agree that something is very wrong in the athletics department.

Yet another gross exaggeration (if not outright falsehood). Do tell what kids are leaving our programs in droves, especially relative to other school programs?

We lost five when Rhoades left as basketball coach, and we continue to lose our best two players at the end of almost every season. The same is true in football. If Rice were a great place to be an athlete, these kids would be staying, even the graduate transfers.

I would expect there to be more turnover at places that can't provide nearly as good an education as Rice, but that isn't the case. The education is outstanding, so there must be something very wrong with the athletics experience on campus.

We do NOT lose our best players in football almost every season. Stop the B.S. As for basketball, we don't lose more than other G5 programs. Unfortunately, thanks to the NCAA, this is the sad state of college basketball. In baseball, we've lost only a handful of players the past 4 - 5 years, despite the sad decline in the program, and every single one of those was do to either playing time or academics. What T&F guys have left the program "in droves"? What women in any of our sports have left the program "in droves"?
04-20-2021 05:09 PM
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