(02-27-2021 10:57 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(02-27-2021 10:47 AM)ken d Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 03:23 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 03:14 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 03:00 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I've met a good number of SEC fans over the years who would like to see the SEC "kick out" Vanderbilt — and actually think that would be a good thing.

Barring a JRsec-esque scenario (which could happen, I admit), VU is going nowhere. We're in the SEC, whether these buffoons like it or not.

Schools like Vandy and Wake Forest are never getting kicked out. Conferences have and continue to use them to circumvent Sunshine Laws. Those schools also no where all the bodies are buried. Frankly I maintain nobody in the P5 is ever getting kicked out.

They may not get kicked out, but if legislation makes the expense of staying too steep they may opt out. After all there will be other avenues that will open up for both academic association as well as less professional athletic ones. And for the record should a Vanderbilt bow out there's a T.C.U. waiting in the wings for those sunshine laws, and a Tulane waiting to replace Wake Forest.

Tulane? Seriously?

Tulane? They are AAU and Wake is not. They do bring a new market and Wake does not. They are looking to upgrade and Wake pretty much just holds on, kind of like Vandy. So if you need a private for the Sunshine laws, and admittedly the ACC has plenty, Tulane probably would be better for the ACC than Wake Forest from a purely business standpoint and an argument could be made for the academic swap, unless of course you are part of the North Carolina contingent which 11 current members of the ACC aren't.

And then for those not paying attention this is the offseason and I have been making posts to spur conversation so there's that. And for the most part off handed and slightly provocative posts sprinkled around have been doing that.

Oh, and not only is it the offseason, but baseball started late, basketball feels totally disjointed and the usual suspects aren't performing up to speed, and there's the biggest election hangover ever. If you haven't noticed traffic is down here and at many many other sites. People are turning off to sports and turning off to most everything except the streaming services where they've found they can avoid the news, avoid protests, and relax.

So while farfetched, if you are replacing Wake then Tulane by comparison has some merit. I would think especially for that minority of ACC fan who actually believes Texas is coming, and I am not referring to you.

Texas isn't coming, but that doesn't mean the ACC can afford to bring in any new member that doesn't improve its football cred. I have actually proposed (well, fantasized actually) that Wake Forest and Boston College be given a Notre Dame type arrangement for football, dropping the league back to 12 members in which you can play your cross division opponents every other year instead of once every six years as is the case now.

BC and Wake are not going anywhere and the ACC is not interested in adding new members at this time.

Thank you all for your continued interest in the Atlantic Coast Conference.

(02-27-2021 10:39 AM)schmolik Wrote:  A lot can happen in between now and 2037. Right now I see the Florida pecking order as

1) Florida (and it's not even close)

2) Florida State
3) Miami
4) UCF
5) USF

USF is well ahead of UCF in any P5 standings. We've distinguished ourselves as being, along with UF and FSU, one of the three best public universities in the state.

USF will get a P5 invite before UCF.

(02-27-2021 12:16 PM)esayem Wrote:  BC and Wake are not going anywhere and the ACC is not interested in adding new members at this time.

Thank you all for your continued interest in the Atlantic Coast Conference.

Thus, the "fantasized" part. From the ACC's perspective, there really isn't anything that they actually could do in realignment that would improve their football standing. They will likely be the "5" in P5 for some time to come.

(02-27-2021 12:38 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(02-27-2021 12:16 PM)esayem Wrote:  BC and Wake are not going anywhere and the ACC is not interested in adding new members at this time.

Thank you all for your continued interest in the Atlantic Coast Conference.

Thus, the "fantasized" part. From the ACC's perspective, there really isn't anything that they actually could do in realignment that would improve their football standing. They will likely be the "5" in P5 for some time to come.

As long as Clemson keeps making the playoffs and winning the national title every few years, the ACC will continue to get a free pass on its overall football weakness. The playoffs suck up so much of the public and press oxygen.

See "schmolik's" response below.

(02-27-2021 12:38 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(02-27-2021 12:16 PM)esayem Wrote:  BC and Wake are not going anywhere and the ACC is not interested in adding new members at this time.

Thank you all for your continued interest in the Atlantic Coast Conference.

Thus, the "fantasized" part. From the ACC's perspective, there really isn't anything that they actually could do in realignment that would improve their football standing. They will likely be the "5" in P5 for some time to come.

No that would be the Pathetic 12. At least the ACC gets a team in the CFP every year. The Pac-12 hasn't had one in the CFP the last four years running.

(02-27-2021 09:33 AM)esayem Wrote:  How much Florida and FSU gear do you see on the campuses of UCF and USF? Genuinely curious.

While this was something you'd commonly see in the 1980's when USF didn't have a football team and UCF's team was just getting started, it's pretty rare to see people rocking anything other than the official school gear.

Quote:I can’t imagine an SEC team in a pro stadium.

You don't have to imagine it at all...



Happens every year. The sun still rises in the east the next day.

Other than Vanderbilt (who had a football team for nearly a century before the Titans came into existence), there's not an SEC campus within 100 miles of a pro stadium, so that's not really an option anyway. If the SEC had invited Miami (which isn't as far fetched as you might have thought), they sure would be playing every home game in a pro stadium.

USFFan

(02-27-2021 08:47 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 07:15 PM)usffan Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 05:23 PM)JHS55 Wrote:  

(02-24-2021 01:54 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  The P5 will rue the day if they split off from the rest of the pack. Yes individually the G5/Indy schools don’t have the fan bases of the elites in the P5, but collectively it is a substantial number of eyeballs that will turn away from your new NFL “D” League.

To me it is just a bunch of middle aged, old white guys complaining about the good old days when the only got to watch a hand full of schools on TV each week and there were only 16 bowl games. I know of very few other industries that think contraction is the way to go.

i agree that the g5 has enough eyeball power right now to command a very good TV contract “ enough to survive long enough “ and challenge the autonomous conferences especially if they stay with olympic ice skating judges they call a committee
i want the G5 to act now and separate before all hell breaks lose like jrsec was saying
the potential for pay for play is likely and could change everything as we have it

You've been pushing that for a long time. I am 100% confident that USF and UCF, for example, will do anything it takes to stay in the same classification as Florida and FSU, and will fight any attempt to be relegated to a second class citizenship in any formal way, even if they're informally already there.

We already are second-class citizens in several formal ways - G5 status within the CFP contract and non-autonomy status within the NCAA.

One other nit - while UCF has never been 'relegated' to that status because they were never "first class" citizens to begin with, we were, as a result of the collapse of the AQ Big East in 2011-2012.

What I meant was, neither school will willingly enter a secondary "division" (if you will), even if it's the same in name only. No way either signs up for the "G5 postseason" thing that JH and others seem so thirsty to jump at.

USFFan

(02-27-2021 12:38 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(02-27-2021 12:16 PM)esayem Wrote:  BC and Wake are not going anywhere and the ACC is not interested in adding new members at this time.

Thank you all for your continued interest in the Atlantic Coast Conference.

Thus, the "fantasized" part. From the ACC's perspective, there really isn't anything that they actually could do in realignment that would improve their football standing. They will likely be the "5" in P5 for some time to come.

The relative football strength of the P5 conferences fluctuate. Per Massey, the ACC had the top conference rating of the P5 in 2017; the ACC had the 2nd highest rating in 2016.

(02-27-2021 12:45 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-27-2021 12:38 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(02-27-2021 12:16 PM)esayem Wrote:  BC and Wake are not going anywhere and the ACC is not interested in adding new members at this time.

Thank you all for your continued interest in the Atlantic Coast Conference.

Thus, the "fantasized" part. From the ACC's perspective, there really isn't anything that they actually could do in realignment that would improve their football standing. They will likely be the "5" in P5 for some time to come.

As long as Clemson keeps making the playoffs and winning the national title every few years, the ACC will continue to get a free pass on its overall football weakness. The playoffs suck up so much of the public and press oxygen.

See "schmolik's" response below.

With regards to Clemson’s impact on ACC football, most football P5 conferences have the same dynamic. Ohio State and Oklahoma are just as dominant in their respective conferences. Even in the PAC, USC’s recent downturn has made the conference irrelevant in recent CFP discussions. Only the SEC is unique...the SEC has much more depth that competes at an elite level.

What is unique in the ACC during the last few years is that a number of the traditional football schools have struggled at the same time. FSU’s fall has been huge; Virginia Tech and Miami have also been below their norms. Those teams are likely to bounce back.

(02-27-2021 03:36 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(02-27-2021 12:45 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-27-2021 12:38 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(02-27-2021 12:16 PM)esayem Wrote:  BC and Wake are not going anywhere and the ACC is not interested in adding new members at this time.

Thank you all for your continued interest in the Atlantic Coast Conference.

Thus, the "fantasized" part. From the ACC's perspective, there really isn't anything that they actually could do in realignment that would improve their football standing. They will likely be the "5" in P5 for some time to come.

As long as Clemson keeps making the playoffs and winning the national title every few years, the ACC will continue to get a free pass on its overall football weakness. The playoffs suck up so much of the public and press oxygen.

See "schmolik's" response below.

With regards Clemson’s impact on ACC football, most football P5 conferences have the same dynamic. Ohio State and Oklahoma are just as dominant in their respective conferences. Even in the PAC, USC’s recent downturn has made the conference irrelevant in recent CFP discussions. Only the SEC is unique...the SEC has much more depth that competes at an elite level.

What is unique in the ACC during the last few years is that a number of the traditional football schools have struggled at the same time. FSU’s fall has been huge; Virginia Tech and Miami have also been below their norms. Those teams are likely to bounce back.

Alabama has dominated the SEC almost as much as Clemson the ACC, Ohio State the Big Ten, and Oklahoma the Big 12.

Alabama .891 (2012-2019), 5 conference championships in 8 years
Clemson .917 (2014-2019), 5 conference championships in 6 years
Ohio State .923 (2014-2019), 4 conference championships in 6 years
Oklahoma .847 (2012-2019), 3 conference championship game wins in 3 years, 3 regular season conference championships (1 co-championship) in 5 years when there was no conference championship game

We think the SEC is more balanced but the reality is that Georgia and LSU are better than Penn State and Wisconsin and Penn State and Wisconsin are better than the ACC also rans.

It’s just so wild that 4 out of 5 Power Conferences have had 1 dominant team for so long. Sure in the past there’s been long stretches where several conferences had 2 dominant teams apiece that would trade off (PAC 10: USC/UCLA, Big 10: Mich/Ohio St, Big 8: Oklahoma/Nebraska, SWC: Texas/TAMU/Arkansas) but never 1.

About the closest thing was in the 90s when Florida St ruled the ACC and Miami did the same in the BE.

(02-26-2021 03:23 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 03:14 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 03:00 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I've met a good number of SEC fans over the years who would like to see the SEC "kick out" Vanderbilt — and actually think that would be a good thing.

Barring a JRsec-esque scenario (which could happen, I admit), VU is going nowhere. We're in the SEC, whether these buffoons like it or not.

Schools like Vandy and Wake Forest are never getting kicked out. Conferences have and continue to use them to circumvent Sunshine Laws. Those schools also no where all the bodies are buried. Frankly I maintain nobody in the P5 is ever getting kicked out.

They may not get kicked out, but if legislation makes the expense of staying too steep they may opt out. After all there will be other avenues that will open up for both academic association as well as less professional athletic ones. And for the record should a Vanderbilt bow out there's a T.C.U. waiting in the wings for those sunshine laws, and a Tulane waiting to replace Wake Forest.

JR, at one time, you said that the SEC would find a way to keep Vandy olympic sports, but boot or be have Vandy remove football. I actually like the direction of that, but would modify it somewhat and expand it to other conferences as well.

I think when NIL fully hits, I believe Vandy and a lot of other private schools will have some hard decisions to make. Do you go the Stanford route, and find a way to keep up with the big boys in football, or go the Ivy League route, and emphasize acedemics?? The Big East presents a third model: private schools focusing on olympic sports, and putting football in FCS or not even having it.

Vanderbilt could put it's football team in the Pioneer League, and keep its olympic sports in the SEC. Duke and Wake Forest could do something similar, and put their football teams in the Pioneer League as well, but keep its olympic sports in the ACC. This would free up some slots in the P5, but not change the conferences too much.

(02-27-2021 04:19 PM)schmolik Wrote:  

(02-27-2021 03:36 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(02-27-2021 12:45 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-27-2021 12:38 PM)ken d Wrote:  

(02-27-2021 12:16 PM)esayem Wrote:  BC and Wake are not going anywhere and the ACC is not interested in adding new members at this time.

Thank you all for your continued interest in the Atlantic Coast Conference.

Thus, the "fantasized" part. From the ACC's perspective, there really isn't anything that they actually could do in realignment that would improve their football standing. They will likely be the "5" in P5 for some time to come.

As long as Clemson keeps making the playoffs and winning the national title every few years, the ACC will continue to get a free pass on its overall football weakness. The playoffs suck up so much of the public and press oxygen.

See "schmolik's" response below.

With regards Clemson’s impact on ACC football, most football P5 conferences have the same dynamic. Ohio State and Oklahoma are just as dominant in their respective conferences. Even in the PAC, USC’s recent downturn has made the conference irrelevant in recent CFP discussions. Only the SEC is unique...the SEC has much more depth that competes at an elite level.

What is unique in the ACC during the last few years is that a number of the traditional football schools have struggled at the same time. FSU’s fall has been huge; Virginia Tech and Miami have also been below their norms. Those teams are likely to bounce back.

Alabama has dominated the SEC almost as much as Clemson the ACC, Ohio State the Big Ten, and Oklahoma the Big 12.

Alabama .891 (2012-2019), 5 conference championships in 8 years
Clemson .917 (2014-2019), 5 conference championships in 6 years
Ohio State .923 (2014-2019), 4 conference championships in 6 years
Oklahoma .847 (2012-2019), 3 conference championship game wins in 3 years, 3 regular season conference championships (1 co-championship) in 5 years when there was no conference championship game

We think the SEC is more balanced but the reality is that Georgia and LSU are better than Penn State and Wisconsin and Penn State and Wisconsin are better than the ACC also rans.

Well, the SEC has been a bit more balanced the last few years. I mean, Oklahoma and Clemson have each won six straight conference titles and Ohio State has won 4 straight conference titles. In contrast, Alabama has "only" won two of the last four SEC titles.

(02-27-2021 02:17 PM)usffan Wrote:  

(02-27-2021 08:47 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 07:15 PM)usffan Wrote:  

(02-26-2021 05:23 PM)JHS55 Wrote:  

(02-24-2021 01:54 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  The P5 will rue the day if they split off from the rest of the pack. Yes individually the G5/Indy schools don’t have the fan bases of the elites in the P5, but collectively it is a substantial number of eyeballs that will turn away from your new NFL “D” League.

To me it is just a bunch of middle aged, old white guys complaining about the good old days when the only got to watch a hand full of schools on TV each week and there were only 16 bowl games. I know of very few other industries that think contraction is the way to go.

i agree that the g5 has enough eyeball power right now to command a very good TV contract “ enough to survive long enough “ and challenge the autonomous conferences especially if they stay with olympic ice skating judges they call a committee
i want the G5 to act now and separate before all hell breaks lose like jrsec was saying
the potential for pay for play is likely and could change everything as we have it

You've been pushing that for a long time. I am 100% confident that USF and UCF, for example, will do anything it takes to stay in the same classification as Florida and FSU, and will fight any attempt to be relegated to a second class citizenship in any formal way, even if they're informally already there.

We already are second-class citizens in several formal ways - G5 status within the CFP contract and non-autonomy status within the NCAA.

One other nit - while UCF has never been 'relegated' to that status because they were never "first class" citizens to begin with, we were, as a result of the collapse of the AQ Big East in 2011-2012.

What I meant was, neither school will willingly enter a secondary "division" (if you will), even if it's the same in name only. No way either signs up for the "G5 postseason" thing that JH and others seem so thirsty to jump at.

USFFan

a secondary D1 division is exactly what iam thirsty for... but if it becomes a step back then NO !, that would be a disaster. i just think that america is ready for it
when all these TV contracts are renewed and we’re left out then mybe a new D1 division might be our only best option

(02-28-2021 09:42 AM)JHS55 Wrote:  A secondary D1 division is exactly what iam thirsty for... but if it becomes a step back then NO !, that would be a disaster. i just think that america is ready for it
when all these TV contracts are renewed and we’re left out then mybe a new D1 division might be our only best option

On the one hand, the G5 yearns to be free of the yoke of P5 dominance in terms of the structure of top-level college football. That implies breaking away and setting up our own thing.

The problem is that a G5 "own thing" will be regarded by everyone as a "step down", because in any P5/G5 split, the P5 organization will be regarded as the "top level" thing, while the G5 organization will be regarded as a second-tier thing. Because that's exactly what it will be, in terms of both quality on the field and brand value.

The sad truth is, G5 football doesn't have much value. And most of the little value it has is by association with the P5. So the savviest G5 advocates are trying various ways to scheme such that eventually the servant can become a master. Expanded playoffs being the preferred vehicle right now.

The best way remains what it has always been - build your fan base. Get your fans excited about the football you do play. Get 40k or more real fans in the stands. UCF and Cincy are doing the best job of that.

(02-28-2021 09:53 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-28-2021 09:42 AM)JHS55 Wrote:  A secondary D1 division is exactly what iam thirsty for... but if it becomes a step back then NO !, that would be a disaster. i just think that america is ready for it
when all these TV contracts are renewed and we’re left out then mybe a new D1 division might be our only best option

On the one hand, the G5 yearns to be free of the yoke of P5 dominance in terms of the structure of top-level college football. That implies breaking away and setting up our own thing.

The problem is that a G5 "own thing" will be regarded by everyone as a "step down", because in any P5/G5 split, the P5 organization will be regarded as the "top level" thing, while the G5 organization will be regarded as a second-tier thing. Because that's exactly what it will be, in terms of both quality on the field and brand value.

The sad truth is, G5 football doesn't have much value. And most of the little value it has is by association with the P5. So the savviest G5 advocates are trying various ways to scheme such that eventually the servant can become a master. Expanded playoffs being the preferred vehicle right now.

The best way remains what it has always been - build your fan base. Get your fans excited about the football you do play. Get 40k or more real fans in the stands. UCF and Cincy are doing the best job of that.

good points but i believe the G5 has way more value than you are suggesting and yes “ potential “ is a power point, and a vehicle to get more fans IS having a new D1 division
and i think ECU averages more fans in the stadium than any other G5

(02-28-2021 10:18 AM)JHS55 Wrote:  

(02-28-2021 09:53 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-28-2021 09:42 AM)JHS55 Wrote:  A secondary D1 division is exactly what iam thirsty for... but if it becomes a step back then NO !, that would be a disaster. i just think that america is ready for it
when all these TV contracts are renewed and we’re left out then mybe a new D1 division might be our only best option

On the one hand, the G5 yearns to be free of the yoke of P5 dominance in terms of the structure of top-level college football. That implies breaking away and setting up our own thing.

The problem is that a G5 "own thing" will be regarded by everyone as a "step down", because in any P5/G5 split, the P5 organization will be regarded as the "top level" thing, while the G5 organization will be regarded as a second-tier thing. Because that's exactly what it will be, in terms of both quality on the field and brand value.

The sad truth is, G5 football doesn't have much value. And most of the little value it has is by association with the P5. So the savviest G5 advocates are trying various ways to scheme such that eventually the servant can become a master. Expanded playoffs being the preferred vehicle right now.

The best way remains what it has always been - build your fan base. Get your fans excited about the football you do play. Get 40k or more real fans in the stands. UCF and Cincy are doing the best job of that.

good points but i believe the G5 has way more value than you are suggesting and yes “ potential “ is a power point, and a vehicle to get more fans IS having a new D1 division
and i think ECU averages more fans in the stadium than any other G5

I think ECU has fallen off attendance-wise the past decade or so. They used to boast about 50,000 in the stands, but IIRC it is now more like 25,000 fans in stands. Attendance has sunk since joining the AAC.

(02-28-2021 10:18 AM)JHS55 Wrote:  

(02-28-2021 09:53 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-28-2021 09:42 AM)JHS55 Wrote:  A secondary D1 division is exactly what iam thirsty for... but if it becomes a step back then NO !, that would be a disaster. i just think that america is ready for it
when all these TV contracts are renewed and we’re left out then mybe a new D1 division might be our only best option

On the one hand, the G5 yearns to be free of the yoke of P5 dominance in terms of the structure of top-level college football. That implies breaking away and setting up our own thing.

The problem is that a G5 "own thing" will be regarded by everyone as a "step down", because in any P5/G5 split, the P5 organization will be regarded as the "top level" thing, while the G5 organization will be regarded as a second-tier thing. Because that's exactly what it will be, in terms of both quality on the field and brand value.

The sad truth is, G5 football doesn't have much value. And most of the little value it has is by association with the P5. So the savviest G5 advocates are trying various ways to scheme such that eventually the servant can become a master. Expanded playoffs being the preferred vehicle right now.

The best way remains what it has always been - build your fan base. Get your fans excited about the football you do play. Get 40k or more real fans in the stands. UCF and Cincy are doing the best job of that.

good points but i believe the G5 has way more value than you are suggesting and yes “ potential “ is a power point, and a vehicle to get more fans IS having a new D1 division
and i think ECU averages more fans in the stadium than any other G5

Obviously, BYU is the top attendance among non-contract-bowl teams. By a long shot.
Here are others over 30k (could have missed some)
5 year average attendance 2015-2019:
BYU 57076
UCF 38104
ECU 38031
Memphis 37289
SDSU 33207
USF 33135
Cincinnati 33124
Boise 32830
Navy 32459
Army 31450

In that five-year look, ECU benefits still from 2016/2015 numbers both over 43k
3 year average attendance over 30k 2017-2019:
BYU 56093
UCF 41552
Memphis 37559
ECU 34256
USF 33914
SDSU 33227
Navy 32795
Boise 32088
Cincinnati 31646
Fresno St 31229
Army 31202

(02-28-2021 10:44 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-28-2021 10:18 AM)JHS55 Wrote:  

(02-28-2021 09:53 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(02-28-2021 09:42 AM)JHS55 Wrote:  A secondary D1 division is exactly what iam thirsty for... but if it becomes a step back then NO !, that would be a disaster. i just think that america is ready for it
when all these TV contracts are renewed and we’re left out then mybe a new D1 division might be our only best option

On the one hand, the G5 yearns to be free of the yoke of P5 dominance in terms of the structure of top-level college football. That implies breaking away and setting up our own thing.

The problem is that a G5 "own thing" will be regarded by everyone as a "step down", because in any P5/G5 split, the P5 organization will be regarded as the "top level" thing, while the G5 organization will be regarded as a second-tier thing. Because that's exactly what it will be, in terms of both quality on the field and brand value.

The sad truth is, G5 football doesn't have much value. And most of the little value it has is by association with the P5. So the savviest G5 advocates are trying various ways to scheme such that eventually the servant can become a master. Expanded playoffs being the preferred vehicle right now.

The best way remains what it has always been - build your fan base. Get your fans excited about the football you do play. Get 40k or more real fans in the stands. UCF and Cincy are doing the best job of that.

good points but i believe the G5 has way more value than you are suggesting and yes “ potential “ is a power point, and a vehicle to get more fans IS having a new D1 division
and i think ECU averages more fans in the stadium than any other G5

I think ECU has fallen off attendance-wise the past decade or so. They used to boast about 50,000 in the stands, but IIRC it is now more like 25,000 fans in stands. Attendance has sunk since joining the AAC.

In fairness to ECU, they've have had a revolving door of coaches starting with Ruffin Mcneill and ending with their current coach.