The unofficial online home for fans of the Old Dominion University Monarchs. Part of Collegiate Sports Nation (CSN).

All things change.

The CAA now is w/o Mason and VCU in basketball.
There is some indicia that W&M is exploring the Patriot League.

FCS as a whole has become almost exclusively the JMU and NDSU show. Both programs have outgrown an FCS that lost signature powers GaSo and App State, as well as up-and-coming programs at Coastal Carolina, Liberty, ODU, and Ga State.

Even if we went back, we would be going back to something entirely different from what we left.
IMHO we must look forward, not back.

(01-06-2021 11:46 AM)ODUwildman Wrote:  

(01-06-2021 11:34 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(01-06-2021 10:35 AM)ODUwildman Wrote:  

(01-06-2021 09:48 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Obviously Football is way better off in CUSA than CAA. And I don't think its safe to assume we would have more fans in the stands with CAA football.

We sold out every game in FCS. I think we'd still be in the top 5-10 nationally if still in FCS and winning keeps butts in the seats. Sure, FBS might be better quality of football and a higher level of player, but in Hampton Roads, you don't get people in the stands if you don't win.

Not a great comparison, but level-wise, we saw this with the Admirals. They were stuffing Scope in one of the lower levels of hockey when winning. The attendance drain was significant with the move to the AHL. Higher level hockey, fewer seasons where it was the place to be due to winning. Ticket prices also impacted this to some degree.

If still FCS, I don't think the winning subsides nearly as much. Still looking at conference championships and runs against schools we have rivalries with. Are you arguing with your coworker from North Texas or your coworker from William & Mary?

With us, it's about winning and losing, not about the level of play. I can't validate this with anything concrete, but I believe a 5-5 FCS team vs. W&M would outdraw a 5-5 FBS team vs. Rice at Ballard. Winning, Local Interest and then Quality of play are the three factors that, in my experience, impact ODU attendance across all sports.

For every JMU or W&M grad I know (gotta be at least 5 that i know care about those sports), there are hundreds of VT fans I know. And UVA. And UNC. And NC State.

Virginia Tech game would have been full no matter what. Still selling out games 9 years after the new has worn off was about winning.

JMU beat VT when it was FCS. Only people who remember that are JMU fans and VT fans who point to losses to ODU, Liberty and JMU as a problem with its program. VT, UVA, UNC and NC State don't see us as contemporaries or rivals. We get a shot at those teams on a rotating basis once a year, maybe more if teams need the easy W and we need a money game.

We can turn the discussion on that too. Who was Liberty's first FBS win as an FBS school? Yup. For that VT win, we've got 52-10 against one of the most reviled schools in the country.

You can't ride one good win that was statistically improbable as the life blood of the program. "Well, we beat VT"

"Well, we're 1-11"

Didn't have a problem selling out games at the FCS level. because WINNING.

But, we aren't getting to play 1-2 ACC schools per year if we are at the FCS level. And certainly not at home. I really don't care about being rivals with ACC schools in football.

Don't even need to ride that win. We get to play a pretty awesome schedule with ACC schools at home. That will continue to get people in the stands as much or more than W&M and Richmond. So after that we are left with schools like Marshall, WKY, MTSU, etc. as opposed to Elon and Stony Brook.

The reason to go back to FCS should not be because we have rivalry with W&M and JMU.

I wouldn't argue that we should go back to FCS. Hell, I wouldn't even argue that in the landscape that existed at the time of our move, we should have opted to stay in FCS. We are where we are right now and we can only move forward. That doesn't mean I can't reflect on how the dominoes ended up falling and wonder whether we would have been better off not accepting the CUSA invite, knowing what we know now.

I'm not advocating a move BACK to FCS, I'm pointing out the move to FBS and CUSA specifically was poor, because it impacted the entire athletic department in a way that's led to the situation the school is in now. Poor leaders make poor decisions and the people who suffer are the athletes and a small portion of the alumni who are emotionally and financially vested in the school.

What can ODU hang it hat on right now after its move to CUSA?
A win over Virginia Tech (something JMU and Liberty also have)
A bowl win over Eastern Michigan, one of the worst Division I football programs in the last 25 years.

What is the goal here? Even Cincinnati went unbeaten in the regular season and got shut out. Even if things are perfect, what's the goal with this? A middling bowl game on December 23? I'd have rather won a national championship at FCS then jumped to be honest.

(01-06-2021 12:00 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  I wouldn't argue that we should go back to FCS. Hell, I wouldn't even argue that in the landscape that existed at the time of our move, we should have opted to stay in FCS. We are where we are right now and we can only move forward. That doesn't mean I can't reflect on how the dominoes ended up falling and wonder whether we would have been better off not accepting the CUSA invite, knowing what we know now.

I'm basically saying this too. Your brevity is better than mine.

(01-06-2021 12:00 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  I wouldn't argue that we should go back to FCS. Hell, I wouldn't even argue that in the landscape that existed at the time of our move, we should have opted to stay in FCS. We are where we are right now and we can only move forward. That doesn't mean I can't reflect on how the dominoes ended up falling and wonder whether we would have been better off not accepting the CUSA invite, knowing what we know now.

With the information and the state of the conference at the time, the move to CUSA was the right one. If we knew then what we know now, I think it would be clear it was the wrong move. But I cant blame the admin for making it when they did. When we moved it was not just for a step up in quality, but also every football and more basketball on real TV. Including national TV with Fox Sports. Plus $1.1 million dollars annually for us from the media deal, and a close strong rival with ECU, and decent basketball partners with Tulsa and Tulane. We had to take that deal, especially considering how it looked like the CAA was crumbling at the time. The problem is within 2 years that was almost all gone.

(01-06-2021 12:04 PM)ODUwildman Wrote:  What is the goal here? Even Cincinnati went unbeaten in the regular season and got shut out. Even if things are perfect, what's the goal with this? A middling bowl game on December 23? I'd have rather won a national championship at FCS then jumped to be honest.

The purpose of an athletics department is to promote the university.

FAU saw an increase of 35% in out of state applications while Kiffin was there. That type of increase raises the quality of the student body, improving the way the school is viewed in rankings and eventually leading to more and more applications.

Source for stat;
https://www.upressonline.com/2018/03/foo...st-season/

(01-06-2021 12:04 PM)ODUwildman Wrote:  I'm not advocating a move BACK to FCS, I'm pointing out the move to FBS and CUSA specifically was poor, because it impacted the entire athletic department in a way that's led to the situation the school is in now. Poor leaders make poor decisions and the people who suffer are the athletes and a small portion of the alumni who are emotionally and financially vested in the school.

What can ODU hang it hat on right now after its move to CUSA?
A win over Virginia Tech (something JMU and Liberty also have)
A bowl win over Eastern Michigan, one of the worst Division I football programs in the last 25 years.

What is the goal here? Even Cincinnati went unbeaten in the regular season and got shut out. Even if things are perfect, what's the goal with this? A middling bowl game on December 23? I'd have rather won a national championship at FCS then jumped to be honest.

Why cant they simply hang their hat on being in FBS football as opposed to FCS?

(01-06-2021 12:16 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(01-06-2021 12:04 PM)ODUwildman Wrote:  I'm not advocating a move BACK to FCS, I'm pointing out the move to FBS and CUSA specifically was poor, because it impacted the entire athletic department in a way that's led to the situation the school is in now. Poor leaders make poor decisions and the people who suffer are the athletes and a small portion of the alumni who are emotionally and financially vested in the school.

What can ODU hang it hat on right now after its move to CUSA?
A win over Virginia Tech (something JMU and Liberty also have)
A bowl win over Eastern Michigan, one of the worst Division I football programs in the last 25 years.

What is the goal here? Even Cincinnati went unbeaten in the regular season and got shut out. Even if things are perfect, what's the goal with this? A middling bowl game on December 23? I'd have rather won a national championship at FCS then jumped to be honest.

Why cant they simply hang their hat on being in FBS football as opposed to FCS?

They can if it makes them feel better, but the juice still wasn't worth the squeeze and who cares? Isn't that just an argument that 10 years ago they had the money and now they don't? That's like the Jets arguing they have a great franchise because they won Super Bowl IV. Bottom line is right now we are so broke we opted out of playing an entire season of football and all of our programs that anyone gives a hoot about are likely in the bottom half of one of the worst conferences in the country.

(01-06-2021 11:46 AM)ODUwildman Wrote:  

(01-06-2021 11:34 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(01-06-2021 10:35 AM)ODUwildman Wrote:  

(01-06-2021 09:48 AM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Obviously Football is way better off in CUSA than CAA. And I don't think its safe to assume we would have more fans in the stands with CAA football.

We sold out every game in FCS. I think we'd still be in the top 5-10 nationally if still in FCS and winning keeps butts in the seats. Sure, FBS might be better quality of football and a higher level of player, but in Hampton Roads, you don't get people in the stands if you don't win.

Not a great comparison, but level-wise, we saw this with the Admirals. They were stuffing Scope in one of the lower levels of hockey when winning. The attendance drain was significant with the move to the AHL. Higher level hockey, fewer seasons where it was the place to be due to winning. Ticket prices also impacted this to some degree.

If still FCS, I don't think the winning subsides nearly as much. Still looking at conference championships and runs against schools we have rivalries with. Are you arguing with your coworker from North Texas or your coworker from William & Mary?

With us, it's about winning and losing, not about the level of play. I can't validate this with anything concrete, but I believe a 5-5 FCS team vs. W&M would outdraw a 5-5 FBS team vs. Rice at Ballard. Winning, Local Interest and then Quality of play are the three factors that, in my experience, impact ODU attendance across all sports.

For every JMU or W&M grad I know (gotta be at least 5 that i know care about those sports), there are hundreds of VT fans I know. And UVA. And UNC. And NC State.

Virginia Tech game would have been full no matter what. Still selling out games 9 years after the new has worn off was about winning.

JMU beat VT when it was FCS. Only people who remember that are JMU fans and VT fans who point to losses to ODU, Liberty and JMU as a problem with its program. VT, UVA, UNC and NC State don't see us as contemporaries or rivals. We get a shot at those teams on a rotating basis once a year, maybe more if teams need the easy W and we need a money game.

We can turn the discussion on that too. Who was Liberty's first FBS win as an FBS school? Yup. For that VT win, we've got 52-10 against one of the most reviled schools in the country.

You can't ride one good win that was statistically improbable as the life blood of the program. "Well, we beat VT"

"Well, we're 1-11"

Didn't have a problem selling out games at the FCS level. because WINNING.

Well, that is our problem, and one that, once the Ol from 2013, TH, and the receivers aged out, likely would have come upon us even at FCS.
App, GaSo, CCU, Liberty, and GaSt. seem to be progressing, and so should we.

(01-06-2021 12:40 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(01-06-2021 12:16 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(01-06-2021 12:04 PM)ODUwildman Wrote:  I'm not advocating a move BACK to FCS, I'm pointing out the move to FBS and CUSA specifically was poor, because it impacted the entire athletic department in a way that's led to the situation the school is in now. Poor leaders make poor decisions and the people who suffer are the athletes and a small portion of the alumni who are emotionally and financially vested in the school.

What can ODU hang it hat on right now after its move to CUSA?
A win over Virginia Tech (something JMU and Liberty also have)
A bowl win over Eastern Michigan, one of the worst Division I football programs in the last 25 years.

What is the goal here? Even Cincinnati went unbeaten in the regular season and got shut out. Even if things are perfect, what's the goal with this? A middling bowl game on December 23? I'd have rather won a national championship at FCS then jumped to be honest.

Why cant they simply hang their hat on being in FBS football as opposed to FCS?

They can if it makes them feel better, but the juice still wasn't worth the squeeze and who cares? Isn't that just an argument that 10 years ago they had the money and now they don't? That's like the Jets arguing they have a great franchise because they won Super Bowl IV. Bottom line is right now we are so broke we opted out of playing an entire season of football and all of our programs that anyone gives a hoot about are likely in the bottom half of one of the worst conferences in the country.

So we opted out due to financial concerns and not safety concerns?

(01-06-2021 12:14 PM)ODUDrunkard13 Wrote:  

(01-06-2021 12:04 PM)ODUwildman Wrote:  What is the goal here? Even Cincinnati went unbeaten in the regular season and got shut out. Even if things are perfect, what's the goal with this? A middling bowl game on December 23? I'd have rather won a national championship at FCS then jumped to be honest.

The purpose of an athletics department is to promote the university.

FAU saw an increase of 35% in out of state applications while Kiffin was there. That type of increase raises the quality of the student body, improving the way the school is viewed in rankings and eventually leading to more and more applications.

Source for stat;
https://www.upressonline.com/2018/03/foo...st-season/

I agree with all of that, but you also have to do what it takes to actually achieve the returns that FAU did, and ODU does not seem willing to make that kind of financial commitment to hiring those types of coaches. Who here thinks there is a chance in hell that if there was a Lane Kiffin type option out there when ODU hired Rahne they would have moved heaven and earth to get him?

(01-06-2021 01:02 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(01-06-2021 12:40 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(01-06-2021 12:16 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(01-06-2021 12:04 PM)ODUwildman Wrote:  I'm not advocating a move BACK to FCS, I'm pointing out the move to FBS and CUSA specifically was poor, because it impacted the entire athletic department in a way that's led to the situation the school is in now. Poor leaders make poor decisions and the people who suffer are the athletes and a small portion of the alumni who are emotionally and financially vested in the school.

What can ODU hang it hat on right now after its move to CUSA?
A win over Virginia Tech (something JMU and Liberty also have)
A bowl win over Eastern Michigan, one of the worst Division I football programs in the last 25 years.

What is the goal here? Even Cincinnati went unbeaten in the regular season and got shut out. Even if things are perfect, what's the goal with this? A middling bowl game on December 23? I'd have rather won a national championship at FCS then jumped to be honest.

Why cant they simply hang their hat on being in FBS football as opposed to FCS?

They can if it makes them feel better, but the juice still wasn't worth the squeeze and who cares? Isn't that just an argument that 10 years ago they had the money and now they don't? That's like the Jets arguing they have a great franchise because they won Super Bowl IV. Bottom line is right now we are so broke we opted out of playing an entire season of football and all of our programs that anyone gives a hoot about are likely in the bottom half of one of the worst conferences in the country.

So we opted out due to financial concerns and not safety concerns?

Pretty sure that is the case. We are playing basketball right now, and the COVID landscape is worse than it was when they decided to cancel football.

(01-06-2021 01:06 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(01-06-2021 01:02 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(01-06-2021 12:40 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(01-06-2021 12:16 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(01-06-2021 12:04 PM)ODUwildman Wrote:  I'm not advocating a move BACK to FCS, I'm pointing out the move to FBS and CUSA specifically was poor, because it impacted the entire athletic department in a way that's led to the situation the school is in now. Poor leaders make poor decisions and the people who suffer are the athletes and a small portion of the alumni who are emotionally and financially vested in the school.

What can ODU hang it hat on right now after its move to CUSA?
A win over Virginia Tech (something JMU and Liberty also have)
A bowl win over Eastern Michigan, one of the worst Division I football programs in the last 25 years.

What is the goal here? Even Cincinnati went unbeaten in the regular season and got shut out. Even if things are perfect, what's the goal with this? A middling bowl game on December 23? I'd have rather won a national championship at FCS then jumped to be honest.

Why cant they simply hang their hat on being in FBS football as opposed to FCS?

They can if it makes them feel better, but the juice still wasn't worth the squeeze and who cares? Isn't that just an argument that 10 years ago they had the money and now they don't? That's like the Jets arguing they have a great franchise because they won Super Bowl IV. Bottom line is right now we are so broke we opted out of playing an entire season of football and all of our programs that anyone gives a hoot about are likely in the bottom half of one of the worst conferences in the country.

So we opted out due to financial concerns and not safety concerns?

Pretty sure that is the case. We are playing basketball right now, and the COVID landscape is worse than it was when they decided to cancel football.

We couldn't even practice with a full team (less than half) in football when the season started. That isn't a problem in basketball. Its much easier to keep 20 people safe than 125.

I think the discussion this thread has morphed into answers some of the questions posed at the beginning of the thread. We might be trying to compete in big boy football, but outside of our bubble, no one's really noticing.

I will continue to stand by my statement that any administration that creates a Title IX problem where there wasn't one prior failed to do its job. Wood's contract has been posted publicly and Title IX is one of the contractual obligations of their job. Wood's administration created the Title IX problem, which was an excuse in the drop of a sport. And this administration created a Title IX compliance issue, at a school that was on the forefront of Title IX initiatives historically. Law has been on the books for decades. It's not new. It's part of the job, even pointing to it as an excuse is irresponsible, unprofessional and offensive to the previous leadership at the school that made ODU unique in how it treated Title IX.

So getting off the football discussion and back to the OP's question - we're worse off.

(01-06-2021 12:04 PM)ODUwildman Wrote:  I'm not advocating a move BACK to FCS, I'm pointing out the move to FBS and CUSA specifically was poor, because it impacted the entire athletic department in a way that's led to the situation the school is in now. Poor leaders make poor decisions and the people who suffer are the athletes and a small portion of the alumni who are emotionally and financially vested in the school.

At the time making the move to I-A football was the right call (I still think the right decision was made). We were going to a version of CUSA that had ECU, Tulane (I know they suck but that is a damn fun road trip), and Tulsa. It also had a much higher media profile than the CAA and pretty decent media payouts. If we had turned that down to continue playing I-AA football for the sake of keeping all the sports in the cozy CAA I would have been leading the charge to fire Wood, J-Brod, and shake-up the BOV and ODAF board. Even with the changes to CUSA membership, financial payouts, piss poor conference leadership, and media deals it is still a better setup than what we would have in the current version of the CAA. I was way more excited about our home game with UVA this year than anything the CAA could ever provide us.

One big thing being overlooked here is the impact of the Cox Bill. That has been the single biggest negative impact of our move to I-A than anything else and was nothing more than a spiteful act of a small man. If we did not have the budgetary constraints necessitated by that nonsense I dare say we are not having this conversation today.

(01-06-2021 01:26 PM)ODU2K1 Wrote:  One big thing being overlooked here is the impact of the Cox Bill. That has been the single biggest negative impact of our move to I-A than anything else and was nothing more than a spiteful act of a small man. If we did not have the budgetary constraints necessitated by that nonsense I dare say we are not having this conversation today.

While that's absolutely, 100% true, you have to wonder how many institutions who are run optimally rely on student fees at the rate ODU and other state schools did? It's all hindsight now, but it showed our athletic departments finances weren't what they seemed. The Cox Bill showed the disparity in fundraising and actual revenues once the students paying the bill got cut significantly.

You couldn't foresee that, just like you couldn't foresee a pandemic, but a better system should have been in place long before Selig, so that's not 100% on him either.

(01-06-2021 01:26 PM)ODU2K1 Wrote:  

(01-06-2021 12:04 PM)ODUwildman Wrote:  I'm not advocating a move BACK to FCS, I'm pointing out the move to FBS and CUSA specifically was poor, because it impacted the entire athletic department in a way that's led to the situation the school is in now. Poor leaders make poor decisions and the people who suffer are the athletes and a small portion of the alumni who are emotionally and financially vested in the school.

One big thing being overlooked here is the impact of the Cox Bill. That has been the single biggest negative impact of our move to I-A than anything else and was nothing more than a spiteful act of a small man. If we did not have the budgetary constraints necessitated by that nonsense I dare say we are not having this conversation today.

Our admin should be fighting that bill hard right now. With the financial issues that have been caused by COVID, it is a prime opportunity for schools to kick and scream about how dire their circumstances currently are and lean on the folks in Richmond to provide some relief by softening or repealing that law.

Help me understand. Moving to FBS was the wrong decision but staying in FCS would have also been wrong? What was the correct action going forward in 2012?

(01-06-2021 01:09 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(01-06-2021 01:06 PM)Monarchblue Wrote:  

(01-06-2021 01:02 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  

(01-06-2021 12:40 PM)EverRespect Wrote:  

(01-06-2021 12:16 PM)Gilesfan Wrote:  Why cant they simply hang their hat on being in FBS football as opposed to FCS?

They can if it makes them feel better, but the juice still wasn't worth the squeeze and who cares? Isn't that just an argument that 10 years ago they had the money and now they don't? That's like the Jets arguing they have a great franchise because they won Super Bowl IV. Bottom line is right now we are so broke we opted out of playing an entire season of football and all of our programs that anyone gives a hoot about are likely in the bottom half of one of the worst conferences in the country.

So we opted out due to financial concerns and not safety concerns?

Pretty sure that is the case. We are playing basketball right now, and the COVID landscape is worse than it was when they decided to cancel football.

We couldn't even practice with a full team (less than half) in football when the season started. That isn't a problem in basketball. Its much easier to keep 20 people safe than 125.

I have no doubt that financial concerns and safety concerns were both factors whether they will admit it or not. I think the argument is which was the bigger factor. Because the decision was made before the conference made a decision and laid out their safety plan, I think that financial concerns were the driver. With basketball, I don’t know when the decision was made to play but they certainly didn’t opt out before the conference laid out their plan.