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Devout Biden vs Abortion
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tigergreen Offline
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Post: #81
RE: Devout Biden vs Abortion
(02-23-2021 02:42 PM)SMUstang Wrote:  
(02-23-2021 02:24 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  
(02-23-2021 02:04 PM)Oman Wrote:  
(02-23-2021 10:16 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  It is 100% possible to be Christian and not choose abortion for yourself, yet still support that in this country, a woman should have the right to make that decision.

Green my friend, it's not possible. As a Christian you can support tolerance for choices that you might not choose for your self if it affects only that person.. perhaps alchohol, drugs, any number of things. But as a Christian you cannot support a "right" to end the life of another human.. that choice not only affects the woman but the child... it just doesn't fit.

thank you for your response, i appreciate discussion

I disagree, and where it seems to diverge is when people consider it to be "murder."
Some like previous posters consider it to be when there's a heartbeat, some consider it to be at conception, I personally consider it to be at viability. Every single person has a different opinion on this issue.

As a Christian I can support a woman's right to choose what happens with her body, even if not a single fiber of my being would be able to do it personally. I can also understand and respect the fact that the law extends past when I personally think is "too far." It is a personal choice between a woman, her doctor, and her partner/family.

If the rule is that as a Christian you cannot support a "right" to end the life of another human, then a whole lot of Christians need to revamp their opinion on the death penalty as well. Doesn't matter if that person is a wicked, evil being - you're supporting ending the life of a person who is already living & breathing outside of another person's body.

The "death penalty" probably does need to be looked at too. It's not our right to judge, only Gods. But all people who are given the "death penalty" are guilty of taking the life of another human being and that is wrong.

Not trying to take it too far off-track, but the statement in bold isn't completely accurate. FWIW, I agree that the death penalty should be looked at (not abolished, IMO) as well.

https://www.aclu.org/issues/capital-puni...didnt-kill

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post...or-murder/
02-23-2021 02:49 PM
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SMUstang Offline
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Post: #82
RE: Devout Biden vs Abortion
(02-23-2021 02:49 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  
(02-23-2021 02:42 PM)SMUstang Wrote:  
(02-23-2021 02:24 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  
(02-23-2021 02:04 PM)Oman Wrote:  
(02-23-2021 10:16 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  It is 100% possible to be Christian and not choose abortion for yourself, yet still support that in this country, a woman should have the right to make that decision.

Green my friend, it's not possible. As a Christian you can support tolerance for choices that you might not choose for your self if it affects only that person.. perhaps alchohol, drugs, any number of things. But as a Christian you cannot support a "right" to end the life of another human.. that choice not only affects the woman but the child... it just doesn't fit.

thank you for your response, i appreciate discussion

I disagree, and where it seems to diverge is when people consider it to be "murder."
Some like previous posters consider it to be when there's a heartbeat, some consider it to be at conception, I personally consider it to be at viability. Every single person has a different opinion on this issue.

As a Christian I can support a woman's right to choose what happens with her body, even if not a single fiber of my being would be able to do it personally. I can also understand and respect the fact that the law extends past when I personally think is "too far." It is a personal choice between a woman, her doctor, and her partner/family.

If the rule is that as a Christian you cannot support a "right" to end the life of another human, then a whole lot of Christians need to revamp their opinion on the death penalty as well. Doesn't matter if that person is a wicked, evil being - you're supporting ending the life of a person who is already living & breathing outside of another person's body.

The "death penalty" probably does need to be looked at too. It's not our right to judge, only Gods. But all people who are given the "death penalty" are guilty of taking the life of another human being and that is wrong.

Not trying to take it too far off-track, but the statement in bold isn't completely accurate. FWIW, I agree that the death penalty should be looked at (not abolished, IMO) as well.

https://www.aclu.org/issues/capital-puni...didnt-kill

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post...or-murder/

Your examples are a travesty of justice. But they don't support abortion.
02-23-2021 02:53 PM
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tigergreen Offline
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Post: #83
RE: Devout Biden vs Abortion
(02-23-2021 02:53 PM)SMUstang Wrote:  
(02-23-2021 02:49 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  
(02-23-2021 02:42 PM)SMUstang Wrote:  
(02-23-2021 02:24 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  
(02-23-2021 02:04 PM)Oman Wrote:  Green my friend, it's not possible. As a Christian you can support tolerance for choices that you might not choose for your self if it affects only that person.. perhaps alchohol, drugs, any number of things. But as a Christian you cannot support a "right" to end the life of another human.. that choice not only affects the woman but the child... it just doesn't fit.

thank you for your response, i appreciate discussion

I disagree, and where it seems to diverge is when people consider it to be "murder."
Some like previous posters consider it to be when there's a heartbeat, some consider it to be at conception, I personally consider it to be at viability. Every single person has a different opinion on this issue.

As a Christian I can support a woman's right to choose what happens with her body, even if not a single fiber of my being would be able to do it personally. I can also understand and respect the fact that the law extends past when I personally think is "too far." It is a personal choice between a woman, her doctor, and her partner/family.

If the rule is that as a Christian you cannot support a "right" to end the life of another human, then a whole lot of Christians need to revamp their opinion on the death penalty as well. Doesn't matter if that person is a wicked, evil being - you're supporting ending the life of a person who is already living & breathing outside of another person's body.

The "death penalty" probably does need to be looked at too. It's not our right to judge, only Gods. But all people who are given the "death penalty" are guilty of taking the life of another human being and that is wrong.

Not trying to take it too far off-track, but the statement in bold isn't completely accurate. FWIW, I agree that the death penalty should be looked at (not abolished, IMO) as well.

https://www.aclu.org/issues/capital-puni...didnt-kill

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post...or-murder/

Your examples are a travesty of justice. But they don't support abortion.

Still establishes that death penalty is not solely an "eye for an eye" thing - just making the point.
(This post was last modified: 02-23-2021 03:01 PM by tigergreen.)
02-23-2021 03:01 PM
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ericsrevenge76 Away
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Post: #84
RE: Devout Biden vs Abortion
(02-23-2021 02:31 PM)Eagleaidaholic Wrote:  
(02-23-2021 02:24 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  
(02-23-2021 02:04 PM)Oman Wrote:  
(02-23-2021 10:16 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  It is 100% possible to be Christian and not choose abortion for yourself, yet still support that in this country, a woman should have the right to make that decision.

Green my friend, it's not possible. As a Christian you can support tolerance for choices that you might not choose for your self if it affects only that person.. perhaps alchohol, drugs, any number of things. But as a Christian you cannot support a "right" to end the life of another human.. that choice not only affects the woman but the child... it just doesn't fit.

thank you for your response, i appreciate discussion

I disagree, and where it seems to diverge is when people consider it to be "murder."
Some like previous posters consider it to be when there's a heartbeat, some consider it to be at conception, I personally consider it to be at viability. Every single person has a different opinion on this issue.

As a Christian I can support a woman's right to choose what happens with her body, even if not a single fiber of my being would be able to do it personally. I can also understand and respect the fact that the law extends past when I personally think is "too far." It is a personal choice between a woman, her doctor, and her partner/family.

If the rule is that as a Christian you cannot support a "right" to end the life of another human, then a whole lot of Christians need to revamp their opinion on the death penalty as well. Doesn't matter if that person is a wicked, evil being - you're supporting ending the life of a person who is already living & breathing outside of another person's body.

Unborn children do not deserve capital punishment. At least compare abortion to killing someone in self-defense which also isn't comparable. It's a better argument.




UNBELIEVABLE that she would actually make that argument.

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02-23-2021 03:13 PM
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ericsrevenge76 Away
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Post: #85
RE: Devout Biden vs Abortion
There were a whole host of sins and crimes in the OT law that God required the death penalty for. And there is nothing in the NT that suggests capital punishment is wrong.

At the same time the entire Bible shows that God considers an unborn baby to be a living, breathing human soul.

I still can't believe she would compare the most innocent of innocents to that of a convicted mass murderer on death row. What is wrong with you? That is so beyond the pale.
02-23-2021 03:20 PM
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tigergreen Offline
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Post: #86
RE: Devout Biden vs Abortion
(02-23-2021 03:20 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  I still can't believe she would compare the most innocent of innocents to that of a convicted mass murderer on death row. What is wrong with you? That is so beyond the pale.

You can let go of your pearls at any time. I'm just illustrating the point that there is nuance in everything, including the abortion argument - otherwise in order to call yourself a Christian you must also must be against the death penalty, self-defense killings, etc.
(This post was last modified: 02-23-2021 03:26 PM by tigergreen.)
02-23-2021 03:24 PM
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ericsrevenge76 Away
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Post: #87
RE: Devout Biden vs Abortion
(02-23-2021 03:24 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  
(02-23-2021 03:20 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  I still can't believe she would compare the most innocent of innocents to that of a convicted mass murderer on death row. What is wrong with you? That is so beyond the pale.

You can let go of your pearls at any time. I'm just illustrating the point that there is nuance in everything, including the abortion argument - otherwise in order to call yourself a Christian you must also must be against the death penalty, self-defense killings, etc.



When dealing with the genocide of some 50 million unborn babies, your darned right I will clutch the pearls of justice and righteousness. The blood of the most innocent of all is a huge deal to God and thus it is to me as well as a true believer.


God and the Bible are very clear that self defense and the death penalty are NOT sinful or unrighteous in God's eyes.

If you would actually read His Word you might have known that.
(This post was last modified: 02-23-2021 03:34 PM by ericsrevenge76.)
02-23-2021 03:30 PM
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Post: #88
RE: Devout Biden vs Abortion
(02-23-2021 03:30 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  If you would actually read the book you might have known.

There you go again. Geesh, you're incorrigible.
02-23-2021 03:32 PM
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ericsrevenge76 Away
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Post: #89
RE: Devout Biden vs Abortion
(02-23-2021 03:32 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  
(02-23-2021 03:30 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  If you would actually read the book you might have known.

There you go again. Geesh, you're incorrigible.


Your darned right there I go again, she clearly had no idea that the Bible does not teach against self defense or capital punishment, in fact it actually endorses them.

If we are going to call ourselves Christians, we should actually know some of the most basic of facts its says and not chose to be totally ignorant of them.

These are not deep theological issues, they are some of the most basic of basics.
(This post was last modified: 02-23-2021 03:41 PM by ericsrevenge76.)
02-23-2021 03:40 PM
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tigergreen Offline
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Post: #90
RE: Devout Biden vs Abortion
(02-23-2021 03:30 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  
(02-23-2021 03:24 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  
(02-23-2021 03:20 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  I still can't believe she would compare the most innocent of innocents to that of a convicted mass murderer on death row. What is wrong with you? That is so beyond the pale.

You can let go of your pearls at any time. I'm just illustrating the point that there is nuance in everything, including the abortion argument - otherwise in order to call yourself a Christian you must also must be against the death penalty, self-defense killings, etc.


When dealing with the genocide of some 50 million unborn babies, your darned right I will clutch the pearls of justice and righteousness. The blood of the most innocent of all is a huge deal to God and thus it is to me as well as a true believer.


God and the Bible are very clear that self defense and the death penalty are NOT sinful or unrighteous in God's eyes.

If you would actually read His Word you might have known that.

I'll take sanctimonious, posturing responses for $500, Alex.
02-23-2021 03:41 PM
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Post: #91
RE: Devout Biden vs Abortion
(02-23-2021 02:24 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  
(02-23-2021 02:04 PM)Oman Wrote:  
(02-23-2021 10:16 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  It is 100% possible to be Christian and not choose abortion for yourself, yet still support that in this country, a woman should have the right to make that decision.

Green my friend, it's not possible. As a Christian you can support tolerance for choices that you might not choose for your self if it affects only that person.. perhaps alchohol, drugs, any number of things. But as a Christian you cannot support a "right" to end the life of another human.. that choice not only affects the woman but the child... it just doesn't fit.

thank you for your response, i appreciate discussion

I disagree, and where it seems to diverge is when people consider it to be "murder."
Some like previous posters consider it to be when there's a heartbeat, some consider it to be at conception, I personally consider it to be at viability. Every single person has a different opinion on this issue.

As a Christian I can support a woman's right to choose what happens with her body, even if not a single fiber of my being would be able to do it personally. I can also understand and respect the fact that the law extends past when I personally think is "too far." It is a personal choice between a woman, her doctor, and her partner/family.

If the rule is that as a Christian you cannot support a "right" to end the life of another human, then a whole lot of Christians need to revamp their opinion on the death penalty as well. Doesn't matter if that person is a wicked, evil being - you're supporting ending the life of a person who is already living & breathing outside of another person's body.

Green you've put up a straw man to deflect from a position that cannot be defended, perhaps supported by my choice of words, the term "right to end a life" was directed at this discussion, not a blanket statement. You are now comparing aborting a child to self-defense and execution of judgement by a government. You have also shifted to stating this "right" to terminate a pregnancy includes a woman, her doctor, her partner and family. But it does not. In our laws the choice is the woman's and hers only.

i have some sympathy for a stance that you could support an abortion before the heartbeat, although i would take issue with it that's at least a defendable position. But this is a shift as well. Your original statement was you supported the woman's right because it's legal and by implication the right as codified in our laws... there are no checks.. no limitations.. a woman can arbitrarily take an innocent human life for any reason at virtually any time before birth, and THAT is certainly not a defendable Christian position.
02-23-2021 03:42 PM
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tigergreen Offline
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Post: #92
RE: Devout Biden vs Abortion
(02-23-2021 03:42 PM)Oman Wrote:  
(02-23-2021 02:24 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  
(02-23-2021 02:04 PM)Oman Wrote:  
(02-23-2021 10:16 AM)tigergreen Wrote:  It is 100% possible to be Christian and not choose abortion for yourself, yet still support that in this country, a woman should have the right to make that decision.

Green my friend, it's not possible. As a Christian you can support tolerance for choices that you might not choose for your self if it affects only that person.. perhaps alchohol, drugs, any number of things. But as a Christian you cannot support a "right" to end the life of another human.. that choice not only affects the woman but the child... it just doesn't fit.

thank you for your response, i appreciate discussion

I disagree, and where it seems to diverge is when people consider it to be "murder."
Some like previous posters consider it to be when there's a heartbeat, some consider it to be at conception, I personally consider it to be at viability. Every single person has a different opinion on this issue.

As a Christian I can support a woman's right to choose what happens with her body, even if not a single fiber of my being would be able to do it personally. I can also understand and respect the fact that the law extends past when I personally think is "too far." It is a personal choice between a woman, her doctor, and her partner/family.

If the rule is that as a Christian you cannot support a "right" to end the life of another human, then a whole lot of Christians need to revamp their opinion on the death penalty as well. Doesn't matter if that person is a wicked, evil being - you're supporting ending the life of a person who is already living & breathing outside of another person's body.

Green you've put up a straw man to deflect from a position that cannot be defended, perhaps supported by my choice of words, the term "right to end a life" was directed at this discussion, not a blanket statement. You are now comparing aborting a child to self-defense and execution of judgement by a government. You have also shifted to stating this "right" to terminate a pregnancy includes a woman, her doctor, her partner and family. But it does not. In our laws the choice is the woman's and hers only.

i have some sympathy for a stance that you could support an abortion before the heartbeat, although i would take issue with it that's at least a defendable position. But this is a shift as well. Your original statement was you supported the woman's right because it's legal and by implication the right as codified in our laws... there are no checks.. no limitations.. a woman can arbitrarily take an innocent human life for any reason at virtually any time before birth, and THAT is certainly not a defendable Christian position.

I most certainly can understand that American law is not the same as Christian law, and therefore those who do not believe and think like me are free to do what they want under that law - I most certainly CAN, and do, believe that, and can believe that as a Christian.

Back to the OP, Biden most certainly can support and uphold the laws in this country whether or not he agrees with 100% of them.

Re: the death penalty/self-defense - that was purely in response to your assertion that you cannot be a Christian and 'support the right to end the life of another human.' I fully understand the situations are vastly different....just as I understand that every situation involving a woman choosing whether or not to have an abortion is different, AND every single person's opinion on the different facets of the issue of abortion is different.

And yes; you are 100% correct that in most states the decision rests with the woman, but if she should choose to involve her doctor or family in the discussion, that's up to her.
(This post was last modified: 02-23-2021 03:58 PM by tigergreen.)
02-23-2021 03:47 PM
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Post: #93
RE: Devout Biden vs Abortion
Biblicaly speaking, there are such a things are RIGHTEOUS anger and RIGHTEOUS disgust over immorality, and this is a shining example of it.

I find the issue to be horrifically disgusting, and having to actually argue it with people who self identify as Christians is infuriating.

The blood of the innocent is a BIG DEAL to God throughout the Bible. How can we as Christians pretend its morally acceptable to support the genocide of millions of unborn babies?
02-23-2021 03:48 PM
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Post: #94
RE: Devout Biden vs Abortion
(02-23-2021 03:48 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  I find the issue to be horrifically disgusting, and having to actually argue it with people who self identify as Christians is infuriating.

Again, then see yourself out. No one is keeping you here.
02-23-2021 03:52 PM
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Post: #95
RE: Devout Biden vs Abortion
(02-23-2021 03:41 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  I'll take sanctimonious, posturing responses for $500, Alex.


Typical

Deflect and blame me for you not knowing some of the most basic teachings of the Bible.

That says it all.
(This post was last modified: 02-23-2021 03:53 PM by ericsrevenge76.)
02-23-2021 03:52 PM
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Post: #96
RE: Devout Biden vs Abortion
(02-23-2021 03:52 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  
(02-23-2021 03:41 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  I'll take sanctimonious, posturing responses for $500, Alex.


Typical

Deflect and blame me for you not knowing some of the most basic teachings of the Bible.

That says it all.


(02-23-2021 03:52 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  Again, then see yourself out. No one is keeping you here.
02-23-2021 03:54 PM
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Post: #97
RE: Devout Biden vs Abortion
(02-23-2021 03:52 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  
(02-23-2021 03:48 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  I find the issue to be horrifically disgusting, and having to actually argue it with people who self identify as Christians is infuriating.

Again, then see yourself out. No one is keeping you here.


Of course. The last thing on earth you want to hear is what the Bible says about the genocide of innocent blood, capital punishment or self defense.

The basic truth here is a terrible inconvenience for you.

Instead of considering the possibility that you are in total opposition to God and the Bible on those things, you would rather close your eyes and ears and blame me.
(This post was last modified: 02-23-2021 04:01 PM by ericsrevenge76.)
02-23-2021 03:56 PM
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Post: #98
RE: Devout Biden vs Abortion
(02-23-2021 03:56 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  
(02-23-2021 03:52 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  
(02-23-2021 03:48 PM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  I find the issue to be horrifically disgusting, and having to actually argue it with people who self identify as Christians is infuriating.

Again, then see yourself out. No one is keeping you here.


Of course. The last thing on earth you want to hear is what the Bible says about the genocide of innocent blood, capital punishment or self defense.

The basic truth here is a terrible inconvenience for you.

I'll just post again to see if you are compelled to respond yet again, since you've already said twice that you find it infuriating to respond to me.
02-23-2021 04:00 PM
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Post: #99
RE: Devout Biden vs Abortion
(02-23-2021 04:00 PM)tigergreen Wrote:  I'll just post again to see if you are compelled to respond yet again, since you've already said twice that you find it infuriating to respond to me.


We both know that is not what I posted.

Christians of all people should know better, and its infuriating to have to debate it with a Christian OF ALL PEOPLE. Much like it would be infuriating to have to debate another Christian on rape, serial adultery, prostitution, mass murder or a host of other horrific sins.

You of all people should know better.


It would be wrong of me to remain silent about it. So I am not going anywhere and I am going to speak the truth of what the Bible says about these things, no matter how much you want to close your eyes and ears to it and for me to go away.
(This post was last modified: 02-23-2021 04:15 PM by ericsrevenge76.)
02-23-2021 04:09 PM
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Post: #100
RE: Devout Biden vs Abortion
Many people don't accept the Bible as the Word of God. They pick and choose what they want to believe. I don't know what they base their faith on. Jesus said "follow me". Granted that is hard to do at times. Our egos get in the way.
(This post was last modified: 02-23-2021 04:55 PM by SMUstang.)
02-23-2021 04:49 PM
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