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Retroactive War Gaming realignment
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vandiver49 Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Retroactive War Gaming realignment
(02-22-2021 11:26 AM)JRsec Wrote:  
(02-22-2021 11:16 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(02-21-2021 11:20 AM)JRsec Wrote:  So the Big East becomes:

Boston College, Cincinnati, Connecticut, Notre Dame, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Syracuse, West Virginia

Duke, Georgia Tech, Miami, North Carolina, N.C. State, Virginia, Virginia Tech, Wake Forest

You BE has has just as much instability as the current ACC in my opinion. Not having Clemson or FSU around only serves to increase the above conferences vulnerabilities in football.

The whole idea was to stop the football first politics. The non football basketball schools would still be present, Georgetown, Villanova, Providence, Seton Hall, etc. The conference would be a powerhouse for East Coast basketball, which if you will remember was the emphasis of most of the schools listed in the ACC except for Clemson and F.S.U. at the time. We are talking early 90's. The question would be whether Miami and Va Tech would stay. I think so once the ACC schools came aboard.

I think once the value is recognized via the increased TV payouts to the SEC and B1G, those BE schools with CFB programs have to figure out a way to maximize value. That includes ND, WVU, Tech, NCSU and even Cincy, UCONN and BC to some extent. Now I don't know if the BB schools would be more amenable to change with the likes of Duke and UNC in the fold, but I don't think the problem deviates much from what actually played out; a BB school split.
02-22-2021 11:37 AM
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vandiver49 Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Retroactive War Gaming realignment
It looks like realignment has been boiled down to two teams: FSU and PSU.

While it's assumed that the Nittany Lions would always move to the B1G, what if the ACC pulled off the ultimate coup and snagged both FSU and PSU in 1990? Could the folks in Greensboro have followed that up by matching the SEC expansion in 1992 by adding VT and Miami?

ACC North: PSU, UMD, VT, UNC, UVA, DUKE
ACC South: FSU, GT, CLEM, MIA, NSCU, WAKE

I think the above would have been a formidable lineup.
02-22-2021 11:49 AM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Retroactive War Gaming realignment
(02-22-2021 11:49 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  It looks like realignment has been boiled down to two teams: FSU and PSU.

While it's assumed that the Nittany Lions would always move to the B1G, what if the ACC pulled off the ultimate coup and snagged both FSU and PSU in 1990? Could the folks in Greensboro have followed that up by matching the SEC expansion in 1992 by adding VT and Miami?

ACC North: PSU, UMD, VT, UNC, UVA, DUKE
ACC South: FSU, GT, CLEM, MIA, NSCU, WAKE

I think the above would have been a formidable lineup.

Why Virginia Tech and Miami? Why not beat everyone to a super conference?
Take Miami, Virginia Tech, Notre Dame (who was the first pairing with Penn State to the Big 10) and Pitt (after making a run at Purdue).
(This post was last modified: 02-22-2021 12:17 PM by JRsec.)
02-22-2021 12:16 PM
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vandiver49 Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Retroactive War Gaming realignment
(02-22-2021 12:16 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(02-22-2021 11:49 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  It looks like realignment has been boiled down to two teams: FSU and PSU.

While it's assumed that the Nittany Lions would always move to the B1G, what if the ACC pulled off the ultimate coup and snagged both FSU and PSU in 1990? Could the folks in Greensboro have followed that up by matching the SEC expansion in 1992 by adding VT and Miami?

ACC North: PSU, UMD, VT, UNC, UVA, DUKE
ACC South: FSU, GT, CLEM, MIA, NSCU, WAKE

I think the above would have been a formidable lineup.

Why Virginia Tech and Miami? Why not beat everyone to a super conference?
Take Miami, Virginia Tech, Notre Dame (who was the first pairing with Penn State to the Big 10) and Pitt (after making a run at Purdue).

Because we are talking about the ACC so I wanted to keep my scenarios in the realm of the plausible. Besides, this early into realignment, ND isn't joining, so we are really talking about PITT and SYR. While UNC and Duke might push for this, I would expect stiff resistance from GT, CLEM, FSU and PSU.
02-22-2021 12:30 PM
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Retroactive War Gaming realignment
(02-22-2021 12:30 PM)vandiver49 Wrote:  
(02-22-2021 12:16 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(02-22-2021 11:49 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  It looks like realignment has been boiled down to two teams: FSU and PSU.

While it's assumed that the Nittany Lions would always move to the B1G, what if the ACC pulled off the ultimate coup and snagged both FSU and PSU in 1990? Could the folks in Greensboro have followed that up by matching the SEC expansion in 1992 by adding VT and Miami?

ACC North: PSU, UMD, VT, UNC, UVA, DUKE
ACC South: FSU, GT, CLEM, MIA, NSCU, WAKE

I think the above would have been a formidable lineup.

Why Virginia Tech and Miami? Why not beat everyone to a super conference?
Take Miami, Virginia Tech, Notre Dame (who was the first pairing with Penn State to the Big 10) and Pitt (after making a run at Purdue).

Because we are talking about the ACC so I wanted to keep my scenarios in the realm of the plausible. Besides, this early into realignment, ND isn't joining, so we are really talking about PITT and SYR. While UNC and Duke might push for this, I would expect stiff resistance from GT, CLEM, FSU and PSU.

Ah, but Notre Dame's administration had virtually agreed to Big 10 membership at the time, so you can't say they weren't considering it. But this is why exercises like this are tedious. People's memories of the situation in 1986 to 92 are damned short if they have them at all. And most importantly history decided otherwise. What if I had married my high school sweetheart? Would we have both ruined each other's lives? Would I have been better off or worse off? it's pointless really. Things are what they are but admittedly had Florida State not joined the ACC their ability to attract other schools that they later did land would have been disadvantaged at best. But since I'm happy with my family today, why would I want to undo yesterday, and if FSU is ever truly unhappy with its marriage there is always divorce! But they ain't as pretty as they used to be either!
(This post was last modified: 02-22-2021 12:50 PM by JRsec.)
02-22-2021 12:48 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Retroactive War Gaming realignment
I thought it wasn’t until around 1996 that ND was ready to go to the Big 10 but the donors squashed the deal?
02-22-2021 01:09 PM
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Post: #27
RE: Retroactive War Gaming realignment
(02-22-2021 01:09 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I thought it wasn’t until around 1996 that ND was ready to go to the Big 10 but the donors squashed the deal?

Muskie, when things make it to the press it is when the talks of the preceding years have finally come to a head. Courtship in a serious way can take up to two years just to work out details. The Big 10's interest in Notre Dame was older than '96. I expect there had been backroom chats ongoing for some time even it was just to figure out what their value might be on the part of Notre Dame, or to feel out sentiment change on the part of the Big 10.

Texas has been in off and on discussions with the SEC since '87. Realignment moves like a glacier. In encroaches incrementally until something snaps and then you get sudden movement that looked like it was the result of the moment when in reality it could have been building and moving in that direction for 50 years (or in the case of glaciers much longer).

But suffice it to say after the OU/UGa case Notre Dame gained the constant interest of the Big 10 because with the Irish the Big 10 controls advertising rates in most of the Northern Midwestern cities where right now Notre Dame remains a strong back door for commercial interests which may not be willing to pay what the Big 10 feels they should get for dominance in those demographics. Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, New York City, Chicago, are all places where Notre Dame draws enough interest to be extremely valuable to the Big 10 for reasons other than just football.

When ABC and the NCAA lost control of rights and networks were free to negotiate with conferences, N.D's true value to the Big 10 became obvious. It is why NBC signed them. What an inexpensive way to get into all of those lovely Big 10 cities without buying the Big 10 rights.
02-22-2021 01:29 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #28
RE: Retroactive War Gaming realignment
I have no doubt there were conversations with ND and the Big Ten. I imagine that they were talking in 1989 when the Penn St announcement came out. I just didn’t think that there was much reciprocation on ND’s part until around 1996.

All in all, Penn St and Florida St were the 2 most crucial moves of that era. in a war game scenario, if either of those 2 things changed the outcome would be dramatically different.

Put Penn St, Florida St, Miami, and a 4th school into the ACC in 1991 things look a lot more favorable to the ACC and bleak for everyone left outside of the 5 major D1-A football conferences, save the Irish.
02-22-2021 02:11 PM
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Wahoowa84 Offline
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Post: #29
RE: Retroactive War Gaming realignment
(02-22-2021 01:29 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(02-22-2021 01:09 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I thought it wasn’t until around 1996 that ND was ready to go to the Big 10 but the donors squashed the deal?

Muskie, when things make it to the press it is when the talks of the preceding years have finally come to a head. Courtship in a serious way can take up to two years just to work out details. The Big 10's interest in Notre Dame was older than '96. I expect there had been backroom chats ongoing for some time even it was just to figure out what their value might be on the part of Notre Dame, or to feel out sentiment change on the part of the Big 10.

Texas has been in off and on discussions with the SEC since '87. Realignment moves like a glacier. In encroaches incrementally until something snaps and then you get sudden movement that looked like it was the result of the moment when in reality it could have been building and moving in that direction for 50 years (or in the case of glaciers much longer).

But suffice it to say after the OU/UGa case Notre Dame gained the constant interest of the Big 10 because with the Irish the Big 10 controls advertising rates in most of the Northern Midwestern cities where right now Notre Dame remains a strong back door for commercial interests which may not be willing to pay what the Big 10 feels they should get for dominance in those demographics. Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, New York City, Chicago, are all places where Notre Dame draws enough interest to be extremely valuable to the Big 10 for reasons other than just football.

When ABC and the NCAA lost control of rights and networks were free to negotiate with conferences, N.D's true value to the Big 10 became obvious. It is why NBC signed them. What an inexpensive way to get into all of those lovely Big 10 cities without buying the Big 10 rights.

Following through on this logic...

In terms of commercial interest, Notre Dame football media rights should be incredibly valuable to Disney (ESPN). They provide a natural hedge against Fox / B10 exclusivity in a populous geography. The Irish would be foolish to re-up with NBC at anything resembling their current rate. In order to maximize payouts, ND should take their media rights to the open market. They are the only blue blood that doesn’t share it’s football media rights with a conference but is still able to schedule a competitive annual slate. ND has negotiated a stabilizing deal with the ACC (whose media market is largely different than ND’s core geography) but isn’t being paid its potential value. Similar to the SEC-CBS deal, the ND-NBC contract could prove to have a many factor increase in payouts.
02-22-2021 02:25 PM
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Post: #30
RE: Retroactive War Gaming realignment
(02-22-2021 02:25 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  
(02-22-2021 01:29 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(02-22-2021 01:09 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I thought it wasn’t until around 1996 that ND was ready to go to the Big 10 but the donors squashed the deal?

Muskie, when things make it to the press it is when the talks of the preceding years have finally come to a head. Courtship in a serious way can take up to two years just to work out details. The Big 10's interest in Notre Dame was older than '96. I expect there had been backroom chats ongoing for some time even it was just to figure out what their value might be on the part of Notre Dame, or to feel out sentiment change on the part of the Big 10.

Texas has been in off and on discussions with the SEC since '87. Realignment moves like a glacier. In encroaches incrementally until something snaps and then you get sudden movement that looked like it was the result of the moment when in reality it could have been building and moving in that direction for 50 years (or in the case of glaciers much longer).

But suffice it to say after the OU/UGa case Notre Dame gained the constant interest of the Big 10 because with the Irish the Big 10 controls advertising rates in most of the Northern Midwestern cities where right now Notre Dame remains a strong back door for commercial interests which may not be willing to pay what the Big 10 feels they should get for dominance in those demographics. Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, New York City, Chicago, are all places where Notre Dame draws enough interest to be extremely valuable to the Big 10 for reasons other than just football.

When ABC and the NCAA lost control of rights and networks were free to negotiate with conferences, N.D's true value to the Big 10 became obvious. It is why NBC signed them. What an inexpensive way to get into all of those lovely Big 10 cities without buying the Big 10 rights.

Following through on this logic...

In terms of commercial interest, Notre Dame football media rights should be incredibly valuable to Disney (ESPN). They provide a natural hedge against Fox / B10 exclusivity in a populous geography. The Irish would be foolish to re-up with NBC at anything resembling their current rate. In order to maximize payouts, ND should take their media rights to the open market. They are the only blue blood that doesn’t share it’s football media rights with a conference but is still able to schedule a competitive annual slate. ND has negotiated a stabilizing deal with the ACC (whose media market is largely different than ND’s core geography) but isn’t being paid its potential value. Similar to the SEC-CBS deal, the ND-NBC contract could prove to have a many factor increase in payouts.

Absolutely. It won't happen and I'm not even suggesting it will, but could you imagine the value of Notre Dame in the SEC? Notre Dame gets all of the value of the SEC contract, and the SEC through Notre Dame penetrates the main demographics in the Northern Midwest through to New York. So even though that would be the greenest of deals with a pot 'o gold at the end of the rainbow, there are some things that even Notre Dame and the SEC won't do for money!
02-22-2021 02:30 PM
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Wahoowa84 Offline
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Post: #31
RE: Retroactive War Gaming realignment
(02-22-2021 02:30 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(02-22-2021 02:25 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  
(02-22-2021 01:29 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(02-22-2021 01:09 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I thought it wasn’t until around 1996 that ND was ready to go to the Big 10 but the donors squashed the deal?

Muskie, when things make it to the press it is when the talks of the preceding years have finally come to a head. Courtship in a serious way can take up to two years just to work out details. The Big 10's interest in Notre Dame was older than '96. I expect there had been backroom chats ongoing for some time even it was just to figure out what their value might be on the part of Notre Dame, or to feel out sentiment change on the part of the Big 10.

Texas has been in off and on discussions with the SEC since '87. Realignment moves like a glacier. In encroaches incrementally until something snaps and then you get sudden movement that looked like it was the result of the moment when in reality it could have been building and moving in that direction for 50 years (or in the case of glaciers much longer).

But suffice it to say after the OU/UGa case Notre Dame gained the constant interest of the Big 10 because with the Irish the Big 10 controls advertising rates in most of the Northern Midwestern cities where right now Notre Dame remains a strong back door for commercial interests which may not be willing to pay what the Big 10 feels they should get for dominance in those demographics. Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, New York City, Chicago, are all places where Notre Dame draws enough interest to be extremely valuable to the Big 10 for reasons other than just football.

When ABC and the NCAA lost control of rights and networks were free to negotiate with conferences, N.D's true value to the Big 10 became obvious. It is why NBC signed them. What an inexpensive way to get into all of those lovely Big 10 cities without buying the Big 10 rights.

Following through on this logic...

In terms of commercial interest, Notre Dame football media rights should be incredibly valuable to Disney (ESPN). They provide a natural hedge against Fox / B10 exclusivity in a populous geography. The Irish would be foolish to re-up with NBC at anything resembling their current rate. In order to maximize payouts, ND should take their media rights to the open market. They are the only blue blood that doesn’t share it’s football media rights with a conference but is still able to schedule a competitive annual slate. ND has negotiated a stabilizing deal with the ACC (whose media market is largely different than ND’s core geography) but isn’t being paid its potential value. Similar to the SEC-CBS deal, the ND-NBC contract could prove to have a many factor increase in payouts.

Absolutely. It won't happen and I'm not even suggesting it will, but could you imagine the value of Notre Dame in the SEC? Notre Dame gets all of the value of the SEC contract, and the SEC through Notre Dame penetrates the main demographics in the Northern Midwest through to New York. So even though that would be the greenest of deals with a pot 'o gold at the end of the rainbow, there are some things that even Notre Dame and the SEC won't do for money!

I believe the ND-NBC deal ends in 2025. Therefore, ND could more than exceed the media payouts from the BIG and SEC by smartly exploiting its position. The ND-ACC GOR ends 11 years after its next football deal ends. ESPN should be chomping-at-the-bit for potential synergies (with ACCN and lucrative Midwest market).

The ND to the SEC scenario is too far-fetched, but the occasional games against UGA and Florida make sense.

For a blue blood like ND, the media revenue maximizing contract is a stand-alone (non-conference) contract with a compelling national schedule. For ESPN, it probably prefers ND in a conference so it can help build drama (such as in Covid’s 2020) and mitigate risks...probably with fewer conference games plus compelling OOC matchups. In an ideal world for ND and ESPN, instead of a steady 5 games per year with the ACC, they would increase media value by alternating scheduling with 8 games (plus in-conference) and 2 games (with complete conference independence). Not that this will occur, but it’s a media-savvy approach.
(This post was last modified: 02-22-2021 04:14 PM by Wahoowa84.)
02-22-2021 02:52 PM
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Post: #32
RE: Retroactive War Gaming realignment
(02-22-2021 02:52 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  
(02-22-2021 02:30 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(02-22-2021 02:25 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  
(02-22-2021 01:29 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(02-22-2021 01:09 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I thought it wasn’t until around 1996 that ND was ready to go to the Big 10 but the donors squashed the deal?

Muskie, when things make it to the press it is when the talks of the preceding years have finally come to a head. Courtship in a serious way can take up to two years just to work out details. The Big 10's interest in Notre Dame was older than '96. I expect there had been backroom chats ongoing for some time even it was just to figure out what their value might be on the part of Notre Dame, or to feel out sentiment change on the part of the Big 10.

Texas has been in off and on discussions with the SEC since '87. Realignment moves like a glacier. In encroaches incrementally until something snaps and then you get sudden movement that looked like it was the result of the moment when in reality it could have been building and moving in that direction for 50 years (or in the case of glaciers much longer).

But suffice it to say after the OU/UGa case Notre Dame gained the constant interest of the Big 10 because with the Irish the Big 10 controls advertising rates in most of the Northern Midwestern cities where right now Notre Dame remains a strong back door for commercial interests which may not be willing to pay what the Big 10 feels they should get for dominance in those demographics. Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, New York City, Chicago, are all places where Notre Dame draws enough interest to be extremely valuable to the Big 10 for reasons other than just football.

When ABC and the NCAA lost control of rights and networks were free to negotiate with conferences, N.D's true value to the Big 10 became obvious. It is why NBC signed them. What an inexpensive way to get into all of those lovely Big 10 cities without buying the Big 10 rights.

Following through on this logic...

In terms of commercial interest, Notre Dame football media rights should be incredibly valuable to Disney (ESPN). They provide a natural hedge against Fox / B10 exclusivity in a populous geography. The Irish would be foolish to re-up with NBC at anything resembling their current rate. In order to maximize payouts, ND should take their media rights to the open market. They are the only blue blood that doesn’t share it’s football media rights with a conference but is still able to schedule a competitive annual slate. ND has negotiated a stabilizing deal with the ACC (whose media market is largely different than ND’s core geography) but isn’t being paid its potential value. Similar to the SEC-CBS deal, the ND-NBC contract could prove to have a many factor increase in payouts.

Absolutely. It won't happen and I'm not even suggesting it will, but could you imagine the value of Notre Dame in the SEC? Notre Dame gets all of the value of the SEC contract, and the SEC through Notre Dame penetrates the main demographics in the Northern Midwest through to New York. So even though that would be the greenest of deals with a pot 'o gold at the end of the rainbow, there are some things that even Notre Dame and the SEC won't do for money!

I believe the ND-NBC deal ends in 2025. Therefore, ND could more than exceed the media payouts from the BIG and SEC by smartly exploiting its position. The ND-ACC GOR ends 11 years after its next football deal ends. ESPN should be chomping-at-the-bit for potential synergies (with ACCN and lucrative Midwest market).

The ND to the SEC scenario is too far-fetched, but the occasional games against UGA and Florida make sense.

1. I said it would never happen from the get go.

2. Notre Dame will never make what a Big 10 or SEC school makes on their own. The synergy of a conference is the multiplied draw.

3. Notre Dame probably could do as well as the PAC or ACC on its own, or with a schedule chocked full of Alabama, Oklahoma, Ohio State, Michigan and Texas. But I doubt I see that kind of scheduling out of the Irish.

4. Leverage works both ways. Notre Dame cannot command more than the Big 10 because the Big 10 is also a way into those markets besides Notre Dame. Notre Dame is worth more to the Big 10 because then together they would have leverage to get more. There is a reason besides just owning their rights that ESPN doesn't want to see Notre Dame in the Big 10 and it is the same reason they didn't want to see Florida State in the SEC and wanted to split the state of Texas between a few conferences. When A&M left for the SEC it made UT's leverage with ESPN less absolute.

5. It would help when one converses with you if you did acknowledge what was already discussed accurately. I clearly indicated that Notre Dame and the SEC would never happen when I made my point. Then you say, "the ND and SEC scenario is too far-fetched". What kind of statement is that if not to insinuate that I had claimed otherwise. It is obtuse on your part at the least and a typical tactic of dissemblers. You need to be careful of that.
(This post was last modified: 02-22-2021 04:14 PM by JRsec.)
02-22-2021 04:10 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Retroactive War Gaming realignment
If anyone is interested in conducting a war game scenario like this, send me a PM.

Here’s the format I’m thinking:

Start in 1989

Each “Year” will consist of two rounds of submitted proposals for expansion

We will all them discuss in what order to consider the proposals and determine the probability. As moderator, I’ll roll dice to determine if the proposal succeeds or fails.

Each “Year’s” 2nd proposal will be reserved for back up plans. Ex. A conference swung and missed at landing a high profile 12th member and now wants to try and secure back up school that’s likely to be easily amendable.

I’d like to find someone to represent the interests of the Big 10, ACC, SEC, SWC, PAC 10, Southern Independents, and Eastern Independents.

The idea here isn’t to “win”, merely to see where things go.
02-22-2021 07:42 PM
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Crayton Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Retroactive War Gaming realignment
What were the continuity rules in 1989? Did the Big West need a waiver when the WAC raised them?
02-23-2021 04:35 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Retroactive War Gaming realignment
(02-23-2021 04:35 PM)Crayton Wrote:  What were the continuity rules in 1989? Did the Big West need a waiver when the WAC raised them?

I think you only needed 6 or 7 schools back then but I’m hazy on the continuity elements of the rule book at the time. I think things were still pretty loose. I think about a dozen conferences were formed in the late 70s and early 80s.
02-23-2021 05:26 PM
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Post: #36
RE: Retroactive War Gaming realignment
So my grand war game plan didn’t pan out—not enough interest. However I don’t want to give up on the idea and plan on doing it on my own and then, with the completion of each “year’s” realignment cycle reporting the results. I’d like to get some feedback from the board on the percentage likelihood of the following things occurring in 1989:

Penn St to the Big Ten
Penn St to the Big East
Penn St to the ACC
Florida St to the SEC
Florida St to the ACC
Miami to the ACC
BC, Cuse, and Pitt to the ACC (fb only)
Notre Dame to the Big Ten
Colorado to the PAC 10
Texas to the PAC 10
Texas A&M to the SEC
Texas to the SEC
Oklahoma to the SEC
Clemson to the SEC
Texas & Texas A&M to the Big 8

Are there any other “Plan A” options I should try for Round 1 (of 2) for 1989?

I’m saving moves like Arkansas and SC for 1989 Round 2 as they weren’t marquee adds.
(This post was last modified: 03-05-2021 12:06 PM by Fighting Muskie.)
03-01-2021 06:12 PM
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Post: #37
RE: Retroactive War Gaming realignment
SWC poaching of Nebraska, OU, OSU, and Kansas (not sure in the last one)?

Eventually the B8 waited out the crumbling SWC. Internal conference reform would be needed to get the SWC healthy. Rumors at the time were that the top 4 from each were looking to form a new conference. This would be SWC’s Plan A, but likelihood is almost zero.
03-05-2021 09:32 PM
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