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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #21
RE: John Marinatto
(02-09-2021 01:59 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 12:05 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 11:48 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 11:40 AM)MemTGRS Wrote:  In my opinion, the Big East was never going to be "all that they can be" (with apologies to the US Army) per declining Penn State in 1981. Regardless of how much their hoops struggled then, they directly snubbed a national top ten fan base that is also by far the largest in the area of PA/NE/NJ/NY. And by a large margin, the biggest financial monster there as well. When I think of all time blunders of conference decisions, I rank it #2 ... only behind Tulane voluntarily exiting the SEC.

I'm not so sure. The Big East, from its inception, was created as a basketball conference. Spurning Penn State was consistent with that mission.

This mission was destabilized (in terms of original membership) once the supreme court overturned the NCAA football TV monopoly in 1984. From that point on, over the next five or so years it became clearer that if you weren't Notre Dame, to maximize football revenues, you needed to be in a major football conference. That's what created tension between the purely hoops schools and the ones with established football programs, and in the long run, probably nothing but a split could resolve it. As it was, the Big East did a pretty good job of forestalling it, more than 25 years.

I’m with MemTGRS on this one. Pitt, Syracuse, and BC were never going to be able to remain in a conference that didn’t prioritize football. The 1984 USSC ruling put the nail in the coffin.

For football to thrive in the Northeast (and for that conference to also be basketball power) the conference that needed to be founded was:

BC
Syracuse
Rutgers
Pittsburgh
Penn St
Temple
WVU
St John’s*
Villanova*
Georgetown*

In the 90s, VT and Miami could have been added as full members. This configuration might have survived.

Don't get me wrong. I *wish* that there was a major football conference in the northeast corridor, with a lineup similar to yours. Mine would be:

Pitt
Penn State
Maryland
Temple
Syracuse
BC
UConn
Rutgers
Navy
West Virginia

But sadly, that will likely never come to fruition.


A strong 10. I might add Army and Buffalo/UMass to go to 12.
(This post was last modified: 02-09-2021 02:13 PM by bill dazzle.)
02-09-2021 02:05 PM
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quo vadis Online
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Post: #22
RE: John Marinatto
(02-09-2021 02:05 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 01:59 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 12:05 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 11:48 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 11:40 AM)MemTGRS Wrote:  In my opinion, the Big East was never going to be "all that they can be" (with apologies to the US Army) per declining Penn State in 1981. Regardless of how much their hoops struggled then, they directly snubbed a national top ten fan base that is also by far the largest in the area of PA/NE/NJ/NY. And by a large margin, the biggest financial monster there as well. When I think of all time blunders of conference decisions, I rank it #2 ... only behind Tulane voluntarily exiting the SEC.

I'm not so sure. The Big East, from its inception, was created as a basketball conference. Spurning Penn State was consistent with that mission.

This mission was destabilized (in terms of original membership) once the supreme court overturned the NCAA football TV monopoly in 1984. From that point on, over the next five or so years it became clearer that if you weren't Notre Dame, to maximize football revenues, you needed to be in a major football conference. That's what created tension between the purely hoops schools and the ones with established football programs, and in the long run, probably nothing but a split could resolve it. As it was, the Big East did a pretty good job of forestalling it, more than 25 years.

I’m with MemTGRS on this one. Pitt, Syracuse, and BC were never going to be able to remain in a conference that didn’t prioritize football. The 1984 USSC ruling put the nail in the coffin.

For football to thrive in the Northeast (and for that conference to also be basketball power) the conference that needed to be founded was:

BC
Syracuse
Rutgers
Pittsburgh
Penn St
Temple
WVU
St John’s*
Villanova*
Georgetown*

In the 90s, VT and Miami could have been added as full members. This configuration might have survived.

Don't get me wrong. I *wish* that there was a major football conference in the northeast corridor, with a lineup similar to yours. Mine would be:

Pitt
Penn State
Maryland
Temple
Syracuse
BC
UConn
Rutgers
Navy
West Virginia

But sadly, that will likely never come to fruition.


A strong 10. I might add Army and Buffalo to go to 12.

If I had to go to 12 and had my druthers, I would add the two Virginia schools, UVA and VT. But they are too enmeshed in the ACC.

So given that reality, yes, I would take Army for sure as #11, and probably ending up having to settle for Buffalo at #12. There really is no good #12, IMO.
02-09-2021 02:14 PM
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TripleA Offline
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Post: #23
RE: John Marinatto
My impression of Marinatto is not good. He never seemed to be proactive, and he said a lot of things that made no sense. I wish I could recall some examples now, but I didn't know there would be a pop quiz years later, lol.

He just constantly gave me the impression he didn't know what he was talking about, and had no idea what to do. Also, when he should have stood up for us, he was mostly silent.

Love or hate Aresco, he advocates for the AAC 24/7. To me, that is the stark difference between the two. Plus, Aresco actually makes sense when he says something. And he says a lot, especially compared to Marinatto.
02-09-2021 02:25 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #24
RE: John Marinatto
(02-09-2021 11:48 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 11:40 AM)MemTGRS Wrote:  In my opinion, the Big East was never going to be "all that they can be" (with apologies to the US Army) per declining Penn State in 1981. Regardless of how much their hoops struggled then, they directly snubbed a national top ten fan base that is also by far the largest in the area of PA/NE/NJ/NY. And by a large margin, the biggest financial monster there as well. When I think of all time blunders of conference decisions, I rank it #2 ... only behind Tulane voluntarily exiting the SEC.

I'm not so sure. The Big East, from its inception, was created as a basketball conference. Spurning Penn State was consistent with that mission.

This mission was destabilized (in terms of original membership) once the supreme court overturned the NCAA football TV monopoly in 1984. From that point on, over the next five or so years it became clearer that if you weren't Notre Dame, to maximize football revenues, you needed to be in a major football conference. That's what created tension between the purely hoops schools and the ones with established football programs, and in the long run, probably nothing but a split could resolve it. As it was, the Big East did a pretty good job of forestalling it, more than 25 years.

For sure, they did a good job keeping the commissioner and his staff employed by the Big East. Was it in the best interests of the schools that were in the Big East at the time of the Supreme Court decision? At the time, and a few years later when they decided to start a football league, the Big East had 3 members (BC, Pitt, Syracuse) who played I-A/FBS football, and 6 (UConn, Georgetown, Providence, St. Johns, Seton Hall, Villanova) who didn't.

Query whether either or both of those two groups would have been better off if they didn't go along with Tranghese's football scheme, and the schools with football eventually left to join an FBS conference while being replaced in the Big East by a few new members that didn't play FBS football.
02-09-2021 02:47 PM
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GoldenWarrior11 Offline
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Post: #25
RE: John Marinatto
There is zero doubt in my mind that if Penn State organized, or gained admittance, into an Eastern All-Sports League in the 80's, they still bolt and head to the Big Ten when they did - which would have inevitably caused the other Northeastern programs to splinter and move off into other leagues. Penn State was always going to be drawn to the Big Ten due to the academic and AAU associations, and the athletic brands within the Big Ten were always going to be superior to that of the Eastern All-Sports League/Big East. The peer associations of Michigan, Ohio State, Wisconsin, Michigan State, Iowa, et al. were just going to supersede associations with Boston College, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, UConn et al.
02-09-2021 02:57 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #26
RE: John Marinatto
(02-09-2021 02:57 PM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  There is zero doubt in my mind that if Penn State organized, or gained admittance, into an Eastern All-Sports League in the 80's, they still bolt and head to the Big Ten when they did - which would have inevitably caused the other Northeastern programs to splinter and move off into other leagues. Penn State was always going to be drawn to the Big Ten due to the academic and AAU associations, and the athletic brands within the Big Ten were always going to be superior to that of the Eastern All-Sports League/Big East. The peer associations of Michigan, Ohio State, Wisconsin, Michigan State, Iowa, et al. were just going to supersede associations with Boston College, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, UConn et al.

There is definitely a very high likelihood that that Penn St would leave an eastern all sports league. The money would have been too good to pass up.

What I do think would be different, had that league been founded, is that it would be easier for the schools left behind to rebuild as they would not have been encumbered by a large basketball faction in their decision making.
02-09-2021 03:48 PM
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MidknightWhiskey Offline
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Post: #27
RE: John Marinatto
(02-09-2021 02:14 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 02:05 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 01:59 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 12:05 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 11:48 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  I'm not so sure. The Big East, from its inception, was created as a basketball conference. Spurning Penn State was consistent with that mission.

This mission was destabilized (in terms of original membership) once the supreme court overturned the NCAA football TV monopoly in 1984. From that point on, over the next five or so years it became clearer that if you weren't Notre Dame, to maximize football revenues, you needed to be in a major football conference. That's what created tension between the purely hoops schools and the ones with established football programs, and in the long run, probably nothing but a split could resolve it. As it was, the Big East did a pretty good job of forestalling it, more than 25 years.

I’m with MemTGRS on this one. Pitt, Syracuse, and BC were never going to be able to remain in a conference that didn’t prioritize football. The 1984 USSC ruling put the nail in the coffin.

For football to thrive in the Northeast (and for that conference to also be basketball power) the conference that needed to be founded was:

BC
Syracuse
Rutgers
Pittsburgh
Penn St
Temple
WVU
St John’s*
Villanova*
Georgetown*

In the 90s, VT and Miami could have been added as full members. This configuration might have survived.

Don't get me wrong. I *wish* that there was a major football conference in the northeast corridor, with a lineup similar to yours. Mine would be:

Pitt
Penn State
Maryland
Temple
Syracuse
BC
UConn
Rutgers
Navy
West Virginia

But sadly, that will likely never come to fruition.


A strong 10. I might add Army and Buffalo to go to 12.

If I had to go to 12 and had my druthers, I would add the two Virginia schools, UVA and VT. But they are too enmeshed in the ACC.

So given that reality, yes, I would take Army for sure as #11, and probably ending up having to settle for Buffalo at #12. There really is no good #12, IMO.

Probably Cinci and Louisville for 11 & 12
02-09-2021 03:51 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #28
RE: John Marinatto
(02-09-2021 02:14 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 02:05 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 01:59 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 12:05 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 11:48 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  I'm not so sure. The Big East, from its inception, was created as a basketball conference. Spurning Penn State was consistent with that mission.

This mission was destabilized (in terms of original membership) once the supreme court overturned the NCAA football TV monopoly in 1984. From that point on, over the next five or so years it became clearer that if you weren't Notre Dame, to maximize football revenues, you needed to be in a major football conference. That's what created tension between the purely hoops schools and the ones with established football programs, and in the long run, probably nothing but a split could resolve it. As it was, the Big East did a pretty good job of forestalling it, more than 25 years.

I’m with MemTGRS on this one. Pitt, Syracuse, and BC were never going to be able to remain in a conference that didn’t prioritize football. The 1984 USSC ruling put the nail in the coffin.

For football to thrive in the Northeast (and for that conference to also be basketball power) the conference that needed to be founded was:

BC
Syracuse
Rutgers
Pittsburgh
Penn St
Temple
WVU
St John’s*
Villanova*
Georgetown*

In the 90s, VT and Miami could have been added as full members. This configuration might have survived.

Don't get me wrong. I *wish* that there was a major football conference in the northeast corridor, with a lineup similar to yours. Mine would be:

Pitt
Penn State
Maryland
Temple
Syracuse
BC
UConn
Rutgers
Navy
West Virginia

But sadly, that will likely never come to fruition.


A strong 10. I might add Army and Buffalo to go to 12.

If I had to go to 12 and had my druthers, I would add the two Virginia schools, UVA and VT. But they are too enmeshed in the ACC.

So given that reality, yes, I would take Army for sure as #11, and probably ending up having to settle for Buffalo at #12. There really is no good #12, IMO.

As MidnightWhiskey notes, if we go outside the Northeast, Nos. 11 and 12 are Cincy and Louisville in this hypothetical. Maybe your Northeast league takes Army, stays at 11, and plays a 10-game round-robin football schedule.
(This post was last modified: 02-09-2021 05:45 PM by bill dazzle.)
02-09-2021 05:43 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #29
RE: John Marinatto
I'm old enough to remember when Penn State men's hoops (this was in the 1970s and 1980s) were truly an afterthought to football. The program was not even remotely known on a national level and rarely enjoyed much more than modest success. No doubt, Penn State inevitably and eventually was bound for the Big Ten — whether it had done a stay in an all-sports Northeast league or not.
02-09-2021 05:49 PM
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Post: #30
RE: John Marinatto
Meatball Marinatto. In charge of the BE when the ACC stole teams right from under his nose. Reacted to slow to everything. Should have twisted arms and convinced BE to accept ESPN's offer as well as go to 12 football schools which would have secured future.

Basically, a failure.
02-09-2021 07:29 PM
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Post: #31
RE: John Marinatto
(02-09-2021 05:43 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 02:14 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 02:05 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 01:59 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 12:05 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I’m with MemTGRS on this one. Pitt, Syracuse, and BC were never going to be able to remain in a conference that didn’t prioritize football. The 1984 USSC ruling put the nail in the coffin.

For football to thrive in the Northeast (and for that conference to also be basketball power) the conference that needed to be founded was:

BC
Syracuse
Rutgers
Pittsburgh
Penn St
Temple
WVU
St John’s*
Villanova*
Georgetown*

In the 90s, VT and Miami could have been added as full members. This configuration might have survived.

Don't get me wrong. I *wish* that there was a major football conference in the northeast corridor, with a lineup similar to yours. Mine would be:

Pitt
Penn State
Maryland
Temple
Syracuse
BC
UConn
Rutgers
Navy
West Virginia

But sadly, that will likely never come to fruition.


A strong 10. I might add Army and Buffalo to go to 12.

If I had to go to 12 and had my druthers, I would add the two Virginia schools, UVA and VT. But they are too enmeshed in the ACC.

So given that reality, yes, I would take Army for sure as #11, and probably ending up having to settle for Buffalo at #12. There really is no good #12, IMO.

As MidnightWhiskey notes, if we go outside the Northeast, Nos. 11 and 12 are Cincy and Louisville in this hypothetical. Maybe your Northeast league takes Army, stays at 11, and plays a 10-game round-robin football schedule.

To me, the whole point of the league would be to keep it in the Northeast Corridor, so schools like Louisville and Cincy would be out of bounds.
02-09-2021 07:33 PM
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MidknightWhiskey Offline
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Post: #32
RE: John Marinatto
(02-09-2021 07:33 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 05:43 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 02:14 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 02:05 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 01:59 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Don't get me wrong. I *wish* that there was a major football conference in the northeast corridor, with a lineup similar to yours. Mine would be:

Pitt
Penn State
Maryland
Temple
Syracuse
BC
UConn
Rutgers
Navy
West Virginia

But sadly, that will likely never come to fruition.


A strong 10. I might add Army and Buffalo to go to 12.

If I had to go to 12 and had my druthers, I would add the two Virginia schools, UVA and VT. But they are too enmeshed in the ACC.

So given that reality, yes, I would take Army for sure as #11, and probably ending up having to settle for Buffalo at #12. There really is no good #12, IMO.

As MidnightWhiskey notes, if we go outside the Northeast, Nos. 11 and 12 are Cincy and Louisville in this hypothetical. Maybe your Northeast league takes Army, stays at 11, and plays a 10-game round-robin football schedule.

To me, the whole point of the league would be to keep it in the Northeast Corridor, so schools like Louisville and Cincy would be out of bounds.

Agreed but if they were compelled to go to 12 that would be a better addition and stretch the geography a bit. However that's a good 10 team conference build.

Lets play this out since it's the offseason and I'm bored.
New Northeast Conference: Pitt, Penn State, Maryland, Temple, Syracuse, BC, UConn, Rutgers, Navy, West Virginia

Would leave the AAC at 9, ACC at 11, Big 10 at 11 & Big 12 at 9 all of which become more geographically centric. Keeping with the geography ACC adds UCF, Big 10 adds Cincinnati, Big 12 adds Houston. AAC then down to 6 members is forced to backfill from CUSA & Sunbelt members that are willing to invest in facility upgrades etc to keep up with the remaining teams that have significant buyout money coming in from 5 members leaving.
02-09-2021 07:56 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #33
RE: John Marinatto
(02-09-2021 07:29 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  Meatball Marinatto. In charge of the BE when the ACC stole teams right from under his nose. Reacted to slow to everything. Should have twisted arms and convinced BE to accept ESPN's offer as well as go to 12 football schools which would have secured future.

Basically, a failure.

Was there really anything he could do to keep Syracuse and Pittsburgh in?

The raid the decade prior dealt a crippling blow to the Big East. It was to be expected that if the ACC came back for more that the schools offered would jump at the stability and cash.
02-09-2021 08:46 PM
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Post: #34
RE: John Marinatto
It’s a name I thought I’d never hear again in my life... hang on, vomit in the back of my mouth.
02-09-2021 09:08 PM
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Post: #35
RE: John Marinatto
(02-08-2021 09:55 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Having lived through Marinatto's 2009-2012 reign, I will say that IMO he got more criticism than he deserved. Yes, he could have been more proactive about realignment rather than sitting like a duck for the ACC to raid us. Failure to do that was a fatal mistake for the old Big East.

But in the end, he did bring us a $1.4 Billion TV contract that, had it been ratified, might have kept the conference together. The presidents rejected it, an unwise move. Blame Marinatto for not convincing them otherwise if you want, but ultimately that was on them, not him.

In the end, history has been too harsh on him. I don't think anyone could have prevented Syracuse and Pitt from leaving for the ACC, and once they left, everything else that happened was inevitable.
The TV contract was bigger than the ACC's at the time.
02-09-2021 09:10 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #36
RE: John Marinatto
(02-09-2021 07:33 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 05:43 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 02:14 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 02:05 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 01:59 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Don't get me wrong. I *wish* that there was a major football conference in the northeast corridor, with a lineup similar to yours. Mine would be:

Pitt
Penn State
Maryland
Temple
Syracuse
BC
UConn
Rutgers
Navy
West Virginia

But sadly, that will likely never come to fruition.


A strong 10. I might add Army and Buffalo to go to 12.

If I had to go to 12 and had my druthers, I would add the two Virginia schools, UVA and VT. But they are too enmeshed in the ACC.

So given that reality, yes, I would take Army for sure as #11, and probably ending up having to settle for Buffalo at #12. There really is no good #12, IMO.

As MidknightWhiskey notes, if we go outside the Northeast, Nos. 11 and 12 are Cincy and Louisville in this hypothetical. Maybe your Northeast league takes Army, stays at 11, and plays a 10-game round-robin football schedule.

To me, the whole point of the league would be to keep it in the Northeast Corridor, so schools like Louisville and Cincy would be out of bounds.

Good point. Maybe in your hypothetical, that league should simply stay at 10. But I would want Army at No. 11 if I were a fan of any of the 10. Just like I want Army in the AAC as a Cincy and Memphis fan.
(This post was last modified: 02-09-2021 09:43 PM by bill dazzle.)
02-09-2021 09:38 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #37
RE: John Marinatto
(02-09-2021 08:46 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 07:29 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  Meatball Marinatto. In charge of the BE when the ACC stole teams right from under his nose. Reacted to slow to everything. Should have twisted arms and convinced BE to accept ESPN's offer as well as go to 12 football schools which would have secured future.

Basically, a failure.

Was there really anything he could do to keep Syracuse and Pittsburgh in?

The raid the decade prior dealt a crippling blow to the Big East. It was to be expected that if the ACC came back for more that the schools offered would jump at the stability and cash.


That's a good point, Fighting-M. The Big East could have been led by Mike Slive or James E. Delany at the time and still likely would have been raided.
02-09-2021 09:42 PM
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BullsFanInTX Offline
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Post: #38
RE: John Marinatto
(02-09-2021 08:46 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(02-09-2021 07:29 PM)BullsFanInTX Wrote:  Meatball Marinatto. In charge of the BE when the ACC stole teams right from under his nose. Reacted to slow to everything. Should have twisted arms and convinced BE to accept ESPN's offer as well as go to 12 football schools which would have secured future.

Basically, a failure.

Was there really anything he could do to keep Syracuse and Pittsburgh in?

The raid the decade prior dealt a crippling blow to the Big East. It was to be expected that if the ACC came back for more that the schools offered would jump at the stability and cash.

He could have convinced the BE prez's to accept the ESPN deal, which MAY have caused them to stay, particularly if the TV deal also included expansion to 12 among the football schools. Remember this was a very big TV deal at the time.

He was very slow reacting. His first job should have been adding TCU, UCF, Memphis, and someone else. An 8 team football conference is too unstable. He failed to take action on that.

The BE was not that far behind the ACC at the time and was probably co-equal in basketball.
(This post was last modified: 02-09-2021 10:56 PM by BullsFanInTX.)
02-09-2021 10:54 PM
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BullsFanInTX Offline
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Post: #39
RE: John Marinatto
(02-09-2021 09:08 PM)RUScarlets Wrote:  It’s a name I thought I’d never hear again in my life... hang on, vomit in the back of my mouth.

Yeah, Rutgers got on the last lifeboat out of town.
02-09-2021 10:55 PM
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Post: #40
RE: John Marinatto
(02-08-2021 06:18 PM)bullet Wrote:  Worst commissioner ever.

Villanova was the straw that broke the camel's back. They were trying to do FBS on the cheap. And then he was apparently pushing Navy which guaranteed the Big East would not be considered a power conference. He alienated the football schools and the basketball schools.

Navy was wanted. It was a legacy consideration that seemed to have the support for years but Navy resisted because it felt it couldn’t compete with those schools. Eventually, they got good, and their confidence grew, and they considered.

But the Villanova thing was just a mess. Not just for the conference, but even at the school itself. What could have been had Villanova not won the FCS title, as awful as that sounds, since that seemed to generate a lot of noise on their consideration. Just nevermind the gates at their playoff games. Magically, they would have a crowd at the Linc or Citizens Bank Park? To me, that’s all Meatball for wanting to appease everyone but pleasing nobody at the same time.
02-10-2021 02:16 AM
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