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GoodOwl Offline
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Post: #361
Question RE: MLB 2021 Thread
Back-to-back wins over Clayton Kershaw and Trevor Bauer for Braves. Only a regular-season series, so it doesn't make up for last year's postseason, but we'll take it.
06-06-2021 06:40 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #362
RE: MLB 2021 Thread
(05-27-2021 03:46 PM)stever20 Wrote:  
(05-27-2021 03:07 PM)Wedge Wrote:  All those Tommy John surgeries -- combination of the gunk that pitchers put on the ball plus the all-out effort to increase spin rate?

yup.

And the thing is- we're not even at the part of the season where the much longer season this year will factor into things. It's just going to get worse.

Here's an article about Spider Tack, one of the stickiest substances pitchers are using to increase spin rate. It was invented by a bodybuilder (and grad student) who used it to grip heavy stones that weigh more than 100 pounds each.

He quickly recognized that pitchers could mess up their arms by using it, because he himself tore a muscle in each arm while lifting one of those big stones.

https://theathletic.com/2631711/2021/06/...d-no-idea/
Quote:Spider Tack is serious stuff, Caruso says, so sticky that he tore the short head of both of his biceps using it. Once, while lifting an Atlas Stone onto its platform, Caruso’s hands and arms, coated in tacky, were completely stuck to the stone. Too stuck. The lift overly strained the short head, a small muscle in the inner arm. So, while we’re at it, Caruso would advise pitchers to skimp on the Spider Tack.

“I’m kind of inquisitive now to learn more about it,” he says,

Caruso turns from safety concerns to spin efficiency. He’s in the weeds now.

“I would imagine that you’d have to be pretty careful,” he says. “If you had too much on (your fingers) that may inhibit or even screw up your throw. That seems kind of risky. It could work against you.”
06-07-2021 04:09 PM
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stever20 Offline
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Post: #363
RE: MLB 2021 Thread
yeah, I'd say he's not that innocent...

06-09-2021 09:55 AM
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GoodOwl Offline
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Post: #364
Question RE: MLB 2021 Thread
Here we are at .500 yet again. Haven't been over all season. Will have to win 2 more from Phils if that's to be this series.
At least taking some comfort in Yankers losing streak.

Metz are good, but not that good. Someone in division needs to come after them. Also, I'm remaining surprised by the Gints playing so well in that brutal division of theirs. Wish Swoosh was here to comment.



(This post was last modified: 06-09-2021 05:08 PM by GoodOwl.)
06-09-2021 11:00 AM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #365
RE: MLB 2021 Thread
(06-09-2021 09:55 AM)stever20 Wrote:  yeah, I'd say he's not that innocent...


Someone should tell Cole that MLB already has rules that allow the commissioner's office to discipline him for using Spider Tack.
06-09-2021 11:26 AM
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Brookes Owl Offline
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Post: #366
RE: MLB 2021 Thread
I'm gonna sound like a Bauer apologist here - and I'm REALLY sorry for that - but his non-answer is pretty understandable. Sticky stuff has been used league-wide for a long time, the league has never consistently enforced the rules, and it's not clear yet what they're going to do. If he admits it here, he's busted and who knows what happens. If he says no but he HAS used it (and evidence comes in later) he's MORE busted. If he says no because he used some other product then he's just parsing and looks like an a-hole. This response certainly doesn't make him look good but I'm not sure what response would have looked/sounded better.
06-09-2021 12:28 PM
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GoodOwl Offline
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Post: #367
Question RE: MLB 2021 Thread
(06-09-2021 11:26 AM)Wedge Wrote:  
(06-09-2021 09:55 AM)stever20 Wrote:  yeah, I'd say he's not that innocent...


Someone should tell Cole that MLB already has rules that allow the commissioner's office to discipline him for using Spider Tack.


that was certainly a looooooooooooong 13 second pause.
06-09-2021 12:57 PM
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Erictelevision Offline
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Post: #368
RE: MLB 2021 Thread
Brookes: he could man up and admit to what substance he DOES use.
06-09-2021 04:22 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #369
RE: MLB 2021 Thread
(06-09-2021 12:28 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  I'm gonna sound like a Bauer apologist here - and I'm REALLY sorry for that - but his non-answer is pretty understandable. Sticky stuff has been used league-wide for a long time, the league has never consistently enforced the rules, and it's not clear yet what they're going to do. If he admits it here, he's busted and who knows what happens. If he says no but he HAS used it (and evidence comes in later) he's MORE busted. If he says no because he used some other product then he's just parsing and looks like an a-hole. This response certainly doesn't make him look good but I'm not sure what response would have looked/sounded better.

That's Gerrit Cole above with the evasive non-answer, not Bauer.

Sure, he has no good answer there, but consider that we could replace "Sticky stuff" with "Steroids" in your comment and then we'd be talking about Mark McGwire in 1998.
06-09-2021 04:38 PM
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GoodOwl Offline
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Post: #370
Question RE: MLB 2021 Thread
(06-09-2021 04:38 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(06-09-2021 12:28 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  I'm gonna sound like a Bauer apologist here - and I'm REALLY sorry for that - but his non-answer is pretty understandable. Sticky stuff has been used league-wide for a long time, the league has never consistently enforced the rules, and it's not clear yet what they're going to do. If he admits it here, he's busted and who knows what happens. If he says no but he HAS used it (and evidence comes in later) he's MORE busted. If he says no because he used some other product then he's just parsing and looks like an a-hole. This response certainly doesn't make him look good but I'm not sure what response would have looked/sounded better.

That's Gerrit Cole above with the evasive non-answer, not Bauer.

Sure, he has no good answer there, but consider that we could replace "Sticky stuff" with "Steroids" in your comment and then we'd be talking about Mark McGwire in 1998.

"I'm not here to talk about the past...."



(This post was last modified: 06-09-2021 05:10 PM by GoodOwl.)
06-09-2021 05:07 PM
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Brookes Owl Offline
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Post: #371
RE: MLB 2021 Thread
(06-09-2021 04:38 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(06-09-2021 12:28 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  I'm gonna sound like a Bauer apologist here - and I'm REALLY sorry for that - but his non-answer is pretty understandable. Sticky stuff has been used league-wide for a long time, the league has never consistently enforced the rules, and it's not clear yet what they're going to do. If he admits it here, he's busted and who knows what happens. If he says no but he HAS used it (and evidence comes in later) he's MORE busted. If he says no because he used some other product then he's just parsing and looks like an a-hole. This response certainly doesn't make him look good but I'm not sure what response would have looked/sounded better.

That's Gerrit Cole above with the evasive non-answer, not Bauer.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic/satirical, or if you really think I missed something but just in case: I know who it is, and I typed Bauer because he's a known foreign substance user and sticking up for Cole sounds an awful lot like sticking up for Bauer, particularly as a Dodgers fan.

Quote:Sure, he has no good answer there, but consider that we could replace "Sticky stuff" with "Steroids" in your comment and then we'd be talking about Mark McGwire in 1998.

I get the analogy but there are important differences, in particular that MLB has treated pine tar/stickum/spider tack/etc enforcement with a wink. MLB has allowed pitchers to use sticky substances with impunity as long as they are discreet about it - for years.
06-09-2021 05:38 PM
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GoodOwl Offline
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Post: #372
Question RE: MLB 2021 Thread
Jose Canseco has a fun chat with Pete Rose and Frank Thomas:


06-09-2021 06:02 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #373
RE: MLB 2021 Thread
(06-09-2021 05:38 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  
(06-09-2021 04:38 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(06-09-2021 12:28 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  I'm gonna sound like a Bauer apologist here - and I'm REALLY sorry for that - but his non-answer is pretty understandable. Sticky stuff has been used league-wide for a long time, the league has never consistently enforced the rules, and it's not clear yet what they're going to do. If he admits it here, he's busted and who knows what happens. If he says no but he HAS used it (and evidence comes in later) he's MORE busted. If he says no because he used some other product then he's just parsing and looks like an a-hole. This response certainly doesn't make him look good but I'm not sure what response would have looked/sounded better.

That's Gerrit Cole above with the evasive non-answer, not Bauer.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic/satirical, or if you really think I missed something but just in case: I know who it is, and I typed Bauer because he's a known foreign substance user and sticking up for Cole sounds an awful lot like sticking up for Bauer, particularly as a Dodgers fan.

Quote:Sure, he has no good answer there, but consider that we could replace "Sticky stuff" with "Steroids" in your comment and then we'd be talking about Mark McGwire in 1998.

I get the analogy but there are important differences, in particular that MLB has treated pine tar/stickum/spider tack/etc enforcement with a wink. MLB has allowed pitchers to use sticky substances with impunity as long as they are discreet about it - for years.

MLB had the same approach to steroids in 1998 when McGwire was BSing about it. MLB didn't begin testing players until 2003 and didn't start disciplining players for positive tests until the 2004 season.
06-09-2021 07:22 PM
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GoodOwl Offline
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Post: #374
Question RE: MLB 2021 Thread
My personal take is I'd like Pete and Shoeless in the HOF, but not Bonds, Clemens, McGwire and the 'roid boys.

I think the tacky stuff needs to be addressed, but it's gonna be sticky for a while, I think.


(This post was last modified: 06-10-2021 05:57 PM by GoodOwl.)
06-10-2021 05:56 PM
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Brookes Owl Offline
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Post: #375
RE: MLB 2021 Thread
(06-09-2021 07:22 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(06-09-2021 05:38 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  
(06-09-2021 04:38 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(06-09-2021 12:28 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  I'm gonna sound like a Bauer apologist here - and I'm REALLY sorry for that - but his non-answer is pretty understandable. Sticky stuff has been used league-wide for a long time, the league has never consistently enforced the rules, and it's not clear yet what they're going to do. If he admits it here, he's busted and who knows what happens. If he says no but he HAS used it (and evidence comes in later) he's MORE busted. If he says no because he used some other product then he's just parsing and looks like an a-hole. This response certainly doesn't make him look good but I'm not sure what response would have looked/sounded better.

That's Gerrit Cole above with the evasive non-answer, not Bauer.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic/satirical, or if you really think I missed something but just in case: I know who it is, and I typed Bauer because he's a known foreign substance user and sticking up for Cole sounds an awful lot like sticking up for Bauer, particularly as a Dodgers fan.

Quote:Sure, he has no good answer there, but consider that we could replace "Sticky stuff" with "Steroids" in your comment and then we'd be talking about Mark McGwire in 1998.

I get the analogy but there are important differences, in particular that MLB has treated pine tar/stickum/spider tack/etc enforcement with a wink. MLB has allowed pitchers to use sticky substances with impunity as long as they are discreet about it - for years.

MLB had the same approach to steroids in 1998 when McGwire was BSing about it. MLB didn't begin testing players until 2003 and didn't start disciplining players for positive tests until the 2004 season.

Pine tar or variations have been around for much longer than steroids. While a foreign substance, for a long time it was even considered a safety measure - one of the reasons it wasn't given as much scrutiny. But we went from safety to spin rate and there's just no way to say "x" is too much but "y" is ok. The idea that MLB is using spin rates to determine which pitchers are abusing is nuts. Akin to saying players who hit too many HRs were juicing. They may have been but that's ****** evidence.
(This post was last modified: 06-10-2021 06:54 PM by Brookes Owl.)
06-10-2021 06:06 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #376
RE: MLB 2021 Thread
(06-10-2021 06:06 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  
(06-09-2021 07:22 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(06-09-2021 05:38 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  
(06-09-2021 04:38 PM)Wedge Wrote:  
(06-09-2021 12:28 PM)Brookes Owl Wrote:  I'm gonna sound like a Bauer apologist here - and I'm REALLY sorry for that - but his non-answer is pretty understandable. Sticky stuff has been used league-wide for a long time, the league has never consistently enforced the rules, and it's not clear yet what they're going to do. If he admits it here, he's busted and who knows what happens. If he says no but he HAS used it (and evidence comes in later) he's MORE busted. If he says no because he used some other product then he's just parsing and looks like an a-hole. This response certainly doesn't make him look good but I'm not sure what response would have looked/sounded better.

That's Gerrit Cole above with the evasive non-answer, not Bauer.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic/satirical, or if you really think I missed something but just in case: I know who it is, and I typed Bauer because he's a known foreign substance user and sticking up for Cole sounds an awful lot like sticking up for Bauer, particularly as a Dodgers fan.

Quote:Sure, he has no good answer there, but consider that we could replace "Sticky stuff" with "Steroids" in your comment and then we'd be talking about Mark McGwire in 1998.

I get the analogy but there are important differences, in particular that MLB has treated pine tar/stickum/spider tack/etc enforcement with a wink. MLB has allowed pitchers to use sticky substances with impunity as long as they are discreet about it - for years.

MLB had the same approach to steroids in 1998 when McGwire was BSing about it. MLB didn't begin testing players until 2003 and didn't start disciplining players for positive tests until the 2004 season.

Pine tar or variations have been around for much longer than steroids. While a foreign substance, for a long time it was even considered a safety measure - one of the reasons it wasn't given as much scrutiny. But we went from safety to spin rate and there's just no way to say "x" is too much but "y" is ok. The idea that MLB is using spin rates to determine which pitchers are abusing is nuts. Akin to saying players who hit too many HRs were juicing. They may have been but that's ****** evidence.

Things like pine tar have been around forever, but apparently Spider Tack and similar concoctions are more effective in generating spin and other ball movement on pitches.

Amphetamines were widely used, and openly used, in baseball in the 1950s and 1960s, long before steroids and other "modern" PEDs, but the newer PEDs are much more effective. And 'roids have been in MLB since at least the early 1980s, when there started to be "performance anomalies" that look pretty suspicious in retrospect, knowing what we know now about PEDs.
06-11-2021 12:51 AM
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Brookes Owl Offline
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Post: #377
RE: MLB 2021 Thread
(06-11-2021 12:51 AM)Wedge Wrote:  Things like pine tar have been around forever, but apparently Spider Tack and similar concoctions are more effective in generating spin and other ball movement on pitches.

Amphetamines were widely used, and openly used, in baseball in the 1950s and 1960s, long before steroids and other "modern" PEDs, but the newer PEDs are much more effective. And 'roids have been in MLB since at least the early 1980s, when there started to be "performance anomalies" that look pretty suspicious in retrospect, knowing what we know now about PEDs.

I think we probably ought to agree to disagree at this point, but a couple of thoughts: Pine tar vs spider tack, etc. is exactly the point. One sticky thing is no big deal but another is, and that's ridiculous. I'm not saying it should be legal I'm saying it's understandable why a pitcher would struggle to answer the question Cole was asked.

I'm just not gonna buy the PED comp. Steroid use wasn't banned until the early 90s and it wasn't widely tested (which means it wasn't REALLY banned) until 2003. Foreign substances on the ball have been "banned" but widely used for how many decades?
(This post was last modified: 06-11-2021 02:30 AM by Brookes Owl.)
06-11-2021 02:30 AM
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Erictelevision Offline
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Post: #378
RE: MLB 2021 Thread
Wedge: what performances from the 80s look dubious in retrospect? It was before I started watching baseball.
06-11-2021 11:32 AM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #379
RE: MLB 2021 Thread
(06-11-2021 11:32 AM)Erictelevision Wrote:  Wedge: what performances from the 80s look dubious in retrospect? It was before I started watching baseball.

IMO:

Hitters who made a gigantic leap in power numbers later in their career. Some of those guys maintained the power surge. Others had one or two fluke seasons that seem inexplicable. Brady Anderson comes to mind, though he played in the 1990s. Consecutive seasons of 16, 50, and 18 home runs.

Players who were amazingly good in their late 30s or early 40s well beyond the norm for even elite athletes in their sport. Before there was Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens doing amazing things at that age, there was Nolan Ryan.

From the late 1980s on, anyone who was doing things as well as known dopers ought to be at least suspicious. Remember when Lance Armstrong kept telling us he was riding clean and winning the Tour de France 7 years in a row over guys who were busted for doping or admitted to it? Remember how dumb we were to believe that BS?
06-11-2021 12:43 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #380
RE: MLB 2021 Thread
Quote:The Athletic
@TheAthletic

Here are the MLB starting pitchers with the most 100.0+ mph pitches this season.

There's a clear leader

Gerrit Cole: 9
Shohei Ohtani: 9
Shane McClanahan: 10
Jacob deGrom: 121

(H/T @SlangsOnSports )

1:28 PM · Jun 11, 2021 · TweetDeck
06-11-2021 03:41 PM
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