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Kit-Cat Online
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Post: #101
RE: John Marinatto
(02-20-2021 11:09 AM)Jackson1011 Wrote:  I remember WVU having to play at Franklin Field/against Temple because the Vet was being used for something else and the wvu coaches complaining how bad the turf/facilities were. Getting rid of Temple was more then just wins/losses

Jackson

Temple was a mistake at the time. They should have gone with ECU instead. Rutgers just built a new stadium but it was too much to have 2 projects (Temple, Rutgers) in the same region.
02-20-2021 11:34 AM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #102
RE: John Marinatto
(02-20-2021 11:29 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 05:49 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I'm old enough to remember when Penn State men's hoops (this was in the 1970s and 1980s) were truly an afterthought to football. The program was not even remotely known on a national level and rarely enjoyed much more than modest success. No doubt, Penn State inevitably and eventually was bound for the Big Ten — whether it had done a stay in an all-sports Northeast league or not.

Another consideration is that at the time back in in the 80's the two dominant recruiting schools in the Midwest were outside of the B1G; Notre Dame and Penn State.

That is who the B1G thought they needed to become the #1 football conference and they were even willing to take in Penn State by itself as an 11th while giving ND a few more years to come on board.

Penn State in the 80's was on a mission to have one of the largest stadiums in college football. They had outgrown Pitt, Syracuse and WVU. In the 60's they were on the same level but the 70's changed everything.

Penn State is kind of like Texas A&M. They only had 48,000 seats as late as 1976. They are just too big to be in an entry level major conference anymore. XII isn't really entry level but the SWC was and the BE definitely was taking in newbies like Virginia Tech and Rutgers.


I do not recall Penn State's stadium seating only 48,000 in mid-1970s. Interesting.
02-20-2021 11:46 AM
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Post: #103
RE: John Marinatto
(02-20-2021 11:46 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(02-20-2021 11:29 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 05:49 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I'm old enough to remember when Penn State men's hoops (this was in the 1970s and 1980s) were truly an afterthought to football. The program was not even remotely known on a national level and rarely enjoyed much more than modest success. No doubt, Penn State inevitably and eventually was bound for the Big Ten — whether it had done a stay in an all-sports Northeast league or not.

Another consideration is that at the time back in in the 80's the two dominant recruiting schools in the Midwest were outside of the B1G; Notre Dame and Penn State.

That is who the B1G thought they needed to become the #1 football conference and they were even willing to take in Penn State by itself as an 11th while giving ND a few more years to come on board.

Penn State in the 80's was on a mission to have one of the largest stadiums in college football. They had outgrown Pitt, Syracuse and WVU. In the 60's they were on the same level but the 70's changed everything.

Penn State is kind of like Texas A&M. They only had 48,000 seats as late as 1976. They are just too big to be in an entry level major conference anymore. XII isn't really entry level but the SWC was and the BE definitely was taking in newbies like Virginia Tech and Rutgers.


I do not recall Penn State's stadium seating only 48,000 in mid-1970s. Interesting.

That was Texas A&M with the 48k seats.

Penn State had 46k as late as 1971.
(This post was last modified: 02-20-2021 12:12 PM by Kit-Cat.)
02-20-2021 12:11 PM
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Post: #104
RE: John Marinatto
(02-20-2021 11:09 AM)Jackson1011 Wrote:  I remember WVU having to play at Franklin Field/against Temple because the Vet was being used for something else and the wvu coaches complaining how bad the turf/facilities were. Getting rid of Temple was more then just wins/losses

Jackson

Temple played games at both Franklin Field and Veterans Stadium in the late 1990s and early 2000s. Scheduling conflicts were with the Phillies (late baseball vs early CFB). Not sure that Veterans Stadium had better turf than Franklin Field...Veterans Stadium had notoriously bad turf and Penn generally invested in player safety. The facility was/is definitely old-school.

The scheduling and turf problems were resolved in 2004 when Lincoln Financial Field and Citizens Bank Park were built.

IMO, because Temple did not have its own stadium, they were not taken seriously.
02-20-2021 12:12 PM
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Post: #105
RE: John Marinatto
For a great while some Penn State fans thought the ACC was a more logical landing spot than a Midwest conference. With Maryland and Rutgers also in there now its a better fit.

However for Notre Dame, not only does the ACC have some of the east coast competitors but also a better academic fit with all the private schools. Penn State didn't largely feel the ACC schools were on its level academically as a research university.

Its an institutional fit thing.
(This post was last modified: 02-20-2021 12:21 PM by Kit-Cat.)
02-20-2021 12:19 PM
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Post: #106
RE: John Marinatto
(02-20-2021 12:11 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(02-20-2021 11:46 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(02-20-2021 11:29 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 05:49 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I'm old enough to remember when Penn State men's hoops (this was in the 1970s and 1980s) were truly an afterthought to football. The program was not even remotely known on a national level and rarely enjoyed much more than modest success. No doubt, Penn State inevitably and eventually was bound for the Big Ten — whether it had done a stay in an all-sports Northeast league or not.

Another consideration is that at the time back in in the 80's the two dominant recruiting schools in the Midwest were outside of the B1G; Notre Dame and Penn State.

That is who the B1G thought they needed to become the #1 football conference and they were even willing to take in Penn State by itself as an 11th while giving ND a few more years to come on board.

Penn State in the 80's was on a mission to have one of the largest stadiums in college football. They had outgrown Pitt, Syracuse and WVU. In the 60's they were on the same level but the 70's changed everything.

Penn State is kind of like Texas A&M. They only had 48,000 seats as late as 1976. They are just too big to be in an entry level major conference anymore. XII isn't really entry level but the SWC was and the BE definitely was taking in newbies like Virginia Tech and Rutgers.


I do not recall Penn State's stadium seating only 48,000 in mid-1970s. Interesting.

That was Texas A&M with the 48k seats.

Penn State had 46k as late as 1971.

Ah. My fumble.
02-20-2021 12:28 PM
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Post: #107
RE: John Marinatto
(02-20-2021 12:12 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  
(02-20-2021 11:09 AM)Jackson1011 Wrote:  I remember WVU having to play at Franklin Field/against Temple because the Vet was being used for something else and the wvu coaches complaining how bad the turf/facilities were. Getting rid of Temple was more then just wins/losses

Jackson

Temple played games at both Franklin Field and Veterans Stadium in the late 1990s and early 2000s. Scheduling conflicts were with the Phillies (late baseball vs early CFB). Not sure that Veterans Stadium had better turf than Franklin Field...Veterans Stadium had notoriously bad turf and Penn generally invested in player safety. The facility was/is definitely old-school.

The scheduling and turf problems were resolved in 2004 when Lincoln Financial Field and Citizens Bank Park were built.

IMO, because Temple did not have its own stadium, they were not taken seriously.

I think there runs a long held bias and attitude toward renting facilities and owning them in college sports. Apparently, if you are a big time program, you should be owning them.

For Temple, there’s no shortage of capable spaces relatively nearby them. But, nothing in their own backyard. A different experience hopping the rails or a bus to get to the stadium as opposed to walking around campus. I thought what they have works. Others feel otherwise.

FWIW, Franklin Field sits right there on Penn’s campus, and there are busses and regional lines right next to it, as well as the major Amtrak and regional rail hubs right nearby at 30th Street. But, if you’ve ever driven 76, or needed to park around those parts...for what is pretty much a landmark stadium that’s great for a history lesson but not so practical for modern experiences? I also don’t think schools want to play at other schools’ venues. That might just be even more gauche than the pro/municiple rental thing...
02-21-2021 10:08 AM
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Post: #108
RE: John Marinatto
(02-21-2021 10:08 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(02-20-2021 12:12 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  
(02-20-2021 11:09 AM)Jackson1011 Wrote:  I remember WVU having to play at Franklin Field/against Temple because the Vet was being used for something else and the wvu coaches complaining how bad the turf/facilities were. Getting rid of Temple was more then just wins/losses

Jackson

Temple played games at both Franklin Field and Veterans Stadium in the late 1990s and early 2000s. Scheduling conflicts were with the Phillies (late baseball vs early CFB). Not sure that Veterans Stadium had better turf than Franklin Field...Veterans Stadium had notoriously bad turf and Penn generally invested in player safety. The facility was/is definitely old-school.

The scheduling and turf problems were resolved in 2004 when Lincoln Financial Field and Citizens Bank Park were built.

IMO, because Temple did not have its own stadium, they were not taken seriously.

I think there runs a long held bias and attitude toward renting facilities and owning them in college sports. Apparently, if you are a big time program, you should be owning them.

For Temple, there’s no shortage of capable spaces relatively nearby them. But, nothing in their own backyard. A different experience hopping the rails or a bus to get to the stadium as opposed to walking around campus. I thought what they have works. Others feel otherwise.

FWIW, Franklin Field sits right there on Penn’s campus, and there are busses and regional lines right next to it, as well as the major Amtrak and regional rail hubs right nearby at 30th Street. But, if you’ve ever driven 76, or needed to park around those parts...for what is pretty much a landmark stadium that’s great for a history lesson but not so practical for modern experiences? I also don’t think schools want to play at other schools’ venues. That might just be even more gauche than the pro/municiple rental thing...

The Big East didn't like that Temple rented Veterans Stadium/Lincoln Financial Field and yet when they kicked Temple out who did they give Temple's football spot to? South Florida. They got a great football stadium on their campus, right? Or do they play in the Bucs stadium???? They've only been an FBS school since 2001.

Double standard.
02-21-2021 10:19 AM
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Post: #109
RE: John Marinatto
(02-20-2021 11:34 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(02-20-2021 11:09 AM)Jackson1011 Wrote:  I remember WVU having to play at Franklin Field/against Temple because the Vet was being used for something else and the wvu coaches complaining how bad the turf/facilities were. Getting rid of Temple was more then just wins/losses

Jackson

Temple was a mistake at the time. They should have gone with ECU instead. Rutgers just built a new stadium but it was too much to have 2 projects (Temple, Rutgers) in the same region.

So football is the criteria for Temple not belonging in the Big East, a school where half of the schools don't even play football?
02-21-2021 10:20 AM
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Post: #110
RE: John Marinatto
(02-21-2021 10:20 AM)schmolik Wrote:  
(02-20-2021 11:34 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(02-20-2021 11:09 AM)Jackson1011 Wrote:  I remember WVU having to play at Franklin Field/against Temple because the Vet was being used for something else and the wvu coaches complaining how bad the turf/facilities were. Getting rid of Temple was more then just wins/losses

Jackson

Temple was a mistake at the time. They should have gone with ECU instead. Rutgers just built a new stadium but it was too much to have 2 projects (Temple, Rutgers) in the same region.

So football is the criteria for Temple not belonging in the Big East, a school where half of the schools don't even play football?

Yes when Nova already had the Philly market.
02-21-2021 12:57 PM
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Post: #111
RE: John Marinatto
Kyle Field attendance timeline:

27,000 (1927-1929)
32,890 (1927–1948)
40,000 (1949–1952)
41,500 (1953–1966)
48,000 (1967–1976)
54,000 (1977–1979)
70,016 (1980–1981)
72,387 (1982–1991--Jackie Sherrill artificially shrunk the size of each bleacher seat)
70,210 (1992–1997)
58,292 (1998-construction)
80,650 (1999–2000)
82,600 (2001–2007)
83,002 (2008–2011)
82,589 (2012–2013)
106,511 (2014)
102,733 (2015–present)
02-25-2021 12:06 AM
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Post: #112
RE: John Marinatto
(02-20-2021 11:29 AM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 05:49 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  I'm old enough to remember when Penn State men's hoops (this was in the 1970s and 1980s) were truly an afterthought to football. The program was not even remotely known on a national level and rarely enjoyed much more than modest success. No doubt, Penn State inevitably and eventually was bound for the Big Ten — whether it had done a stay in an all-sports Northeast league or not.

Another consideration is that at the time back in in the 80's the two dominant recruiting schools in the Midwest were outside of the B1G; Notre Dame and Penn State.

That is who the B1G thought they needed to become the #1 football conference and they were even willing to take in Penn State by itself as an 11th while giving ND a few more years to come on board.

Penn State in the 80's was on a mission to have one of the largest stadiums in college football. They had outgrown Pitt, Syracuse and WVU. In the 60's they were on the same level but the 70's changed everything.

Penn State is kind of like Texas A&M. They only had 48,000 seats as late as 1976. They are just too big to be in an entry level major conference anymore. XII isn't really entry level but the SWC was and the BE definitely was taking in newbies like Virginia Tech and Rutgers.

Penn State is not in the midwest and did not recruit the midwest. In the East, where Penn State is located, Pitt arguably matched if not out-recruited Penn State in the 70s and 80s; not out-coached; and all you need to do is look at draft picks for the decade of the 80s, not to mention pro-bowlers and hall of framers produced. In the 70s things changed; I guess you are talking about stadium size. But to suggest PSU was so "big" in the 80s that it wasn't going to go into a new conference ignores that is actually tried starting it's own (which would have included "newbies" Rutgers and Temple and probably Virginia Tech, and even upgrading UConn was tossed around), not to mention it tried multiple times to get into the Big East for basketball. Had it been in the Big East it may have left anyway. Had it been in the Paterno conference, it probably wouldn't have left while he was running the show, which is why it never happened in the first place. It all hinged on the ego of one man that held nearly absolute power at the institution. PSU absolutely did not go to the Big Ten because of any "research" fit. That's after-the-fact retconning at its most ludicrous.
(This post was last modified: 02-25-2021 01:23 AM by CrazyPaco.)
02-25-2021 12:52 AM
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Post: #113
RE: John Marinatto
(02-21-2021 10:19 AM)schmolik Wrote:  
(02-21-2021 10:08 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(02-20-2021 12:12 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  
(02-20-2021 11:09 AM)Jackson1011 Wrote:  I remember WVU having to play at Franklin Field/against Temple because the Vet was being used for something else and the wvu coaches complaining how bad the turf/facilities were. Getting rid of Temple was more then just wins/losses

Jackson

Temple played games at both Franklin Field and Veterans Stadium in the late 1990s and early 2000s. Scheduling conflicts were with the Phillies (late baseball vs early CFB). Not sure that Veterans Stadium had better turf than Franklin Field...Veterans Stadium had notoriously bad turf and Penn generally invested in player safety. The facility was/is definitely old-school.

The scheduling and turf problems were resolved in 2004 when Lincoln Financial Field and Citizens Bank Park were built.

IMO, because Temple did not have its own stadium, they were not taken seriously.

I think there runs a long held bias and attitude toward renting facilities and owning them in college sports. Apparently, if you are a big time program, you should be owning them.

For Temple, there’s no shortage of capable spaces relatively nearby them. But, nothing in their own backyard. A different experience hopping the rails or a bus to get to the stadium as opposed to walking around campus. I thought what they have works. Others feel otherwise.

FWIW, Franklin Field sits right there on Penn’s campus, and there are busses and regional lines right next to it, as well as the major Amtrak and regional rail hubs right nearby at 30th Street. But, if you’ve ever driven 76, or needed to park around those parts...for what is pretty much a landmark stadium that’s great for a history lesson but not so practical for modern experiences? I also don’t think schools want to play at other schools’ venues. That might just be even more gauche than the pro/municiple rental thing...

The Big East didn't like that Temple rented Veterans Stadium/Lincoln Financial Field and yet when they kicked Temple out who did they give Temple's football spot to? South Florida. They got a great football stadium on their campus, right? Or do they play in the Bucs stadium???? They've only been an FBS school since 2001.

Double standard.

It wasn't the stadium as much as Temple did not have priority scheduling at the stadium and didn't meet specifically stipulated criteria that they had years to achieve (such as attendance and resource commitments). Temple really didn't put in an effort to meet the criteria. There was an administrative faction there at the time that was pushing a downgrade.
(This post was last modified: 02-25-2021 01:01 AM by CrazyPaco.)
02-25-2021 01:00 AM
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Post: #114
RE: John Marinatto
Yeah, Temple had a list of problems. The lack of leadership and commitment to that level of football was the unforgivable one. I’m pretty sure that if Temple gave even a little more, much (like the venue and attendance) could be forgiven. Probably because committing more to the sport would have improved stuff like attendance. I know Philly gets this “pro town” label, but I suspect success would have gotten them good press and coverage in the region. It wouldn’t perhaps cringe as much when a Miami came to town.

Case in point with Rutgers. Irrelevant in football, maybe even more so than Temple, but investing in on-campus facilities earned them a pass, if not respect. Even if the product on the field took time to improve, and never consistently, they did what major programs do: spend and build. That initiative and commitment earned their permanence in the Big East (unlike Temple) and probably got them their Big Ten spot.
02-25-2021 06:53 AM
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Post: #115
RE: John Marinatto
(02-25-2021 01:00 AM)CrazyPaco Wrote:  
(02-21-2021 10:19 AM)schmolik Wrote:  
(02-21-2021 10:08 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(02-20-2021 12:12 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  
(02-20-2021 11:09 AM)Jackson1011 Wrote:  I remember WVU having to play at Franklin Field/against Temple because the Vet was being used for something else and the wvu coaches complaining how bad the turf/facilities were. Getting rid of Temple was more then just wins/losses

Jackson

Temple played games at both Franklin Field and Veterans Stadium in the late 1990s and early 2000s. Scheduling conflicts were with the Phillies (late baseball vs early CFB). Not sure that Veterans Stadium had better turf than Franklin Field...Veterans Stadium had notoriously bad turf and Penn generally invested in player safety. The facility was/is definitely old-school.

The scheduling and turf problems were resolved in 2004 when Lincoln Financial Field and Citizens Bank Park were built.

IMO, because Temple did not have its own stadium, they were not taken seriously.

I think there runs a long held bias and attitude toward renting facilities and owning them in college sports. Apparently, if you are a big time program, you should be owning them.

For Temple, there’s no shortage of capable spaces relatively nearby them. But, nothing in their own backyard. A different experience hopping the rails or a bus to get to the stadium as opposed to walking around campus. I thought what they have works. Others feel otherwise.

FWIW, Franklin Field sits right there on Penn’s campus, and there are busses and regional lines right next to it, as well as the major Amtrak and regional rail hubs right nearby at 30th Street. But, if you’ve ever driven 76, or needed to park around those parts...for what is pretty much a landmark stadium that’s great for a history lesson but not so practical for modern experiences? I also don’t think schools want to play at other schools’ venues. That might just be even more gauche than the pro/municiple rental thing...

The Big East didn't like that Temple rented Veterans Stadium/Lincoln Financial Field and yet when they kicked Temple out who did they give Temple's football spot to? South Florida. They got a great football stadium on their campus, right? Or do they play in the Bucs stadium???? They've only been an FBS school since 2001.

Double standard.

It wasn't the stadium as much as Temple did not have priority scheduling at the stadium and didn't meet specifically stipulated criteria that they had years to achieve (such as attendance and resource commitments). Temple really didn't put in an effort to meet the criteria. There was an administrative faction there at the time that was pushing a downgrade.

And with the advent of the BCS, it was really hard to justify why a Temple could get an automatic bid while other stronger CUSA programs could not
02-25-2021 07:24 AM
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Post: #116
RE: John Marinatto
(02-25-2021 06:53 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  Yeah, Temple had a list of problems. The lack of leadership and commitment to that level of football was the unforgivable one. I’m pretty sure that if Temple gave even a little more, much (like the venue and attendance) could be forgiven. Probably because committing more to the sport would have improved stuff like attendance. I know Philly gets this “pro town” label, but I suspect success would have gotten them good press and coverage in the region. It wouldn’t perhaps cringe as much when a Miami came to town.

Case in point with Rutgers. Irrelevant in football, maybe even more so than Temple, but investing in on-campus facilities earned them a pass, if not respect. Even if the product on the field took time to improve, and never consistently, they did what major programs do: spend and build. That initiative and commitment earned their permanence in the Big East (unlike Temple) and probably got them their Big Ten spot.

There was one year in the Big East where Temple had only 4 home games. Their attendance was only 17,000----for the entire year!

That was easily the worst attendance of any FBS school, at least since the 90s and probably since the I-AA split.
(This post was last modified: 02-25-2021 10:11 AM by bullet.)
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