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rath v2.0 Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Thank Mick for this mess
I’m not undervaluing that at all. Who is to say who would have been added in addition to Samari Curtis. Can’t look at it in a vacuum.

You think UC would have zero recruits committed for the 21’ class in 2021?
 
01-04-2021 12:04 PM
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UCBearcatlawjd2 Offline
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Post: #42
RE: Thank Mick for this mess
All I know is that the players are current brought in are not good enough. That is unacceptable when you think how the transfer market works.
 
01-04-2021 12:08 PM
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Post: #43
RE: Thank Mick for this mess
(01-04-2021 12:04 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  I’m not undervaluing that at all. Who is to say who would have been added in addition to Samari Curtis. Can’t look at it in a vacuum.

You think UC would have zero recruits committed for the 21’ class in 2021?

Which is why I said maybe he could have put together a class that had those instant impact guys. If he did perhaps they'd have made the tournament. But I don't think it was a given and the two prior classes didn't suggest he was recruiting at a level he would (and only having Curtis as a commit for the next season).

I just think the roster flaws in the current junior/senior classes were huge and are absolutely the result of poor recruiting that may have ended the streak regardless. However, his leaving, combined with those huge flaws, and huge roster turnover put the program in a huge hole. Reminds me a lot of the situation we were in in 2008-2009. Just limited impact in the upper class and guys who look like they could be real assets down the road not ready to play at a tournament level yet.
 
01-04-2021 12:12 PM
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rath v2.0 Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Thank Mick for this mess
(01-04-2021 12:08 PM)UCBearcatlawjd2 Wrote:  All I know is that the players are current brought in are not good enough. That is unacceptable when you think how the transfer market works.

Yeah, being the 1st to call Rap 15 minutes after he hit the transfer portal to ask him to be our starting PF...A+ for initiative...D- for evaluation and wisdom. Like the bengals fan in every Fantasy Football draft that grabs their favorite players 4 rounds too early.
 
(This post was last modified: 01-04-2021 12:13 PM by rath v2.0.)
01-04-2021 12:13 PM
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Post: #45
RE: Thank Mick for this mess
(01-04-2021 11:57 AM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(01-04-2021 11:36 AM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  Anyone really think Williams would be struggling in this role under the last staff? I don’t because we saw it every other year where he made things work somehow by changing what we did to fit the player.

I strongly disagree with your take on Williams who I never saw as much more than a role player on good teams. I think his problem is because of the combination of his experience and the inexperience of the roster he is forced to play a role he was never meant to play. Keith is much more of a Shaq Thomas than an SK/Jarron.
100% correct. KW is an athlete like Shaq; not a facilitator. The only reason that he might be struggling less under Mick is that Mick valued defense first and hated turnovers that didn't allow him to set his defense. He would probably not give KW the rope Brannen has. In basketball your lead guard has to have vision and a feel for the game; IMO you can improve these skills but a lot of it is based on your natural abilities. Jarron is a natural facilitator who could score at an elite level. KW is an athlete. When he sees an opportunity to penetrate the defense he only sees the rim and tries to get there. JE3 had a feel for the game, Troy did too.

But if Cronin had tried to run the offense through KW this is the only forseeable outcome.
 
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01-04-2021 12:14 PM
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Post: #46
RE: Thank Mick for this mess
(01-04-2021 12:08 PM)UCBearcatlawjd2 Wrote:  All I know is that the players are current brought in are not good enough. That is unacceptable when you think how the transfer market works.

Maybe. Maybe not. I've made the 2009 roster composition comp a few times. That roster had impact guys who would be key in two tournament bids (including a sweet 16), but it just wasn't there yet. There had been big roster turnover in the upper class and the transfers filling the gaps just weren't enough.
 
01-04-2021 12:14 PM
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rath v2.0 Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Thank Mick for this mess
(01-04-2021 12:12 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(01-04-2021 12:04 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  I’m not undervaluing that at all. Who is to say who would have been added in addition to Samari Curtis. Can’t look at it in a vacuum.

You think UC would have zero recruits committed for the 21’ class in 2021?

Which is why I said maybe he could have put together a class that had those instant impact guys. If he did perhaps they'd have made the tournament. But I don't think it was a given and the two prior classes didn't suggest he was recruiting at a level he would (and only having Curtis as a commit for the next season).

I just think the roster flaws in the current junior/senior classes were huge and are absolutely the result of poor recruiting that may have ended the streak regardless. However, his leaving, combined with those huge flaws, and huge roster turnover put the program in a huge hole. Reminds me a lot of the situation we were in in 2008-2009. Just limited impact in the upper class and guys who look like they could be real assets down the road not ready to play at a tournament level yet.

Once again, Mick’s track record for somehow making it work with what he had meant smart money would have sided with it working. The guy made a lot of money doing more with less.

Wanting a new coach that could do a lot more with more is reasonable ...just don’t think I’ve seen enough to think/hope we have that guy.
 
01-04-2021 12:17 PM
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Post: #48
RE: Thank Mick for this mess
(01-04-2021 12:17 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  
(01-04-2021 12:12 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(01-04-2021 12:04 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  I’m not undervaluing that at all. Who is to say who would have been added in addition to Samari Curtis. Can’t look at it in a vacuum.

You think UC would have zero recruits committed for the 21’ class in 2021?

Which is why I said maybe he could have put together a class that had those instant impact guys. If he did perhaps they'd have made the tournament. But I don't think it was a given and the two prior classes didn't suggest he was recruiting at a level he would (and only having Curtis as a commit for the next season).

I just think the roster flaws in the current junior/senior classes were huge and are absolutely the result of poor recruiting that may have ended the streak regardless. However, his leaving, combined with those huge flaws, and huge roster turnover put the program in a huge hole. Reminds me a lot of the situation we were in in 2008-2009. Just limited impact in the upper class and guys who look like they could be real assets down the road not ready to play at a tournament level yet.

Once again, Mick’s track record for somehow making it work with what he had meant smart money would have sided with it working. The guy made a lot of money doing more with less.

Wanting a new coach that could do a lot more with more is reasonable ...just don’t think I’ve seen enough to think/hope we have that guy.

I was an advocate for keeping Mick and appreciated what he did here. His track record was also built around having quality players. Gates, SK, Clark, Evans and Jarron were clearly dudes you could build around from their first minutes on the court. Cash and Troy were the same to a lesser extent. Those were the guys he built around and developed role players into impact complimentary players around. Those guys weren't here. He was going to be in a different type of situation had he stayed. And since he didn't stay it compounded the problem.
 
01-04-2021 12:24 PM
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rath v2.0 Offline
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Post: #49
RE: Thank Mick for this mess
I was an advocate for at least not pushing him towards another job like Bohn did. Wasn’t against a new direction but would have preferred an actual candidate search.
 
01-04-2021 12:32 PM
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Post: #50
RE: Thank Mick for this mess
(01-04-2021 12:32 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  I was an advocate for at least not pushing him towards another job like Bohn did. Wasn’t against a new direction but would have preferred an actual candidate search.

If this is the case maybe it explains the recruiting decline. I don't know enough about what happens within the UC athletic department to comment. I got the impression he was out the door when he seriously flirted with UNLV. In retrospect maybe it would have been better if he left then because we were in far better shape as far as the players in the fold.
 
01-04-2021 12:35 PM
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rath v2.0 Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Thank Mick for this mess
I think Bohn saw value in shifting resources to football...getting Mick to move on saved about $1.5 million per year in basketball staff salary plus a $1million payment from UCLA. I don’t necessarily think it was a move to improve UC basketball.

That year #1 $2.5 million paid for a CLF raise and extra $$ for guys like Marcus Freeman which ultimately helped keep them from working in East Lansing this past season.
 
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01-04-2021 12:48 PM
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Post: #52
RE: Thank Mick for this mess
(01-04-2021 12:48 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  I think Bohn saw value in shifting resources to football...getting Mick to move on saved about $1.5 million per year in basketball staff salary plus a $1million payment from UCLA. I don’t necessarily think it was a move to improve UC basketball.

That year #1 $2.5 million paid for a CLF raise and extra $$ for guys like Marcus Freeman which ultimately helped keep them from working in East Lansing this past season.

That actually makes sense if you think about it. TV ratings and attendance are much higher for FB than MB. Attention is focused on FB for four months plus; BB mostly draws eyeballs for two and a half months, or arguably just a week or two.

The counter-argument is that UC is one of the few "basketball first" schools in the country, and there is an intangible value in keeping the program first rate. It carried the athletic department through entire decades when FB was entirely irrelevant, and can potentially do so if called upon in the future. Only a fool of an AD would surrender 70 years of goodwill without a fight.
 
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01-04-2021 01:22 PM
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Post: #53
RE: Thank Mick for this mess
I have heard that the way Bohn handled the Mick situation and his contract did not sit well with many on the BoT. Don’t think it was much of a secret that Bohn and Mick did not get along.
 
01-04-2021 01:26 PM
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rath v2.0 Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Thank Mick for this mess
(01-04-2021 01:22 PM)Former Lurker Wrote:  
(01-04-2021 12:48 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  I think Bohn saw value in shifting resources to football...getting Mick to move on saved about $1.5 million per year in basketball staff salary plus a $1million payment from UCLA. I don’t necessarily think it was a move to improve UC basketball.

That year #1 $2.5 million paid for a CLF raise and extra $$ for guys like Marcus Freeman which ultimately helped keep them from working in East Lansing this past season.

Thai actually makes sense if you think about it. TV ratings and attendance are much higher for FB than MB. Attention is focused on FB for four months plus; BB mostly draws eyeballs for two and a half, or arguably just a week or two.

The counter-argument is that UC is one of the few "basketball first" schools in the country, and there is an intangible value in keeping the program first rate. It carried the athletic department through entire decades when FB was entirely irrelevant, and can potentially do so if called upon in the future. Only a fool of an AD would surrender 70 years of goodwill without a fight.

I'm not sure that UC is basketball first anymore (and that has nothing to do with this season's cruddy on the court performance). The days of forcing people to buy football tickets to get MBB tickets are long gone. If you did a sampling of UC donors who list sports as a driving force for their financial support, I wonder if football would now garner more in terms of individual donors and/or volume.
 
01-04-2021 01:49 PM
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Post: #55
RE: Thank Mick for this mess
(01-04-2021 01:22 PM)Former Lurker Wrote:  
(01-04-2021 12:48 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  I think Bohn saw value in shifting resources to football...getting Mick to move on saved about $1.5 million per year in basketball staff salary plus a $1million payment from UCLA. I don’t necessarily think it was a move to improve UC basketball.

That year #1 $2.5 million paid for a CLF raise and extra $$ for guys like Marcus Freeman which ultimately helped keep them from working in East Lansing this past season.

Thai actually makes sense if you think about it. TV ratings and attendance are much higher for FB than MB. Attention is focused on FB for four months plus; BB mostly draws eyeballs for two and a half, or arguably just a week or two.

The counter-argument is that UC is one of the few "basketball first" schools in the country, and there is an intangible value in keeping the program first rate. It carried the athletic department through entire decades when FB was entirely irrelevant, and can potentially do so if called upon in the future. Only a fool of an AD would surrender 70 years of goodwill without a fight.

If you basketball first fans want in a good conference, it'll happen because of football. Not the other way around.
 
01-04-2021 01:50 PM
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Post: #56
RE: Thank Mick for this mess
(01-04-2021 12:35 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(01-04-2021 12:32 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  I was an advocate for at least not pushing him towards another job like Bohn did. Wasn’t against a new direction but would have preferred an actual candidate search.

If this is the case maybe it explains the recruiting decline. I don't know enough about what happens within the UC athletic department to comment. I got the impression he was out the door when he seriously flirted with UNLV. In retrospect maybe it would have been better if he left then because we were in far better shape as far as the players in the fold.

UC would be in much better shape if Mick went to UNLV

Leaving on April 9th killed any chance of having a good recruiting class
Plus he whiffed on 7 of the last 8 Guys he signed

Mick left UC in a bad spot
 
(This post was last modified: 01-04-2021 02:19 PM by HoopsJunky.)
01-04-2021 02:19 PM
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Post: #57
RE: Thank Mick for this mess
(01-04-2021 02:19 PM)HoopsJunky Wrote:  
(01-04-2021 12:35 PM)bearcatmark Wrote:  
(01-04-2021 12:32 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  I was an advocate for at least not pushing him towards another job like Bohn did. Wasn’t against a new direction but would have preferred an actual candidate search.

If this is the case maybe it explains the recruiting decline. I don't know enough about what happens within the UC athletic department to comment. I got the impression he was out the door when he seriously flirted with UNLV. In retrospect maybe it would have been better if he left then because we were in far better shape as far as the players in the fold.

UC would be in much better shape if Mick went to UNLV

Leaving on April 9th killed any chance of having a good recruiting class
Plus he whiffed on 7 of the last 8 Guys he signed

Mick left UC in a bad spot

Which is why the Brannen hire is mind boggling. You either needed to hire Savino to keep continuity or a high major coach that can recruit top level guys.

This isn’t 2007 when transfer rules were very restrictive. This isn’t the 90s where you could get a damn good team from the Juco ranks.

College basketball is about landing top 150 guys and impact transfers every year. You just don’t build a team by developing guys in a system at the high major level. You live with roster turnover but you have to be able knock it out of the park on the recruiting side. I think our current staff is a better fit for Missouri Valley or C-USA. Basically they would do well at high level mid-major league where you can still system your way to the top of the league. I also believe Mick knew this and went to a place that made his recruiting easier.
 
01-04-2021 02:29 PM
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Post: #58
RE: Thank Mick for this mess
(01-04-2021 12:48 PM)rath v2.0 Wrote:  I think Bohn saw value in shifting resources to football...getting Mick to move on saved about $1.5 million per year in basketball staff salary plus a $1million payment from UCLA. I don’t necessarily think it was a move to improve UC basketball.

That year #1 $2.5 million paid for a CLF raise and extra $$ for guys like Marcus Freeman which ultimately helped keep them from working in East Lansing this past season.

This is the crux of it and, again, the reason I don't care much for this conversation. Was it the smarter move to keep Mick happy and be satisfied with good but not great seasons? Yes. But when he made a big scene about getting a raise I kinda understood the frustration Bohn had with him. When we lost to Iowa, I remember having a conversation about how Mick showed what type of coach he was from 2010 to 2020. And we should be happy with what he was. But it wasn't irreplaceable. And it needed to be better at some point. Bohn had an obligation as AD to force some changes in the program. Mick thought he should be more grateful. A divorce was inevitable.
 
01-04-2021 02:40 PM
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rath v2.0 Offline
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Post: #59
RE: Thank Mick for this mess
As much as I would not have been excited about Savino, we’d be in a better spot right now and possibly in the future.

If this hits full on dumpster fire level this season...it’s smoldering... we are going to see guys transferring out that we planned to build around.
 
01-04-2021 02:40 PM
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Post: #60
RE: Thank Mick for this mess
I'm genuinely curious as to who people think would've been a better hire than Brannen at the time. He took a D2 program and made them into a tournament team 2 of the 4 years he was there. They were the best team in the conference the year in between. That's an impressive feat whether you're at NKU or Murray State.

I mean, would Frank Martin be better than this? Probably. But he still wouldn't have been a smart hire. Brannen was an obvious choice.
 
01-04-2021 02:43 PM
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