(07-17-2020 08:52 AM)fsquid Wrote:  looks like a bunch of corporations and chains hopped on the mask wagon yesterday. Publix, Target, CVS

"I have a health condition."

(07-17-2020 09:12 AM)banker Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 03:47 PM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 02:21 PM)Eagleaidaholic Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 01:54 PM)wmubroncopilot Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 12:02 PM)BobcatEngineer Wrote:  

It's funny, but I shudder to think how many gullible friends he's spewing these numbers at who nod along in agreement. Some of the conversations I hear.. We are so boned.

Swine Flu likely killed 15 times more people than the number tested and confirmed.

From your link:

"Beginning in 2009, the virus swept the globe, and the WHO counted 18,500 swine flu deaths that had been confirmed by laboratory tests. But according to new estimates from researchers at the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the virus probably killed between 105,700 and 400,000 people around the world in its first year alone, and an additional 46,000 to 179,000 people likely died of cardiovascular complications from the virus."

Sorry, your link only confirms what we are saying, that swine flu was far less deadly than COVID.

Funny, thing I took from the article was that they were as bad at undercounting deaths in 2009 as they are in overcounting them in 2020.

What the article is getting at is, the Swine Flu wasn't even front page news then and there were very few tests for it. Nearly 1200 children were CONFIRMED to die from it, but that number could have been much more. There was no law passed to treat it and therefore no incentive to diagnose it for monetary gains. How many folks died of
"pneumonia" or some other ailment but weren't diagnosed with Flu. This is so overblown by our govenment that people are lining up in their cars to get tested for it without any symptoms of anything, because the Government will pay for the test. If the Swine Flu was front page news for 5 months back then with all of the fear and the same incentive for medical care provided, the numbers would have been the same as Covid numbers are now. Except 10 times more people would have tested positive. Plenty of people stayed home thinking they would kick swine flu and once it got too bad would go to the hospital and die with no Flu diagnoses.

(07-16-2020 10:18 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 10:01 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 09:32 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 08:22 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 07:17 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  You realize a virus does not observe state boundary lines, right?

What organization have you ever worked in where the leader lets 50 direct reports all come up with their own policy for a critical mission for the whole organization?

And cut the crap with the nursing homes. Especially since those governors IIRC have admitted the mistake and corrected course. But TBH, this could also be attributed to a failure of leadership from Washington, leaving them to find solutions on their own. The Maryland governor just addressed this today in a scathing op-ed.

There is no objective analysis anywhere that has concluded that this administration has done a good job, but that doesn't stop your unapologetic and unempathetic orange overlord from saying so...continually.

Yet you still cannot produce a cogent plan that should have been implemented or what executive powers would have enabled him to act with such authority. The fact that governors are blaming the president is indicative of their leadership deficiencies.

That's it? A anonymous internet message board poster can't put forth a national policy for a country to address a global pandemic of a novel virus, so clearly one doesn't exist? Do you even listen to yourself? I'm not an infectious disease expert, nor do I have billions of dollars and scores of experts at my disposal. But you're right...there clearly is no way forward for any country on the planet to address this as every other country is still breaking daily case records.

We're months in and this administration STILL has no plan. It's a failure. But keep deflecting this on to anyone but the cult leader. It's so on brand.

A rejoinder by another random internet poster complaining that people died of a virus is a failure of the POTUS is laughable. Point at a country that reacted better would at least be a starting point for dialogue. But instead you clearly hold a zero detect mentality on this situation, which undermines the validity of your complaint.

BTW, the military operates with multiple direct reports with the various Chief of Staffs providing only the commanders intent.

Point at a country, other than maybe Brazil, that's done it worse than us!

Well, Belgium, the U.K., Spain, Italy, Sweden and France all have higher death rates per million, so there's six.

(07-16-2020 02:21 PM)Eagleaidaholic Wrote:  Swine Flu likely killed 15 times more people than the number tested and confirmed.

funny that your link title says 'likely' but the article title says 'may have'. The truth is that many nations, especially in parts of Africa and Asia where 69% of the reported deaths were, do not do a good job of recording population and deaths for a variety of reasons.... nor do they have the medical equipment to confirm causes... some don't even try... I can tell you right now, I don't believe one single number coming out of China (which is by far the largest population in the world) about their contagion and am highly suspect of Russia.

We can't, in a discussion about the current numbers being inflated, simultaneously argue that the previous numbers were discounted... and on a global level. We can agree that they are estimates and we can discuss reasons for over or under counts... but the same would hold for cases as deaths...

(07-16-2020 04:14 PM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  I read it wrong and quoted hospitalizations instead of deaths. Sorry. That was still more honest than our government is being.

And if you really believe the number of covid deaths we're being told, I have this bridge I'd like to sell you.

No worries.... I agree the numbers are suspect... but I believe they are all suspect.

(07-16-2020 06:10 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  [quote='Hambone10' pid='16906910' dateline='1594918328']
[quote='GoodOwl' pid='16906813' dateline='1594915934']

Look, Ham, you're a smart guy, with a helluva leg, and involved in the medical field more than many of us. I get that. But most citiznes do not encounter things as you do in your work, most of us can read stats and population numbers and calculate our own personal rough risk levels. In my state of 8-9 million, only about 3,500 have died from this coronabug. And half of those were in nursing facilities/group care homes, so only 1,750 or so deaths pertain to the majority here. So the risk for the rest of us is far, far less than from regular flu, and those of us citizens who are rational and can do some math understand the risk is next to nothing for the vast majority of us.

We've all had colds and flu enough to know what to do if we get that sick. Besides, and Importantly, the shutdown and original orders were to flatten the curve, NOT to eliminate it completely, just until we could catch our breath and get hospitals and equipment in place to handle anything as we were lied to willingly by China and WHO. I trust those in the medical field to do their jobs when called to, and leave us alone when not. Too Many are overstepping their authorities and areas of expertise right now, and their behavior is undermining their very credibility.

OK, now we caught our breath, most everyone cooperated (except the rioters/looters, who somehow have "immunity" from responsibility, but that's MSM and political games) and now people need to get back to work, get out to support their local economies by eating, shopping and attending sports and entertainment in public together and all our children need to be back in schools on campus.

If the deaths in a state of 8-9 million were 100,000 since March, I'd be more concerned. But they are only about 3,500 in our state--so nothing to worry much about, especially since half of that number were in very isolated populations that do need the extra precautions and most of us do not have any contact/interaction with them when going about our daily lives. So those populations should be the only ones who get the panic treatment, not the children and adults of the working populations of the state. Overall death number for regular folks is only about 1,750 or so...not too scary in a state of 8-9 million....

Maybe New Yorkers should be worried, since their Gov killed thousands of them on purpose and now makes posters making jokes about it...Cuomo's a sick, sick ba$tard... Our governor is a smart, responsible leader, and he only has to deal with a few prog idiot mayors in large cities who are trying to scare people who are not as smart so she can win political points and votes. That's it. By next Spring/Summer this virus will be in the past and we'll see the difference in people and leaders who lost their brains and those who soldiered through.


Edited for typos when I type too fast.

Which is precisely why I don't support mandates, nor do I support federal action. Any action should at best be at the state level.... and likely more like county or even city.... for the very reasons you mention.

Politicians have to balance a number of things... Epidemiologists don't have to be concerned with the economy... This is why someone might see a difference between what Fauci and company say, and what Trump or anyone else says... and that is as it should be...

I just think it's vitally important that people understand that masks aren't to protect the wearer... and lots of these arguments against them present data about protecting the wearer... cloth masks aren't meant for even moderately infected areas... and lots of these arguments against them present data about moderately infected areas...

and unfortunately, many people CAN'T make such rational, well informed decisions as you... they make decisions based on 'what they heard somewhere', which may be 'true', but in the wrong context as I've presented above.

Masks are a courtesy to others that do somewhat limit the spread of disease... we can argue about 'how much' and there is no single answer.... if they cause you actual physical harm, don't wear them... but do something 'else' to limit your potential for spread... If you live in a small town like I do now, I go shopping about half as often or less than I did before... I order takeout about 10 times more often than I did before... I buy a few more things online.... that, in and of itself is better than 'business as usual' and because I'm still buying as much, just larger orders... I'm not hurting the economy much... though perhaps my waiter is now my delivery guy...

The guys who irritate me are the ones who think they're 'protecting us from tyranny' by not wearing a mask.... when what they're really doing IMO is encouraging it.

There is nothing that will "limit the spread of the disease" before November. There is a massive, gross over representation of all the numbers going on and we ALL know why.

(07-17-2020 09:12 AM)banker Wrote:  Funny, thing I took from the article was that they were as bad at undercounting deaths in 2009 as they are in overcounting them in 2020.

Two completely different 'they'.

Here are the numbers for the US

Swine 60mm 280k 12k
Covid 3.5mm 280k 40k


It's the 'case count' that is the biggest outlier. For them to be comparable, covid should have something like 14,000 hospitalizations and 600 deaths. The number is likely much less than 40k, but it's WAY more than 600.

I understand why we might over-count hospitalizations and deaths somewhat... but why would we so grossly under-count cases?

(07-17-2020 09:35 AM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(07-16-2020 02:21 PM)Eagleaidaholic Wrote:  Swine Flu likely killed 15 times more people than the number tested and confirmed.

funny that your link title says 'likely' but the article title says 'may have'. The truth is that many nations, especially in parts of Africa and Asia where 69% of the reported deaths were, do not do a good job of recording population and deaths for a variety of reasons.... nor do they have the medical equipment to confirm causes... some don't even try... I can tell you right now, I don't believe one single number coming out of China (which is by far the largest population in the world) about their contagion and am highly suspect of Russia.

We can't, in a discussion about the current numbers being inflated, simultaneously argue that the previous numbers were discounted... and on a global level. We can agree that they are estimates and we can discuss reasons for over or under counts... but the same would hold for cases as deaths...

(07-16-2020 04:14 PM)BartlettTigerFan Wrote:  I read it wrong and quoted hospitalizations instead of deaths. Sorry. That was still more honest than our government is being.

And if you really believe the number of covid deaths we're being told, I have this bridge I'd like to sell you.

No worries.... I agree the numbers are suspect... but I believe they are all suspect.

(07-16-2020 06:10 PM)GoodOwl Wrote:  [quote='Hambone10' pid='16906910' dateline='1594918328']
[quote='GoodOwl' pid='16906813' dateline='1594915934']

Look, Ham, you're a smart guy, with a helluva leg, and involved in the medical field more than many of us. I get that. But most citiznes do not encounter things as you do in your work, most of us can read stats and population numbers and calculate our own personal rough risk levels. In my state of 8-9 million, only about 3,500 have died from this coronabug. And half of those were in nursing facilities/group care homes, so only 1,750 or so deaths pertain to the majority here. So the risk for the rest of us is far, far less than from regular flu, and those of us citizens who are rational and can do some math understand the risk is next to nothing for the vast majority of us.

We've all had colds and flu enough to know what to do if we get that sick. Besides, and Importantly, the shutdown and original orders were to flatten the curve, NOT to eliminate it completely, just until we could catch our breath and get hospitals and equipment in place to handle anything as we were lied to willingly by China and WHO. I trust those in the medical field to do their jobs when called to, and leave us alone when not. Too Many are overstepping their authorities and areas of expertise right now, and their behavior is undermining their very credibility.

OK, now we caught our breath, most everyone cooperated (except the rioters/looters, who somehow have "immunity" from responsibility, but that's MSM and political games) and now people need to get back to work, get out to support their local economies by eating, shopping and attending sports and entertainment in public together and all our children need to be back in schools on campus.

If the deaths in a state of 8-9 million were 100,000 since March, I'd be more concerned. But they are only about 3,500 in our state--so nothing to worry much about, especially since half of that number were in very isolated populations that do need the extra precautions and most of us do not have any contact/interaction with them when going about our daily lives. So those populations should be the only ones who get the panic treatment, not the children and adults of the working populations of the state. Overall death number for regular folks is only about 1,750 or so...not too scary in a state of 8-9 million....

Maybe New Yorkers should be worried, since their Gov killed thousands of them on purpose and now makes posters making jokes about it...Cuomo's a sick, sick ba$tard... Our governor is a smart, responsible leader, and he only has to deal with a few prog idiot mayors in large cities who are trying to scare people who are not as smart so she can win political points and votes. That's it. By next Spring/Summer this virus will be in the past and we'll see the difference in people and leaders who lost their brains and those who soldiered through.


Edited for typos when I type too fast.

Which is precisely why I don't support mandates, nor do I support federal action. Any action should at best be at the state level.... and likely more like county or even city.... for the very reasons you mention.

Politicians have to balance a number of things... Epidemiologists don't have to be concerned with the economy... This is why someone might see a difference between what Fauci and company say, and what Trump or anyone else says... and that is as it should be...

I just think it's vitally important that people understand that masks aren't to protect the wearer... and lots of these arguments against them present data about protecting the wearer... cloth masks aren't meant for even moderately infected areas... and lots of these arguments against them present data about moderately infected areas...

and unfortunately, many people CAN'T make such rational, well informed decisions as you... they make decisions based on 'what they heard somewhere', which may be 'true', but in the wrong context as I've presented above.

Masks are a courtesy to others that do somewhat limit the spread of disease... we can argue about 'how much' and there is no single answer.... if they cause you actual physical harm, don't wear them... but do something 'else' to limit your potential for spread... If you live in a small town like I do now, I go shopping about half as often or less than I did before... I order takeout about 10 times more often than I did before... I buy a few more things online.... that, in and of itself is better than 'business as usual' and because I'm still buying as much, just larger orders... I'm not hurting the economy much... though perhaps my waiter is now my delivery guy...

The guys who irritate me are the ones who think they're 'protecting us from tyranny' by not wearing a mask.... when what they're really doing IMO is encouraging it.

I think Ham you got off on the wrong foot with the mask issue because their efficacy can be argued. The bolded is a far better argument IMO.

(07-17-2020 10:42 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

Quote:The guys who irritate me are the ones who think they're 'protecting us from tyranny' by not wearing a mask.... when what they're really doing IMO is encouraging it.

I think Ham you got off on the wrong foot with the mask issue because their efficacy can be argued. The bolded is a far better argument IMO.

Fair, but I've been saying the same thing on here since early march... I may not say it in every post, but I've said it consistently. I can't really help what people choose to read and what they gloss over.

(07-17-2020 12:28 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  

(07-17-2020 10:42 AM)vandiver49 Wrote:  

Quote:The guys who irritate me are the ones who think they're 'protecting us from tyranny' by not wearing a mask.... when what they're really doing IMO is encouraging it.

I think Ham you got off on the wrong foot with the mask issue because their efficacy can be argued. The bolded is a far better argument IMO.

Fair, but I've been saying the same thing on here since early march... I may not say it in every post, but I've said it consistently. I can't really help what people choose to read and what they gloss over.

Yes, you have been very consistent since the beginning. Not you fault but I think many were conflating your position with the notion that masks would stop the spread of the virus.

Quote:Sen. Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) plans to introduce an amendment that would withhold federal assistance payments to states that do not require face masks to be worn. The senator proposal comes as the number of coronavirus cases continues to rise throughout the country.

"In the last two weeks, 41 states saw an increase in coronavirus cases, with a total of 3.5 million infected nationwide," the senator wrote in a statement posted to her website. "California, Florida and New York each topped 300,000 cases, and Texas will soon follow. We’ve seen 60,000 new cases in five of the last six days. We’re failing to control this virus and it’s time for serious action."

Feinstein cited CDC Director Robert Redfield who said the surge in Wuhan coronavirus cases could end within two months if the country adopted "universal masking." The senator also cited companies like Walmart and Kroger that require face masks to be worn in stores throughout country as well as other nations that have instituted universal masking and "successfully" controlled the virus.

"Wearing masks in public should be mandatory. Period," Feinstein wrote. "Leader McConnell said the Senate will take up the next coronavirus economic relief bill later this month. At that time, I intend to offer an amendment to prohibit sending funds to states that haven’t adopted a statewide mask requirement."

"The situation is getting worse daily. Several states including California, Alabama and Montana already require masks in public. This should be universal. My hope has been that other governors would show the leadership to institute their own mask mandates, but so far that hasn’t happened. It’s time for Congress to step in. This is a matter of life or death, and partisan politics shouldn’t play a role."

Calls for universal masking are at odds with some governors, like Brian Kemp (R-GA) and Kristi Noem (R-SD), who have resisted efforts to institute mask-wearing within their states.

Link

Just obey

linky: Why Face Masks Don’t Work: Dentists’ Revealing Review

2016.

Already have seen a couple of states flirting w/ the idea of making masks permanent. Pass. Everyone in this country needs to tell them where they can shove their masks.

(01-14-2021 01:46 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  2016.

Just curious... what changed about masks in those few years?

(01-14-2021 01:56 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(01-14-2021 01:46 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  2016.

Just curious... what changed about masks in those few years?

In 2016 there weren't a bunch of overpaid experts sitting around with their thumb up their ass being told "YOUS GOTSA DO SUMPTIN!!!" when they had nothing to do.

Other than that absolutely nothing has changed about masks and how they work.

(01-14-2021 02:25 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(01-14-2021 01:56 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(01-14-2021 01:46 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  2016.

Just curious... what changed about masks in those few years?

In 2016 there weren't a bunch of overpaid experts sitting around with their thumb up their ass being told "YOUS GOTSA DO SUMPTIN!!!" when they had nothing to do.

Other than that absolutely nothing has changed about masks and how they work.

How dare you question MODERN Science

(01-14-2021 02:42 PM)Eldonabe Wrote:  

(01-14-2021 02:25 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  

(01-14-2021 01:56 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  

(01-14-2021 01:46 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  2016.

Just curious... what changed about masks in those few years?

In 2016 there weren't a bunch of overpaid experts sitting around with their thumb up their ass being told "YOUS GOTSA DO SUMPTIN!!!" when they had nothing to do.

Other than that absolutely nothing has changed about masks and how they work.

How dare you question MODERN Science

um...ya'll did catch that what i posted was a mirror af a story that the left recently took down (it's called, ah, um..censorship) because of course the story that had remained posted for years after 2016 all of a sudden didn't fit their present narrative. How Soviet of them.