(01-13-2021 06:03 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  

(01-13-2021 04:09 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(01-13-2021 04:01 PM)Realignment Wrote:  The SEC is the premiere conference in College Football. After that, the rest are there to try and slay the beast.

Big Time Programs

SEC (Alabama, Georgia, Florida & LSU)
ACC (Clemson, Florida State & Miami)
Big 12 (Oklahoma & Texas)
Big Ten (Michigan, Ohio State & Penn State)
Pac-12 (Oregon & USC)

2nd Tier Big Time Programs

SEC (Arkansas, Ole Miss, Tennessee & Texas A&M)
ACC (Louisville)
Big 12 (Oklahoma State)
Big Ten (Michigan State & Wisconsin)
Pac-12 (Stanford, UCLA & Washington)

That's how I would see it for these conferences right now. The rest are more feel good stories for the programs if they find success.

Your understanding of Big Time programs and 2nd Tier programs is lacking.

Auburn has won a title and played for one. Georgia has made the CFP and won 1 game. And yet you do not list Auburn in either grouping. Arkansas, Ole Miss and Tennessee haven't won anything in over 15 years. Texas A&M is yet to win the SEC but I admit they are an improving program and relatively strong.

Miami hasn't won anything in over 15 years either and Florida State while deserving of their position has dropped off the charts the past few years.

Oregon has never won anything but they have played for a title. Washington probably deserves to be on par with Oregon because they did get a piece of a title some 20 plus years ago.

Penn State hasn't won a Big 10 title and hasn't made the CFP. They are strong but not Ohio State level. Ohio State no longer has peers in the Big 10.

All else aside, I believe Penn St won the B1G in 2016.

And has played in the Rose, Fiesta and Cotton bowls since then.

(01-13-2021 04:01 PM)Realignment Wrote:  The SEC is the premiere conference in College Football. After that, the rest are there to try and slay the beast.

Big Time Programs

SEC (Alabama, Georgia, Florida & LSU)
ACC (Clemson, Florida State & Miami)
Big 12 (Oklahoma & Texas)
Big Ten (Michigan, Ohio State & Penn State)
Pac-12 (Oregon & USC)

2nd Tier Big Time Programs

SEC (Arkansas, Ole Miss, Tennessee & Texas A&M)
ACC (Louisville)
Big 12 (Oklahoma State)
Big Ten (Michigan State & Wisconsin)
Pac-12 (Stanford, UCLA & Washington)

That's how I would see it for these conferences right now. The rest are more feel good stories for the programs if they find success.

I would probably replace Louisville with Virginia Tech and add Auburn on the SEC big time programs. Oklahoma State on that list has question marks considering West Virginia and TCU have better records in the BCS/CFP era.

(01-13-2021 08:59 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  

(01-13-2021 06:03 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  

(01-13-2021 04:09 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(01-13-2021 04:01 PM)Realignment Wrote:  The SEC is the premiere conference in College Football. After that, the rest are there to try and slay the beast.

Big Time Programs

SEC (Alabama, Georgia, Florida & LSU)
ACC (Clemson, Florida State & Miami)
Big 12 (Oklahoma & Texas)
Big Ten (Michigan, Ohio State & Penn State)
Pac-12 (Oregon & USC)

2nd Tier Big Time Programs

SEC (Arkansas, Ole Miss, Tennessee & Texas A&M)
ACC (Louisville)
Big 12 (Oklahoma State)
Big Ten (Michigan State & Wisconsin)
Pac-12 (Stanford, UCLA & Washington)

That's how I would see it for these conferences right now. The rest are more feel good stories for the programs if they find success.

Your understanding of Big Time programs and 2nd Tier programs is lacking.

Auburn has won a title and played for one. Georgia has made the CFP and won 1 game. And yet you do not list Auburn in either grouping. Arkansas, Ole Miss and Tennessee haven't won anything in over 15 years. Texas A&M is yet to win the SEC but I admit they are an improving program and relatively strong.

Miami hasn't won anything in over 15 years either and Florida State while deserving of their position has dropped off the charts the past few years.

Oregon has never won anything but they have played for a title. Washington probably deserves to be on par with Oregon because they did get a piece of a title some 20 plus years ago.

Penn State hasn't won a Big 10 title and hasn't made the CFP. They are strong but not Ohio State level. Ohio State no longer has peers in the Big 10.

All else aside, I believe Penn St won the B1G in 2016.

And has played in the Rose, Fiesta and Cotton bowls since then.

We are talking championships. A USC fan presented a list. Those were debated. I haven't seen Penn State in the CFP yet. I didn't google everything but since they had not been in the CFP I had forgotten they won the Big 10 and didn't go. The SEC has won 11 of the last 15 natty's with Clemson taking 2, Florida State 1, and Ohio State 1. The issue I raised was why some regions were dominant. That means that the states of Louisiana, Alabama, South Carolina, and Florida have accounted for the overwhelming majority and the others since the BCS were from Texas, Oklahoma and Ohio. All of those places are where high school football is still a religion. As support for, and participation in, high school football has dipped everywhere else particularly on the two coasts the game has become regional. It's been quite awhile since Penn State played for a natty. It's a very strong program but not dominant.

(01-13-2021 09:11 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(01-13-2021 08:59 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  

(01-13-2021 06:03 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  

(01-13-2021 04:09 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(01-13-2021 04:01 PM)Realignment Wrote:  The SEC is the premiere conference in College Football. After that, the rest are there to try and slay the beast.

Big Time Programs

SEC (Alabama, Georgia, Florida & LSU)
ACC (Clemson, Florida State & Miami)
Big 12 (Oklahoma & Texas)
Big Ten (Michigan, Ohio State & Penn State)
Pac-12 (Oregon & USC)

2nd Tier Big Time Programs

SEC (Arkansas, Ole Miss, Tennessee & Texas A&M)
ACC (Louisville)
Big 12 (Oklahoma State)
Big Ten (Michigan State & Wisconsin)
Pac-12 (Stanford, UCLA & Washington)

That's how I would see it for these conferences right now. The rest are more feel good stories for the programs if they find success.

Your understanding of Big Time programs and 2nd Tier programs is lacking.

Auburn has won a title and played for one. Georgia has made the CFP and won 1 game. And yet you do not list Auburn in either grouping. Arkansas, Ole Miss and Tennessee haven't won anything in over 15 years. Texas A&M is yet to win the SEC but I admit they are an improving program and relatively strong.

Miami hasn't won anything in over 15 years either and Florida State while deserving of their position has dropped off the charts the past few years.

Oregon has never won anything but they have played for a title. Washington probably deserves to be on par with Oregon because they did get a piece of a title some 20 plus years ago.

Penn State hasn't won a Big 10 title and hasn't made the CFP. They are strong but not Ohio State level. Ohio State no longer has peers in the Big 10.

All else aside, I believe Penn St won the B1G in 2016.

And has played in the Rose, Fiesta and Cotton bowls since then.

We are talking championships. A USC fan presented a list. Those were debated. I haven't seen Penn State in the CFP yet. I didn't google everything but since they had not been in the CFP I had forgotten they won the Big 10 and didn't go. The SEC has won 11 of the last 15 natty's with Clemson taking 2, Florida State 1, and Ohio State 1. The issue I raised was why some regions were dominant. That means that the states of Louisiana, Alabama, South Carolina, and Florida have accounted for the overwhelming majority and the others since the BCS were from Texas, Oklahoma and Ohio. All of those places are where high school football is still a religion. As support for, and participation in, high school football has dipped everywhere else particularly on the two coasts the game has become regional. It's been quite awhile since Penn State played for a natty. It's a very strong program but not dominant.

You mentioned Penn State hasn’t won a Big Ten title. BePcr07 mentioned the Nittany Lions won the conference in 2016. I added it has played in three NY6 bowls since then. There’s no other program in the nation like Alabama. At this point is Alabama with perhaps 10 programs trying to play catch up.

(01-13-2021 09:24 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  

(01-13-2021 09:11 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(01-13-2021 08:59 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  

(01-13-2021 06:03 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  

(01-13-2021 04:09 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Your understanding of Big Time programs and 2nd Tier programs is lacking.

Auburn has won a title and played for one. Georgia has made the CFP and won 1 game. And yet you do not list Auburn in either grouping. Arkansas, Ole Miss and Tennessee haven't won anything in over 15 years. Texas A&M is yet to win the SEC but I admit they are an improving program and relatively strong.

Miami hasn't won anything in over 15 years either and Florida State while deserving of their position has dropped off the charts the past few years.

Oregon has never won anything but they have played for a title. Washington probably deserves to be on par with Oregon because they did get a piece of a title some 20 plus years ago.

Penn State hasn't won a Big 10 title and hasn't made the CFP. They are strong but not Ohio State level. Ohio State no longer has peers in the Big 10.

All else aside, I believe Penn St won the B1G in 2016.

And has played in the Rose, Fiesta and Cotton bowls since then.

We are talking championships. A USC fan presented a list. Those were debated. I haven't seen Penn State in the CFP yet. I didn't google everything but since they had not been in the CFP I had forgotten they won the Big 10 and didn't go. The SEC has won 11 of the last 15 natty's with Clemson taking 2, Florida State 1, and Ohio State 1. The issue I raised was why some regions were dominant. That means that the states of Louisiana, Alabama, South Carolina, and Florida have accounted for the overwhelming majority and the others since the BCS were from Texas, Oklahoma and Ohio. All of those places are where high school football is still a religion. As support for, and participation in, high school football has dipped everywhere else particularly on the two coasts the game has become regional. It's been quite awhile since Penn State played for a natty. It's a very strong program but not dominant.

You mentioned Penn State hasn’t won a Big Ten title. BePcr07 mentioned the Nittany Lions won the conference in 2016. I added it has played in three NY6 bowls since then. There’s no other program in the nation like Alabama. At this point is Alabama with perhaps 10 programs trying to play catch up.

You didn't read any of the thread past the last few posts did you? The issue isn't Alabama, but the region where the vast majority of championship teams are coming from and why. It had nothing to do with what bowls Penn State played in. They haven't played for a national championship in forever. Strong program? Yes Dominant one? No. Look at a map and see where all but 1 of the last 15 national champions reside. Then go back to the start of the BCS in '98 and do the same. Since we did away with polls the preponderance of champions come from the four Southeastern States I have listed plus Texas, Tennessee, Oklahoma, and Southern Cal in 2004. Ohio State has won 2 since the BCS began.

So minus Southern Cal who I think had to vacate that one, though it is still listed. They are the anomaly along with Tennessee. All others came from Alabama, Florida, South Carolina, Louisiana, Texas, Oklahoma or Ohio, all states where high school football is still revered. The regions of the country where participation in it has declined (West Coast, Northeast, East Coast) the schools who once competed at least occasionally for championships have not. There is your statistical evidence to indicate the regionality of what was once a national sport. That doesn't mean it isn't played nationally, but that dominance in it is regional and regional due to the abundance of recruits. That began back toward the end of the poll era, but those championships were voted. Since the titles have been claimed on the field the evidence of regional dominance is overwhelming. Ohio is part of that culture, but no other Big 10 state is. Texas and Oklahoma are part of that culture. No other Big 12 states are. And in the SEC the preponderance of titles has come from 3 states. Oddly Georgia isn't among them. It's not just regional, it's very regional.

(01-13-2021 09:42 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(01-13-2021 09:24 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  

(01-13-2021 09:11 PM)JRsec Wrote:  

(01-13-2021 08:59 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  

(01-13-2021 06:03 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  All else aside, I believe Penn St won the B1G in 2016.

And has played in the Rose, Fiesta and Cotton bowls since then.

We are talking championships. A USC fan presented a list. Those were debated. I haven't seen Penn State in the CFP yet. I didn't google everything but since they had not been in the CFP I had forgotten they won the Big 10 and didn't go. The SEC has won 11 of the last 15 natty's with Clemson taking 2, Florida State 1, and Ohio State 1. The issue I raised was why some regions were dominant. That means that the states of Louisiana, Alabama, South Carolina, and Florida have accounted for the overwhelming majority and the others since the BCS were from Texas, Oklahoma and Ohio. All of those places are where high school football is still a religion. As support for, and participation in, high school football has dipped everywhere else particularly on the two coasts the game has become regional. It's been quite awhile since Penn State played for a natty. It's a very strong program but not dominant.

You mentioned Penn State hasn’t won a Big Ten title. BePcr07 mentioned the Nittany Lions won the conference in 2016. I added it has played in three NY6 bowls since then. There’s no other program in the nation like Alabama. At this point is Alabama with perhaps 10 programs trying to play catch up.

You didn't read any of the thread past the last few posts did you? The issue isn't Alabama, but the region where the vast majority of championship teams are coming from and why. It had nothing to do with what bowls Penn State played in. They haven't played for a national championship in forever. Strong program? Yes Dominant one? No. Look at a map and see where all but 1 of the last 15 national champions reside. Then go back to the start of the BCS in '98 and do the same. Since we did away with polls the preponderance of champions come from the four Southeastern States I have listed plus Texas, Tennessee, Oklahoma, and Southern Cal in 2004. Ohio State has won 2 since the BCS began.

So minus Southern Cal who I think had to vacate that one, though it is still listed. They are the anomaly along with Tennessee. All others came from Alabama, Florida, South Carolina, Louisiana, Texas, Oklahoma or Ohio, all states where high school football is still revered. The regions of the country where participation in it has declined (West Coast, Northeast, East Coast) the schools who once competed at least occasionally for championships have not. There is your statistical evidence to indicate the regionality of what was once a national sport. That doesn't mean it isn't played nationally, but that dominance in it is regional and regional due to the abundance of recruits. That began back toward the end of the poll era, but those championships were voted. Since the titles have been claimed on the field the evidence of regional dominance is overwhelming. Ohio is part of that culture, but no other Big 10 state is. Texas and Oklahoma are part of that culture. No other Big 12 states are. And in the SEC the preponderance of titles has come from 3 states. Oddly Georgia isn't among them. It's not just regional, it's very regional.

I read the whole thread. I just added a comment on the poster who wrote Penn State won a conference title in 2016. That’s it.

(01-13-2021 04:53 PM)Mav Wrote:  

(01-13-2021 10:05 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  That's 11 national titles for the SEC in the past 15 seasons.

That's not only unprecedented generally, it's unprecedented for the SEC as well. The SEC has won a total of 22 AP national titles, and 11, half of them, have come in the last 15 years.

Between 1936 and 2006, a full 70 years, the SEC won 11 AP titles.

The Mouse runs the sport. The Mouse loves the SEC. You'll probably get another 11 in the next 15, too.

(01-13-2021 04:32 PM)bullet Wrote:  

(01-13-2021 04:01 PM)Realignment Wrote:  The SEC is the premiere conference in College Football. After that, the rest are there to try and slay the beast.

Big Time Programs

SEC (Alabama, Georgia, Florida & LSU)
ACC (Clemson, Florida State & Miami)
Big 12 (Oklahoma & Texas)
Big Ten (Michigan, Ohio State & Penn State)
Pac-12 (Oregon & USC)

2nd Tier Big Time Programs

SEC (Arkansas, Ole Miss, Tennessee & Texas A&M)
ACC (Louisville)
Big 12 (Oklahoma State)
Big Ten (Michigan State & Wisconsin)
Pac-12 (Stanford, UCLA & Washington)

That's how I would see it for these conferences right now. The rest are more feel good stories for the programs if they find success.

There are 18 programs that have won all the titles in the last 35 years. Those + Oregon and Georgia have dominated the top of the polls at least back to 1968. Your top group does not include Auburn, Tennessee, Notre Dame, Washington, Nebraska or Colorado.

Nebraska fans just got done being excited they managed to beat Rutgers. Nebraska's a complete joke now. Even the local kids in Omaha are starting to wear Iowa gear around instead. It turns out losing 11 straight to your declared rivals has ramifications.

(01-13-2021 04:14 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  

(01-13-2021 03:48 PM)JRsec Wrote:  If you really want to see where the power is consolidated then confine the champions to the States of Alabama, South Carolina, Florida and Louisiana and drop the conference affiliation. What you are witnessing very clearly is a consolidation of football strength in a very small region of the country, but one in which high school football is still a religion. What this represents is quantitative proof that it not only is becoming a regional sport, but has become a regional sport.

Now if you look at the whole BCS / CFP era you can see that there is still strength in the states of Oklahoma and Texas and that Ohio is still strong as well, but with minor exceptions not enough to overcome schools located in the Deep Southeast. This isn't a statement of SEC superiority, but rather a very clear picture of the power centers of the game and they are far from nationwide.

I think you're on to something: the areas where high school football is "religion" are the places where great college programs are.

High school football is a religion really in only a few places: the Deep South, much of Texas & Oklahoma, and much of Ohio. And it's in a severe decline in the Northeast & the West Coast.

This explains why the strongest programs North of the Mason-Dixon line in recent years (Ohio State, Notre Dame, Wisconsin, Cincinnati) are in Ohio or don't recruit much locally. It explains the decline of programs like Syracuse, Boston College, Penn State, and the original PAC-8.

You're seeing bleeding in the Great Plains, too. Programs out in the rural parts of the state, where high school football is a much bigger deal, are feeling the squeeze of urban flight and having to consolidate. Many of these consolidations are two old rivals having to share a new uniform, name, and colors, which kills a lot of local enthusiasm. The Omaha metro puts out decent talent, but a lot of it ends up in Iowa, North Dakota, South Dakota, or Wyoming. CTE-mania has led a lot of mothers to pressure their kids to take up other sports instead, cross country being a major beneficiary of football's PR decline.
A local writer in Omaha has done amazing work chronicling the decline of high school football in Nebraska. A lot of the problems mirror the way the state is changing as a whole.
https://omaha.com/special_sections/the-d...-football/
https://omaha.com/sports/huskers/footbal...fb33a.html

Tennessee is pretty down now. There was a time just prior to Saban when Alabama was pretty mediocre. Oklahoma was pretty weak in the early 90s. Colorado is of course waaaay down.

But most of the schools in that top 20 will turn it around. Every one of those schools has at least 5 top 5 finishes since 1968. Outside that group, only Pitt with 4 has more than 3 (only UCLA and ASU even have 3 in 53 years). Each of those schools have at least 4 top 5 finishes since 1985 and 2 top 3 finishes. Nobody else has more than 2 top 5 and only TCU has more than 1 top 3. There are only 8 top 3 finishes out side this group in the last 36 years. There are only 14 in the last 53 years. Think about that! You only get someone else in the top 3 about every 4th year.

The post suggested Texas A&M was 2nd tier (and somehow forgot Auburn). This year was the first time since 1957 when Bear Bryant coached there that A&M finished the season in the top 5. Its not a large group that seriously contends for a title.