(01-19-2021 01:34 PM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  

(01-19-2021 02:24 AM)Todor Wrote:  It wasn't that long ago Chicago State was around 10,000 students. I think they'll settle back into a number nearer that in the future as well.

Some of the talk about them is overly dramatic. For example, small freshman classes. Those numbers may be true, but a school that is almost entirely composed of community college transfers, they are not entirely indicative of the complete picture.

Same for graduation rates. They are looking at who started there as a first time freshman and graduated within 6 years. Not a complete picture for a commuter school with lots of part time students who may take longer, anyone who transferred there from several large community colleges nearby, or for any graduate students, like in the Pharmacy School.

Come on now. Getting 10 times more students than they currently are, seems really far fetched. Chicago State would have to pretty much overhaul their entire recruiting process to even get towards 2,000. Without athletics, they would virtually have tens of incoming freshmen. Commuter school or not, that is not good.

I think if you account for all the info included here it's more like 5 times, not 10 times. Undergraduate enrollment in 2018 and 2019 was a bit over 2000, which makes sense given the numbers of JC transfers coming in. So freshman enrollment is not at all indicative of overall enrollment.

Still, growing back to 10k is a big step. It would take a drastic change to do that quickly, such as reorienting from being a commuter campus and making themselves more attractive to traditional students. And that requires a functional athletics program.

9,xxx was including grad students. Fall of 2019 the were a squeak under 3k. Considering the overall shrink in llinois public University enrollment, it isn't as dramatic.

The main campus of Southern Illinois University is now 11,600, down from a peak of about 25,000 in the 1990's. Just saying.

https://www.carbondaletimes.com/news/201...20history.

Massachusetts-Boston.

(01-19-2021 01:42 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  

(01-19-2021 01:34 PM)DoubleRSU Wrote:  

(01-19-2021 02:24 AM)Todor Wrote:  It wasn't that long ago Chicago State was around 10,000 students. I think they'll settle back into a number nearer that in the future as well.

Some of the talk about them is overly dramatic. For example, small freshman classes. Those numbers may be true, but a school that is almost entirely composed of community college transfers, they are not entirely indicative of the complete picture.

Same for graduation rates. They are looking at who started there as a first time freshman and graduated within 6 years. Not a complete picture for a commuter school with lots of part time students who may take longer, anyone who transferred there from several large community colleges nearby, or for any graduate students, like in the Pharmacy School.

Come on now. Getting 10 times more students than they currently are, seems really far fetched. Chicago State would have to pretty much overhaul their entire recruiting process to even get towards 2,000. Without athletics, they would virtually have tens of incoming freshmen. Commuter school or not, that is not good.

I think if you account for all the info included here it's more like 5 times, not 10 times. Undergraduate enrollment in 2018 and 2019 was a bit over 2000, which makes sense given the numbers of JC transfers coming in. So freshman enrollment is not at all indicative of overall enrollment.

Still, growing back to 10k is a big step. It would take a drastic change to do that quickly, such as reorienting from being a commuter campus and making themselves more attractive to traditional students. And that requires a functional athletics program.

Also it was (I believe) 9,600 something or other, which is closer to 3 times. And I did say say nearer, not near. And i didn't say in the immediate future.,might be 10 years. I don't know. But over 6k is nearer their peak than their current. That's all I'm saying.

(01-19-2021 01:42 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  Still, growing back to 10k is a big step. It would take a drastic change to do that quickly, such as reorienting from being a commuter campus and making themselves more attractive to traditional students. And that requires a functional athletics program.

Does it?

Even if you only count non-profit colleges and universities that grant bachelor's degrees, and even if you exclude "specialty schools" (e.g., music conservatories or religious seminaries), there are well over 1,000 US colleges and universities that don't have Division I athletics, compared to about 350 that do.

(01-19-2021 02:10 PM)Todor Wrote:  9,xxx was including grad students. Fall of 2019 the were a squeak under 3k. Considering the overall shrink in llinois public University enrollment, it isn't as dramatic.

The main campus of Southern Illinois University is now 11,600, down from a peak of about 25,000 in the 1990's. Just saying.

https://www.carbondaletimes.com/news/201...20history.

No they weren't, that is the 2017 Fall figure. And the count Chicago State gave for that enrollment included 1000 in the graduate Pharmacy program and other grad students, which is irrelevant, and also includes a very large number part time students (basket weaving by housewives in extension campuses). The FTE at Chicago State is 1,278 undergrads in 2019-20. That is pre COVID-19.

Chicago State will take a very long time to recover if ever. There are many problems far beyond the number of students signing up. They do finally have competent leadership, and have purged almost all from the Kleptocracy of the Watson era. But fixing the systemic and administrative problems is not quick nor overnight, will take several more years. All you can hope for in the next five years is to stay above 1000 FTE undergrads to keep PBI status for student loans and other support. If they fall below that another huge hole will be blown in the budget.

The argument that it is just State money shortage is not near the truth. The foundation is empty, donations are bake sale levels, and the income is entirely driven by student enrollment where >98% are on financial aid, paying little out of pocket. Essentially all the money comes from grants and loans of the Feds and State, which means they are limited to the per student fees of the State of Illinois. More State money can only come from more students, putting Chicago State in competition with all the other 3rd tier Illinois State and directional schools (1st tier being UIUC, 2nd tier UIC and Illinois State) for the money which will be allocated. There is no windfall to be had, just incremental improvement over before.

I do wish the school well as south Chicago transforms (demographics are changing, population is declining), but I don't expect any massive turn around. Stability at 1,200-1,500 for the next 5 years would be good. They have to keep at that number while transforming the quality of the product, get the 6 year graduation rate up above 30% (it was 11% recently) and change the culture to have graduates donate (start with current students, you have already lost those who left). This is not a flip the switch change but one that takes a decade or more. You have to improve the quality coming out of Chicago State before you can get more students to want to come there. There are too many other alternatives from Roosevelt to Governors State to NIU to Illinois State plus various out of state options that offer "in state" tuition to Illinois residents.

Chicago State leadership lied repeatedly for years about this being temporary. The WAC played along saying nothing. But when the contract was up and the WAC had safety in numbers, they let them go. Chicago State has to fix their problems before anyone takes them

(01-19-2021 02:33 PM)Wedge Wrote:  

(01-19-2021 01:42 PM)teamvsn Wrote:  Still, growing back to 10k is a big step. It would take a drastic change to do that quickly, such as reorienting from being a commuter campus and making themselves more attractive to traditional students. And that requires a functional athletics program.

Does it?

Even if you only count non-profit colleges and universities that grant bachelor's degrees, and even if you exclude "specialty schools" (e.g., music conservatories or religious seminaries), there are well over 1,000 US colleges and universities that don't have Division I athletics, compared to about 350 that do.

Who said anything about D1? This whole thread is about what CSU might do following their exit from the WAC. Including options for D2 and the NAIA.

(01-19-2021 02:51 PM)Stugray2 Wrote:  

(01-19-2021 02:10 PM)Todor Wrote:  9,xxx was including grad students. Fall of 2019 the were a squeak under 3k. Considering the overall shrink in llinois public University enrollment, it isn't as dramatic.

The main campus of Southern Illinois University is now 11,600, down from a peak of about 25,000 in the 1990's. Just saying.

https://www.carbondaletimes.com/news/201...20history.

No they weren't, that is the 2017 Fall figure. And the count Chicago State gave for that enrollment included over 1,000 in the graduate Pharmacy program, which is irrelevant, and includes a very large number part time students (basket weaving by housewives in extension campuses). The FTE at Chicago State is 1,278 undergrads in 2019-20. That is pre COVID-19.

Chicago State will take a very long time to recover if ever. There are many problems far beyond the number of students signing up. They do finally have competent leadership, and have purged almost all from the Kleptocracy of the Watson era. But fixing the systemic and administrative problems is not quick nor overnight, will take several more years. All you can hope for in the next five years is to stay above 1000 FTE undergrads to keep PBI status for student loans and other support. If they fall below that another huge hole will be blown in the budget.

The argument that it is just State money shortage is not near the truth. The foundation is empty, donations are bake sale levels, and the income is entirely driven by student enrollment where >98% are on financial aid, paying little out of pocket. Essentially all the money comes from grants and loans of the Feds and State, which means they are limited to the per student fees of the State of Illinois. More State money can only come from more students, putting Chicago State in competition with all the other 3rd tier Illinois State and directional schools (1st tier being UIUC, 2nd tier UIC and Illinois State) for the money which will be allocated. There is no windfall to be had, just incremental improvement over before.

I do wish the school well as south Chicago transforms (demographics are changing, population is declining), but I don't expect any massive turn around. Stability at 1,200-1,500 for the next 5 years would be good. They have to keep at that number while transforming the quality of the product, get the 6 year graduation rate up above 30% (it was 11% recently) and change the culture to have graduates donate (start with current students, you have already lost those who left). This is not a flip the switch change but one that takes a decade or more. You have to improve the quality coming out of Chicago State before you can get more students to want to come there. There are too many other alternatives from Roosevelt to Governors State to NIU to Illinois State plus various out of state options that offer "in state" tuition to Illinois residents.

Chicago State leadership lied repeatedly for years about this being temporary. The WAC played along saying nothing. But when the contract was up and the WAC had safety in numbers, they let them go. Chicago State has to fix their problems before anyone takes them

No pharmacy program in the country has 1,000 students lol.
They don't even have 1,000 grad students total.

And regarding which years figures I was using--the correct ones.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-c...story.html

I see what you're trying to do, listing the FTE instead of the enrollment. Nearly everyone's is lower than their enrollment, yet everyone lists the total number of students they have.

I corrected to include say pharmacy and other grad programs for the 1000.


The Pharmacy program had 600 at peak. They instituted quality controls after a recent scandal, limit size now to 90 per class. About 400 in all. It is separate from the undergrad program. Demographics are very different than the other students, with a very high Asian-American percentage.

Chicago State's own fact sheet lists 1737 FTE undergrads for 2018. The decline to 1278 FTE they reported to the DoE in 2019 is relatively small. Note, there is a discrepancy between the fact sheet and the official number report to the Feds (required for eligibility for student loan and grant programs), so the decline is likely less. I do not know why the numbers they tell the Feds is lower than the number they publish for their own board. The Fed numbers are more reliable because each school has to meet the same standard.

Even so here are the numbers Chicago State publishes. For athletics only the undergrad number matters as graduate students do not pay athletic fees at most schools.


2018 FTE = 1737 (from same Chicago State fact sheet)

Pharmacy had 378 FTE (371 were full-time, part-time only counted for 7 FTE)

We are splitting hairs. The fundamentals are the same. Chicago State is severely limited in growth potential.

I know in some cases colleges merge together. Is there any college community, junior, NAIA or whatever that could merge with Chicago State? Would such a move be a good fix or a temporary band aid? My thought was by merging a community/junior college into Chicago State the old community college land could be sold by the city. Also by eliminating a school everyone else would get a boost in money and the state could potentially save money.

(01-19-2021 04:05 PM)46566 Wrote:  I know in some cases colleges merge together. Is there any college community, junior, NAIA or whatever that could merge with Chicago State? Would such a move be a good fix or a temporary band aid? My thought was by merging a community/junior college into Chicago State the old community college land could be sold by the city. Also by eliminating a school everyone else would get a boost in money and the state could potentially save money.

Not sure if there is anything nearby Chicago State but Illinois could definitely consolidate some of their public universities.

(01-19-2021 04:05 PM)46566 Wrote:  I know in some cases colleges merge together. Is there any college community, junior, NAIA or whatever that could merge with Chicago State? Would such a move be a good fix or a temporary band aid? My thought was by merging a community/junior college into Chicago State the old community college land could be sold by the city. Also by eliminating a school everyone else would get a boost in money and the state could potentially save money.

There are numerous community colleges nearby, but they are part of the City College system of Chicago and are not run by the state. So being in different "jurisdictions" if you will makes it very complicated and unlikely. There are suburban community colleges nearby, but like any type of merger, nobody wants to give up anything.

The most likely merger is with a school named Governors State which is about 30 miles south in a very suburban area. But unless it's forced by the state, I don't see it happening either. Governors State is a fairly new institution which until recently was upper division only (no freshmen or sophomores) like a number of other Illinois universities. However, they have recently begun accepting lower division students, built dorms and begun athletics. They are really coming into their own and forming their own identity which just makes it more complicated. 10 years ago it would have been more likely.

But its Illinois, and I doubt politics would make any merger feasible.

(01-19-2021 04:08 PM)nbcards Wrote:  

(01-19-2021 04:05 PM)46566 Wrote:  I know in some cases colleges merge together. Is there any college community, junior, NAIA or whatever that could merge with Chicago State? Would such a move be a good fix or a temporary band aid? My thought was by merging a community/junior college into Chicago State the old community college land could be sold by the city. Also by eliminating a school everyone else would get a boost in money and the state could potentially save money.

Not sure if there is anything nearby Chicago State but Illinois could definitely consolidate some of their public universities.

About the only way I DO see CSU merging, is part of a big, statewide realignment of universities. That could actually happen because few if any (outside U of I) are anywhere near what they once were.

(01-19-2021 04:51 PM)Todor Wrote:  

(01-19-2021 04:08 PM)nbcards Wrote:  

(01-19-2021 04:05 PM)46566 Wrote:  I know in some cases colleges merge together. Is there any college community, junior, NAIA or whatever that could merge with Chicago State? Would such a move be a good fix or a temporary band aid? My thought was by merging a community/junior college into Chicago State the old community college land could be sold by the city. Also by eliminating a school everyone else would get a boost in money and the state could potentially save money.

Not sure if there is anything nearby Chicago State but Illinois could definitely consolidate some of their public universities.

About the only way I DO see CSU merging, is part of a big, statewide realignment of universities. That could actually happen because few if any (outside U of I) are anywhere near what they once were.

In Division I we have Southern Illinois and Southern Illinois - Edwardsville. What about becoming a satellite of another state school? We could have Northern Illinois and Northern Illinois - Chicago. That has a nice ring to it.

(01-18-2021 05:36 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(01-18-2021 03:51 PM)AZcats Wrote:  

(01-18-2021 02:47 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  With D2 GLVC be around is the question. Several of their smaller schools may wind up closing down, some could drop down to NAIA, the Missouri schools could join the MIAA to replace schools and that three schools are looking to leave which 2 of them eyeing D1.

Where are the LINKS to support this fantasy?

As a respected realignment news correspondent, David is not at liberty to reveal his sources.

The way that OVC, MEAC and Southland are falling apart? You might see schools from D2 get the called up to replace the ones that left.

Indianapolis to OVC would bring an all sports team to with football.
Lindenwood in the Saint Louis market can be called up to replace if SE Missouri State goes to the ASUN.
Southern Indiana and Wayne State to the Horizon along with Bellarmine and Belmont.
OVC could also get Robert Morris and Western Illinois with Wayne State as football only and with Grand Valley State which West Texas's AD name dropped saying they were not happy with D2 leadership as well.
UMSL could be a good target for the Horizon.
Missouri S&T could go back to MIAA or they could go to the Southland.
Maryville is a large Catholic school that could be somewhere as well.
Lewis U. could also move up.
The 4 largest privates have an endowment more than $50 million with Lindenwood of having more than $143 million endowment and Indianapolis of having more than $109 million.

You have to look at the GLVC is uncertain right now if they get picked apart.

(01-19-2021 05:03 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(01-18-2021 05:36 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(01-18-2021 03:51 PM)AZcats Wrote:  

(01-18-2021 02:47 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  With D2 GLVC be around is the question. Several of their smaller schools may wind up closing down, some could drop down to NAIA, the Missouri schools could join the MIAA to replace schools and that three schools are looking to leave which 2 of them eyeing D1.

Where are the LINKS to support this fantasy?

As a respected realignment news correspondent, David is not at liberty to reveal his sources.

The way that OVC, MEAC and Southland are falling apart? You might see schools from D2 get the called up to replace the ones that left.

Indianapolis to OVC would bring an all sports team to with football.
Lindenwood in the Saint Louis market can be called up to replace if SE Missouri State goes to the ASUN.
Southern Indiana and Wayne State to the Horizon along with Bellarmine and Belmont.
OVC could also get Robert Morris and Western Illinois with Wayne State as football only and with Grand Valley State which West Texas's AD name dropped saying they were not happy with D2 leadership as well.
UMSL could be a good target for the Horizon.
Missouri S&T could go back to MIAA or they could go to the Southland.
Maryville is a large Catholic school that could be somewhere as well.
Lewis U. could also move up.
The 4 largest privates have an endowment more than $50 million with Lindenwood of having more than $143 million endowment and Indianapolis of having more than $109 million.

You have to look at the GLVC is uncertain right now if they get picked apart.

U Indy is not even considering D1. Their President is on record suggesting Bellarmine is making a mistake. They recognize their place and prefer success at D2.

(01-19-2021 05:03 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(01-18-2021 05:36 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(01-18-2021 03:51 PM)AZcats Wrote:  

(01-18-2021 02:47 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  With D2 GLVC be around is the question. Several of their smaller schools may wind up closing down, some could drop down to NAIA, the Missouri schools could join the MIAA to replace schools and that three schools are looking to leave which 2 of them eyeing D1.

Where are the LINKS to support this fantasy?

As a respected realignment news correspondent, David is not at liberty to reveal his sources.

The way that OVC, MEAC and Southland are falling apart? You might see schools from D2 get the called up to replace the ones that left.

Indianapolis to OVC would bring an all sports team to with football.
Lindenwood in the Saint Louis market can be called up to replace if SE Missouri State goes to the ASUN.
Southern Indiana and Wayne State to the Horizon along with Bellarmine and Belmont.
OVC could also get Robert Morris and Western Illinois with Wayne State as football only and with Grand Valley State which West Texas's AD name dropped saying they were not happy with D2 leadership as well.
UMSL could be a good target for the Horizon.
Missouri S&T could go back to MIAA or they could go to the Southland.
Maryville is a large Catholic school that could be somewhere as well.
Lewis U. could also move up.
The 4 largest privates have an endowment more than $50 million with Lindenwood of having more than $143 million endowment and Indianapolis of having more than $109 million.

You have to look at the GLVC is uncertain right now if they get picked apart.

A whole lot of "could"s that just ain't gonna happen. Keep this on your fantasy realignment home game.

When you request links, if it’s not a 10 year old article, it’s just more junk he makes up. Truly fascinating.

(01-19-2021 07:26 PM)otis campbell Wrote:  

(01-19-2021 05:03 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  

(01-18-2021 05:36 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(01-18-2021 03:51 PM)AZcats Wrote:  

(01-18-2021 02:47 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  With D2 GLVC be around is the question. Several of their smaller schools may wind up closing down, some could drop down to NAIA, the Missouri schools could join the MIAA to replace schools and that three schools are looking to leave which 2 of them eyeing D1.

Where are the LINKS to support this fantasy?

As a respected realignment news correspondent, David is not at liberty to reveal his sources.

The way that OVC, MEAC and Southland are falling apart? You might see schools from D2 get the called up to replace the ones that left.

Indianapolis to OVC would bring an all sports team to with football.
Lindenwood in the Saint Louis market can be called up to replace if SE Missouri State goes to the ASUN.
Southern Indiana and Wayne State to the Horizon along with Bellarmine and Belmont.
OVC could also get Robert Morris and Western Illinois with Wayne State as football only and with Grand Valley State which West Texas's AD name dropped saying they were not happy with D2 leadership as well.
UMSL could be a good target for the Horizon.
Missouri S&T could go back to MIAA or they could go to the Southland.
Maryville is a large Catholic school that could be somewhere as well.
Lewis U. could also move up.
The 4 largest privates have an endowment more than $50 million with Lindenwood of having more than $143 million endowment and Indianapolis of having more than $109 million.

You have to look at the GLVC is uncertain right now if they get picked apart.

U Indy is not even considering D1. Their President is on record suggesting Bellarmine is making a mistake. They recognize their place and prefer success at D2.

Bellarmine is a much smaller school and Indianapolis is larger. Indianapolis is also on record of moving to another conference with the rumor of Southern Indiana going to D1.

I’m sure merger discussions come up within the state, but, as these things go, Chicago State brings such a problematic dowry. You can’t expect the receiving school to bear the weight of it all, and the state just swishes the hand to make it so when maybe the harder reality is to shutter it? I suspect no other public school wants a piece of CSU. If one is forced to take it, it’s probably a school that also isn’t “feelin’ fine.”