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rath v2.0 Offline
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Post: #61
RE: It’s time
If Fickell went 4-8 in year 2, you better believe people would have been asking hard questions.
 
02-22-2021 01:13 PM
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BrooklynRocket Offline
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Post: #62
RE: It’s time
Too many people are misattributing last year's team success to John Brannen's coaching and not to Tre Scott and Jarron Cumberland's playing.

Brannen inherited a top 20 roster and could barely crank out a top 50 team last year in a league with only one definitive NCAA team (just like this year).

I'll give Brannen credit for attracting talents like Harvey, Eason, and DeJulius but he gets little to no credit for how lucky he was to have Jarron return (not built for the pro game), Jaevin transfer (family ties), and Tre return (family ties prevented a surefire grad transfer). He couldn't tie down guys like Logan Johnson, Brooks, and Nsoseme who surely would've improved our team over these past two seasons.

Keith is 50/50 - Brannen deserves credit for getting him to stay but not for how he has coached him. In retrospect, Keith should've transferred to a St. John's or Seton Hall. It might not have made a difference last year for him (he probably would've gotten a waiver), but this year at one of those schools he would've been surrounded by far less schmucks on the court and he would've thrived in a more balanced role instead of having to be our pseudo-superman.

Next year - year 3 - our ceiling is looking like a top 75/borderline NIT team. Again, that's best case scenario. I'm not going to bank on Brannen "killing it" in the transfer market when he's 2.5 for 6 so far with 3 big misses and a half-miss in Vogt. He's 1.5 for 5 when you exclude Jaevin who he didn't even recruit - Jarron did, lmao.

Our floor next year is looking even lower than this year.
 
02-22-2021 01:26 PM
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Post: #63
RE: It’s time
The advance press on Brannen's players has proven to exceed the reality. There are decent transfers to be had but I just don't see Brannen recruiting players who are any better than those obtained by 30 other squads.
 
02-22-2021 01:34 PM
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robertfoshizzle Online
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Post: #64
RE: It’s time
(02-22-2021 01:26 PM)BrooklynRocket Wrote:  Too many people are misattributing last year's team success to John Brannen's coaching and not to Tre Scott and Jarron Cumberland's playing.

Brannen inherited a top 20 roster and could barely crank out a top 50 team last year in a league with only one definitive NCAA team (just like this year).

I'll give Brannen credit for attracting talents like Harvey, Eason, and DeJulius but he gets little to no credit for how lucky he was to have Jarron return (not built for the pro game), Jaevin transfer (family ties), and Tre return (family ties prevented a surefire grad transfer). He couldn't tie down guys like Logan Johnson, Brooks, and Nsoseme who surely would've improved our team over these past two seasons.

Keith is 50/50 - Brannen deserves credit for getting him to stay but not for how he has coached him. In retrospect, Keith should've transferred to a St. John's or Seton Hall. It might not have made a difference last year for him (he probably would've gotten a waiver), but this year at one of those schools he would've been surrounded by far less schmucks on the court and he would've thrived in a more balanced role instead of having to be our pseudo-superman.

Next year - year 3 - our ceiling is looking like a top 75/borderline NIT team. Again, that's best case scenario. I'm not going to bank on Brannen "killing it" in the transfer market when he's 2.5 for 6 so far with 3 big misses and a half-miss in Vogt. He's 1.5 for 5 when you exclude Jaevin who he didn't even recruit - Jarron did, lmao.

Our floor next year is looking even lower than this year.

I do not believe it was a top 20 roster as constructed by Mick. Jarron, Tre, Nysier, and Keith is a pretty nice core group. However, 3 of those 4 guys were gone after last season regardless. And the rest of the roster is playing for low- and mid-major teams right now aside from Diarra. A top 20 roster doesn't typically feature guys who transfer to Buffalo, Evansville (by way of Nebraska), Georgia State, Georgia Southern, UAB/James Madison, and St. Mary's.
 
02-22-2021 01:40 PM
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Post: #65
RE: It’s time
(02-22-2021 01:13 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  If Fickell went 4-8 in year 2, you better believe people would have been asking hard questions.

The football team was already at rock bottom when Fickell inherited it. The basketball roster had 2 seniors who could carry the program until a full rebuild was needed.

Freshman and Sophomores are all in a position where seniors should be right now. They just are not ready. This is what happens when you lose two recruiting classes and a solid senior class. To expect these players to be on the same level as teams with depth is just an apt comparison.
 
02-22-2021 01:48 PM
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BrooklynRocket Offline
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Post: #66
RE: It’s time
(02-22-2021 01:40 PM)robertfoshizzle Wrote:  
(02-22-2021 01:26 PM)BrooklynRocket Wrote:  Too many people are misattributing last year's team success to John Brannen's coaching and not to Tre Scott and Jarron Cumberland's playing.

Brannen inherited a top 20 roster and could barely crank out a top 50 team last year in a league with only one definitive NCAA team (just like this year).

I'll give Brannen credit for attracting talents like Harvey, Eason, and DeJulius but he gets little to no credit for how lucky he was to have Jarron return (not built for the pro game), Jaevin transfer (family ties), and Tre return (family ties prevented a surefire grad transfer). He couldn't tie down guys like Logan Johnson, Brooks, and Nsoseme who surely would've improved our team over these past two seasons.

Keith is 50/50 - Brannen deserves credit for getting him to stay but not for how he has coached him. In retrospect, Keith should've transferred to a St. John's or Seton Hall. It might not have made a difference last year for him (he probably would've gotten a waiver), but this year at one of those schools he would've been surrounded by far less schmucks on the court and he would've thrived in a more balanced role instead of having to be our pseudo-superman.

Next year - year 3 - our ceiling is looking like a top 75/borderline NIT team. Again, that's best case scenario. I'm not going to bank on Brannen "killing it" in the transfer market when he's 2.5 for 6 so far with 3 big misses and a half-miss in Vogt. He's 1.5 for 5 when you exclude Jaevin who he didn't even recruit - Jarron did, lmao.

Our floor next year is looking even lower than this year.

I do not believe it was a top 20 roster as constructed by Mick. Jarron, Tre, Nysier, and Keith is a pretty nice core group. However, 3 of those 4 guys were gone after last season regardless. And the rest of the roster is playing for low- and mid-major teams right now aside from Diarra. A top 20 roster doesn't typically feature guys who transfer to Buffalo, Evansville (by way of Nebraska), Georgia State, Georgia Southern, UAB/James Madison, and St. Mary's.

Hence, why I said top 20 roster (for the 19/20 season), not that he inherited a top 20 program.
 
02-22-2021 01:49 PM
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Post: #67
RE: It’s time
(02-21-2021 02:58 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(02-21-2021 02:54 PM)BrooklynRocket Wrote:  Worst coaching job I've seen by a UC coach in 20 years - Andy Kennedy included.

2010 was worse. Mick was in year 4. Roster was loaded with talent. Played well early and then just were disastrous down the stretch. That was a tournament caliber roster that ended the regularly season losing by about 30 at Georgetown and ended the season getting smoked by dayton in the NIT.

In 2011 #25 UC lost by 38 pts to #4 Notre Dame in the BE tournament.
 
02-22-2021 01:57 PM
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UCbball21 Offline
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Post: #68
RE: It’s time
WAYYYY to early to be calling for Brannen's head. Yes, this season has been an unmitigated disaster and recruiting looks bleak right now, especially with all the mid-season transfers, but Brannen gets at least another year or two to turn it around.
 
02-22-2021 02:05 PM
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Post: #69
RE: It’s time
(02-22-2021 01:57 PM)Cat-Man Wrote:  
(02-21-2021 02:58 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(02-21-2021 02:54 PM)BrooklynRocket Wrote:  Worst coaching job I've seen by a UC coach in 20 years - Andy Kennedy included.

2010 was worse. Mick was in year 4. Roster was loaded with talent. Played well early and then just were disastrous down the stretch. That was a tournament caliber roster that ended the regularly season losing by about 30 at Georgetown and ended the season getting smoked by dayton in the NIT.

In 2011 #25 UC lost by 38 pts to #4 Notre Dame in the BE tournament.

I believe the staff basically gave up on that game because they knew they were in the tournament. It was a 10 point game with 16 minutes to go and then when ND went on run Mick pulled his guys.

That team just went through a difficult end of the season that included 4 ranked teams a do or die game against Marquette on the road and a road OT win over Providence where team almost melted down and blew a big lead.
 
02-22-2021 02:11 PM
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Post: #70
RE: It’s time
(02-22-2021 02:11 PM)UCBearcatlawjd2 Wrote:  
(02-22-2021 01:57 PM)Cat-Man Wrote:  
(02-21-2021 02:58 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(02-21-2021 02:54 PM)BrooklynRocket Wrote:  Worst coaching job I've seen by a UC coach in 20 years - Andy Kennedy included.

2010 was worse. Mick was in year 4. Roster was loaded with talent. Played well early and then just were disastrous down the stretch. That was a tournament caliber roster that ended the regularly season losing by about 30 at Georgetown and ended the season getting smoked by dayton in the NIT.

In 2011 #25 UC lost by 38 pts to #4 Notre Dame in the BE tournament.

I believe the staff basically gave up on that game because they knew they were in the tournament. It was a 10 point game with 16 minutes to go and then when ND went on run Mick pulled his guys.

That team just went through a difficult end of the season that included 4 ranked teams a do or die game against Marquette on the road and a road OT win over Providence where team almost melted down and blew a big lead.

I was only able to watch the first half because of a prior commitment yesterday but the wheels were loose at the ten minute mark and it obviously never got better.

Honest question: Did any of Mick's UC teams ever beat a #6 ranked conference opponent on the road in his 13 seasons? This season's Bearcat team is very young and clearly a work in progress. Brannen can coach--he proved that at NKU. Is his experience as head coach at Northern substantially inferior to what our prior coaches brought to UC (Murray State-Cronin or Akron-Huggins)? Both had to take a big step up and did.

We shouldn't evaluate this season until it plays out. If I understand the rules this year, Houston can sit out the AAC Championship (as an NCAA lock) and guarantee the autobid to a second conference team that wins the tourney. If so, UC can play with most of the remaining teams for that spot.

I would agree that this offseason, and the season to come, we should expect to see real progress. There is talent on this roster but there are critical missing pieces to the puzzle. If he hits the transfer market hard that can be solved, fast. But unless there is something else going on that drives wholesale player departures, he's going to be back.
 
02-22-2021 03:03 PM
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bearcatmark Online
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Post: #71
RE: It’s time
(02-22-2021 01:13 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  If Fickell went 4-8 in year 2, you better believe people would have been asking hard questions.

The better football comp is probably Dantonio who inherited a great senior class but basically nothing in the classes behind. He probably underachieved in year 1 but still had success and won a bowl. In year 2 they took an enormous step back which was to be expected given the problems in Minter's last few recruiting classes and the departure of the top class.

Year 3 we saw real progress against a killer schedule. Dantonio left but the pieces were there for an incredible 3 year run to follow.

Everyone honest with themselves expected a big step back this year. I want to see what he does from here. Keep the core in place, find a few more pieces and see if he can make the kind of leap he eventually made an NKU where he really struggled early.
 
02-22-2021 03:12 PM
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uchoops Offline
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Post: #72
RE: It’s time
To be fair..Cronin quit recruiting his last 2 years..he was looking to leave...almost took UNLV job the year before he left..he left the cupboard bare
 
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02-22-2021 03:26 PM
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RE: It’s time
(02-22-2021 03:26 PM)uchoops Wrote:  To be fair..Cronin quit recruiting his last 2 years..he was looking to leave...almost took UNLV job the year before he left..he left the cupboard bare

The UNLV offer came earlier than that (at the end of 2016). However, it;'s not a bad reference point. That class which he had already recruited included Cumberland, Scott and Brooks. It was his last good recruiting class at UC. I think it's fair to say his long term commitment to UC was waning.
 
02-22-2021 03:31 PM
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rath v2.0 Offline
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RE: It’s time
I know, right? UCLA fans are going to hate how Cronin recruits.
 
02-22-2021 03:35 PM
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robertfoshizzle Online
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Post: #75
RE: It’s time
(02-22-2021 03:35 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  I know, right? UCLA fans are going to hate how Cronin recruits.

If he was recruiting guys who ended up transferring to Morgan State, Georgia Southern, UAB, Evansville, Georgia State, and Buffalo, then yeah -- I'm sure they would hate it. Cronin flopped HARD in recruiting for 2017, 2018, and 2019 (only had Samari Curtis coming in).
 
02-22-2021 03:43 PM
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Post: #76
RE: It’s time
Stop the excuses. We haven’t even seen basic coaching strategies or players development in year 2. This staff continues to bring in the wrong type of players, believes running the ball up court is a good idea, and then sits on sidelines lost when things go bad. Even with other staffs that had a hard time early in you see real coaching and a philosophy take shape.

I don’t see any of that with this staff. They way overestimated talent and underestimated how challenging it is to win at the high major level. Your not going able to just play fast and expect to win games in this league. You basically need to grind it out on defense, rebound, and be effective on offense while playing slower halfcourt basketball.

I wish I would see more than they play hard when things go well but that is about the only thing I see from this group.
 
02-22-2021 03:46 PM
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Post: #77
RE: It’s time
(02-22-2021 03:35 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  I know, right? UCLA fans are going to hate how Cronin recruits.

Who said that? How he does at UCLA is not really relevant. I liked him as a coach when he was here. I defended him many times on this board (and his style of play, and his defense first mentality). His first couple recruiting classes were really tough circumstances with too many holes to fill so I never held it against him.

His 2008, 2009 and 2010 classes were damn good. Despite that it took a couple years to really see the results of those classes, but ultimately we started our tournament run and even made a sweet 16.

2011 2012 and 2013 ended up being just ok classes (though 2012 and 2013 looked better initially, Thomas didn't become what we hoped and Lawrence was a disaster), but had enough to keep the streak alive, a lot of that on the strength of SK and Justin from the 2010 class.

He nailed three straight classes delivering a star type player in 2014, 2015 and 2016. It's no surprise when the 2014 class were seniors was his best team by a wide margin. They were loaded because he had nailed stars and found good role guys.

Recruiting at UC took a nosedive after the 2016 class, but notably that was after the UNLV interview and maybe he just was waning on UC as a long term job.

I don't care one way or the other whether he succeeds at UCLA but if he recruits at the level he did here in 2014,2015 and 2016 (or hell, higher...it's UCLA) I have no reason to believe he won't win at a high level there. He was a damn good coach.
 
(This post was last modified: 02-22-2021 03:52 PM by bearcatmark.)
02-22-2021 03:50 PM
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rath v2.0 Offline
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RE: It’s time
The ancient martial art of sarcasm is utterly lost in print.
 
02-22-2021 03:51 PM
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Post: #79
RE: It’s time
(02-22-2021 03:46 PM)UCBearcatlawjd2 Wrote:  Stop the excuses. We haven’t even seen basic coaching strategies or players development in year 2. This staff continues to bring in the wrong type of players, believes running the ball up court is a good idea, and then sits on sidelines lost when things go bad. Even with other staffs that had a hard time early in you see real coaching and a philosophy take shape.

I don’t see any of that with this staff. They way overestimated talent and underestimated how challenging it is to win at the high major level. Your not going able to just play fast and expect to win games in this league. You basically need to grind it out on defense, rebound, and be effective on offense while playing slower halfcourt basketball.

I wish I would see more than they play hard when things go well but that is about the only thing I see from this group.
Being reasonable and understanding the situation / how developing players works in college basketball isn't making excuses.
 
02-22-2021 03:53 PM
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Post: #80
RE: It’s time
(02-22-2021 03:43 PM)robertfoshizzle Wrote:  
(02-22-2021 03:35 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  I know, right? UCLA fans are going to hate how Cronin recruits.

If he was recruiting guys who ended up transferring to Morgan State, Georgia Southern, UAB, Evansville, Georgia State, and Buffalo, then yeah -- I'm sure they would hate it. Cronin flopped HARD in recruiting for 2017, 2018, and 2019 (only had Samari Curtis coming in).

And Curtis only signed on the rebound after Chris Mack left X as I recall. For Curtis, it was only the beginning of his tour of D1 basketball schools.
 
02-22-2021 04:00 PM
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