If basketball was the key, Louisville would be in one of the top 2 conferences, not the retro metro.
Gonzaga would be in the PAC

(01-25-2021 11:35 PM)BatonRougeEscapee Wrote:  If basketball was the key, Louisville would be in one of the top 2 conferences, not the retro metro.
Gonzaga would be in the PAC

Even if basketball is key, conference alignment is more than just about success in that one sport. The fit of the program is crucial...cultural similarities and historical rivalries are leveraged to create brands. The institutional profiles are also used to drive synergies and ongoing support for competition. The finances are better when top programs can succeed in the same year by competing within different conferences.

Louisville is a phenomenal basketball school. If we’re ranking all-time greatest basketball programs, they are likely in everyone’s top 10. But having Kentucky, UNC, Kansas, UCLA, Indiana, Louisville and Syracuse in just two conferences is not that interesting. Louisville’s rivals in the proposed Metro conference have excellent basketball pedigrees...the proposed Metro is neither the strongest nor weakest of 7 power conferences.

(01-25-2021 11:35 PM)BatonRougeEscapee Wrote:  If basketball was the key, Louisville would be in one of the top 2 conferences, not the retro metro.
Gonzaga would be in the PAC

They might be independent.

(01-25-2021 11:35 PM)BatonRougeEscapee Wrote:  If basketball was the key, Louisville would be in one of the top 2 conferences, not the retro metro.
Gonzaga would be in the PAC

BTW - When judged by the total number of NCAA appearances, Louisville is in the second strongest basketball conference:

1) BIG @ 335 (KS, IN, MSU, OSU, PUR, IL, MI, MO, IA, WI, MN, NW)
2) Metro @ 330 (LVille, ND, Temp, Marq, Cincy, WV, X, Mem, DeP, StJo, VCU, StL)
3) Big East @ 272 (Cuse, Nova, CT, GTown, StJn, Pitt, Prov, BC, SH, Mass, PSU, Rutg)
4) ACC @ 269 (UNC, DU, MD, NCS, UVA, WFU, FSU, GT, CU, VT, MIA, USC)
5) PAC @ 254 (UCLA, AZ, UT, CAL, USC, OSU, WA, Stan, ASU, OR, NM, WSU)
6) SEC @ 249 (KY, AR, FL, TN, LSU, AL, Vandy, TAMU, UGA, MSU, Aub, MS)
7) B12 @ 236 (TX, OK, KSU, OSU, Hou, ISU, TTU, CO, SMU, Bay, TCU, NE)

If we switch back Kansas (from BIG to B12) for Nebraska (from B12 to BIG), then Louisville’s Metro is the clear leader in quality basketball programs. Specifically: 1) Metro @ 330, 2) BIG @ 294, 3) B12 @ 277, 4) Big East @ 272, 5) ACC @ 269, 6) PAC @ 254 and 7) SEC @ 249. These are better balanced in terms of basketball success. West Virginia may be the only state flagship, but all the Metro schools compete well in basketball.

With respect to Gonzaga, an eighth power conference could be formed in the broader Mountain & Plains regions. Specifically,
Gonzaga
Creighton
New Mexico State
UTEP
Tulsa
Western Kentucky
Wichita State
Wyoming
BYU
Utah State
Weber State
UNLV
This M&P conference would not get much TV media revenue because schools are generally outside of big markets. These 12 teams have 240 NCAA tournament appearances; UTEP and UNLV have won the Big Dance; and Gonzaga will be a #1 seed again this year. The risk is that some of these teams may look stronger just because their current competition is not great. Unfortunately, Gonzaga would lose its recruiting pipeline due to no longer playing in the WCC... playing 7 schools from California helps Gonzaga attract students and athletes to Spokane.

(01-26-2021 08:07 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(01-25-2021 11:35 PM)BatonRougeEscapee Wrote:  If basketball was the key, Louisville would be in one of the top 2 conferences, not the retro metro.
Gonzaga would be in the PAC

They might be independent.

If the criteria for automatic bids to the NCAA Tournament is winning a conference, I don't see why Gonzaga would want to be independent. It's not like football which has no requirement. Also, it isn't like Notre Dame football which has a national following.

(01-26-2021 11:48 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(01-26-2021 08:07 AM)esayem Wrote:  

(01-25-2021 11:35 PM)BatonRougeEscapee Wrote:  If basketball was the key, Louisville would be in one of the top 2 conferences, not the retro metro.
Gonzaga would be in the PAC

They might be independent.

If the criteria for automatic bids to the NCAA Tournament is winning a conference, I don't see why Gonzaga would want to be independent. It's not like football which has no requirement. Also, it isn't like Notre Dame football which has a national following.

Gonzaga would most likely be right where they are. I should have eliminated them from the quote because I was specifically talking about Louisville.

Denny Crum would have preferred an independent schedule at certain points, and threatened to pull the Cards out of the Metro multiple times.

Eight 14 team basketball conferences. AAC and MW change the most but they are really best of the rest in a strict 14 team scenario

ACC (14):
Boston College, Clemson, Connecticut, Duke, Georgia Tech, Louisville, Maryland, Miami, North Carolina, NC State, Syracuse, Virginia, Virginia Tech, Wake Forest

Big Ten (14):
Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Michigan, Michigan State, Minnesota, Missouri, Northwestern, Ohio State, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Purdue, Rutgers, Wisconsin

SEC (14):
Alabama, Arkansas, Auburn, Florida, Florida State, Georgia, Kentucky, LSU, Mississippi, Mississippi State, South Carolina, Tennessee, Vanderbilt, West Virginia

Big 12 (14):
Baylor, Colorado, Houston, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, SMU, Texas, Texas A&M, TCU, Texas Tech

Big East (14):
Butler, Dayton, DePaul, Georgetown, Marquette, UMass, Notre Dame, Providence, Rhode Island, St. John's, Saint Louis, Seton Hall, Xavier, Villanova

PAC - 12 (14)
Arizona, Arizona State, California, Gonzaga, New Mexico, Oregon, Oregon State, SDSU, Stanford, Utah, Washington State, Washington, UCLA, USC

AAC (14)
Cincinnati, Creighton, ECU, Marshall, Memphis, South Florida, Temple, Tulane, Tulsa, UAB, UCF, VCU, Western KY, Wichita State + NAVY football

MW (14):
Boise State, BYU, Colorado State, Fresno State, Nevada, NMSU, Pepperdine, Rice, San José St, Santa Clara, UNLV, Utah State, UTEP, Wyoming

(01-26-2021 01:45 PM)BatonRougeEscapee Wrote:  Eight 14 team basketball conferences. AAC and MW change the most but they are really best of the rest in a strict 14 team scenario

ACC (14):
Boston College, Clemson, Connecticut, Duke, Georgia Tech, Louisville, Maryland, Miami, North Carolina, NC State, Syracuse, Virginia, Virginia Tech, Wake Forest

Big Ten (14):
Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Michigan, Michigan State, Minnesota, Missouri, Northwestern, Ohio State, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Purdue, Rutgers, Wisconsin

SEC (14):
Alabama, Arkansas, Auburn, Florida, Florida State, Georgia, Kentucky, LSU, Mississippi, Mississippi State, South Carolina, Tennessee, Vanderbilt, West Virginia

Big 12 (14):
Baylor, Colorado, Houston, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, SMU, Texas, Texas A&M, TCU, Texas Tech

Big East (14):
Butler, Dayton, DePaul, Georgetown, Marquette, UMass, Notre Dame, Providence, Rhode Island, St. John's, Saint Louis, Seton Hall, Xavier, Villanova

PAC - 12 (14)
Arizona, Arizona State, California, Gonzaga, New Mexico, Oregon, Oregon State, SDSU, Stanford, Utah, Washington State, Washington, UCLA, USC

AAC (14)
Cincinnati, Creighton, ECU, Marshall, Memphis, South Florida, Temple, Tulane, Tulsa, UAB, UCF, VCU, Western KY, Wichita State + NAVY football

MW (14):
Boise State, BYU, Colorado State, Fresno State, Nevada, NMSU, Pepperdine, Rice, San José St, Santa Clara, UNLV, Utah State, UTEP, Wyoming

My two cents about the ACC alignment above:

If basketball is the driver of revenue, it’s impossible to separate Syracuse, Connecticut and BC from the schools that make your Big East. These schools were founding members, creators of the concept that a basketball conference in the northeast corridor would be dominant. Boeheim famously ridiculed the thought of ever changing Syracuse’s allegiances...preferring the glitz of NYC’s Madison Square Garden over Tobacco Road; and BC is a football school (in a pro sports market). Connecticut could fit culturally with the core ACC basketball schools, but they are isolated and would need a bridge to the mid-Atlantic (such as Villanova or Pitt).

Without FSU, Miami would have been an uncomfortable fit for the ACC. It’s now too far away; a big city football school in a pro sports market without historical rivals. If FSU and UF are both in the SEC, Miami’s best option is to seek admittance with their long-time rivals into the SEC.

In 2003, the ACC barely approved to expand the conference with Miami and BC because football drove the financial bus. If basketball was the financial driver, expansion would have been more contentious. The academic wing of the ACC would be going for Penn State or Rutgers (Villanova or Georgetown); the athletic wing for Louisville or West Virginia (maybe Kentucky, Tennessee or Vanderbilt); and the traditionalists would prefer Virginia Tech or South Carolina.

If the name of the game is basketball and the ACC is starting at 8 and markets matter, the first addition is Notre Dame because they had been regularly playing NC State and had inside connections with UVa, Duke, UNC, and WF. What that 9 decide to do is likely to add Penn State and Pitt. That gets them to 11. You are not going to pull Syracuse out of the Big East in that circumstance. You don't need more members to stage a tournament or create a hyper sized league. Since basketball is what matters that means that ACC tournament tickers are what matters and 11 is plenty of schools.

I think the ACC stops and lets Miami, SC, FSU, VT, West Va, and Louisville stay in or form the Metro with Memphis, Tulane, and a few others.

(01-27-2021 05:33 PM)Statefan Wrote:  If the name of the game is basketball and the ACC is starting at 8 and markets matter, the first addition is Notre Dame because they had been regularly playing NC State and had inside connections with UVa, Duke, UNC, and WF. What that 9 decide to do is likely to add Penn State and Pitt. That gets them to 11. You are not going to pull Syracuse out of the Big East in that circumstance. You don't need more members to stage a tournament or create a hyper sized league. Since basketball is what matters that means that ACC tournament tickers are what matters and 11 is plenty of schools.

I think the ACC stops and lets Miami, SC, FSU, VT, West Va, and Louisville stay in or form the Metro with Memphis, Tulane, and a few others.

Why did ND join the Big East before the ACC in reality then?

(01-27-2021 05:47 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(01-27-2021 05:33 PM)Statefan Wrote:  If the name of the game is basketball and the ACC is starting at 8 and markets matter, the first addition is Notre Dame because they had been regularly playing NC State and had inside connections with UVa, Duke, UNC, and WF. What that 9 decide to do is likely to add Penn State and Pitt. That gets them to 11. You are not going to pull Syracuse out of the Big East in that circumstance. You don't need more members to stage a tournament or create a hyper sized league. Since basketball is what matters that means that ACC tournament tickers are what matters and 11 is plenty of schools.

I think the ACC stops and lets Miami, SC, FSU, VT, West Va, and Louisville stay in or form the Metro with Memphis, Tulane, and a few others.

Why did ND join the Big East before the ACC in reality then?

Very simple. The Big East offered membership without football in 1995.

The ACC at that time did not.

If the SEC had been the only conference to allow ND to join but keep football independent in 1995, ND would now be in the SEC.

(01-28-2021 09:11 AM)TerryD Wrote:  

(01-27-2021 05:47 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(01-27-2021 05:33 PM)Statefan Wrote:  If the name of the game is basketball and the ACC is starting at 8 and markets matter, the first addition is Notre Dame because they had been regularly playing NC State and had inside connections with UVa, Duke, UNC, and WF. What that 9 decide to do is likely to add Penn State and Pitt. That gets them to 11. You are not going to pull Syracuse out of the Big East in that circumstance. You don't need more members to stage a tournament or create a hyper sized league. Since basketball is what matters that means that ACC tournament tickers are what matters and 11 is plenty of schools.

I think the ACC stops and lets Miami, SC, FSU, VT, West Va, and Louisville stay in or form the Metro with Memphis, Tulane, and a few others.

Why did ND join the Big East before the ACC in reality then?

Very simple. The Big East offered membership without football in 1995.

The ACC at that time did not.

If the SEC had been the only conference to allow ND to join but keep football independent in 1995, ND would now be in the SEC.

Ah, I see. I just thought the geography of the Big East (Northeast + Florida) and the fact that several of the schools were also Catholic made it more palatable for ND.

(01-23-2021 04:23 PM)ken d Wrote:  Here's a quiz for everyone:

Name all the current D-I conferences in which every member was classified as D-I by the 1964-65 season.

Big 10, Big 12, SEC, Pac 12, Ivy League

(01-23-2021 02:36 PM)schmolik Wrote:  

(01-23-2021 12:17 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  My gawd you got Iowa in 2nd tier and Northwestern is 1st tier!?!?!?!?

Do you not follow college basketball at all?

Geography still has to be the first criteria. Eastern teams in the Big 10 and ACC, Western crap in the Big 12. Besides this was written in 2017 before Luka Garza got there and once he leaves Iowa will go back to being a mediocre team. They last made the Sweet 16 in 1999.

You must know nothing about college sports Schmuck. Since I’ve been alive Iowa has 1 losing season and 25 NCAA appearances. A dozen second rounds, 6 sweet sixteen’s a couple elight 8’s and a final four. I’m 46. Northwestern has made 1 NCAA tournament ever….And doesn’t draw a crowd. Iowa Fills up a big carver Hawkeye arena nearly every game. Know your shite before posting nonsense.

(01-23-2021 04:23 PM)ken d Wrote:  Here's a quiz for everyone:

Name all the current D-I conferences in which every member was classified as D-I by the 1964-65 season.

Ivy
Pac-12
Big 12
SEC

This tweet was from the other day, but even Fran Fraschilla recognizes on what side the bread is buttered. You basketball guys aren’t ever going to put the toothpaste back in the tube- sorry.


https://twitter.com/franfraschilla/statu...EiCtxSJ1qg

(08-16-2022 09:57 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  This tweet was from the other day, but even Fran Fraschilla recognizes on what side the bread is buttered. You basketball guys aren’t ever going to put the toothpaste back in the tube- sorry.


https://twitter.com/franfraschilla/statu...EiCtxSJ1qg

Fraschilla's quote is notable.

As a fan of Belmont, DePaul and Memphis, I sure hope the day does not come when the men's hoops programs of those three are essentially "banned" from being grouped with the big boys. But I could see it.

Memphis hoops, for example, could remain competitive and respected — but be relegated to "irrelevance status." I could even see that for a top-notch hoops program such as Villanova.

Being part of the future "big boy all-sports confederation" could be critical for maintaining relevance.

(01-23-2021 06:02 PM)Gemofthehills Wrote:  

(01-23-2021 03:09 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  There’s schools on that list that really haven’t done anything in CBB including one of the schools I root for.

Northwestern, all the Florida schools except the Gators, most Texas schools, East Carolina, Nebraska, Mississippi, Rutgers, Auburn, Alabama, Penn State.

I’d add Marquette, UAB, Old Dominion, Charlotte, St Louis, Dayton, Western Kentucky, Gonzaga, BYU, UNLV, Utah State, New Mexico, New Mexico State and even UTEP (the Miners haven’t done much since the mid 2000s but if East Carolina is included why not UTEP) to the list.

PSU has the money to compete and they were ranked for the most part in the 2019-20 season but football is the king in Happy Valley and men’s hockey is second. Hopefully men’s basketball can become #2 in the future.

If your adding these you need to add Murray St, Belmont, Liberty, Davidson and Richmond

And if the goal is a southern basketball conference, you add the College of Charleston and FGCU (the latter's men's BB is solid while their women's team would be a P5 if that were the measuring stick.)

Go back to the basketball alignment of the late 80s, and we’re golden.

(01-23-2021 12:17 PM)billybobby777 Wrote:  My gawd you got Iowa in 2nd tier and Northwestern is 1st tier!?!?!?!?

Do you not follow college basketball at all?

And he has Kansas, the current national champion and winningest program in history, as a second tier.