The unofficial online home for fans of the Old Dominion University Monarchs. Part of Collegiate Sports Nation (CSN).

(03-12-2021 12:43 PM)odu09 Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 12:21 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 11:50 AM)odu09 Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 11:35 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  No, we don't quite have the same problems as everyone else and we are not on equal footing. We are outliers. The travel isn't nearly as bad for most of the others. If we moved to the A10 and were still "middling" then there would be a stronger case that JJ is the main problem. I'm no fan fan of JJ, but I don't think replacing him is going to fix anything, unless we roll the dice and replace him with someone who cheats. We need out of this conference for a lot of reasons that have been discussed at length and even the admin and Baghdad Bob agree. This is just one of those reasons.

But why would the A10 be willing to take a middling team from a one-bid league? This is like a chicken and egg situation. I think we need to show possible future conference leadership our commitment to basketball excellence, and keeping JJ does not show that.

Why? Because our presence would reduce costs for most of the conference, create more demand for regional TV games, and significantly increase attendance at the conference tournament (the big money maker) most years. We offer the conference more than anyone else they could get even as a middling team.

1. Reduced travel costs is probably minimal when they are already regionalized.
2. How has our impact gone in terms of market presence? So far if you look at cusa media deals, we've made 0 impact to that.
3. Increased attendance at a tournament... a once a year event ticket sales? Huh.

Not to mention A10 would be losing shares of their basketball tournament payouts by adding another team. And it's not like we are a good investment in those terms... how many NCAA tournament credits have we earned in the lifetime of the program?

FWIW my dream is A10 bball and whatever happens to football happens (prefer FBS indy with scheduling alliance). But I don't think we are exactly a slam dunk add.

1. Reduced travel costs is probably minimal when they are already regionalized.

The A10 is not regionalized. And if it were to become regionalized by adding us, that would only work in our favor because the outlier schools would have less reason to object.

2. How has our impact gone in terms of market presence? So far if you look at cusa media deals, we've made 0 impact to that.

CUSA has 0 teams in the same region as us (Washington DC) so you are correct that there is no value as there is 0 chance that any game is going to go on regional TV (much less national) with only one team in the region, unless that team is Maryland or maybe Georgetown. The A10 has 4 teams in the region. Assuming we'd play each of those schools twice that is 8 potential additional regional TV games. Even if only 2 get picked up, that's significant value.

3. Increased attendance at a tournament... a once a year event ticket sales? Huh.

Yes, the tournament is THE money maker for mid major conferences.

Not to mention A10 would be losing shares of their basketball tournament payouts by adding another team. And it's not like we are a good investment in those terms... how many NCAA tournament credits have we earned in the lifetime of the program?

Would not be a significant impact. A10 credits are not distributed evenly like they are here and were in CUSA. The team that earned the credits receive the vast majority of the money (I believe it is 75%).

(03-12-2021 10:07 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  While I am convinced that the current state of ODU basketball is unacceptable, I am not convinced JJ is the problem. We have to find a way to remove the obstacles and get into a conference that makes sense for us. I'm afraid a new coach would just be sweeping sand from one side of the room to the other.

Not, if he can recruit freshmen that are good enough to play right away. Remember the coach that went to NC STATE, after he built UNCW to a contender. We need more of a recruiter than coaching, now.

(03-12-2021 10:12 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 09:42 AM)ODUBB35 Wrote:  First of all, I want to thank JJ, staff, and players for an entertaining last few months. It was quite a remarkable turnaround after a horrible start and the monstrosity that was last season. Honestly, after being blown out by FIU in the conference opener, I wondered if we would win another game all season. To go from that to splitting with UAB and WKU on the road to get the double-bye in the tournament was quite a feat, and may have been JJ's best coaching job to date. He got the team playing hard together in a tough situation, and is correct that they came along way this season.

However, this last month or so was enjoyable because our lowered expectations due to shoddy play early on allowed us to separate this season from the big picture. The reality is that we were not that good, and that the #2 seed in the East was likely a fortunate result of scheduling cancellations. We were able to avoid series with LA Tech, North Texas, both of whom Marshall played (though they were able to avoid UAB). Not to get too far into hypotheticals, but scheduling those two would likely have resulted in at least two more losses (and I'm not sure we would have swept UTEP or UTSA either). Not to take away from the gritty efforts of the last few weeks, but a full schedule would have likely revealed that we are a mediocre team in a conference that isn't all that good. That's the reality of the big picture, and that reality hit home last night.

As Giles stated, we lost to a better team, and it's hard to overcome 21 points from 3 pointers (it was actually 27, but the point is taken). They hit 9-20 from downtown. All true, and the Monarchs put forth a solid effort despite being smaller and less talented. We got very little from Reece or Green. Hunter had been playing so well lately, but had an off night. If he hits a few of those shots, it's a different ball game.

But the big picture question: Why is North Texas more talented? Yes, they are a veteran group but so are we. I'm tired of hearing that it's because we are in CUSA. That fact hasn't stopped North Texas from recruiting talent. How the hell is North Texas outrecruiting us? They have neither the facilities, the budget, not the history that we have.

Ezikpe and Trice are warriors, but for those who think that size doesn't matter, UNT proved otherwise. Their frontline was 6'10" and 6'10" as opposed to our 6'7" and 6'8" (and those heights are doubtful, I would put Trice closer to 6'5"). It wasn't an effort issue from our guys. It came down to size (again, recruiting).

Don't look now, but teams like Rice and FAU are gaining on us. UNT and Marshall have already passed us by. JMU is also in our rearview mirror while we are stagnant. We need a change.

Granted, it took Kermit Davis 10 years are so to have success at MTSU, and once they lost him, they haven't been the same. W&M got rid of the only coach that even had moderate success, and they stink. However, they have always stunk.

So yes, there is a risk that we could end up biting pillows if we change coaches. I just don't see us going anywhere with the status quo. So many schools land bigs and shooters and we can't seem to land any. I know it's all hypothetical, and the late season run gave us just enough confidence to say "wait until next year". But I don't want to wait around for Bryant Stith's grandsons to take us to our next title. It's time for a change.

We hit 2 threes, they hit 9.

Remember we are without possibly our best player this year. I don't want to make excuses, you have to play with what you have, but I don't know that they out recruited us. We essentially played them toe to toe without Wade. Granted, we have to get better but it's a little too soon to say they've passed us. Marshall certainly has not, what have they ever done to pass us? They are a perinnial 150 team (last 5 years have seen 147, 149, 105, 157, 143) before they just had their best year under D'Antoni (before the quick exit). Rice is barely a top 200 team. We were significantly better than JMU.

They didn't beat us because of the front court battle. There 2 went for 17 points and 11 rebounds on 15 shots while ours went for 15 points and 7 rebounds on 13 shots. They won because they have guys that can hit open 3 pointers. In a low possession game, you cannot be outscored by 20 points behind the arc and expect to win. McBride, Reece, and Bell can all shoot. We got Hunter, Curry, Oliver jacking up 3s like they can shoot but are all low 30s 3 point shooters.

I always felt that this team would take us as far as Green would take us. Im surprised we won as many games as we did with how bad he was offensively.

Hunter and Long came on as the year progressed and hopefully they improve with a real offseason. We are going to need more from Oliver and Reece next year.

Agree with a lot of your points outside of the doom and gloom program outlook. Also don't agree with the bigs comment. Im not opposed to letting Jones enjoy retirement either.

By your own numbers their bigs out scored and out rebounded our bigs. That alone shows a need for improvement. It is worth noting that ODU also typically doubles when the ball is thrown into the post so it isn't a one for one comparison either. If ODU's post players WERE bigger guys then Jeff might not feel the need to double the post as frequently leaving 3 point shooters open. Also, just because the North Texas post players only scored 17 points doesn't necessarily tell an accurate story when as a team they shot 45% on 20 shots from 3. Point being, they didn't need more post scoring, but I'm pretty sure that Jeff would have liked to have had more given the fact that his team was not hitting the outside shots.

(03-12-2021 12:56 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 12:43 PM)odu09 Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 12:21 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 11:50 AM)odu09 Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 11:35 AM)EverRespect Wrote:  No, we don't quite have the same problems as everyone else and we are not on equal footing. We are outliers. The travel isn't nearly as bad for most of the others. If we moved to the A10 and were still "middling" then there would be a stronger case that JJ is the main problem. I'm no fan fan of JJ, but I don't think replacing him is going to fix anything, unless we roll the dice and replace him with someone who cheats. We need out of this conference for a lot of reasons that have been discussed at length and even the admin and Baghdad Bob agree. This is just one of those reasons.

But why would the A10 be willing to take a middling team from a one-bid league? This is like a chicken and egg situation. I think we need to show possible future conference leadership our commitment to basketball excellence, and keeping JJ does not show that.

Why? Because our presence would reduce costs for most of the conference, create more demand for regional TV games, and significantly increase attendance at the conference tournament (the big money maker) most years. We offer the conference more than anyone else they could get even as a middling team.

1. Reduced travel costs is probably minimal when they are already regionalized.
2. How has our impact gone in terms of market presence? So far if you look at cusa media deals, we've made 0 impact to that.
3. Increased attendance at a tournament... a once a year event ticket sales? Huh.

Not to mention A10 would be losing shares of their basketball tournament payouts by adding another team. And it's not like we are a good investment in those terms... how many NCAA tournament credits have we earned in the lifetime of the program?

FWIW my dream is A10 bball and whatever happens to football happens (prefer FBS indy with scheduling alliance). But I don't think we are exactly a slam dunk add.

1. Reduced travel costs is probably minimal when they are already regionalized.

The A10 is not regionalized. And if it were to become regionalized by adding us, that would only work in our favor because the outlier schools would have less reason to object.

2. How has our impact gone in terms of market presence? So far if you look at cusa media deals, we've made 0 impact to that.

CUSA has 0 teams in the same region as us (Washington DC) so you are correct that there is no value as there is 0 chance that any game is going to go on regional TV (much less national) with only one team in the region, unless that team is Maryland or maybe Georgetown. The A10 has 4 teams in the region. Assuming we'd play each of those schools twice that is 8 potential additional regional TV games. Even if only 2 get picked up, that's significant value.

3. Increased attendance at a tournament... a once a year event ticket sales? Huh.

Yes, the tournament is THE money maker for mid major conferences.

Not to mention A10 would be losing shares of their basketball tournament payouts by adding another team. And it's not like we are a good investment in those terms... how many NCAA tournament credits have we earned in the lifetime of the program?

Would not be a significant impact. A10 credits are not distributed evenly like they are here and were in CUSA. The team that earned the credits receive the vast majority of the money (I believe it is 75%).

Fair enough. I'd love to be proven wrong and see the A10 take us as we are, I just don't see it happening for them if we aren't serious about our commitment to basketball. I think people tend to over value their own teams.

(03-12-2021 02:08 PM)odu09 Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 12:56 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 12:43 PM)odu09 Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 12:21 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 11:50 AM)odu09 Wrote:  But why would the A10 be willing to take a middling team from a one-bid league? This is like a chicken and egg situation. I think we need to show possible future conference leadership our commitment to basketball excellence, and keeping JJ does not show that.

Why? Because our presence would reduce costs for most of the conference, create more demand for regional TV games, and significantly increase attendance at the conference tournament (the big money maker) most years. We offer the conference more than anyone else they could get even as a middling team.

1. Reduced travel costs is probably minimal when they are already regionalized.
2. How has our impact gone in terms of market presence? So far if you look at cusa media deals, we've made 0 impact to that.
3. Increased attendance at a tournament... a once a year event ticket sales? Huh.

Not to mention A10 would be losing shares of their basketball tournament payouts by adding another team. And it's not like we are a good investment in those terms... how many NCAA tournament credits have we earned in the lifetime of the program?

FWIW my dream is A10 bball and whatever happens to football happens (prefer FBS indy with scheduling alliance). But I don't think we are exactly a slam dunk add.

1. Reduced travel costs is probably minimal when they are already regionalized.

The A10 is not regionalized. And if it were to become regionalized by adding us, that would only work in our favor because the outlier schools would have less reason to object.

2. How has our impact gone in terms of market presence? So far if you look at cusa media deals, we've made 0 impact to that.

CUSA has 0 teams in the same region as us (Washington DC) so you are correct that there is no value as there is 0 chance that any game is going to go on regional TV (much less national) with only one team in the region, unless that team is Maryland or maybe Georgetown. The A10 has 4 teams in the region. Assuming we'd play each of those schools twice that is 8 potential additional regional TV games. Even if only 2 get picked up, that's significant value.

3. Increased attendance at a tournament... a once a year event ticket sales? Huh.

Yes, the tournament is THE money maker for mid major conferences.

Not to mention A10 would be losing shares of their basketball tournament payouts by adding another team. And it's not like we are a good investment in those terms... how many NCAA tournament credits have we earned in the lifetime of the program?

Would not be a significant impact. A10 credits are not distributed evenly like they are here and were in CUSA. The team that earned the credits receive the vast majority of the money (I believe it is 75%).

Fair enough. I'd love to be proven wrong and see the A10 take us as we are, I just don't see it happening for them if we aren't serious about our commitment to basketball. I think people tend to over value their own teams.

I think the bigger concern is whether we can make independent football work more so than if the A10 will take us for other sports... at least that is what I infer from the (granted unsubstantiated) posts where I have tried to filter out I feel is more reliable based on the poster(s). I could be wrong. I used to have a credible source in the A10, but he moved onto other things about 5 or so years ago. He was 100% confident that not only the A10 wanted us, but we were invited for further discussion with VCU before George Mason and Butler even came in the mix and they pretty much got ghosted. That was a long time ago, however.

The A10 thing ain’t happening without them losing teams first. Until that happens, this discussion is pointless.

A lot of "Ifs" and variables.
First, the A10 is NOT going to expand beyond 14 teams.
Starting in 2018, there was a discussion that LaSalle might leave the A10 for various reasons.
In 2020 there were rumors that Fordham was weighing it's options.
IF, and it is a big if, either or both ever happens, then the A10 would still have to decide if it wanted to replace, or to remain at 13 or 12.
Right now it doesn't look like either program is leaving anytime soon. We'll see.

We had a similar discussion awhile back when there were rumors that Cincy and/or Houston were going to the BigXII. Some of you were sure it would happen, and that we would be the first to get the AAC call.

The reality is that cable TV is dying, and streaming is the wave of the future. Very soon the locale-exclusive rights monies dominating athletics will drop dramatically.
This means that large media markets, while still important, will not be the end-all they were just a few short years ago.

So, realistically, as with football and the AAC, we need to be ready for any and all advantageous eventualities which might present themselves, especially on short notice.
We have the market, which, although somewhat diminished in importance , will still be s factor, however, without quality(winning) programs, the likelyhood of us being considered by a destination that we want is very low. We need to do well in CUSA first.

VCU and GMU probably do not get the A10 call w/o the FF runs.

Agree. Take care of business on the field and business will take care of us.

Can't tell if some of you don't even want to be in the A10 or are pre-emptively trying to shield the admin of criticism for not getting it done by saying it can't happen. The A10 I don't believe is the problem. I believe they would go to 15 tomorrow if we could get the rest of our house in order. The problem/risk is independence. A scheduling alliance with UMASS, UCONN, Liberty, and Charlotte may not be enough. Even if we hold onto our ACC games and an FCS game, we still have half a schedule to fill every year. Need to figure something out because the current state of affairs is a gigantic loser. I know it, you know it, Baghdad Bob knows it, and Wood Selig knows it. And I can't think of any other was out of it other than independence or using Covid as an excuse to appeal to the NCAA to allow for a football only conference. And we have about 3-5 months left to milk the Covid excuse so if that's the plan we need to work it now. We'll be back to normal in the fall.

(03-12-2021 03:24 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  Can't tell if some of you don't even want to be in the A10 or are pre-emptively trying to shield the admin of criticism for not getting it done by saying it can't happen. The A10 I don't believe is the problem. I believe they would go to 15 tomorrow if we could get the rest of our house in order. The problem/risk is independence. A scheduling alliance with UMASS, UCONN, Liberty, and Charlotte may not be enough. Even if we hold onto our ACC games and an FCS game, we still have half a schedule to fill every year. Need to figure something out because the current state of affairs is a gigantic loser. I know it, you know it, Baghdad Bob knows it, and Wood Selig knows it. And I can't think of any other was out of it other than independence or using Covid as an excuse to appeal to the NCAA to allow for a football only conference. And we have about 3-5 months left to milk the Covid excuse so if that's the plan we need to work it now. We'll be back to normal in the fall.

The disconnect is the bolded statement, many of us including me disagree with this. I would be absolutely thrilled if it happened. I also agree with you that the administration is not going to sacrifice its football program for the basketball program, they showed their cards when they elected for CUSA in 2012.

(03-12-2021 03:24 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  Can't tell if some of you don't even want to be in the A10 or are pre-emptively trying to shield the admin of criticism for not getting it done by saying it can't happen. The A10 I don't believe is the problem. I believe they would go to 15 tomorrow if we could get the rest of our house in order. The problem/risk is independence. A scheduling alliance with UMASS, UCONN, Liberty, and Charlotte may not be enough. Even if we hold onto our ACC games and an FCS game, we still have half a schedule to fill every year. Need to figure something out because the current state of affairs is a gigantic loser. I know it, you know it, Baghdad Bob knows it, and Wood Selig knows it. And I can't think of any other was out of it other than independence or using Covid as an excuse to appeal to the NCAA to allow for a football only conference. And we have about 3-5 months left to milk the Covid excuse so if that's the plan we need to work it now. We'll be back to normal in the fall.

Aside from the likelyhood of the A10 EVER going to 15 being close to zero (they are far more likely to drop to 12), what constitutes getting our house in order?
It seems to me that is the definition of winning programs, which we must demonstrate BEFORE the fact.

Far from Covid, I submit that it is time to stop "milking" the CUSA (is the reason we suck) excuse and instead start making our own destiny.

(03-12-2021 04:07 PM)ODUalum78 Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 03:24 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  Can't tell if some of you don't even want to be in the A10 or are pre-emptively trying to shield the admin of criticism for not getting it done by saying it can't happen. The A10 I don't believe is the problem. I believe they would go to 15 tomorrow if we could get the rest of our house in order. The problem/risk is independence. A scheduling alliance with UMASS, UCONN, Liberty, and Charlotte may not be enough. Even if we hold onto our ACC games and an FCS game, we still have half a schedule to fill every year. Need to figure something out because the current state of affairs is a gigantic loser. I know it, you know it, Baghdad Bob knows it, and Wood Selig knows it. And I can't think of any other was out of it other than independence or using Covid as an excuse to appeal to the NCAA to allow for a football only conference. And we have about 3-5 months left to milk the Covid excuse so if that's the plan we need to work it now. We'll be back to normal in the fall.

Aside from the likelyhood of the A10 EVER going to 15 being close to zero (they are far more likely to drop to 12), what constitutes getting our house in order?
It seems to me that is the definition of winning programs, which we must demonstrate BEFORE the fact.

Far from Covid, I submit that it is time to stop "milking" the CUSA (is the reason we suck) excuse and instead start making our own destiny.

CUSA does not help at all, and it does put a ceiling on the level of success we can achieve in basketball. We also have not reached that ceiling, and need to.

(03-12-2021 04:07 PM)ODUalum78 Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 03:24 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  Can't tell if some of you don't even want to be in the A10 or are pre-emptively trying to shield the admin of criticism for not getting it done by saying it can't happen. The A10 I don't believe is the problem. I believe they would go to 15 tomorrow if we could get the rest of our house in order. The problem/risk is independence. A scheduling alliance with UMASS, UCONN, Liberty, and Charlotte may not be enough. Even if we hold onto our ACC games and an FCS game, we still have half a schedule to fill every year. Need to figure something out because the current state of affairs is a gigantic loser. I know it, you know it, Baghdad Bob knows it, and Wood Selig knows it. And I can't think of any other was out of it other than independence or using Covid as an excuse to appeal to the NCAA to allow for a football only conference. And we have about 3-5 months left to milk the Covid excuse so if that's the plan we need to work it now. We'll be back to normal in the fall.

Aside from the likelyhood of the A10 EVER going to 15 being close to zero (they are far more likely to drop to 12), what constitutes getting our house in order?
It seems to me that is the definition of winning programs, which we must demonstrate BEFORE the fact.

Far from Covid, I submit that it is time to stop "milking" the CUSA (is the reason we suck) excuse and instead start making our own destiny.

We used to have 2 winning programs before we went to CUSA so I disagree that hasn't been demonstrated. At some point you have to acknowledge mistakes were made and stop throwing good money after bad. We can't afford it and it will keep getting tighter. Programs will keep getting cut, coaches salaries will decline, OOC scheduling will keep deteriorating. The sunk cost fallacy can sink a bureaucracy as well as a business.

Its not just us that has trouble in CUSA. Id wager UAB, WKU, Marshall, Charlotte, So. Miss and La Tech would all be better too if we had a conference with rivals, a conference with actual marketing, a conference with a strong media presence, a conference with a deal that gave us money to compete, a conference that gave us a media deal to recruit behind... the seven of us (or add MTSU just for an even 8) would be better off going out on our own. The geography would still suck, and the disadvantages would still be there but at least we wouldnt have to go to Texas for games or the tournament, and we wouldnt have teams that don't care about basketball dragging down the RPI. Its really a shame the 8 of us aren't all within 5 or 6 hours of each other because we all have huge, proven, potential, but are a victims of circumstance in CUSA.

(03-12-2021 04:24 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 04:07 PM)ODUalum78 Wrote:  

(03-12-2021 03:24 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  Can't tell if some of you don't even want to be in the A10 or are pre-emptively trying to shield the admin of criticism for not getting it done by saying it can't happen. The A10 I don't believe is the problem. I believe they would go to 15 tomorrow if we could get the rest of our house in order. The problem/risk is independence. A scheduling alliance with UMASS, UCONN, Liberty, and Charlotte may not be enough. Even if we hold onto our ACC games and an FCS game, we still have half a schedule to fill every year. Need to figure something out because the current state of affairs is a gigantic loser. I know it, you know it, Baghdad Bob knows it, and Wood Selig knows it. And I can't think of any other was out of it other than independence or using Covid as an excuse to appeal to the NCAA to allow for a football only conference. And we have about 3-5 months left to milk the Covid excuse so if that's the plan we need to work it now. We'll be back to normal in the fall.

Aside from the likelyhood of the A10 EVER going to 15 being close to zero (they are far more likely to drop to 12), what constitutes getting our house in order?
It seems to me that is the definition of winning programs, which we must demonstrate BEFORE the fact.

Far from Covid, I submit that it is time to stop "milking" the CUSA (is the reason we suck) excuse and instead start making our own destiny.

We used to have 2 winning programs before we went to CUSA so I disagree that hasn't been demonstrated. At some point you have to acknowledge mistakes were made and stop throwing good money after bad. We can't afford it and it will keep getting tighter. Programs will keep getting cut, coaches salaries will decline, OOC scheduling will keep deteriorating. The sunk cost fallacy can sink a bureaucracy as well as a business.

The C-USA sucks including travel costs and having the basketball tourney in Texas ever year. I would not go back to the CAA, but at least we probably would go to the NCAA tourney each year. $$$$$$ We need to find a league where we would at least go past the fourth round or quarterfinals each year, in this crappy C-USA basketball league. one championship in 8 years, that gets my heart pumping. Need a recruiter who can turn ODU into the fast lane. If he is good and recruits excellent and leaves we will have foundation and get another top recruiter to continue the climb.

(03-12-2021 02:49 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  The A10 thing ain’t happening without them losing teams first. Until that happens, this discussion is pointless.

Bump