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Game Day Thread: Cincy at Coog High
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robertfoshizzle Offline
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Post: #181
RE: Game Day Thread: Cincy at Coog High
(02-22-2021 12:04 PM)colohank Wrote:  Maybe Brannen should consider a run for the Senate. Alabama is no longer available, but maybe there's another state willing to bet on a washed-up coach.

Brannen is 47 and won 20 or more games 4 straight years prior to this season. I know y'all want Brannen gone, but this isn't a Tuberville situation.
 
02-22-2021 12:06 PM
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Post: #182
RE: Game Day Thread: Cincy at Coog High
(02-22-2021 07:11 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(02-21-2021 11:18 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Don’t think my pulse went over 60 at any point of that game. This team is hard to watch because it’s largely just boring basketball.

Yep, I was asleep by the time we went down by 10, woke up at halftime and switched over to UM-OSU.

It’s not the losing...it’s the boring schemes on both ends of the court and a roster that looks like it needs a heart transplant way too often. Still don’t know what this team does well or thinks it hangs it’s hat on.
 
02-22-2021 12:48 PM
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back2vinyl Offline
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Post: #183
RE: Game Day Thread: Cincy at Coog High
(02-22-2021 10:45 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(02-22-2021 10:37 AM)eroc Wrote:  
(02-22-2021 09:44 AM)skylinecat Wrote:  
(02-22-2021 07:00 AM)back2vinyl Wrote:  
(02-21-2021 02:46 PM)Bear Catlett Wrote:  Dude, we're only three years removed from being a 2 seed in the NCAA tournament.

This guy was given the keys to a corvette and he's turned it into an '82 gremlin. I think anyone would understand if we canned his a**.

This doesn't let Brannon off the hook, but 2018 was also the year we had that sickening loss to Nevada in the second round. At some point, you have to ask why our Corvette sets record lap times in qualifying, but keeps wiping out in turn one on race day.

It stinks we lost obviously but I think people are too hung up on that one loss in what was otherwise an excellent season. Nevada had a good team with 2 NBA players. It was an unfortunate match-up for us. Nature of a one loss and you're out tournament is that only one team goes home happy. Nevada's program hasn't exactly taken off since that win. I was frustrated with our inability to go on a run in the tournament, don't get me wrong, but I'd take it compared to this in a heart beat.

i beg to differ. That game reinforced on a national level what a lot of Bearcats supporters already felt: That mick was a good game prep coach, but not a good in-game coach. He could keep the tourney streak alive, be competitive for conference championships, but his ceiling was prominently on display.

i think it also confirmed something for mick: That he couldn't win it at Cincy (and i don't know if he'll be able to win it anywhere). i think he wins that game, it changes his mentality about the ceiling of the program as a whole.

in my opinion, that could easily be characterized as a program changing loss.

Yea. That loss stings so much more as time passes. If that team had found its way to the final four (very likely if they held on) Mick probably doesn't miss so badly on the next couple recruiting classes. Things are really there to succeed even if Mick does leave for UCLA.

The only other loss that comes close in my mind is when we were upset by UCLA in the second round as a one-seed in 2002. To be the two-seed and up by 22 points with 10 minutes left, then stop scoring for eight minutes and wind up losing in the second round of the NCAA was a real gut-punch. After that, it was difficult for me to get excited during the regular season.
 
02-22-2021 12:53 PM
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rath v2.0 Offline
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Post: #184
RE: Game Day Thread: Cincy at Coog High
(02-22-2021 12:06 PM)robertfoshizzle Wrote:  
(02-22-2021 12:04 PM)colohank Wrote:  Maybe Brannen should consider a run for the Senate. Alabama is no longer available, but maybe there's another state willing to bet on a washed-up coach.

Brannen is 47 and won 20 or more games 4 straight years prior to this season. I know y'all want Brannen gone, but this isn't a Tuberville situation.

We averaged like 27 wins a year the 5 years before he was hired to move 10 miles north for $1.2 million dollars a year more per season.

I said it when we hired he and his low mid-major staff that I feared we wouldn’t win 27 games in any of the next 5 seasons. People on here said they’d take 20 wins and advancing in March. Still love those takes.
 
02-22-2021 01:04 PM
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robertfoshizzle Offline
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Post: #185
RE: Game Day Thread: Cincy at Coog High
(02-22-2021 01:04 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  
(02-22-2021 12:06 PM)robertfoshizzle Wrote:  
(02-22-2021 12:04 PM)colohank Wrote:  Maybe Brannen should consider a run for the Senate. Alabama is no longer available, but maybe there's another state willing to bet on a washed-up coach.

Brannen is 47 and won 20 or more games 4 straight years prior to this season. I know y'all want Brannen gone, but this isn't a Tuberville situation.

We averaged like 27 wins a year the 5 years before he was hired to move 10 miles north for $1.2 million dollars a year more per season.

I said it when we hired he and his low mid-major staff that I feared we wouldn’t win 27 games in any of the next 5 seasons. People on here said they’d take 20 wins and advancing in March. Still love those takes.

And no blame goes to Cronin for recruiting like garbage from 2017 on?
 
02-22-2021 01:18 PM
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rath v2.0 Offline
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RE: Game Day Thread: Cincy at Coog High
Recruiting is awesome now.

We’ve also had 5 guys quit mid season in just 14 months (6 but one came back). That’s pretty awesome, too.
 
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02-22-2021 01:22 PM
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bearcatmark Online
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RE: Game Day Thread: Cincy at Coog High
(02-22-2021 01:22 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Recruiting is awesome now.

We’ve also had 5 guys quit mid season in just 14 months (6 but one came back). That’s pretty awesome, too.

I know you're being sarcastic.

Recruiting has been a mixed bag, but filling this many roster openings that is to be expected. When Cronin had to fill this many roster spots the team was a disaster too.

The positive is there are guys on the roster that have the potential to be good players on tournament teams as they develop. Brannen has to keep them around, he needs to keep trying to fill out the roster with quality guys and get to a place where he needs 3-4 recruits a year not 6 or 7 (Mick talked about this a lot his first few years).

I'm not convinced Brannen is the guy, but given the massive roster turnover and the weak post Scott/Jarron classes he inherited, I'm not bailing either. Programs that don't recruit the elite top 20-25 type players need time to develop their guys (hell in this weird year where teams don't get the time together they normally do even those kind of programs like UK/Duke have really struggled without strong upper classes). We don't have a good upper class right now. If the guys Brannen brought in don't provide down the line it will be time to move on.
 
02-22-2021 03:21 PM
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RealDeal Offline
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Post: #188
RE: Game Day Thread: Cincy at Coog High
(02-22-2021 03:21 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  The positive is there are guys on the roster that have the potential to be good players on tournament teams as they develop. Brannen has to keep them around, he needs to keep trying to fill out the roster with quality guys and get to a place where he needs 3-4 recruits a year not 6 or 7 (Mick talked about this a lot his first few years).

I'm not convinced Brannen is the guy, but given the massive roster turnover and the weak post Scott/Jarron classes he inherited, I'm not bailing either. Programs that don't recruit the elite top 20-25 type players need time to develop their guys (hell in this weird year where teams don't get the time together they normally do even those kind of programs like UK/Duke have really struggled without strong upper classes). We don't have a good upper class right now. If the guys Brannen brought in don't provide down the line it will be time to move on.

I feel the exact same way. My concern is that the COVID timing couldn't have come at a worse time. Now we have a lot of openings in a year where they haven't been out on the road recruiting in 12 months so anyone we bring in this year will be someone they haven't seen play in over a year. Not to mention the development of our younger players has been stunted by disruption of off season workouts and in season practice disruptions.

We really had our timetable pushed back a year but the support from the fanbase isn't going to be there if year 3 isn't an improvement on year 2. Realistically 20-21 would be a year you just cross out and forget about it but when you're .500 in year three youre going to have people looking back and saying we're .500 for two straight years at a program where that's completely unacceptable. Long way of saying I think this year needs a pass but I don't think the average fan will look back that way next year.

For Brannen to not lose the average fan we need to hit a couple big wins in the transfer market and then next year do the same in the traditional recruiting market. Between DDJ, MAW, Mason, Tari there's potentially a team that can be better next year with a couple additions.
 
02-23-2021 07:20 AM
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BearcatJerry Offline
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Post: #189
RE: Game Day Thread: Cincy at Coog High
(02-23-2021 07:20 AM)RealDeal Wrote:  
(02-22-2021 03:21 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  The positive is there are guys on the roster that have the potential to be good players on tournament teams as they develop. Brannen has to keep them around, he needs to keep trying to fill out the roster with quality guys and get to a place where he needs 3-4 recruits a year not 6 or 7 (Mick talked about this a lot his first few years).

I'm not convinced Brannen is the guy, but given the massive roster turnover and the weak post Scott/Jarron classes he inherited, I'm not bailing either. Programs that don't recruit the elite top 20-25 type players need time to develop their guys (hell in this weird year where teams don't get the time together they normally do even those kind of programs like UK/Duke have really struggled without strong upper classes). We don't have a good upper class right now. If the guys Brannen brought in don't provide down the line it will be time to move on.

I feel the exact same way. My concern is that the COVID timing couldn't have come at a worse time. Now we have a lot of openings in a year where they haven't been out on the road recruiting in 12 months so anyone we bring in this year will be someone they haven't seen play in over a year. Not to mention the development of our younger players has been stunted by disruption of off season workouts and in season practice disruptions.

We really had our timetable pushed back a year but the support from the fanbase isn't going to be there if year 3 isn't an improvement on year 2. Realistically 20-21 would be a year you just cross out and forget about it but when you're .500 in year three youre going to have people looking back and saying we're .500 for two straight years at a program where that's completely unacceptable. Long way of saying I think this year needs a pass but I don't think the average fan will look back that way next year.

For Brannen to not lose the average fan we need to hit a couple big wins in the transfer market and then next year do the same in the traditional recruiting market. Between DDJ, MAW, Mason, Tari there's potentially a team that can be better next year with a couple additions.

And here is where I have the gravest concerns regarding Brannen. The relationships in the "traditional recruiting" (i.e. youth basketball into AAU into High School) is a long-term commitment by the Coaching staff. It's not as simple as "Well, one year I go 'transfer' and the next I go 'traditional.'" You have to be out there cultivating those relationships with Coaches and players EVERY YEAR. And yet, we have ZERO...NO...recruits for this upcoming year, and the pressure now is going to be for Brannen to hit three-or-four "homerun" recruits through the "transfer portal." Ideally, Brannen should be out there trying to get at least one or two HS players in...just to keep the relationships going with the "traditional" coaches and schools...but that looks even less likely now than it did at the start of the season.

What happens, as you say, when in the 2021-2022 season we zero in on the "hot" prospects for the year and Brannen goes to try and visit them...and they (by definition) will also be courted by the Calipari's and the Steele's of the world...and the BB coaches go, "Yeah, well, I'm not going to go out of my way to make an introduction..." or "Yeah, well, you see I think my kid would be better served at Xavier or Kentucky..."

The whole "transfer portal" seems to me to be eerily akin to the old "JUCO" market in FB. Programs that relied exclusively or heavily on JUCO kids, as opposed to "traditional recruiting," never seemed to do well. Especially in College BB, the teams that dominate are loaded with "One-and-done" HS kids, not "transfer" kids. And I don't even "like" the "One-and-done" mentality, but those are the teams that have lit up the NCAA tourney.

I really worry that this move to relying on the "Transfer Portal" for UC Basketball is not going to result in our thriving...and could do long-lasting damage in recruiting going forward.
 
02-23-2021 10:04 AM
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RE: Game Day Thread: Cincy at Coog High
(02-23-2021 10:04 AM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  I really worry that this move to relying on the "Transfer Portal" for UC Basketball is not going to result in our thriving...and could do long-lasting damage in recruiting going forward.

I would counter that he's had to rely heavily on the transfer portal to fill MASSIVE holes in roster composition of the classes he inherited (Other than the Scott/Jarron class). His work in that regard has been a mixed bag with some misses (Sorolla, McNeil, Rap), a couple nice finds (Cumberland, DeJulius) and a flawed/servicable need filler (Vogt).

His best work has been done with the HS guys he;s brought in. Eason looks to be a guy with a ton of potential. Davenport, MAW, and Madsen all look like guys who can been nice pieces for good teams as they develop.

Jury is still out on Saunders though Brannen seems to be really throwing into it post COVID break. Hopefully Gabe Madsen returns and we get to see what he can do.

The lack of a current recruiting class is obviously a huge worry. Brannen's future really does depend on doing well this offseason.
 
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02-23-2021 10:14 AM
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Post: #191
RE: Game Day Thread: Cincy at Coog High
(02-23-2021 10:14 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(02-23-2021 10:04 AM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  I really worry that this move to relying on the "Transfer Portal" for UC Basketball is not going to result in our thriving...and could do long-lasting damage in recruiting going forward.

I would counter that he's had to rely heavily on the transfer portal to fill MASSIVE holes in roster composition of the classes he inherited (Other than the Scott/Jarron class). His work in that regard has been a mixed bag with some misses (Sorolla, McNeil, Rap), a couple nice finds (Cumberland, DeJulius) and a flawed/servicable need filler (Vogt).

His best work has been done with the HS guys he;s brought in. Eason looks to be a guy with a ton of potential. Davenport, MAW, and Madsen all look like guys who can been nice pieces for good teams as they develop.

Jury is still out on Saunders though Brannen seems to be really throwing into it post COVID break. Hopefully Gabe Madsen returns and we get to see what he can do.

The lack of a current recruiting class is obviously a huge worry. Brannen's future really does depend on doing well this offseason.

I agree with all of this Mark. I'm not ripping Mick and I'm not saying I'm not concerned with the lack of an '01 class so far, but the reality is that Brannen has had to fill huge holes in this team's roster and implement a new more up-tempo system while being somewhat handcuffed by Covid limitations. His team was 8-6 last year and won the regular season conference championship. We are 7-8 this year...not too far off after losing major contributors from last year's team. It is going to take some time for him to build the his team but I think he has some good young core pieces in place already. I would much rather be dominating the conference and have a top 25 class coming in in the fall but I have patience with what Brannen is doing. If we are sitting here in the same situation this time next year, I will be feeling more impatient. During his 2nd season having gone through everything we've gone through for the past year, I'm ok with where we are. Let's hope he can land some more of those building blocks over the next 3-4 months so we all can be a little more comfortable with the '21-'22 team.
 
02-23-2021 10:59 AM
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RE: Game Day Thread: Cincy at Coog High
Brannen also wanted those holes. The younger guys he inherited from Cronin were hardly All Americans, but they were in the program and could have brought some stability, and I don't think they were any worse than Vogt or Rap or even some of Brannen's high school recruits. I'm pretty confident that Cronin would have built a solid team with them. And people have cited Scott and Brooks--those guys were lowly rated recruits who went through the system and got better. Meanwhile, people look at later lowly rated recruits and say, "Well the cupboard was bare." Yes, those guys transfered to weak programs, but where do you think Tre Scott would have gone had he left after his freshman year? I'm guessing more Georgia St. than Ohio St.
 
02-23-2021 11:20 AM
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RE: Game Day Thread: Cincy at Coog High
(02-23-2021 11:20 AM)levydl Wrote:  Brannen also wanted those holes. The younger guys he inherited from Cronin were hardly All Americans, but they were in the program and could have brought some stability, and I don't think they were any worse than Vogt or Rap or even some of Brannen's high school recruits. I'm pretty confident that Cronin would have built a solid team with them. And people have cited Scott and Brooks--those guys were lowly rated recruits who went through the system and got better. Meanwhile, people look at later lowly rated recruits and say, "Well the cupboard was bare." Yes, those guys transfered to weak programs, but where do you think Tre Scott would have gone had he left after his freshman year? I'm guessing more Georgia St. than Ohio St.

Scott and Brooks weren't exactly lowly rated. They were midtier role player rated. 100 spots nationally better than guys like Trevor Moore / Nsoseme. They were also not meant to be the crown jewel of the class (Cumberland).

Also who did Brannen exactly run off? All indications are he tried to keep Logan Johnson and Nsoseme in the fold. Apparently Nsoseme was out the door even in Mick stayed (at least what Chad implied on his podcast). Players leave after coaching changes. Mick didn't have any Jarron/Evans/Clark types in those other classes, which were the key to UC having the luxury of developing other role players.
 
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02-23-2021 11:31 AM
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RE: Game Day Thread: Cincy at Coog High
(02-23-2021 11:31 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(02-23-2021 11:20 AM)levydl Wrote:  Brannen also wanted those holes. The younger guys he inherited from Cronin were hardly All Americans, but they were in the program and could have brought some stability, and I don't think they were any worse than Vogt or Rap or even some of Brannen's high school recruits. I'm pretty confident that Cronin would have built a solid team with them. And people have cited Scott and Brooks--those guys were lowly rated recruits who went through the system and got better. Meanwhile, people look at later lowly rated recruits and say, "Well the cupboard was bare." Yes, those guys transfered to weak programs, but where do you think Tre Scott would have gone had he left after his freshman year? I'm guessing more Georgia St. than Ohio St.

Scott and Brooks weren't exactly lowly rated. They were midtier role player rated. 100 spots nationally better than guys like Trevor Moore / Nsoseme. They were also not meant to be the crown jewel of the class (Cumberland).

Also who did Brannen exactly run off? All indications are he tried to keep Logan Johnson and Nsoseme in the fold. Apparently Nsoseme was out the door even in Mick stayed (at least what Chad implied on his podcast). Players leave after coaching changes. Mick didn't have any Jarron/Evans/Clark types in those other classes, which were the key to UC having the luxury of developing other role players.

Scott improved over the course of the season last year too (as did the team as a whole). Brannen deserves some credit for that too. I don't think our record after 1 3/4 seasons and a bad loss to a very veteran Houston team tells the whole story of Brannen's coaching tenure here. He definitely has more work to do but I do think he will get it done.
 
02-23-2021 11:47 AM
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RE: Game Day Thread: Cincy at Coog High
BTW people probably underrate the job Mick did recruiting the 2013, 2014 and 2015 those as a whole were great classes. He found a star in each class, all of which it was clear from game 1 would be all time caliber UC players (Clark in 2014, Evans 2015, Cumberland 2016). But even among his lesser recruits there weren't any real reaches with guys able to give decent minutes from year 1 and Quad was the only real disaster (a guy who just had know feel for the game and was overrated by recruiting services)

2014 Class:
Clark- Homerun Recruit
Ellis - Key juco transfer, big time need fill, could play right away
Cobb- Big time shooter, could play right away
DeBerry- Big Time role player off the bench, right away.
Quad- disaster, but in a class that big you'll never hit them all.

2015 Class-
Jacob Evans- Homerun Recruit
Justin Jenifer- Clear early he'd be a guy that could at least be a role player down the road.

2016 Class-
Cumberland- Homerun Recruit
Tre Scott- Immediately able to give solid minutes, role player who could be developed.
Nysier Brooks - Early minutes weren't quite as good, but big athletic guy with some feel for the game. By the end of year 2 was already a really good interior defender.


At the same time, the dropoff from those classes is pretty staggering. I know some seem to act like he was recruiting the same caliber of player. He just wasn't. His best recruits were potential role players, but he took far more chances and made far more reaches with the classes after 2016. There were several guys who had little hope of competing well at this level.

Of course all those classes after 2016 were post UNLV interview. I think it's pretty clear Mick wasn't looking at Cincinnati as his long term plan at that point. Hard to believe that didn't have something to do with the precipitous recruiting dropoff.
 
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02-23-2021 12:02 PM
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RE: Game Day Thread: Cincy at Coog High
Scott was a redshirt. He was rated right about where Hardnett was, for ex.

Keith Williams was not quite as highly rated as Clark and Evans and surely Cumberland, but he was a near 100 guy. It's true that Cronin needed more of those higher-end recruits to have a top 10-20 team. But the rest of the guys were longer-term projects on the same path as Scott and Brooks and Justin Jennifer. Again, had any of those guys transferred out early in their careers, do you think they end up at a top program or at the places where the later guys ended up?
 
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RE: Game Day Thread: Cincy at Coog High
Track record established they would have likely worked out just fine long term here. We went a different direction with the hire which caused an exodus. It happens.
 
02-23-2021 12:41 PM
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RE: Game Day Thread: Cincy at Coog High
(02-23-2021 12:33 PM)levydl Wrote:  Scott was a redshirt. He was rated right about where Hardnett was, for ex.

Keith Williams was not quite as highly rated as Clark and Evans and surely Cumberland, but he was a near 100 guy. It's true that Cronin needed more of those higher-end recruits to have a top 10-20 team. But the rest of the guys were longer-term projects on the same path as Scott and Brooks and Justin Jennifer. Again, had any of those guys transferred out early in their careers, do you think they end up at a top program or at the places where the later guys ended up?

I don't know where they end up. I know they were far more talented than most of the lower recruits mick brought in his last few classes. I know mick didn't bring anyone in like the top recruits he brought from 2013-2015. If you don't see the drastic talent drop-off in recruiting I don't know what else to say.
 
02-23-2021 12:45 PM
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RE: Game Day Thread: Cincy at Coog High
Always have thought that the fact nobody followed Mick to Ucla was telling with all the turnover. Just one, just one? LOL
 
02-23-2021 12:52 PM
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RE: Game Day Thread: Cincy at Coog High
Mick wouldn’t have taken a single guy off of the old roster or off of this current roster for UCLA. Look who he is landing out there for 21’ and 22’ and who he is in the final running for. Apples and oranges.

Brannen has already started to figure out some of the realities of recruiting here.
 
02-23-2021 01:03 PM
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