SC (ND)
UCLA
AZ
ASU
Tech
UT (ou)
TCU
CU (NU)


ND (SC)
WV
NU (CU)
ISU
KU
KSU
ou (UT)
OSU

I can only envision this working with a minimum of 16 schools. I put in parenthesis the permanent cross over games. This set up will suck with cross over games since (UT,NU,CO,ou,ND and SC) will have one permanent cross over game, 7 div games and 1 cross over game. Unless they actually agree with a pod system.

SC, UCLA, AZ, ASU
TT, UT, TCU, CO
ND, WV,ISU, NU
ou, OSU,KU, KSU

maybe switch one of KU or KSU with NU to ensure the ou/nu game takes place and NU can have it's permanent game vs CU?

It’s an interesting OP with a lot of intriguing thoughts but I can’t say that I agree 100% with the conclusion.

For the Irish there are really only 2 options for full conference membership: ACC or Big 10

The Irish like associations with 3 types of schools: urban (with large Catholic populations), private, and academically elite. If you’re 2 or more of those things even better.

The Big 12 and SEC are both lacking in these areas. Both leagues have a lot of small college towns and these simply not a lot of schools in those leagues that can check off multiple criteria for ND.

I’m going to rule the PAC 12 out purely due to geography. Maybe if they had some wild pod system where ND, Cuse, Pitt, and BC were in the PAC 16 but the logistics of being on 2 coasts just isn’t feasible.

This leaves just the Big Ten and ACC.

The Big Ten definitely would be a financial boon. It’s a valuable conference and the Irish would make them even richer. A lot of the members register 2 of 3 of ND’s checks—13 of 14 are AAU (academic elite); Maryland, Rutgers, Ohio St, NW, and Minn are all urban.

Fitting into the power structure is where ND would have to figure out where they stand with traditional power brokers Michigan, Ohio St, Penn St, and Wisconsin. ND would have to make compromises and work with the other dominant teams. They won’t always get their way.

The Big Ten would lock them into the Midwest and Northeast though. They could keep the USC rivalry but that would be about it. I don’t buy the argument that Big Ten membership would hurt ND’s recruiting because Ohio St, Michigan, and Penn St all have no problem bringing in kids from the south and west coast.

The ACC presents some of its own perks and drawbacks. They certainly wouldn’t be as lucrative as the Big Ten but I think their is an easier path to the playoff.

The ACC would give them road games and exposure all up and down the East coast. There’s also lot of schools that hit on the Urban/Elite/Private qualifications.

I disagree with the idea that the power structure would be untenable and that the Tobacco Road contingent would want to bar ND. They’ve already let ND into the henhouse so to speak. The only difference is that ND would be weighing in on football decisions. Tobacco Road is cognizant that they need to be financially competitive to maintain cohesion and ND brings that fiscal stability.

While I want ND in the Big Ten, I think the ACC is the choice that they make.

How about this for a new conference?

Notre Dame
Southern Cal
Stanford
Texas
Texas Tech
Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
Colorado

With only 7 conference games, the most valuable brands get 5 OOC games to sell. And they all have every little brother they would want to bring along and pretty much all their rivalry games are now in conference.

If the XII remnants could get Louisville and Pitt from the ACC and Cincy from the AAC, they would still have a viable 9 team conference of their own. At the end of the day, there would be six AQ conferences.

(02-12-2021 08:21 PM)ken d Wrote:  How about this for a new conference?

Notre Dame
Southern Cal
Stanford
Texas
Texas Tech
Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
Colorado

With only 7 conference games, the most valuable brands get 5 OOC games to sell. And they all have every little brother they would want to bring along and pretty much all their rivalry games are now in conference.

If the XII remnants could get Louisville and Pitt from the ACC and Cincy from the AAC, they would still have a viable 9 team conference of their own. At the end of the day, there would be six AQ conferences.

I’d swap Colorado out and Oregon and Washington in but I think it’s an interesting concept.

(02-12-2021 10:24 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(02-12-2021 08:21 PM)ken d Wrote:  How about this for a new conference?

Notre Dame
Southern Cal
Stanford
Texas
Texas Tech
Oklahoma
Oklahoma State
Colorado

With only 7 conference games, the most valuable brands get 5 OOC games to sell. And they all have every little brother they would want to bring along and pretty much all their rivalry games are now in conference.

If the XII remnants could get Louisville and Pitt from the ACC and Cincy from the AAC, they would still have a viable 9 team conference of their own. At the end of the day, there would be six AQ conferences.

I’d swap Colorado out and Oregon and Washington in but I think it’s an interesting concept.

My intent here was at least twofold. First, to create a third conference that can match the wealth of the SEC and B1G. Second, to result in six viable AQ conferences to feed an eight team playoff model.

My choice of Colorado also had two purposes: to leave the PAC 9 with legitimate national contenders, and to serve as a bridge between the Texahoma schools and the west coast schools.

My 8 team playoff model includes the six AQ champions, any school outside the AQ conferences ranked in the Top 12 by a composite ranking of at least four rating services, and the highest ranked team(s) at large by that same group. I would include the AP Poll, Coaches Poll, Massey Composite and Sagarin and am open to others not associated with ESPN in any way.

I would have the four highest ranked playoff teams host the first round games on their home field the week after CCG week. I would rotate the semis and final among the Peach, Cotton and Fiesta Bowls. First round losers would be automatically assigned to either whichever of these three is hosting the CFP Final or to the Capital One Bowl which is added to the New Years roster.

The Rose, Sugar and Orange go to the #2 team from the six AQ conferences. Most likely that would mean the PAC 9 vs the B1G in the Rose, the SEC vs the Great Eight (GR8) in the Sugar, and the ACC vs the Big Nine in the Orange Bowl.

(02-10-2021 02:13 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  It’s an interesting OP with a lot of intriguing thoughts but I can’t say that I agree 100% with the conclusion.

For the Irish there are really only 2 options for full conference membership: ACC or Big 10

The Irish like associations with 3 types of schools: urban (with large Catholic populations), private, and academically elite. If you’re 2 or more of those things even better.

The Big 12 and SEC are both lacking in these areas. Both leagues have a lot of small college towns and these simply not a lot of schools in those leagues that can check off multiple criteria for ND.

I’m going to rule the PAC 12 out purely due to geography. Maybe if they had some wild pod system where ND, Cuse, Pitt, and BC were in the PAC 16 but the logistics of being on 2 coasts just isn’t feasible.

This leaves just the Big Ten and ACC.

The Big Ten definitely would be a financial boon. It’s a valuable conference and the Irish would make them even richer. A lot of the members register 2 of 3 of ND’s checks—13 of 14 are AAU (academic elite); Maryland, Rutgers, Ohio St, NW, and Minn are all urban.

Fitting into the power structure is where ND would have to figure out where they stand with traditional power brokers Michigan, Ohio St, Penn St, and Wisconsin. ND would have to make compromises and work with the other dominant teams. They won’t always get their way.

The Big Ten would lock them into the Midwest and Northeast though. They could keep the USC rivalry but that would be about it. I don’t buy the argument that Big Ten membership would hurt ND’s recruiting because Ohio St, Michigan, and Penn St all have no problem bringing in kids from the south and west coast.

The ACC presents some of its own perks and drawbacks. They certainly wouldn’t be as lucrative as the Big Ten but I think their is an easier path to the playoff.

The ACC would give them road games and exposure all up and down the East coast. There’s also lot of schools that hit on the Urban/Elite/Private qualifications.

I disagree with the idea that the power structure would be untenable and that the Tobacco Road contingent would want to bar ND. They’ve already let ND into the henhouse so to speak. The only difference is that ND would be weighing in on football decisions. Tobacco Road is cognizant that they need to be financially competitive to maintain cohesion and ND brings that fiscal stability.

While I want ND in the Big Ten, I think the ACC is the choice that they make.

ND is a voting member of the ACC - why do people keep forgeting that?

(02-17-2021 05:50 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(02-10-2021 02:13 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  It’s an interesting OP with a lot of intriguing thoughts but I can’t say that I agree 100% with the conclusion.

For the Irish there are really only 2 options for full conference membership: ACC or Big 10

The Irish like associations with 3 types of schools: urban (with large Catholic populations), private, and academically elite. If you’re 2 or more of those things even better.

The Big 12 and SEC are both lacking in these areas. Both leagues have a lot of small college towns and these simply not a lot of schools in those leagues that can check off multiple criteria for ND.

I’m going to rule the PAC 12 out purely due to geography. Maybe if they had some wild pod system where ND, Cuse, Pitt, and BC were in the PAC 16 but the logistics of being on 2 coasts just isn’t feasible.

This leaves just the Big Ten and ACC.

The Big Ten definitely would be a financial boon. It’s a valuable conference and the Irish would make them even richer. A lot of the members register 2 of 3 of ND’s checks—13 of 14 are AAU (academic elite); Maryland, Rutgers, Ohio St, NW, and Minn are all urban.

Fitting into the power structure is where ND would have to figure out where they stand with traditional power brokers Michigan, Ohio St, Penn St, and Wisconsin. ND would have to make compromises and work with the other dominant teams. They won’t always get their way.

The Big Ten would lock them into the Midwest and Northeast though. They could keep the USC rivalry but that would be about it. I don’t buy the argument that Big Ten membership would hurt ND’s recruiting because Ohio St, Michigan, and Penn St all have no problem bringing in kids from the south and west coast.

The ACC presents some of its own perks and drawbacks. They certainly wouldn’t be as lucrative as the Big Ten but I think their is an easier path to the playoff.

The ACC would give them road games and exposure all up and down the East coast. There’s also lot of schools that hit on the Urban/Elite/Private qualifications.

I disagree with the idea that the power structure would be untenable and that the Tobacco Road contingent would want to bar ND. They’ve already let ND into the henhouse so to speak. The only difference is that ND would be weighing in on football decisions. Tobacco Road is cognizant that they need to be financially competitive to maintain cohesion and ND brings that fiscal stability.

While I want ND in the Big Ten, I think the ACC is the choice that they make.

ND is a voting member of the ACC - why do people keep forgeting that?

Because it does not fit into the narrative that some SEC/B1G posters want to project.
You have heard it before, the SEC/B1G make more money and (insert school name here) will leave the ACC to make more money, or so they don't have to be under the influence of Tobacco Road any longer.

(02-22-2021 05:24 AM)XLance Wrote:  

(02-17-2021 05:50 PM)Statefan Wrote:  

(02-10-2021 02:13 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  It’s an interesting OP with a lot of intriguing thoughts but I can’t say that I agree 100% with the conclusion.

For the Irish there are really only 2 options for full conference membership: ACC or Big 10

The Irish like associations with 3 types of schools: urban (with large Catholic populations), private, and academically elite. If you’re 2 or more of those things even better.

The Big 12 and SEC are both lacking in these areas. Both leagues have a lot of small college towns and these simply not a lot of schools in those leagues that can check off multiple criteria for ND.

I’m going to rule the PAC 12 out purely due to geography. Maybe if they had some wild pod system where ND, Cuse, Pitt, and BC were in the PAC 16 but the logistics of being on 2 coasts just isn’t feasible.

This leaves just the Big Ten and ACC.

The Big Ten definitely would be a financial boon. It’s a valuable conference and the Irish would make them even richer. A lot of the members register 2 of 3 of ND’s checks—13 of 14 are AAU (academic elite); Maryland, Rutgers, Ohio St, NW, and Minn are all urban.

Fitting into the power structure is where ND would have to figure out where they stand with traditional power brokers Michigan, Ohio St, Penn St, and Wisconsin. ND would have to make compromises and work with the other dominant teams. They won’t always get their way.

The Big Ten would lock them into the Midwest and Northeast though. They could keep the USC rivalry but that would be about it. I don’t buy the argument that Big Ten membership would hurt ND’s recruiting because Ohio St, Michigan, and Penn St all have no problem bringing in kids from the south and west coast.

The ACC presents some of its own perks and drawbacks. They certainly wouldn’t be as lucrative as the Big Ten but I think their is an easier path to the playoff.

The ACC would give them road games and exposure all up and down the East coast. There’s also lot of schools that hit on the Urban/Elite/Private qualifications.

I disagree with the idea that the power structure would be untenable and that the Tobacco Road contingent would want to bar ND. They’ve already let ND into the henhouse so to speak. The only difference is that ND would be weighing in on football decisions. Tobacco Road is cognizant that they need to be financially competitive to maintain cohesion and ND brings that fiscal stability.

While I want ND in the Big Ten, I think the ACC is the choice that they make.

ND is a voting member of the ACC - why do people keep forgeting that?

Because it does not fit into the narrative that some SEC/B1G posters want to project.
You have heard it before, the SEC/B1G make more money and (insert school name here) will leave the ACC to make more money, or so they don't have to be under the influence of Tobacco Road any longer.

Nobody forgets that they are voting members. It's just not relevant. And it sure wouldn't be relevant to Notre Dame should they decide to leave.

(02-10-2021 01:19 AM)JRsec Wrote:  Lot's of people speculate about Notre Dame joining the ACC in full. Some speculate about Notre Dame in the Big 10. But where would the Irish actually best fit?

Let's divorce ourselves from the he said / she said, fan, and message board assertions and just look at the data. Emotions cloud the mind. Data frequently explains the emotions even better than people. It might even explain in a new way why independence is so important to them.

Did you know that based on the WSJ valuations that if Notre Dame joined the ACC in full they would be worth 27.7% of the total value of an ACC with them in it? The next closest team would be Clemson and they would be worth maybe 9 or 10% of the total value of an ACC with Notre Dame in it.

This raises some serious questions as to how much the powers that be in the ACC would welcome them in full? Would North Carolina and Virginia and Duke which together in an ACC with Notre Dame in it would be worth maybe 17 or 18% of the total value really like losing their lead roles? Technically, if not for historical positions of power, they would long ago have lost that power to Clemson and Florida State. I can't see Tobacco Road willingly giving up that kind of power. Let the Irish cultivate alliances with Clemson, FSU, Virginia Tech, Miami, and Louisville and you would have an alliance worth a little over half of the total valuation. It would be a starkly different decision making process moving forward.

So even though the Irish want to hold onto Independence for monetary reasons, as the ACC is not nearly their best financial option, as long as they have independence they will keep the arrangement, with a group that doesn't really want them as full members for the aforementioned reasons.

In the Big 10 they would have plenty of money, but they would be always behind the leadership of Ohio State and Michigan who have more combined strength than 2/3rds of their conference. Notre Dame adds to their coffers, but doesn't have the say they want, is forced into a less national schedule, and suffers a bit of a national identity loss as they become 1 of 3 Indiana schools. So I get the Irish reticence to join the Big 10.

In the SEC they would be neck and neck with Alabama, but the SEC is the broadest at the top in valuations and in the SEC the Irish's total value would be around 13% of the total even though they would be 1st or 2nd just barely in valuation. Not much power, a lot of hard physical games, and again not much national exposure in scheduling, but great access to recruits and the best payday they could hope to find. But outside of Kentucky, Tennessee, and maybe Missouri not really close to anyone and minor sports again would suffer lots of travel overhead.

They would be worth almost 25% of the total PAC valuation, and would be numero uno out West. Travel for minor sports would kill them and they would come out much better financially doing what they do already and that's play 1 or 2 West coast schools on their terms.

The most fascinating option for Notre Dame would be the Big 12. They would be just behind Texas and just ahead of Oklahoma in value. They wouldn't have a grueling slug fest like in the SEC and they would be in contention for a playoff spot often enough. The money would be better than in the ACC, and Texas is a recruiting hotbed and with 4 Texas schools in the conference they would be in the Lone Star state at least once if not twice per season. But the Big 12 would desperately need to go to divisions. So who goes with them?

Well, if U.S.C. would leave the PAC 12 that would make quite the dynamic and with Notre Dame would raise conference revenues easily into mid 50's range. The trouble would then be twofold. Minor sports travel would still be a mess. Second the Big 12 would need to drop the number of conference games to 8 to give the Irish some flexibility. They would want to keep a game in the Southeast in either Georgia or Florida, they would want to keep 1 of the Cali schools but if U.S.C. came with them that can be one of the 8 conference games. They could keep a game in New England with Syracuse or B.C. and still have one left for a Big 10 match up.

Iowa State and Kansas might not be too bad on the travel, but a Northern Division would be in order to help the minor sports. If USC couldn't then perhaps Missouri, Louisville, or Nebraska could make such a move, or better yet Miami so the Big 12 could pick up Sunshine State recruiting trips. So there are possibilities.

I don't consider it likely, but if forced to choose a permanent home among the P5 that one would probably come with less overall hassle than any of the others while offering them a reasonable chance at the playoffs on a solid year and giving them at least 3 conference games of National Exposure and leaving them a couple more.

And if the Irish and Trojans could make the party then perhaps the LHN becomes the Big 12N after all.

In short it's the only conference where their numbers line up for a pay raise without damaging their chances for the playoffs, and without taking a bath financially, and it provides them at least an equal voice with Texas, Oklahoma, and U.S.C.

I find that interesting, never talked about, and from a data standpoint much more compelling than any of the other scenarios.

As with all things Notre Dame, they will want status quo. But if forced to ever have to join, I wonder if the ACC or Big 10 are really the only options, or even the best or healthiest ones.

BTW JR, lots of folks have looked at Notre Dame joining the Big 12.
Dodds pursued Notre Dame relentlessly. On the web-site NDNation (TerryD posts there in a forum called Rock's House) there was quite a debate for a long period of time among old line Notre Dame alums.
Ultimately they liked the idea of playing Texas and Oklahoma (and obviously Southern Cal in your proposal), however playing a number of conference games in places like Ames, Manhattan, Waco, Stillwater and Lubbock was a non-starter.

(02-10-2021 03:25 AM)JRsec Wrote:  

(02-10-2021 02:32 AM)Transic_nyc Wrote:  I wonder if adding Stanford and USC to the west and Notre Dame and Pitt to the east would do the trick. Pitt would bring a true ND rival and revive the rivalry between the Panthers and the Mountaineers. I believe that the Big 12 was talking to Pitt before the ACC snatched them. Had Pitt been taken then that would have been a major lure, especially if they could've brought in the Trojans to boot.

Stanford would give the Domers that second option in California that they want.

I can't see a second Cali school independent in thought enough to make that bold of a move. I think the two state schools would stick and Stanford being more to the North and solidly aligned with the two state schools and tied to Washington and Oregon as sticking as well.

Maybe one of the Arizona schools like Arizona State which isn't AAU might make that move. Then what you suggest would look more like this:

Arizona State, Baylor, Oklahoma State, Texas, Texas Christian, Texas Tech, Southern Cal

Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Notre Dame, Oklahoma, Pittsburgh, West Virginia,

That gives you 2 top brands in each division. You play 6 games with your division and 2 permanent crossover so ND can have USC and OU could have Texas & OSU and 1 rotating game. That keeps minor sport travel more central as basketball and baseball could have divisional home and home series and 1 game each in hoops with the other division and mid week games in baseball against them. Both those sports have tournaments so more crossover play is guaranteed.

Then the PAC could go back to 10 teams and play the round robin and have 3 open dates.

But frankly I'm not so sure that anymore than Notre Dame and USC would be necessary. That leaves more room on schedules with just 5 division games and 3 crossovers you have 4 free slots left for flexibility. What's more is N.D. could buy out a lot easier than Pitt and USC could be a free agent by 2024.

The big issue here that I see is that neither USC, Texas, Oklahoma and Notre Dame could make it work through the Big 12. It would have to be through a new conference. There are many interesting ways that could happen. Do you allow SC to bring their local rival UCLA with them? Would UCLA join? That would put the Rose Bowl and the Coliseum both in play. Then you could add BYU for the Mormons vs Catholics aspect of it. Arizona State for the Phoenix market. As for Texahoma, I think we'd have to leave out Lubbock and Stillwater and leave in the two Texas privates.

In the East, add in Pitt, Louisville, Miami and maybe Boston College for the Northeast demos.

#14 would have to be Navy. They'd fit in the Western division with SC, ND and Pitt. Another national program that would complement ND, SC, Texas and BYU.

West: Southern Cal, UCLA, BYU, Arizona State, Notre Dame, Navy, Pitt

East: Texas, TCU, Oklahoma, Miami, Louisville, Baylor, Boston College


The obvious glaring issue is Olympic sports but for football it would be a fascinating national conference.