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jarr Offline
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Thank Mick for this mess
He was sleepwalking through this his last few years, left the cupboard bare, geta strung along by UCLA till mid June leaving little to no other options.

To me the jury is still out on Brannen, but early returns are not looking good. Mick got 5 years to get mediocre, Brannen should get 3 unless the wheels really fall off and recruiting does not pick up.

There are some good pieces right now that jist haven't been put together, but Davenport, Harvey, Eason, and Saunders I believe could create a good nucleus in 2 years.

If Brannen doesn't work out, it is time to take a serious look at Pitino which should have been done in the first olace.
 
01-03-2021 01:27 PM
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rath v2.0 Online
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RE: Thank Mick for this mess
Complain about whose fault this is...Mixk would have done just fine last year and this year with that roster. doesn’t really change the fact that Brannen and his NKU staffers seem to be sinking fast. Trying to win with skinny guys who can’t shoot is a ballsy move.

Interesting kenpom note BTW...UCLA is a plodding, glacial 346th in offensive pace this season....but are top 11 in offensive efficiency. Oh, he also has a top 5 recruiting class with a top 10 commitment and 2 other top 50 recruits and is in the final group for the #3, #4 and #6 players in the class nationally.

Climate must agree with them. He and Savino figured out how to teach offense and recruit or sumfin’.
 
01-03-2021 01:47 PM
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Former Lurker Offline
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RE: Thank Mick for this mess
It takes a pretty active imagination to blame Mick for this mess. Any blue chip recruits he had would have followed him to UCLA regardless, and better freshman and sophomores would have transferred out because that's what they all do now that everybody's a free agent.
 
01-03-2021 01:50 PM
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dsquare Offline
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RE: Thank Mick for this mess
There's a lot more blame to place on the guys shooting the ball right now.
 
01-03-2021 01:54 PM
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QSECOFR Offline
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RE: Thank Mick for this mess
(01-03-2021 01:50 PM)Former Lurker Wrote:  It takes a pretty active imagination to blame Mick for this mess. Any blue chip recruits he had would have followed him to UCLA regardless, and better freshman and sophomores would have transferred out because that's what they all do now that everybody's a free agent.

^ Voice of wisdom. 04-cheers
 
01-03-2021 01:58 PM
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Cat-Man Offline
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RE: Thank Mick for this mess
(01-03-2021 01:47 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Complain about whose fault this is...Mixk would have done just fine last year and this year with that roster. doesn’t really change the fact that Brannen and his NKU staffers seem to be sinking fast. Trying to win with skinny guys who can’t shoot is a ballsy move.

Interesting kenpom note BTW...UCLA is a plodding, glacial 346th in offensive pace this season....but are top 11 in offensive efficiency. Oh, he also has a top 5 recruiting class with a top 10 commitment and 2 other top 50 recruits and is in the final group for the #3, #4 and #6 players in the class nationally.

Climate must agree with them. He and Savino figured out how to teach offense and recruit or sumfin’.

Meh. UCLA recruits itself. Steve Alford had TWO top 5 recruiting classes and his others were ranked 11th, 24th, 7th and 12th. Ben Howland had the #1 ranked class the year before he was fired.
 
01-03-2021 02:14 PM
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bearcatmark Online
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RE: Thank Mick for this mess
I'm sure Mick would have done fine last year as he still had Jarron, Tre, Keith and would have had Brooks. But I'm very skeptical he'd have had a tournament team this season. Since he brought UC back to the tournament he never had the talent drain in the upper class he was looking at this season. He's always been able to ride a couple really good upperclassman (usually at least one being a star) and role players to the tournament. He would have needed to find a couple big transfers or top end recruits to get there this year. Given his previous couple classes nothing makes me think he was going to do that, at least here.

I think people undervalued the consistency he achieved here, but I also think many are overlooking how bare the cupboard was starting this year. Mick had ridden high on three straight recruiting classes with an elite talent (Clark in 15, Evans in 16 and Jarron in 17). With that elite talent the ability to develop roll players and middle range talent worked. But he didn't recruit and elite end talent in 18 or 19 and honestly other than Keith didn't even recruit the type of middle role player that develops over his career (like Scott, Brooks, Jenifer). Maybe it's just that he had one foot out the door. I don't know, but that dropoff is certainly relevant to where we are today.
 
(This post was last modified: 01-03-2021 02:27 PM by bearcatmark.)
01-03-2021 02:25 PM
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RE: Thank Mick for this mess
Yes Mick does deserve some blame all former coaches do as transitions are not easy but Brannen had done nothing to make feel good for the future of the program. College basketball players are basically free agents. We are long past the days of kids sitting out and building a program. Each year you have to recruit your own guys to stay, the others teams guys to come, not to mention high school, aau, prep school, and juco. Teams at the high major level are going to look like the Kentucky model in terms of roster turnover. In my view Mick so this coming because he recruited specifically to make sure he didn’t have massive turnover. When the rules and climate changed in college basketball he needed to be able get better short term guys, which he is getting at UCLA.

Whoever is coaching at UC needs to be able get at least one to two all league impact guys a year from wherever.
 
01-03-2021 02:26 PM
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RE: Thank Mick for this mess
I was getting tired of Cronin but I don't think he was looking too hard to get out of here until his last season and UCLA fell into his lap. I guess he did check into UNLV?

I'm very concerned with what I'm seeing with Brannen. He's lost some players that certainly would have helped, but the lack of defense and extremely poor offense is a huge worry right now. There is no player that can be counted on every game.

UC's offense under Cronin was not good either, but he won and the team was tough.

I don't fault the players right now - they are trying and playing hard but some are just not ready yet and some may never be ready for division 1. I hope to see some improvement soon.
 
01-03-2021 02:29 PM
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Bcatbog Offline
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RE: Thank Mick for this mess
Mick created the 2020/2021 mess. Brennan has not fixed it- yet.
 
01-03-2021 02:42 PM
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CliftonAve Offline
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RE: Thank Mick for this mess
I posted this the other day on twitter; but discussing UC basketball is simply not fun. We have to many loyalists to former coaches who want to fight you if you diss their guy (the last two coaches) and on the other hand we have people who think we should be winning 25 games every year.

This is supposed to be fun, damnit!
 
01-03-2021 02:44 PM
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rath v2.0 Online
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RE: Thank Mick for this mess
(01-03-2021 02:25 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  I'm sure Mick would have done fine last year as he still had Jarron, Tre, Keith and would have had Brooks. But I'm very skeptical he'd have had a tournament team this season. Since he brought UC back to the tournament he never had the talent drain in the upper class he was looking at this season. He's always been able to ride a couple really good upperclassman (usually at least one being a star) and role players to the tournament. He would have needed to find a couple big transfers or top end recruits to get there this year. Given his previous couple classes nothing makes me think he was going to do that, at least here.

I think people undervalued the consistency he achieved here, but I also think many are overlooking how bare the cupboard was starting this year. Mick had ridden high on three straight recruiting classes with an elite talent (Clark in 15, Evans in 16 and Jarron in 17). With that elite talent the ability to develop roll players and middle range talent worked. But he didn't recruit and elite end talent in 18 or 19 and honestly other than Keith didn't even recruit the type of middle role player that develops over his career (like Scott, Brooks, Jenifer). Maybe it's just that he had one foot out the door. I don't know, but that dropoff is certainly relevant to where we are today.

A dozen years of track record says Mick would have been just fine. Kelvin Sampson probably sent a thank you note to UCLA after they hired Mick.

On the upside, Jarr has gotten the white kids signed that he always complained about not having. 03-lmfao

Look, coaching changes happen everywhere. They cause short term chaos when they do. It’s up to the guy that got hired to manage that immediately. So far, just not seeing it. This time last year was a mess as well. He is starting to get that doe in the headlights look about him. With the new facility, the brand name, and the resources and a better conference, betcha he figured this would be easier than it is and perhaps thought standards and expectations of the people that pay the freight would not be as high as they are. That’s what happens when you take a job with a $1.2 million bump in annual salary.

We will perhaps limp through a multi-generationally bad season this year and he’ll likely shake up his in over its head coaching staff come March before we start bringing in more transfers to fill the open roster spots. Hopefully he’ll do a better job of evaluation with those than he has to date.

Frankly, I’m still more concerned with what I see as being a poorly coached team. Over 30 years we have seen that UC wins due to force of personality and will of the head coach. This team may have taken on the personality of a nice guy, analytics wonk head coach.
 
01-03-2021 02:45 PM
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Cataclysmo Online
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RE: Thank Mick for this mess
I care so little about Mick. He was here for ages and I just don't feel like there was anything left that we missed out on. Would he have been better than this? Yeah. Was there any indication he could have a team that's better than the 2012 or 2018 squad? Not really...
 
01-03-2021 02:54 PM
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rath v2.0 Online
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RE: Thank Mick for this mess
Is there any indication any of this will be? Perhaps it will happen. However, I see better than I hear.
 
01-03-2021 02:59 PM
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RE: Thank Mick for this mess
(01-03-2021 02:59 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Is there any indication any of this will be? Perhaps it will happen. However, I see better than I hear.

I'd put the odds at no, but I'd have said that for whoever we brought in (unless we had a coup with someone like Billy Donovan).

I just don't think things are quite as bad as they seem right now and think given the massive roster turnover it's way too early to have any idea what Brannen will be.

My best comparison for this team is the 2009 team. Basically Mick had 1 upper classman who had been in the program for multiple seasons (Deonta Vaughn / Keith Williams), one 2nd year senior transfer (Mike Williams / Vogt), a junior transfer (Toyloy / DeJulius) and then a lot of first or second year guys learning to contribute.

That Mick team ran off some wins early by playing 6 teams below 284 kenpom teams but finished 86 kenpom. They had 2 four game losing streaks and lost 6 of their last 7 games, including to kenpom 206 depaul and kenpom 136 South Floirda. Guys like Gates, Dixon and Bishop would go on to be key players on tournament teams (including a sweet 16 team for the first two), but it wasn't an ideal mix for competing right then.

I don't know that Brannen brings his guys along and blends incoming players like Mick did to create a tournament team two seasons later, but this situation feels a lot like that to me.
 
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01-03-2021 03:26 PM
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Cataclysmo Online
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RE: Thank Mick for this mess
Nope, not really. But the goal is to win it all, and we had over a decade to see that Mick wasn't goin to be the one to do it. It sucks that Brannan has been a dud so far but I still don't lose sleep over how Mick left.

Huggins is a different story.
 
01-03-2021 03:28 PM
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Cataclysmo Online
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RE: Thank Mick for this mess
What's weird about this team is that there actually is talent there and losing this much hasn't really convinced me otherwise. Harvey, Mika, JD, and Dejulius are all guys I'd be excited about. I think someone like Mick could take those young guys and probably give us a 7-10 seed type season that leaves us optomistic about the next few years. It's concerning Brannen can't figure out how to make these guys at least somewhat competitive.
 
01-03-2021 03:30 PM
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RE: Thank Mick for this mess
(01-03-2021 03:30 PM)Cataclysmo Wrote:  What's weird about this team is that there actually is talent there and losing this much hasn't really convinced me otherwise. Harvey, Mika, JD, and Dejulius are all guys I'd be excited about. I think someone like Mick could take those young guys and probably give us a 7-10 seed type season that leaves us optomistic about the next few years. It's concerning Brannen can't figure out how to make these guys at least somewhat competitive.

See my 2009 comp. I agree there is talent there. But as a whole they don't fit right and aren't ready yet. There were key pieces to Mick's first two tournament teams on the 2009 that finished 86 kenpom and lost games to Depaul (206 kenpom) and South Floirda (136 kenpom).
 
01-03-2021 03:37 PM
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rath v2.0 Online
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RE: Thank Mick for this mess
I agree with you on some of that.

It’s the death by 1000 little cuts that is worrisome. The bad basketball retrovirus...some games we turn the ball over all game...some games we get out physicaled by smaller teams,some games we look disinterested for long stretches, many games we can’t throw the ball into the water from a boat, can’t hit free throws when they matter, can’t stop the ball on D, can’t help defend...but the underlying thing I keep seeing is a team that often looks unprepared and lacks simple awareness. We don’t even know when and who to foul in end game situations. That’s inexcusable and is not the players’ fault.
 
01-03-2021 03:38 PM
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bearcatmark Online
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RE: Thank Mick for this mess
(01-03-2021 03:38 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  I agree with you on some of that.

It’s the death by 1000 little cuts that is worrisome. The bad basketball retrovirus...some games we turn the ball over all game...some games we get out physicaled by smaller teams,some games we look disinterested for long stretches, many games we can’t throw the ball into the water from a boat, can’t hit free throws when they matter, can’t stop the ball on D, can’t help defend...but the underlying thing I keep seeing is a team that often looks unprepared and lacks simple awareness. We don’t even know when and who to foul in end game situations. That’s inexcusable and is not the players’ fault.

I get it, but that's how these things are sometimes with teams with rosters with this kind of turnover. Mick's 2009 team finished 108th in adjusted defense. The next year they were 44th. He'd never have another team finish outside the top 30. The 2009n team would lose holding memphis to 60 on the road then lose allowing providence to score 87 at home. I'm just not one to make snap judgments when things are down. I think we have far too little information to know what Brannen can be.
 
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01-03-2021 03:44 PM
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