(01-25-2021 07:52 PM)herdfan129 Wrote:  UCF are the 2017 National Champs.

(01-25-2021 09:11 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-25-2021 07:52 PM)herdfan129 Wrote:  UCF are the 2017 National Champs.

Excellent troll post, Herdfan.

(01-25-2021 11:04 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(01-25-2021 09:11 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-25-2021 07:52 PM)herdfan129 Wrote:  UCF are the 2017 National Champs.

Excellent troll post, Herdfan.

Dude, Alabama wins the official CFP title, wins the traditional AP and Coaches and NFF polls, wins the old BCS formula and almost every other computer. But one piddly often-wackjob computer out of like 20 puts UCF #1 and that makes them "co-champions"?

That is truly hilarious.

(01-24-2021 12:54 PM)Kit-Cat Wrote:  Phelan Power Poll Final Top 25

1. Alabama
2. Ball State
3. Louisiana
4. BYU
5. Coastal Carolina
6. Cincinnati
7. Ohio State
8. San Jose State
9. Iowa State
10. Clemson
11. Oklahoma
12. Buffalo
13. Texas A&M
14. Northwestern
15. Notre Dame
16. Oklahoma State
17. Southern Cal
18. Boise State
19. Miami Fl
20. Georgia
21. Texas
22. Nevada
23. Stanford
24. Indiana
25. Iowa

Phelan Power Poll conference ratings for 2020:

1. FBS Independents
2. Pac 12
3. MAC
4. Mtn. West
5. Big XII
6. Big Ten
7. American
8. Atlantic Coast
9. Sun Belt
10. Southeastern
11. Conference USA

(01-25-2021 07:20 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-25-2021 05:14 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(01-25-2021 03:38 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-25-2021 02:57 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(01-25-2021 11:29 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  How can I be wrong when the above two links prove that, at least with respect to CM, I am right? Did you bother to take a look?

The NCAA book never recorded the Alabama, OK-State and Notre Dame "Colley-Matrix" champions - until UCF shouted about it and got theirs in. If you don't believe me, look at all the other books out there. Here's a link to the 2014 book, which is up to and including FSU winning the last BCS title. Look on page 79: No listing of ND being CM #1, no listing of OK-State being CM #1. None of that gets listed until UCF in 2017.

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_r...14/fbs.pdf

I'm right. And, "listing" something isn't the same as endorsing or honoring it. Many times, the NCAA has said that it does not endorse or recognize an FBS champion, so what the NCAA has to say about all this is really irrelevant anyway. The whole idea behind FBS was that it is composed of schools that did not want to compete for an NCAA-sponsored football championship. So citing the NCAA as validating your title claim is ipso-fatso bogus.

There are more than a dozen systems listed, some I had never heard of. So even if you are technically right (I'm not going to waste the time to check), you are totally wrong. Colley was one of the BCS systems. Even though I think it was awful, being part of the BCS made it one of the top 6 or 7 systems and the NCAA should have been listing it along with the others it listed.

The NCAA actually was doing it sensibly before UCF pressure. Take a look at the listing in the 2014 NCAA Rule Book for 2011, before the UCF nonsense:

******************************************
2011
Alabama: Berryman, ^BCS, USA Today, AP, Dunkel, FW, NFF

With this note at the bottom:

^BCS includes all
national champion major selectors not mentioned above.
******************************************

See? Colley was included, but only insofar as its function, namely as one of several BCS computers. So the BCS listing captured the totality of computers included in the BCS formula, which makes sense, because they had no value as independent entities, only as part of the formula.

Once the BCS ceased to exist, the BCS and its computers were gone too. Here's the listing for Ohio State as 2014 champ, from the 2017 NCAA book:

********************************************
2014
Ohio St.: College Football Playoff, AP, FW-NFF, USA Today
*********************************************

Who do we see listed? The CFP obviously, the AP and Coaches polls, and the NFF, which awards the Macarthur Bowl, a longstanding national title trophy. None of the piddly BCS component computers are mentioned, nor should they be, as there role was as a part of the BCS formula, never as a standalone entity.

Not only am I right about the specifics described in the last post, I'm right about the NCAA never should have listed UCF's Colley win. And it is clear that it never intended to, because it had never done that before for other Colley winners.

Bogus UCF pressure was applied to provide a veneer of respectability to their absurd claim.

No. You are making absurd claims. I have a 2007 NCAA record book downloaded.
From page 78 here is 2003 which had a split title. Colley is listed for all years from 1992 when it started:

2003
LSU: Billingsley, Colley Matrix, DeVold, Dunkel, FACT,
Massey, NFF, Sagarin, Sagarin (ELO-Chess), Seattle
Times, USA/ESPN, Wolfe
Oklahoma: Berryman
Southern California: AP, Eck, FW, Matthews, NY
Times, Sporting News

Look again my friend, Colley is not listed from 1992 onwards, but only from 2001, when it became a part of the BCS of formula. And, it is not listed after 2006. Look at all the listings beginning after 2007, when the BCS set up a separate BCS title game independent of the bowls. From that point on, only "BCS" was listed, not the individual BCS computer components. That's it. Here's the link to the 2014 book where you can see all this. Page 79:

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_r...14/fbs.pdf


The most damning evidence is the existence of the 2010 - 2017 books, none of which listed separate Colley computer championships, not for OK State in 2011, not for ND in 2012, and not for Alabama in 2017. None of that garbage was listed - until UCF raised a hue and cry about their fake Colley title in 2017.

That's just the facts, look it up in the books. I provided links for you above.

Looks like they just got lazy after 2007. This comes from 2015 page 104. In 2007 they listed 32 polls other than AP and Coaches. It was up to 37 in 2015.

NATIONAL CHAMPION MAJOR SELECTIONS (1896 TO PRESENT)
The criteria for being included in this historical list of poll selectors is that the poll be national in scope, either through distribution in newspaper, television, radio
and/or computer online. The list includes both former selectors, who were instrumental in the sport of college football, and selectors who were among the Bowl
Championship Series (BCS) selectors.
Selection Active Seasons Predated Total
Selector Format First Last Total Seasons Rankings
Associated Press (AP) Poll 1936 2014 79 79
Clyde Berryman Math 1990 2011 26 1920-89 92
Richard Billingsley Math 1970 2014 45 1869-70, 1872-1969 145
William Boand Math 1930 1960 31 1919-29 42
College Football Researchers Association Poll 1982 2014 17 1869-81; 1993-2008 144
Wes Colley Math 1992 2014 23 23
Congrove Computer Rankings Math 1993 2014 22 22
Parke Davis Research 1933 1933 1 1869-1932 65
Harry DeVold Math 1945 2006 63 1939-44 69
Frank Dickinson Math 1926 1940 15 1924-25 17
Dunkel Math 1929 2014 86 86
Steve Eck Math 1983 2005 22 22
Football News Poll 1958 2002 45 45
Football Writers Association (FW) Poll 1954 2013 60 60
FWAA-NFF Grantland Rice Super 16 Poll 2014 - 1 1
Harris Interactive# Poll 2005 2013 9 9
Helms Athletic Foundation Poll 1941 1982 42 1883-1940 100
Deke Houlgate Math 1927 1958 32 1885-1926 72
International News Service Poll 1952 1957 6 6
Edward Litkenhous Math 1934 1984 51 51
Kenneth Massey Math 1995 2014 20 20
Herman Matthews Math 1966 2006 41 41
National Championship Foundation Poll 1980 2000 21 1869-70, 1872-1979 131
National Football Foundation (NFF) Poll 1959 2013 51 51
New York Times Math 1979 2004 26 26
Richard Poling Math 1935 1984 50 1924-34 61
David Rothman (FACT) Math 1968 2006 42 42
Jeff Sagarin Math 1978 2014 37 1919-77 96
Sporting News Poll 1975 2006 32 32
United Press International (UPI) Poll 1950 1995 44 44
UPI/NFF Poll 1991 1992 2 2
USA Today Poll 2005 2013 9 9
USA Today/Amway Poll 2014 - 1 1
USA Today/CNN Poll 1982 1996 15 15
USA Today/ESPN (USA/ESPN) Poll 1997 2004 8 8
USA Today/National Football Foundation Poll 1993 1994 2 2
Caspar Whitney Math 1905 1907 3 3
Paul Williamson Math 1932 1963 32 32
Peter Wolfe Math 1992 2014 23 23
#Did not compile final ranking after the bowl games so it is not included on the year-by-year listings.

Here's from page 111
2006
Florida: AP, Berryman, Billingsley, Colley, DeVold,
Dunkel, FACT, FW, Massey, Matthews, NFF,
Sagarin, Sagarin (ELO-Chess), Seattle Times,
Sporting News, USA Today, Wolfe
2007
LSU: Berryman, ^BCS, USA Today, AP, Dunkel,
FW, NFF

Now I think its ridiculous for UCF to claim that title. But your argument is technical and pretty ridiculous too. Something only someone jealous of UCF would make.

(01-26-2021 06:24 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(01-25-2021 07:20 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-25-2021 05:14 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(01-25-2021 03:38 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(01-25-2021 02:57 PM)bullet Wrote:  There are more than a dozen systems listed, some I had never heard of. So even if you are technically right (I'm not going to waste the time to check), you are totally wrong. Colley was one of the BCS systems. Even though I think it was awful, being part of the BCS made it one of the top 6 or 7 systems and the NCAA should have been listing it along with the others it listed.

The NCAA actually was doing it sensibly before UCF pressure. Take a look at the listing in the 2014 NCAA Rule Book for 2011, before the UCF nonsense:

******************************************
2011
Alabama: Berryman, ^BCS, USA Today, AP, Dunkel, FW, NFF

With this note at the bottom:

^BCS includes all
national champion major selectors not mentioned above.
******************************************

See? Colley was included, but only insofar as its function, namely as one of several BCS computers. So the BCS listing captured the totality of computers included in the BCS formula, which makes sense, because they had no value as independent entities, only as part of the formula.

Once the BCS ceased to exist, the BCS and its computers were gone too. Here's the listing for Ohio State as 2014 champ, from the 2017 NCAA book:

********************************************
2014
Ohio St.: College Football Playoff, AP, FW-NFF, USA Today
*********************************************

Who do we see listed? The CFP obviously, the AP and Coaches polls, and the NFF, which awards the Macarthur Bowl, a longstanding national title trophy. None of the piddly BCS component computers are mentioned, nor should they be, as there role was as a part of the BCS formula, never as a standalone entity.

Not only am I right about the specifics described in the last post, I'm right about the NCAA never should have listed UCF's Colley win. And it is clear that it never intended to, because it had never done that before for other Colley winners.

Bogus UCF pressure was applied to provide a veneer of respectability to their absurd claim.

No. You are making absurd claims. I have a 2007 NCAA record book downloaded.
From page 78 here is 2003 which had a split title. Colley is listed for all years from 1992 when it started:

2003
LSU: Billingsley, Colley Matrix, DeVold, Dunkel, FACT,
Massey, NFF, Sagarin, Sagarin (ELO-Chess), Seattle
Times, USA/ESPN, Wolfe
Oklahoma: Berryman
Southern California: AP, Eck, FW, Matthews, NY
Times, Sporting News

Look again my friend, Colley is not listed from 1992 onwards, but only from 2001, when it became a part of the BCS of formula. And, it is not listed after 2006. Look at all the listings beginning after 2007, when the BCS set up a separate BCS title game independent of the bowls. From that point on, only "BCS" was listed, not the individual BCS computer components. That's it. Here's the link to the 2014 book where you can see all this. Page 79:

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_r...14/fbs.pdf


The most damning evidence is the existence of the 2010 - 2017 books, none of which listed separate Colley computer championships, not for OK State in 2011, not for ND in 2012, and not for Alabama in 2017. None of that garbage was listed - until UCF raised a hue and cry about their fake Colley title in 2017.

That's just the facts, look it up in the books. I provided links for you above.

Looks like they just got lazy after 2007. This comes from 2015 page 104. In 2007 they listed 32 polls other than AP and Coaches. It was up to 37 in 2015.

NATIONAL CHAMPION MAJOR SELECTIONS (1896 TO PRESENT)
The criteria for being included in this historical list of poll selectors is that the poll be national in scope, either through distribution in newspaper, television, radio
and/or computer online. The list includes both former selectors, who were instrumental in the sport of college football, and selectors who were among the Bowl
Championship Series (BCS) selectors.
Selection Active Seasons Predated Total
Selector Format First Last Total Seasons Rankings
Associated Press (AP) Poll 1936 2014 79 79
Clyde Berryman Math 1990 2011 26 1920-89 92
Richard Billingsley Math 1970 2014 45 1869-70, 1872-1969 145
William Boand Math 1930 1960 31 1919-29 42
College Football Researchers Association Poll 1982 2014 17 1869-81; 1993-2008 144
Wes Colley Math 1992 2014 23 23
Congrove Computer Rankings Math 1993 2014 22 22
Parke Davis Research 1933 1933 1 1869-1932 65
Harry DeVold Math 1945 2006 63 1939-44 69
Frank Dickinson Math 1926 1940 15 1924-25 17
Dunkel Math 1929 2014 86 86
Steve Eck Math 1983 2005 22 22
Football News Poll 1958 2002 45 45
Football Writers Association (FW) Poll 1954 2013 60 60
FWAA-NFF Grantland Rice Super 16 Poll 2014 - 1 1
Harris Interactive# Poll 2005 2013 9 9
Helms Athletic Foundation Poll 1941 1982 42 1883-1940 100
Deke Houlgate Math 1927 1958 32 1885-1926 72
International News Service Poll 1952 1957 6 6
Edward Litkenhous Math 1934 1984 51 51
Kenneth Massey Math 1995 2014 20 20
Herman Matthews Math 1966 2006 41 41
National Championship Foundation Poll 1980 2000 21 1869-70, 1872-1979 131
National Football Foundation (NFF) Poll 1959 2013 51 51
New York Times Math 1979 2004 26 26
Richard Poling Math 1935 1984 50 1924-34 61
David Rothman (FACT) Math 1968 2006 42 42
Jeff Sagarin Math 1978 2014 37 1919-77 96
Sporting News Poll 1975 2006 32 32
United Press International (UPI) Poll 1950 1995 44 44
UPI/NFF Poll 1991 1992 2 2
USA Today Poll 2005 2013 9 9
USA Today/Amway Poll 2014 - 1 1
USA Today/CNN Poll 1982 1996 15 15
USA Today/ESPN (USA/ESPN) Poll 1997 2004 8 8
USA Today/National Football Foundation Poll 1993 1994 2 2
Caspar Whitney Math 1905 1907 3 3
Paul Williamson Math 1932 1963 32 32
Peter Wolfe Math 1992 2014 23 23
#Did not compile final ranking after the bowl games so it is not included on the year-by-year listings.

Here's from page 111
2006
Florida: AP, Berryman, Billingsley, Colley, DeVold,
Dunkel, FACT, FW, Massey, Matthews, NFF,
Sagarin, Sagarin (ELO-Chess), Seattle Times,
Sporting News, USA Today, Wolfe
2007
LSU: Berryman, ^BCS, USA Today, AP, Dunkel,
FW, NFF

A FBS playoff with all 10 conference champs would definitively decide it, IMO

(01-26-2021 06:24 PM)bullet Wrote:  Looks like they just got lazy after 2007. This comes from 2015 page 104. In 2007 they listed 32 polls other than AP and Coaches. It was up to 37 in 2015.

SNIP


Here's from page 111
2006
Florida: AP, Berryman, Billingsley, Colley, DeVold,
Dunkel, FACT, FW, Massey, Matthews, NFF,
Sagarin, Sagarin (ELO-Chess), Seattle Times,
Sporting News, USA Today, Wolfe

2007
LSU: Berryman, ^BCS, USA Today, AP, Dunkel,
FW, NFF

I wouldn't call that being lazy, I would call it making a sensible modification. The BCS computers were contributors as part of the BCS. In 2006, Florida won the BCS National Championship, and yet if you look at that list you post, there are a bunch of computers but no mention of the one Big Thing Florida did win ... The BCS Championship!

Since the BCS computers were only important to the extent that they helped pick the teams in the BCS title game, it makes sense to eliminate reference to them separately, and just go with "BCS", the major title won, which subsumes the combined contributions of the BCS computers. Therefore the change with LSU in 2007, which also coincides with about the time the BCS set up a separate "BCS Championship Game" that wasn't in one of the bowls.

Also, look further down that page, to when the CFP begins, and "BCS", and its computers, disappear entirely, as they should, as the BCS is no longer in existence.

And that's how the NCAA book recorded all of the CFP champions, from 2014 - 2016. Here are the entries for the first three CFP Champions, from the 2017 book, which goes up through Clemson beating Alabama for the 2016 title:

*****************************
2014
Ohio St.: College Football Playoff, AP, FW-NFF,
USA Today

2015
Alabama: College Football Playoff, AP, FW-NFF,
USA Today

2016
Clemson: College Football Playoff, AP, FW-NFF,
USA Today
**************************************

See? All the BCS computers are gone, we only get the truly major raters - the CFP of course, the AP and Coaches polls, and the long-standing NFF MacArthur Bowl. That's it. No piddly individual computers, because nobody cares about those and there is nothing "major" about them compared to say the AP poll.

Next year, of course, UCF raises a hue-and-cry, cajoling the NCAA in to posting their piddly CM title. Then the NCAA has to go back and do it for everyone else too. But because it was never intended to be this way, they *still* have not done so correctly. I can name several schools that finished #1 in a piddly computer "major selector" over the past 15 years that *still* do not show up as of the 2020 Record Book. Because it's a big farce.

It's all big UCF farce to be able to blare that the NCAA "honors" their ridiculous CM ranking, when in fact the NCAA doesn't endorse or recognize any FBS champions.

Who beat UCF in 2017? If no one beat them then no one can claim to be better than them. They were undefeated and ranked #1, therefore they are the National Champs not only in my book, but also in the NCAA Record Book.

UCF beat Auburn 27-13, the same Auburn who beat the NCAA Co-Champions Alabama 26-14.

I'm not sure how anyone could argue against them at this point. I also think this is further proof that its time for FBS to move to an actual playoff where all 10 conference champions get an invite with 6 at large bids.

How many FBS National Championships does USF have in the NCAA Record Book? Just curious.

(01-26-2021 09:02 PM)herdfan129 Wrote:  Who beat UCF in 2017? If no one beat them then no one can claim to be better than them. They were undefeated and ranked #1, therefore they are the National Champs not only in my book, but also in the NCAA Record Book.

UCF beat Auburn 27-13, the same Auburn who beat the NCAA Co-Champions Alabama 26-14.

I'm not sure how anyone could argue against them at this point. I also think this is further proof that its time for FBS to move to an actual playoff where all 10 conference champions get an invite with 6 at large bids.

(01-26-2021 09:12 PM)herdfan129 Wrote:  How many FBS National Championships does USF have in the NCAA Record Book? Just curious.

Some more expert trolling. Being a fan of USF must be the reason why anyone would think UCF's "national championship" isn't anything other than completely bogus. Good show.

(01-26-2021 09:02 PM)herdfan129 Wrote:  Who beat UCF in 2017? If no one beat them then no one can claim to be better than them.

A team's record is meaningless unless we know their strength of schedule. Take a team like Coastal Carolina. If they played UL-Monroe 12 times, they would be 12-0. If they played Alabama 12 times, they would be 0-12. Exact same team, totally different records based on who they played.

So UCF's unbeaten record in 2017 is by itself irrelevant as an indicator of whether they deserved to be national champions.

You say UCF beat Auburn? Who cares - Auburn had already lost to Clemson, Georgia and LSU, and nobody was declaring any of them champions.

Alabama was the CFP champion, the official champion of the FBS schools and conferences. They were also voted #1 overwhelmingly by the AP and the Coaches, finished first in the combination of BCS computers, and about 14 other ranking systems. Only the Colley computer picked UCF #1. That's not a "co-national championship". That's hilarious.

NCAA FBS National Championships (According to the official NCAA Record Book)

UCF- 1 (2017)
USF- 0

(01-27-2021 09:58 PM)herdfan129 Wrote:  NCAA FBS National Championships (According to the official NCAA Record Book)

Careful now - the NCAA has never endorsed or recognized an FBS champion, and for good reason - FBS is the division that was specifically set up for those schools and conferences that did NOT want to participate in an NCAA endorsed championship.

That makes the NCAA the *last* organization whose opinion about who the FBS champions were should count for anything, as they have always been excluded from the process of picking a champion.

But keep trying.