(02-11-2021 09:08 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  NW Indiana isn't the epitome of charm, but Valpo is a nice little college in a cute enough small town. Unfortunately SJW nonsense has no limits however, complete idiocy across almost all modern universities.

SJWs create idiotic names like Cardinal (the color) and RedHawks.

(02-12-2021 11:21 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  As a fan/alumnus that changed its school athletic nickname to be more inclusive and not politically incorrect, I can say the most amusing aspect to whomever is offended by said name that pursues a school to change is that it does not change the association nor does it change the nickname's usage. Even today, more than 20 years later, sportscasters and announcers still refer to Marquette University as the "Warriors". It happens regularly and routinely. I also know that is happens with many other schools and teams across the country. Changing a nickname does not change the history and/or the association. Students and fans still purchase and create unaffiliated shirts and merchandise with the former name. Thus, the "official" connection might be removed, but it does not remove a fan base's usage or memory from it. Changing a nickname doesn’t change behaviors, such as using a nickname as part of vernacular, which is the goal and pursuit of all name changes. If anything, it only strengthens and affirms it, in a weird way.

We are approaching a very slippery slope in regards to mascots and nicknames. I'm genuinely surprised that PETA has not become more vocal and involved in teams that are named after animals, or have real-life animals as mascots. If you collect a group of 100 people, you will undoubtedly find 100 different sources that cause offence. And if we cancel out everything that is deemed offensive, what will we have left? Food for thought, I guess.

Marquette was one of the dumbest name changes of ALL times. Warriors has broad meanings and connotations, not just American Indian Warriors.

(02-12-2021 10:04 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-11-2021 06:05 PM)Arch Stanton Wrote:  

(02-11-2021 04:24 PM)ODUODUODU Wrote:  So who is offended or a victim by the use of the Crusaders name? Trying to educate my self here...

There were instances when the Crusaders slaughtered innocent people. If I recall the 1st or 2nd time they took Jerusalem the Crusaders slaughtered all the inhabitants of Jurusalem including noncombatants of Muslim and jewish faith. It was war fueled by the capture of the Holy Land from Muslim rule.

And the Muslims slaughtered those in Crusader cities as well. Wars were fought differently then.

Yes of course if you look at history no society with power did not commit some horrid act(s).

Another horrible name change was St. Johns changing from Redmen to Red Storm. The Redmen name originally came from the color of the uniforms not the color of the Native Americans skin. They did have a Native American mascot in the 70s 80s but that wasn't why they were named the Redmen. After the Native American mascot they had a guy in a red suit as the mascot. The Red Storm is a horrible name.

(02-12-2021 09:36 PM)Arch Stanton Wrote:  

(02-12-2021 11:21 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  As a fan/alumnus that changed its school athletic nickname to be more inclusive and not politically incorrect, I can say the most amusing aspect to whomever is offended by said name that pursues a school to change is that it does not change the association nor does it change the nickname's usage. Even today, more than 20 years later, sportscasters and announcers still refer to Marquette University as the "Warriors". It happens regularly and routinely. I also know that is happens with many other schools and teams across the country. Changing a nickname does not change the history and/or the association. Students and fans still purchase and create unaffiliated shirts and merchandise with the former name. Thus, the "official" connection might be removed, but it does not remove a fan base's usage or memory from it. Changing a nickname doesn’t change behaviors, such as using a nickname as part of vernacular, which is the goal and pursuit of all name changes. If anything, it only strengthens and affirms it, in a weird way.

We are approaching a very slippery slope in regards to mascots and nicknames. I'm genuinely surprised that PETA has not become more vocal and involved in teams that are named after animals, or have real-life animals as mascots. If you collect a group of 100 people, you will undoubtedly find 100 different sources that cause offence. And if we cancel out everything that is deemed offensive, what will we have left? Food for thought, I guess.

As a lurker for some time your posts are always a great read and I usually agree with you. With this post I think you are spot on again.

The Vikings raped and pillaged should we change the Minnesota Vikings name? As you said were does it end?

As Dazzle (another great poster) posts below I also thought the Redskins name was derogatory and had native Americans had any financial clout the name would have been changed years ago so I agree with the cancelation of their name but really disagree with the whole cancel culture our country is in.

Are the Ole Miss Rebels safe? No more col Reb but the name rebels and colors of the Virginia BattleFlag?

Thanks for the props, AStanton.

I'm left leaning but I don't understand of the "cancel culture" approach of the left. And I'm "leftist" (with some "rightist" thoughts) overall.

Keep posting. I appreciate the contributions of open-minded posters.

(02-12-2021 10:08 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-12-2021 11:21 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  As a fan/alumnus that changed its school athletic nickname to be more inclusive and not politically incorrect, I can say the most amusing aspect to whomever is offended by said name that pursues a school to change is that it does not change the association nor does it change the nickname's usage. Even today, more than 20 years later, sportscasters and announcers still refer to Marquette University as the "Warriors". It happens regularly and routinely. I also know that is happens with many other schools and teams across the country. Changing a nickname does not change the history and/or the association. Students and fans still purchase and create unaffiliated shirts and merchandise with the former name. Thus, the "official" connection might be removed, but it does not remove a fan base's usage or memory from it. Changing a nickname doesn’t change behaviors, such as using a nickname as part of vernacular, which is the goal and pursuit of all name changes. If anything, it only strengthens and affirms it, in a weird way.

We are approaching a very slippery slope in regards to mascots and nicknames. I'm genuinely surprised that PETA has not become more vocal and involved in teams that are named after animals, or have real-life animals as mascots. If you collect a group of 100 people, you will undoubtedly find 100 different sources that cause offence. And if we cancel out everything that is deemed offensive, what will we have left? Food for thought, I guess.

Marquette was one of the dumbest name changes of ALL times. Warriors has broad meanings and connotations, not just American Indian Warriors.

Agree fully, Bullet. I loved the old-school Marquette Warriors with Al Maguire. We should all be hugely respectful of our Native American brothers and sisters (my late grandmother, and I recall her well) was the child of a Native American mother. There are some elements of the American Indian college sports mascot culture that make me cringe. But I will strive to be open minded. MU, I wish, should have kept the Warriors moniker.

(02-12-2021 10:06 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-11-2021 09:08 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  NW Indiana isn't the epitome of charm, but Valpo is a nice little college in a cute enough small town. Unfortunately SJW nonsense has no limits however, complete idiocy across almost all modern universities.

SJWs create idiotic names like Cardinal (the color) and RedHawks.

Like I said... The Valpo "Beige."

Completely non-offensive and non-threatening. And works with their color scheme.

Anybody else see the irony of going on a crusade to have the “Crusaders” changed?

Thinking it's time to just do away with nicknames and carry on. A lot of teams on a global scale don't have a nickname. The name changes almost always becomes something laughable. Just not a controversy worth having. You can always sell Pitt, Bama, Pittsburgh Football Team, or Bronx Baseball Team t-shirts with or without a nickname. Some turd is going to find something offensive regardless of how safe we think a nickname is. An environmentalist can find the Steelers or Timbers offensive. Short people can find the Giants offensive. It's all dumb to me.

(02-13-2021 01:29 AM)esayem Wrote:  Anybody else see the irony of going on a crusade to have the “Crusaders” changed?

So you're saying we should cancel the canceling of deemed offensive nicknames. Where do I sign (or, more effectively, what's our hashtag)?

(02-12-2021 11:47 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(02-12-2021 10:08 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-12-2021 11:21 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  As a fan/alumnus that changed its school athletic nickname to be more inclusive and not politically incorrect, I can say the most amusing aspect to whomever is offended by said name that pursues a school to change is that it does not change the association nor does it change the nickname's usage. Even today, more than 20 years later, sportscasters and announcers still refer to Marquette University as the "Warriors". It happens regularly and routinely. I also know that is happens with many other schools and teams across the country. Changing a nickname does not change the history and/or the association. Students and fans still purchase and create unaffiliated shirts and merchandise with the former name. Thus, the "official" connection might be removed, but it does not remove a fan base's usage or memory from it. Changing a nickname doesn’t change behaviors, such as using a nickname as part of vernacular, which is the goal and pursuit of all name changes. If anything, it only strengthens and affirms it, in a weird way.

We are approaching a very slippery slope in regards to mascots and nicknames. I'm genuinely surprised that PETA has not become more vocal and involved in teams that are named after animals, or have real-life animals as mascots. If you collect a group of 100 people, you will undoubtedly find 100 different sources that cause offence. And if we cancel out everything that is deemed offensive, what will we have left? Food for thought, I guess.

Marquette was one of the dumbest name changes of ALL times. Warriors has broad meanings and connotations, not just American Indian Warriors.

Agree fully, Bullet. I loved the old-school Marquette Warriors with Al Maguire. We should all be hugely respectful of our Native American brothers and sisters (my late grandmother, and I recall her well) was the child of a Native American mother. There are some elements of the American Indian college sports mascot culture that make me cringe. But I will strive to be open minded. MU, I wish, should have kept the Warriors moniker.

There's also a back story to this.

For those that have been to Milwaukee, the Potawatomi Casino is just south of MU's campus. The Potawatomi have a large following in Wisconsin. The casino opened in 1991 and is owned by the Forest County Potawatomi Community. The school changed the name in 1994. Warriors became the school nickname in 1954 on the recommendation of students who felt the name reflected American Indians' close relationship with the Jesuits in settlement days.

From my understanding, the Forest County Potawatomi Community gave the land that became Valley Fields, where our soccer and lacrosse teams play, to MU in return for MU eliminating the Warriors name. In essence, there was a trade of sorts, but the (then) administration was very apprehensive and concerned about the connection to a Native American mascot.

The handling and organization of our name change was poor and disorganized. There was a "community vote" to choose a new name that only had Lightning and Golden Eagles as options. Other names, like Golden Avalanche and Hilltoppers, had more historical connections and associations.

Going back to my original point, in 2005, MU conducted a poll in which 92 percent of alumni respondents said they identified with the name “Warriors.” In the same poll, 62 percent of students also identified with “Warriors". So much for eliminating the connection and association.

This account doesn't even go into the story in 2005 when Marquette briefly changed its name to the Gold. That was so quickly and universally panned by students, alumni and fans alike (D. Wade was interviewed live on ESPN and said he would get that changed) that it was laughably awful.

Bottom line, if you're going to change your name, have a plan/rebrand in place. Don't immediately cater to the so-called mob; wait a year, conduct studies and groups, and create a new identity that people can get behind as rash and quick decisions with these things almost always fail.

(02-13-2021 08:12 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(02-13-2021 01:29 AM)esayem Wrote:  Anybody else see the irony of going on a crusade to have the “Crusaders” changed?

So you're saying we should cancel the canceling of deemed offensive nicknames. Where do I sign (or, more effectively, what's our hashtag)?

Well that would be another crusade in itself.

People are allowing words to be hijacked instead of standing behind their definitions. I was pleasantly surprised UNLV chose to stick with Rebels. The frontiersman is gone though.

Dixie State is changing their school name and SJSU dropped their hand-signal, which was essentially the okay sign.

UNLV’s Rebel was supposed to be a James Dean type guy from the 1950s (Rebel Without a Cause). However somewhere along the way the botched it by wanting to identify as the school in southern Nevada as opposed to University of Nevada being in the North.

(02-12-2021 11:48 PM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  

(02-12-2021 10:06 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-11-2021 09:08 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  NW Indiana isn't the epitome of charm, but Valpo is a nice little college in a cute enough small town. Unfortunately SJW nonsense has no limits however, complete idiocy across almost all modern universities.

SJWs create idiotic names like Cardinal (the color) and RedHawks.

Like I said... The Valpo "Beige."

Completely non-offensive and non-threatening. And works with their color scheme.

What about the Greendale Human Beings?



As the fan of a Miami program that changed from Redskins who's also legitimately 1/8 Potawatomie, I get why some team names should probably be changed. I don't give a crap about it (see my sig) and distant relatives much closer to the tribe generally don't either, though overt stereotyping (like the old school MLB Braves mascot) or very broad naming (like Redskins) serves little purpose. Big difference between that and something like Crusaders though.

The thing that really annoys me is how generic most of the new names are. Miami changed to Redhawks earlier than a lot of programs so we have a bit of an excuse, but recent updates like the North Dakota Fighting Hawks are painfully boring. Go way out there with something locally inspired (the Freeport Pretzels, a high school in Northern Illinois), relating to your institution (Purdue Boilermakers), or really random (UC-Santa Clara Banana Slugs). Growing up playing Madden or NCAA Football I'd always create teams called something silly like the Pandas or Chocolatiers.

(02-13-2021 08:35 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(02-12-2021 11:47 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  

(02-12-2021 10:08 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-12-2021 11:21 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  As a fan/alumnus that changed its school athletic nickname to be more inclusive and not politically incorrect, I can say the most amusing aspect to whomever is offended by said name that pursues a school to change is that it does not change the association nor does it change the nickname's usage. Even today, more than 20 years later, sportscasters and announcers still refer to Marquette University as the "Warriors". It happens regularly and routinely. I also know that is happens with many other schools and teams across the country. Changing a nickname does not change the history and/or the association. Students and fans still purchase and create unaffiliated shirts and merchandise with the former name. Thus, the "official" connection might be removed, but it does not remove a fan base's usage or memory from it. Changing a nickname doesn’t change behaviors, such as using a nickname as part of vernacular, which is the goal and pursuit of all name changes. If anything, it only strengthens and affirms it, in a weird way.

We are approaching a very slippery slope in regards to mascots and nicknames. I'm genuinely surprised that PETA has not become more vocal and involved in teams that are named after animals, or have real-life animals as mascots. If you collect a group of 100 people, you will undoubtedly find 100 different sources that cause offence. And if we cancel out everything that is deemed offensive, what will we have left? Food for thought, I guess.

Marquette was one of the dumbest name changes of ALL times. Warriors has broad meanings and connotations, not just American Indian Warriors.

Agree fully, Bullet. I loved the old-school Marquette Warriors with Al Maguire. We should all be hugely respectful of our Native American brothers and sisters (my late grandmother, and I recall her well) was the child of a Native American mother. There are some elements of the American Indian college sports mascot culture that make me cringe. But I will strive to be open minded. MU, I wish, should have kept the Warriors moniker.

There's also a back story to this.

For those that have been to Milwaukee, the Potawatomi Casino is just south of MU's campus. The Potawatomi have a large following in Wisconsin. The casino opened in 1991 and is owned by the Forest County Potawatomi Community. The school changed the name in 1994. Warriors became the school nickname in 1954 on the recommendation of students who felt the name reflected American Indians' close relationship with the Jesuits in settlement days.

From my understanding, the Forest County Potawatomi Community gave the land that became Valley Fields, where our soccer and lacrosse teams play, to MU in return for MU eliminating the Warriors name. In essence, there was a trade of sorts, but the (then) administration was very apprehensive and concerned about the connection to a Native American mascot.

The handling and organization of our name change was poor and disorganized. There was a "community vote" to choose a new name that only had Lightning and Golden Eagles as options. Other names, like Golden Avalanche and Hilltoppers, had more historical connections and associations.

Going back to my original point, in 2005, MU conducted a poll in which 92 percent of alumni respondents said they identified with the name “Warriors.” In the same poll, 62 percent of students also identified with “Warriors". So much for eliminating the connection and association.

This account doesn't even go into the story in 2005 when Marquette briefly changed its name to the Gold. That was so quickly and universally panned by students, alumni and fans alike (D. Wade was interviewed live on ESPN and said he would get that changed) that it was laughably awful.

Bottom line, if you're going to change your name, have a plan/rebrand in place. Don't immediately cater to the so-called mob; wait a year, conduct studies and groups, and create a new identity that people can get behind as rash and quick decisions with these things almost always fail.

Lots of interesting info here, GW11, that I did not know. Thanks for posting. I come to this board looking for such material. When I find it, I'm pleased. Fully agree about the approach to a nickname change.

I recall the days of Bo Ellis, Jerome Whitehead and Butch Lee. Marquette will always be the Warriors to me.

(02-13-2021 01:14 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  

(02-12-2021 11:48 PM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  

(02-12-2021 10:06 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-11-2021 09:08 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  NW Indiana isn't the epitome of charm, but Valpo is a nice little college in a cute enough small town. Unfortunately SJW nonsense has no limits however, complete idiocy across almost all modern universities.

SJWs create idiotic names like Cardinal (the color) and RedHawks.

Like I said... The Valpo "Beige."

Completely non-offensive and non-threatening. And works with their color scheme.

What about the Greendale Human Beings?



As the fan of a Miami program that changed from Redskins who's also legitimately 1/8 Potawatomie, I get why some team names should probably be changed. I don't give a crap about it (see my sig) and distant relatives much closer to the tribe generally don't either, though overt stereotyping (like the old school MLB Braves mascot) or very broad naming (like Redskins) serves little purpose. Big difference between that and something like Crusaders though.

The thing that really annoys me is how generic most of the new names are. Miami changed to Redhawks earlier than a lot of programs so we have a bit of an excuse, but recent updates like the North Dakota Fighting Hawks are painfully boring. Go way out there with something locally inspired (the Freeport Pretzels, a high school in Northern Illinois), relating to your institution (Purdue Boilermakers), or really random (UC-Santa Clara Banana Slugs). Growing up playing Madden or NCAA Football I'd always create teams called something silly like the Pandas or Chocolatiers.

Agree fully on the "generic" approach when universities change nicknames. When Belmont opted for "Bruins" to replace "Rebels," I simply shook my head. With the music theme of the university and Nashville, BU would have been better off going with the Belmont Highland Warpipers, as that would have been distinctive and musical. Have Scottish bagpipe music thundering as the team takes the floor to warm up. A nice way to unnerve the opponents.

Bemont Bruins ... ????? Sad, and I'm a big Belmont fan. I dislike that moniker.

(02-13-2021 01:14 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  

(02-12-2021 11:48 PM)BearcatJerry Wrote:  

(02-12-2021 10:06 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(02-11-2021 09:08 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  NW Indiana isn't the epitome of charm, but Valpo is a nice little college in a cute enough small town. Unfortunately SJW nonsense has no limits however, complete idiocy across almost all modern universities.

SJWs create idiotic names like Cardinal (the color) and RedHawks.

Like I said... The Valpo "Beige."

Completely non-offensive and non-threatening. And works with their color scheme.

What about the Greendale Human Beings?



As the fan of a Miami program that changed from Redskins who's also legitimately 1/8 Potawatomie, I get why some team names should probably be changed. I don't give a crap about it (see my sig) and distant relatives much closer to the tribe generally don't either, though overt stereotyping (like the old school MLB Braves mascot) or very broad naming (like Redskins) serves little purpose. Big difference between that and something like Crusaders though.

The thing that really annoys me is how generic most of the new names are. Miami changed to Redhawks earlier than a lot of programs so we have a bit of an excuse, but recent updates like the North Dakota Fighting Hawks are painfully boring. Go way out there with something locally inspired (the Freeport Pretzels, a high school in Northern Illinois), relating to your institution (Purdue Boilermakers), or really random (UC-Santa Clara Banana Slugs). Growing up playing Madden or NCAA Football I'd always create teams called something silly like the Pandas or Chocolatiers.

I think Redskins needed to go, but Redhawks is just a really awful replacement.

What skin is it off your backs to not offend people?!

(02-12-2021 12:15 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I'm likely one of the more socio-politically progressive posters on this board. But I must admit: Most of these name changes border on absurd.

I recall when Belmont changed its nickname to Bruins from Rebels. The latter offered (university officials contended) an Old South/Confederacy vibe. I get it. But not all "rebels" are Confederates. Belmont could have kept the Rebel nickname and created a new mascot and theme. Could have made it playful. Too late now.

Don't run away from your history (but don't embrace the ugly elements either). There is a compromise to be found. Sadly, many universities are failing to see that.

What "compromise" do you propose?

(02-13-2021 08:12 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  

(02-13-2021 01:29 AM)esayem Wrote:  Anybody else see the irony of going on a crusade to have the “Crusaders” changed?

So you're saying we should cancel the canceling of deemed offensive nicknames. Where do I sign (or, more effectively, what's our hashtag)?

They could have kept the nickname Crusaders and just made the mascot a student holding a petition.