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Gonzaga considering opting out of the WCC tournament.
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46566 Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Gonzaga considering opting out of the WCC tournament.
(02-17-2021 01:01 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-17-2021 09:55 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(02-17-2021 09:42 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-17-2021 09:26 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I've been an Indiana Hoosier fan for many years and recall the days that Coach R. M. Knight contended the winners of Big Ten tournament should not be the automatic rep of the league in the NCAA tourney. He argued such an arrangement cheapened the regular season and minimized the achievement of the Big Ten regular season champion — and I agree. I would be OK with seeing the end of post-season league tourneys but realize that's not going to happen.

Well, that's because the culture in the B1G, like the PAC, was along the lines of what Knight described - revering the regular season and not having a conference tournament. Back in the 1970s and 1980s, it was a tradition that on the weekend most other major conferences were holding their tournaments, the B1G would have a final slate of regular season games with often the championship being on the line. The B1G and PAC have only been holding tournament for 20 or so years now.

The B1G could just abandon its tournament again any time it wants, but the NCAA rule is that if you hold a tournament the winner must be the auto-bid receiver. You can't have a tournament but give your auto-bid to the regular season champ. So that rule prevents the B1G from honoring its regular season champ the way its culture might want to, with the auto-bid. And that culture is not strong enough to overcome the money and exposure of having a tournament.


This is all accurate, indeed, QV.

I liked the day when the Big Ten had no tourney. But, admittedly, IU was much better back then (than it is now), and it was to the program's advantage for the league to not have a postseason event. Now it actually helps Indiana (at least in theory) that there is a Big Ten tourney.

Maybe I'm a hypocrite on this topic.

As someone who grew up in ACC territory and is a fan of a Big East team, I have always loved conference tournaments. IMO they are the gemstones of the ACC and Big East seasons.

But I agree, for the B1G and PAC they still feel out of place, twenty years later. A diversity of traditions and cultures is one of the things that makes college athletics interesting, and sadly, the economics forced monolithic adoption of these tournaments by all conferences, even those where it is a poor fit.

I too miss the days when say, circa 1988, Georgetown would be playing Syracuse in the Big East tournament final and on the same afternoon Indiana would be facing Iowa in their final regular season game for the Big 10 title.

As for the impact on making the NCAA tournament, I think the conference tournaments are a double-edge sword. They can allow a team on the bubble to make a run and seal the deal, or an early exit can knock a bubble team out. It just depends.

I always considered the conference tournaments as a late season NET or RPI boost games. Most are neutral site games that can boost your numbers if win. Even for the 1 bid leagues you may be looking at escaping the play in game.
02-17-2021 01:20 PM
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Post: #42
RE: Gonzaga considering opting out of the WCC tournament.
(02-17-2021 01:20 PM)46566 Wrote:  
(02-17-2021 01:01 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-17-2021 09:55 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(02-17-2021 09:42 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-17-2021 09:26 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I've been an Indiana Hoosier fan for many years and recall the days that Coach R. M. Knight contended the winners of Big Ten tournament should not be the automatic rep of the league in the NCAA tourney. He argued such an arrangement cheapened the regular season and minimized the achievement of the Big Ten regular season champion — and I agree. I would be OK with seeing the end of post-season league tourneys but realize that's not going to happen.

Well, that's because the culture in the B1G, like the PAC, was along the lines of what Knight described - revering the regular season and not having a conference tournament. Back in the 1970s and 1980s, it was a tradition that on the weekend most other major conferences were holding their tournaments, the B1G would have a final slate of regular season games with often the championship being on the line. The B1G and PAC have only been holding tournament for 20 or so years now.

The B1G could just abandon its tournament again any time it wants, but the NCAA rule is that if you hold a tournament the winner must be the auto-bid receiver. You can't have a tournament but give your auto-bid to the regular season champ. So that rule prevents the B1G from honoring its regular season champ the way its culture might want to, with the auto-bid. And that culture is not strong enough to overcome the money and exposure of having a tournament.


This is all accurate, indeed, QV.

I liked the day when the Big Ten had no tourney. But, admittedly, IU was much better back then (than it is now), and it was to the program's advantage for the league to not have a postseason event. Now it actually helps Indiana (at least in theory) that there is a Big Ten tourney.

Maybe I'm a hypocrite on this topic.

As someone who grew up in ACC territory and is a fan of a Big East team, I have always loved conference tournaments. IMO they are the gemstones of the ACC and Big East seasons.

But I agree, for the B1G and PAC they still feel out of place, twenty years later. A diversity of traditions and cultures is one of the things that makes college athletics interesting, and sadly, the economics forced monolithic adoption of these tournaments by all conferences, even those where it is a poor fit.

I too miss the days when say, circa 1988, Georgetown would be playing Syracuse in the Big East tournament final and on the same afternoon Indiana would be facing Iowa in their final regular season game for the Big 10 title.

As for the impact on making the NCAA tournament, I think the conference tournaments are a double-edge sword. They can allow a team on the bubble to make a run and seal the deal, or an early exit can knock a bubble team out. It just depends.

I always considered the conference tournaments as a late season NET or RPI boost games. Most are neutral site games that can boost your numbers if win. Even for the 1 bid leagues you may be looking at escaping the play in game.

in a weird way the play in game is great for those conferences. If they win that game they get 2 tourney units and that is a huge difference for them for the following 6 years.
02-17-2021 01:44 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Gonzaga considering opting out of the WCC tournament.
(02-17-2021 09:13 AM)stever20 Wrote:  what I think is so funny is the people complaining a lot about it are from P5 schools. How can Gonzaga rig this against us?

I know, right? Complain about RPI, stop traveling to non-major schools' courts, only travel for tournaments, and then get the NCAA to adopt NET, which pretty much cements a power conference hierarchy over the non- and mid-majors. Yes, the non-majors are truly ruining this for those poor, honest, hard-working major schools and conferences.

We see a sub-.500 team in the NET top 40, but, yeah, this is Gonzaga fixing the system.

FWIW, I don't see many conferences dealing with this issue. Even in a place like the MVC this year, or A10 on a regular basis. The switch from RPI to NET still hasn't resolved the major/non-major bias toward bids, and, imo, only exposes the seeding biases all the more. Like, I would hate to be either Drake or Loyola-Chicago this year and looking at this if either win the conference regular season title. At best, maybe it's enough to get the at-large if you skip and if the conference decides to continue with its tournament and crown that winner with the AQ. But, I can totally see it backfiring with seeding at the very least and an outright snub at worst. Like, if you're BYU and you skip...hello play-in game (I mean, really, what's their body of work suggesting otherwise?). Meanwhile, Gonzaga will be fine, and you just likely handed either Saint Mary's or San Francisco a bid and at a decent line.

This is something only Gonzaga can do without really hurting their seeding. The AAC frontrunner could pull it off, but I bet it hurts their line some. There's way too much risk for others to consider it.

It does beg the question about the best/most-deserving thing, though. As in, do conferences decide to hand AQ to the regular season champs, ala the old Ivy League way. And a subtle chuckle over the irony of the Ivy dropping that method for a smaller four-team tournament just to maybe see other conferences wrestling with the value of a conference tournament.
02-17-2021 02:00 PM
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Post: #44
RE: Gonzaga considering opting out of the WCC tournament.
(02-17-2021 02:00 PM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(02-17-2021 09:13 AM)stever20 Wrote:  what I think is so funny is the people complaining a lot about it are from P5 schools. How can Gonzaga rig this against us?

I know, right? Complain about RPI, stop traveling to non-major schools' courts, only travel for tournaments, and then get the NCAA to adopt NET, which pretty much cements a power conference hierarchy over the non- and mid-majors. Yes, the non-majors are truly ruining this for those poor, honest, hard-working major schools and conferences.

We see a sub-.500 team in the NET top 40, but, yeah, this is Gonzaga fixing the system.

FWIW, I don't see many conferences dealing with this issue. Even in a place like the MVC this year, or A10 on a regular basis. The switch from RPI to NET still hasn't resolved the major/non-major bias toward bids, and, imo, only exposes the seeding biases all the more. Like, I would hate to be either Drake or Loyola-Chicago this year and looking at this if either win the conference regular season title. At best, maybe it's enough to get the at-large if you skip and if the conference decides to continue with its tournament and crown that winner with the AQ. But, I can totally see it backfiring with seeding at the very least and an outright snub at worst. Like, if you're BYU and you skip...hello play-in game (I mean, really, what's their body of work suggesting otherwise?). Meanwhile, Gonzaga will be fine, and you just likely handed either Saint Mary's or San Francisco a bid and at a decent line.

This is something only Gonzaga can do without really hurting their seeding. The AAC frontrunner could pull it off, but I bet it hurts their line some. There's way too much risk for others to consider it.

It does beg the question about the best/most-deserving thing, though. As in, do conferences decide to hand AQ to the regular season champs, ala the old Ivy League way. And a subtle chuckle over the irony of the Ivy dropping that method for a smaller four-team tournament just to maybe see other conferences wrestling with the value of a conference tournament.
Oh I could see Houston taking it off. Maybe it takes them from a 2 to a 3. Not that big of a deal.

What it's going to do though is if that happens- you have 2 teams that are in that would be out. Right now that'd be Colorado St and Stanford according to Lunardi.
02-17-2021 02:05 PM
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Post: #45
RE: Gonzaga considering opting out of the WCC tournament.
(02-17-2021 06:45 AM)schmolik Wrote:  If Gonzaga and BYU don't play in the WCC Tournament, the NCAA shouldn't recognize the WCC Tournament champion as their champion. That's clearly abuse of the system. The WCC probably won't do it but they should just cancel their tournament altogether if Gonzaga and BYU doesn't want to play it. If Gonzaga doesn't play but BYU does, I might be OK with it but that's pushing it. If one of the teams upsets BYU you can argue they earned a spot.

Why would the WCC punish every other team in the league?

I guess that's why you're not a conference commissioner!04-cheers
02-17-2021 02:24 PM
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Post: #46
RE: Gonzaga considering opting out of the WCC tournament.
(02-17-2021 09:42 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-17-2021 09:26 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I've been an Indiana Hoosier fan for many years and recall the days that Coach R. M. Knight contended the winners of Big Ten tournament should not be the automatic rep of the league in the NCAA tourney. He argued such an arrangement cheapened the regular season and minimized the achievement of the Big Ten regular season champion — and I agree. I would be OK with seeing the end of post-season league tourneys but realize that's not going to happen.

Well, that's because the culture in the B1G, like the PAC, was along the lines of what Knight described - revering the regular season and not having a conference tournament. Back in the 1970s and 1980s, it was a tradition that on the weekend most other major conferences were holding their tournaments, the B1G would have a final slate of regular season games with often the championship being on the line. The B1G and PAC have only been holding tournament for 20 or so years now.

The B1G could just abandon its tournament again any time it wants, but the NCAA rule is that if you hold a tournament the winner must be the auto-bid receiver. You can't have a tournament but give your auto-bid to the regular season champ. So that rule prevents the B1G from honoring its regular season champ the way its culture might want to, with the auto-bid. And that culture is not strong enough to overcome the money and exposure of having a tournament.

That was EVERYBODY's tradition. Prior to the late 70s, it was only the ACC that had the conference tourney. Then the NCAA expanded and everybody figured out they could make big $$s on it.
02-17-2021 02:26 PM
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Post: #47
RE: Gonzaga considering opting out of the WCC tournament.
It's foolish to argue that the NCAA should "close the loophole" or punish teams or conferences this year. If they did that this year, and a "lock" team played in its conference tournament and subsequently had to miss the NCAA tournament due to covid cases, then people would blame the NCAA.

The "closure" starting next year could be something like this: If a team opts out of its conference tournament but then is selected for the NCAA tournament and doesn't opt out of the NCAA tournament, then the autobid for that team's conference goes to the regular season champ and not the conference tournament champ.
(This post was last modified: 02-17-2021 03:40 PM by Wedge.)
02-17-2021 03:36 PM
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Post: #48
RE: Gonzaga considering opting out of the WCC tournament.
(02-17-2021 03:36 PM)Wedge Wrote:  It's foolish to argue that the NCAA should "close the loophole" or punish teams or conferences this year. If they did that this year, and a "lock" team played in its conference tournament and subsequently had to miss the NCAA tournament due to covid cases, then people would blame the NCAA.

The "closure" starting next year could be something like this: If a team opts out of its conference tournament but then is selected for the NCAA tournament and doesn't opt out of the NCAA tournament, then the autobid for that team's conference goes to the regular season champ and not the conference tournament champ.

right, there's nothing the NCAA can do this year at all. Not at all.
02-17-2021 04:08 PM
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Post: #49
RE: Gonzaga considering opting out of the WCC tournament.
The NCAA may need to adjust the ByLaws to say an AQ awarded by tournament must include all tournament eligible teams (i.e., those with records .500 or better).
(This post was last modified: 02-17-2021 04:31 PM by Stugray2.)
02-17-2021 04:31 PM
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quo vadis Online
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Post: #50
RE: Gonzaga considering opting out of the WCC tournament.
(02-17-2021 02:26 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(02-17-2021 09:42 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-17-2021 09:26 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I've been an Indiana Hoosier fan for many years and recall the days that Coach R. M. Knight contended the winners of Big Ten tournament should not be the automatic rep of the league in the NCAA tourney. He argued such an arrangement cheapened the regular season and minimized the achievement of the Big Ten regular season champion — and I agree. I would be OK with seeing the end of post-season league tourneys but realize that's not going to happen.

Well, that's because the culture in the B1G, like the PAC, was along the lines of what Knight described - revering the regular season and not having a conference tournament. Back in the 1970s and 1980s, it was a tradition that on the weekend most other major conferences were holding their tournaments, the B1G would have a final slate of regular season games with often the championship being on the line. The B1G and PAC have only been holding tournament for 20 or so years now.

The B1G could just abandon its tournament again any time it wants, but the NCAA rule is that if you hold a tournament the winner must be the auto-bid receiver. You can't have a tournament but give your auto-bid to the regular season champ. So that rule prevents the B1G from honoring its regular season champ the way its culture might want to, with the auto-bid. And that culture is not strong enough to overcome the money and exposure of having a tournament.

That was EVERYBODY's tradition. Prior to the late 70s, it was only the ACC that had the conference tourney. Then the NCAA expanded and everybody figured out they could make big $$s on it.

Well, the SEC is a strange case. It had a tournament from the 1930s to the 1950s that predated the ACC tournament, and then they restarted it in 1979.
02-17-2021 05:13 PM
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Post: #51
RE: Gonzaga considering opting out of the WCC tournament.
(02-17-2021 04:31 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  The NCAA may need to adjust the ByLaws to say an AQ awarded by tournament must include all tournament eligible teams (i.e., those with records .500 or better).

yeah but too late for this year.
02-17-2021 06:00 PM
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Post: #52
RE: Gonzaga considering opting out of the WCC tournament.
IMHO during COVID, teams that know they will make the NCAA tournament probably shouldn’t be playing in conference tournaments. Nowadays, conference tournaments have been reduced to money grabs. Since fans can’t attend in-person, this year’s conference tournaments are about TV contracts. Conferences that don’t have big TV contracts, would be better-off reducing the size of their tournaments (model is the Ivy League). For conferences with lots of TV payouts (e.g., P6), it would be a COVID exception to have fewer participants.

It’s just risky to bring lots of teams together for large tournaments...small tournaments seem like a safer approach. Plus it helps the NCAA in conducting its tournament.
02-17-2021 06:05 PM
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Post: #53
RE: Gonzaga considering opting out of the WCC tournament.
(02-17-2021 03:36 PM)Wedge Wrote:  The "closure" starting next year could be something like this: If a team opts out of its conference tournament but then is selected for the NCAA tournament and doesn't opt out of the NCAA tournament, then the autobid for that team's conference goes to the regular season champ and not the conference tournament champ.

That would cause chaos amongst conferences.
02-17-2021 07:35 PM
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Post: #54
RE: Gonzaga considering opting out of the WCC tournament.
I feel conference tournaments are really really big deal to ACC and Big East conferences in particular. The Big East Tournament in MGS it just was the highlight and same for ACC . The other basketball leagues I don’t feel have that affinity for their individual conference tournaments. Wish SU could play football in ACC and BB in Big East
02-17-2021 08:02 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Gonzaga considering opting out of the WCC tournament.
(02-17-2021 07:35 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(02-17-2021 03:36 PM)Wedge Wrote:  The "closure" starting next year could be something like this: If a team opts out of its conference tournament but then is selected for the NCAA tournament and doesn't opt out of the NCAA tournament, then the autobid for that team's conference goes to the regular season champ and not the conference tournament champ.

That would cause chaos amongst conferences.

It would not cause any chaos.

If a team declares it's not going to take part in the NCAA tournament -- e.g., this year, Arizona and Auburn have "self imposed" postseason bans due to stuff revealed in the federal investigation and ongoing NCAA investigations -- then a conference could still give its autobid to the tournament champ. If a bad team fires its coach and then declares it's not interested in postseason play, that also has no effect on the conference. It's only in the case where a strong team bypasses its conference tournament in order to go directly to the NCAA tournament where this would apply and give the autobid to the regular season champ.

If a conference doesn't want its conference tournament to become a no-autobid event, then the conference is free to require all of its members to play in the conference tournament. Again, because of the pandemic, none of this applies in 2021.
02-17-2021 08:21 PM
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Post: #56
RE: Gonzaga considering opting out of the WCC tournament.
I can’t imagine ESPN would be okay with this in any other year.

I do question the motives (outside of $$) of avoiding a conference tourney against teams you’ve been playing all year long (and where you’re familiar with their WuFlu protocols) vs going to a bubble with 67 (no, 65/66) random teams. Looks like a money grab by the WCC, Gonzaga and BYU to me.
02-17-2021 09:30 PM
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Post: #57
RE: Gonzaga considering opting out of the WCC tournament.
(02-17-2021 04:31 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  The NCAA may need to adjust the ByLaws to say an AQ awarded by tournament must include all tournament eligible teams (i.e., those with records .500 or better).

I'm actually for losing record teams in the NCAA. If the conference tournaments should mean anything then a losing record team winning the tournament should qualify them for the NCAA tournament. It's not like it happens every year. Even low ranked conferences wouldn't mind as it should be a easy play in game win.
If if conferences wanted to bar losing record teams then simply cap the conference tournaments to a low amount of seeds. It's a conference issue and not a NCAA issue. If you don't want to limit the games or act like your barring teams then stack the deck like most conferences do. The low end WCC schools have to go through 3 rounds to get to the top 2 seeds. The PAC 12 has basically a play in game for its bottom 4. Most P5 plus big east have built in ways to eliminate bad record runs.
02-18-2021 02:00 AM
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Post: #58
RE: Gonzaga considering opting out of the WCC tournament.
(02-17-2021 09:30 PM)VCE Wrote:  Looks like a money grab by the WCC, Gonzaga and BYU to me.

I honestly don’t know why BYU would sit out. They’re within the top 30, but the resume isn’t impressive. 3-3 versus tier one, but who are the tournament-level teams there? Do they have a person on the selection committee still?

I can see the desire for the cash grab, but I suspect Gonzaga is hard driven to win a title. I think this year’s team can do it, they clearly look better than most everyone else this year. You have to do what you can to avoid risk and protect those chances.

I’m sure Gonzaga will take any extra money that comes from this, but, I’m more concerned how they’re avoiding more WCC games. They don’t seem to want to be there. Weren’t they attempting to schedule good non-conference games when some of the WCC games were postponed/canceled?
(This post was last modified: 02-18-2021 06:06 AM by The Cutter of Bish.)
02-18-2021 06:05 AM
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Post: #59
RE: Gonzaga considering opting out of the WCC tournament.
(02-18-2021 06:05 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(02-17-2021 09:30 PM)VCE Wrote:  Looks like a money grab by the WCC, Gonzaga and BYU to me.

I honestly don’t know why BYU would sit out. They’re within the top 30, but the resume isn’t impressive. 3-3 versus tier one, but who are the tournament-level teams there? Do they have a person on the selection committee still?

I can see the desire for the cash grab, but I suspect Gonzaga is hard driven to win a title. I think this year’s team can do it, they clearly look better than most everyone else this year. You have to do what you can to avoid risk and protect those chances.

I’m sure Gonzaga will take any extra money that comes from this, but, I’m more concerned how they’re avoiding more WCC games. They don’t seem to want to be there. Weren’t they attempting to schedule good non-conference games when some of the WCC games were postponed/canceled?

Gonzaga wants to play as little WCC games as possible. They got the conference to cut to 16 games instead of doing a full 18 game round robin
02-18-2021 08:51 AM
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RE: Gonzaga considering opting out of the WCC tournament.
(02-18-2021 08:51 AM)solohawks Wrote:  
(02-18-2021 06:05 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(02-17-2021 09:30 PM)VCE Wrote:  Looks like a money grab by the WCC, Gonzaga and BYU to me.

I honestly don’t know why BYU would sit out. They’re within the top 30, but the resume isn’t impressive. 3-3 versus tier one, but who are the tournament-level teams there? Do they have a person on the selection committee still?

I can see the desire for the cash grab, but I suspect Gonzaga is hard driven to win a title. I think this year’s team can do it, they clearly look better than most everyone else this year. You have to do what you can to avoid risk and protect those chances.

I’m sure Gonzaga will take any extra money that comes from this, but, I’m more concerned how they’re avoiding more WCC games. They don’t seem to want to be there. Weren’t they attempting to schedule good non-conference games when some of the WCC games were postponed/canceled?

Gonzaga wants to play as little WCC games as possible. They got the conference to cut to 16 games instead of doing a full 18 game round robin

It's probably better for their brand to put together a stronger, national focused OOC rather than the weaker WCC schedule. The extra NET or Quadrant wins might help a NCAA resume for seeding purposes, not necessarily this year, but certainly that has been the case before and will be again in the future.
02-18-2021 09:21 AM
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