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CFP National Championship Game: #1 Alabama vs #3 Ohio State
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JRsec Offline
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Post: #141
RE: CFP National Championship Game: #1 Alabama vs #3 Ohio State
(01-14-2021 09:59 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-14-2021 09:50 AM)bullet Wrote:  Saban can produce great offenses while constantly flipping coordinators because he has the talent.

He is a great coach. He knows how to motivate and focus his team. But with turnover in the coaching ranks, talent allows you to overcome the learning curve.

No question. But then again, there's no law that bequeaths Saban a large amount of talent each year. He gets it because he is an ace recruiter, because Alabama is a blue blood with many titles, and because of the reputation he has built up over the years in terms of having great teams and putting lots of guys in the NFL.

It's no different than why Urban Meyer got tons of talent at Ohio State and before then Florida, why Spurrier and Bowden got a ton of talent in the 1990s, why Bear Bryant had it in the 1970s, and why Duke and Kentucky and North Carolina always have tons of talent in hoops, etc.

And beyond that, give Saban credit for innovating. E.g., I recall the 2017 kickoff classic game between #1 Alabama and #3 FSU, which was being touted as a possible national title game rematch at the end of the season. They showed the coaches boxes, and Jimbo Fisher and FSU - a big time coach of a big time program - had like three guys up in their box. Saban had like 9 in his. He has "analysts" for just about everything, and most of those guys are ex-coaches who worked at major programs.
He develops his players skills and gets them drafted. Recruits play where they have the greatest chance of being noticed and making it professionally. As conferences the SEC and ACC do the best job of this, largely because of the talent pool, but what separates Saban and Swinney from the rest is the ability to develop the skill sets of the players. Malzahn for one failed to ever develop the QB's even though he had several highly rated ones at his time at Auburn. When a QB goes to Alabama or Clemson they get better than the raw talent they had.

It is the ability to evaluate talent and not just look at the number of stars next to their name, and the ability to evaluate a kids coachability and teach them to hone their skills that separates great coaches from average or even above average ones.
01-14-2021 01:36 PM
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Post: #142
RE: CFP National Championship Game: #1 Alabama vs #3 Ohio State
(01-14-2021 01:36 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-14-2021 09:59 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-14-2021 09:50 AM)bullet Wrote:  Saban can produce great offenses while constantly flipping coordinators because he has the talent.

He is a great coach. He knows how to motivate and focus his team. But with turnover in the coaching ranks, talent allows you to overcome the learning curve.

No question. But then again, there's no law that bequeaths Saban a large amount of talent each year. He gets it because he is an ace recruiter, because Alabama is a blue blood with many titles, and because of the reputation he has built up over the years in terms of having great teams and putting lots of guys in the NFL.

It's no different than why Urban Meyer got tons of talent at Ohio State and before then Florida, why Spurrier and Bowden got a ton of talent in the 1990s, why Bear Bryant had it in the 1970s, and why Duke and Kentucky and North Carolina always have tons of talent in hoops, etc.

And beyond that, give Saban credit for innovating. E.g., I recall the 2017 kickoff classic game between #1 Alabama and #3 FSU, which was being touted as a possible national title game rematch at the end of the season. They showed the coaches boxes, and Jimbo Fisher and FSU - a big time coach of a big time program - had like three guys up in their box. Saban had like 9 in his. He has "analysts" for just about everything, and most of those guys are ex-coaches who worked at major programs.
He develops his players skills and gets them drafted. Recruits play where they have the greatest chance of being noticed and making it professionally. As conferences the SEC and ACC do the best job of this, largely because of the talent pool, but what separates Saban and Swinney from the rest is the ability to develop the skill sets of the players. Malzahn for one failed to ever develop the QB's even though he had several highly rated ones at his time at Auburn. When a QB goes to Alabama or Clemson they get better than the raw talent they had.

It is the ability to evaluate talent and not just look at the number of stars next to their name, and the ability to evaluate a kids coachability and teach them to hone their skills that separates great coaches from average or even above average ones.
That is when Mack Brown dropped from a great coach to average. He got complacent in recruiting once he won the 2005 title. He got the stars. He got who he wanted. But many didn't pan out because they didn't look enough beyond the stats.
01-14-2021 01:45 PM
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cubucks Offline
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Post: #143
RE: CFP National Championship Game: #1 Alabama vs #3 Ohio State
Paul Chryst = greatness too!
01-14-2021 02:18 PM
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AllTideUp Online
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Post: #144
RE: CFP National Championship Game: #1 Alabama vs #3 Ohio State
(01-14-2021 09:48 AM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-14-2021 04:07 AM)AllTideUp Wrote:  
(01-13-2021 11:54 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(01-13-2021 11:31 PM)stever20 Wrote:  What is so amazing with Bama now is that they will be having their 7th different offensive coordinator in the last 10 seasons next year. And what at least 3-4 defensive coordinators in that same period. Yet keep on keeping on.

Pretty easy to score with that group of receivers, those linemen and Mac Jones.

Look at the talent they have stockpiled.
According to 247, Alabama has committments for next year from (just their top 10):
national rank and state of player
#4 FL
#10 TX
#14 FL
#18 AL
#34 MI
#45 AL
#50 FL
#59 TX
#64 FL
#77 TX

Similarly, Ohio St.:
#5 OH
#6 TX
#8 WA
#11 VA
#36 OH
#44 GA
#47 PA
#51 OH
#53 OH
#69 MO

If it was that easy to stockpile talent, develop it, and then get everyone to perform on game day then Bama wouldn't win anymore than anyone else.

The formula you're describing is not an unlocked mystery to the coaching ranks.

To some of your points in other threads...if the Saban system was nothing more than a matter of accumulating talent then every single one of his assistants would have duplicated it...including Sark.

Wrong.

Recruiting is a skill. It is also a process. Alabama has the biggest staff of anyone in the country. Saban has the skill, the process and the numbers.

They also have the most and the most talented group of analysts who take apart their opponents every week as well as analyzing recruits.

And then recruiting is about publicity. My whole point is that Alabama and Ohio St. being in the picture every year gives them a huge advantage that cannot be replicated. And they can go into Texas and Michigan and Washington and compete advantageously against the local schools.

When you start out on 3rd base, its a lot easier to get home.

You said it was purely about the talent and that made it easy. Of course recruiting is a skill. That was the entire point. It's not simply about having talent on your roster.

It's also about developing that talent once you acquire it. Otherwise, schools like Texas and Georgia and Florida would be winning titles every other year instead of Alabama.

Nothing prevents other schools from hiring analysts and the like. It's perfectly in line with NCAA rules and plenty of other schools have the budget.

As for starting out at 3rd base, Alabama basically sucked between the years of 1997 and 2006. Saban's first season produced a 6-6 record. We lost 6 years in a row to Auburn for heaven's sakes. How did he take a program in shambles for a decade and create a perennial superpower? How did Alabama go from also-ran to being "in the picture" every year? Winning helps perpetuate itself, obviously, but you act like it's some sort of cosmic accident...that no one had to build it...just happened on its own.

Which of course points to an incredible skill set to persevere every single coaching change. If nothing else, the talent doesn't just transfer out every time their lead recruiter takes another job.

BTW, Saban did much the same at LSU. They hadn't sniffed a national title in decades before Saban showed up and rebuilt their program.
01-14-2021 05:04 PM
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Kaplony Offline
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Post: #145
RE: CFP National Championship Game: #1 Alabama vs #3 Ohio State
(01-14-2021 01:36 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-14-2021 09:59 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-14-2021 09:50 AM)bullet Wrote:  Saban can produce great offenses while constantly flipping coordinators because he has the talent.

He is a great coach. He knows how to motivate and focus his team. But with turnover in the coaching ranks, talent allows you to overcome the learning curve.

No question. But then again, there's no law that bequeaths Saban a large amount of talent each year. He gets it because he is an ace recruiter, because Alabama is a blue blood with many titles, and because of the reputation he has built up over the years in terms of having great teams and putting lots of guys in the NFL.

It's no different than why Urban Meyer got tons of talent at Ohio State and before then Florida, why Spurrier and Bowden got a ton of talent in the 1990s, why Bear Bryant had it in the 1970s, and why Duke and Kentucky and North Carolina always have tons of talent in hoops, etc.

And beyond that, give Saban credit for innovating. E.g., I recall the 2017 kickoff classic game between #1 Alabama and #3 FSU, which was being touted as a possible national title game rematch at the end of the season. They showed the coaches boxes, and Jimbo Fisher and FSU - a big time coach of a big time program - had like three guys up in their box. Saban had like 9 in his. He has "analysts" for just about everything, and most of those guys are ex-coaches who worked at major programs.
He develops his players skills and gets them drafted. Recruits play where they have the greatest chance of being noticed and making it professionally. As conferences the SEC and ACC do the best job of this, largely because of the talent pool, but what separates Saban and Swinney from the rest is the ability to develop the skill sets of the players. Malzahn for one failed to ever develop the QB's even though he had several highly rated ones at his time at Auburn. When a QB goes to Alabama or Clemson they get better than the raw talent they had.

It is the ability to evaluate talent and not just look at the number of stars next to their name, and the ability to evaluate a kids coachability and teach them to hone their skills that separates great coaches from average or even above average ones.

The thing that amazes me is despite the similar goals and results is how different in the approach Alabama and Clemson are.

Alabama usually extends over three times the number of offers that Clemson does, and participates in both the JUCO and Transfer Portal markets, while Clemson takes no JUCOs and the only transfer portal additions have been walk-on Grad transfers like the nephew of the AD and a SC native QB who transferred from Stanford, both of which paid their own way.

Alabama develops their players in more of the traditional way where the starters and primary backups get the lion's share of playing time until late Clemson believes in rotating players early and often, and has even at times played more people in the first quarter than Alabama does in the entire game.

Yet both seem to have arrived at the same destination over and over the past few years. Just goes to show that there is more than one way to skin a cat.
01-14-2021 06:04 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #146
RE: CFP National Championship Game: #1 Alabama vs #3 Ohio State
(01-14-2021 06:04 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  The thing that amazes me is despite the similar goals and results is how different in the approach Alabama and Clemson are.

Alabama usually extends over three times the number of offers that Clemson does, and participates in both the JUCO and Transfer Portal markets, while Clemson takes no JUCOs and the only transfer portal additions have been walk-on Grad transfers like the nephew of the AD and a SC native QB who transferred from Stanford, both of which paid their own way.

As you describe it, Clemson's recruiting approach reminds me of Bobby Bowden's in the 1990s, when FSU was at its peak. FSU was always near the top of the recruiting rankings, but usually not #1. But that was because most of the rankings used a points system that rewarded volume. E.g., if team X landed a five star and a four star, that would equal 9 points. If team Y landed two four stars and three star, that would be 11 points. So team Y would be ahead in the rankings, 11 points to 9, even though team X was landing higher-quality guys, just fewer of them.

Bowden, kind of like what you are saying Clemson does, didn't offer many guys, but the guys he offered were all top of the shelf five-star guys, or four-star guys that his staff had concluded were really five-star talents. And, because of his success on the field and getting guys to the NFL, his "hit rate" in getting the guys he targeted was very high. Rival powers might sign 24 guys while FSU signed maybe 19, but FSU would have more five-star guys in their group.
(This post was last modified: 01-14-2021 07:40 PM by quo vadis.)
01-14-2021 07:35 PM
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Post: #147
RE: CFP National Championship Game: #1 Alabama vs #3 Ohio State
(01-14-2021 06:04 PM)Kaplony Wrote:  
(01-14-2021 01:36 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(01-14-2021 09:59 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(01-14-2021 09:50 AM)bullet Wrote:  Saban can produce great offenses while constantly flipping coordinators because he has the talent.

He is a great coach. He knows how to motivate and focus his team. But with turnover in the coaching ranks, talent allows you to overcome the learning curve.

No question. But then again, there's no law that bequeaths Saban a large amount of talent each year. He gets it because he is an ace recruiter, because Alabama is a blue blood with many titles, and because of the reputation he has built up over the years in terms of having great teams and putting lots of guys in the NFL.

It's no different than why Urban Meyer got tons of talent at Ohio State and before then Florida, why Spurrier and Bowden got a ton of talent in the 1990s, why Bear Bryant had it in the 1970s, and why Duke and Kentucky and North Carolina always have tons of talent in hoops, etc.

And beyond that, give Saban credit for innovating. E.g., I recall the 2017 kickoff classic game between #1 Alabama and #3 FSU, which was being touted as a possible national title game rematch at the end of the season. They showed the coaches boxes, and Jimbo Fisher and FSU - a big time coach of a big time program - had like three guys up in their box. Saban had like 9 in his. He has "analysts" for just about everything, and most of those guys are ex-coaches who worked at major programs.
He develops his players skills and gets them drafted. Recruits play where they have the greatest chance of being noticed and making it professionally. As conferences the SEC and ACC do the best job of this, largely because of the talent pool, but what separates Saban and Swinney from the rest is the ability to develop the skill sets of the players. Malzahn for one failed to ever develop the QB's even though he had several highly rated ones at his time at Auburn. When a QB goes to Alabama or Clemson they get better than the raw talent they had.

It is the ability to evaluate talent and not just look at the number of stars next to their name, and the ability to evaluate a kids coachability and teach them to hone their skills that separates great coaches from average or even above average ones.

The thing that amazes me is despite the similar goals and results is how different in the approach Alabama and Clemson are.

Alabama usually extends over three times the number of offers that Clemson does, and participates in both the JUCO and Transfer Portal markets, while Clemson takes no JUCOs and the only transfer portal additions have been walk-on Grad transfers like the nephew of the AD and a SC native QB who transferred from Stanford, both of which paid their own way.

Alabama develops their players in more of the traditional way where the starters and primary backups get the lion's share of playing time until late Clemson believes in rotating players early and often, and has even at times played more people in the first quarter than Alabama does in the entire game.

Yet both seem to have arrived at the same destination over and over the past few years. Just goes to show that there is more than one way to skin a cat.

yeah and then the stability with the coaching staffs are night and day as well...
01-15-2021 12:00 AM
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