(12-29-2020 07:09 AM)jsw3ent Wrote:  

(12-29-2020 01:06 AM)SeñorTiger Wrote:  This is a damned if Penny does and damned if Penny doesn't. If he does change the offense he has to admit the old system did not work and gets questioned why he ever ran it. If he doesn't change it then we all bemoan our horrible offense... With that in mind you can take the interview one of two ways, mainly negative or mainly positive.

Personally, I am giving Penny the benefit of the doubt here. I am much more encouraged that he recognized his very broken system (albeit very obvious), admitted it and is taking steps to correct it. That is pretty much what you want in leader when he sees his strategy is not working. The alternative if he refuse to admit its broken and continue running it.

Here is my summary of the interview
- It started off bad. He did basically take credit for the defense and then say he turned the offense over to Cody and it did not work and he (Penny) did not understand it enough to question Cody.
- He then basically blamed the players for playing for themselves and not for the team.
- Okay, had the interview ended after 2 or 3 minutes it would have been a disaster.
- As the interview, I thought he began expounding on the above and it became clear that he was not placing the blame on the players or Cody. I thought he actually accepted the blame for not stepping in quickly enough and not trusting himself and his offense enough to implement it.
- I also thought what he said about the team in South Dakota made a lot of sense. He clearly planned on Deandre being eligible by the first game and game planned accordingly. When they did not happen they basically went in unprepared. They also did not have time due to COVID to get all of their defensive presses and alignments in place.
- In the end it sounded like a 2nd or 3rd year head coach coming to the realization that he has some successes (defense) and has some failures (offense) and realizes them and is attempting to adjust accordingly. It is just my opinion but that is all you can really expect and hope for with a first time head coach only 2 seasons in...

I think there are two ways you can take the interview.

Yeah--COVID only kept us from getting presses and alignments in place---other teams got lucky and dodged COVID.

No, I imagine it hindered every team. I honestly have no kept up with rankings but I am willing to bet there is a very strong correlation between number of freshman and sophomores (no mater how highly rated) and getting off to a slower start as opposed to teams with age and experience.

(12-29-2020 09:06 AM)Atlanta Wrote:  Here's my frustration.....Penny is quoted in the CA a couple of days AFTER the Tulsa loss, "“I honestly think it’s not about changing what we do. It’s just about understanding personnel", then out of the blue he now says we need to change the offense with no other game input??? That is not the expected thought progression of a coach in touch with the reality around him. And even the casual fan can easily see the lack of consistent, efficient offense since day one this season - and this with a high level of talent. And now I hear Penny may switch gears again. THE COACH NEEDS TO BE THE LEADER, HE HAS TO LEAD. This ain't leadership

See, I do not understand this mindset at all.

Your idea of leadership is the driver refusing to admit the car is off the road and ultimately just driving off the cliff because LEADERS HAVE TO LEAD?

No, true leaders are constantly assessing, analyzing, critiquing and changing to circumstances and situations. True leaders admit when they have driven the bus off the road and then change course to get it back on track.

IMO this is the first time I have seen Penny show humility and true leadership by admitting his offense was terrible and making a change to try and get it fixed.

(12-29-2020 05:27 AM)ericsrevenge76 Wrote:  I've read over and over again on this board that Penny needed to hire someone and delegate the x and o's of the offense to them, then Penny admits he was delegating the x and o's on offense to an assistant coach and the same people scream its embarrassing that he would delegate the offensive x and o's to another coach.

Classic MT.org

Hopefully the changes will right the ship for this team. This is a good test to see if Penny has the chops to turn this around this year. They are not all freshmen anymore and they have the talent to do so if the staff can figure it out.

(12-29-2020 09:36 AM)SeñorTiger Wrote:  

(12-29-2020 09:06 AM)Atlanta Wrote:  Here's my frustration.....Penny is quoted in the CA a couple of days AFTER the Tulsa loss, "“I honestly think it’s not about changing what we do. It’s just about understanding personnel", then out of the blue he now says we need to change the offense with no other game input??? That is not the expected thought progression of a coach in touch with the reality around him. And even the casual fan can easily see the lack of consistent, efficient offense since day one this season - and this with a high level of talent. And now I hear Penny may switch gears again. THE COACH NEEDS TO BE THE LEADER, HE HAS TO LEAD. This ain't leadership

See, I do not understand this mindset at all.

Your idea of leadership is the driver refusing to admit the car is off the road and ultimately just driving off the cliff because LEADERS HAVE TO LEAD?

No, true leaders are constantly assessing, analyzing, critiquing and changing to circumstances and situations. True leaders admit when they have driven the bus off the road and then change course to get it back on track.

IMO this is the first time I have seen Penny show humility and true leadership by admitting his offense was terrible and making a change to try and get it fixed.

I guess. To me it sounds like an excuse. Was the offense we were running that difficult to figure out? The problem was never the offense IMO, it was that the players weren't executing the offense. Four guys standing in the same spot a lot while the other guy dribbles around. You wouldn't think that would be the offense as Toppert designed it.

Back in the day I taught a nursing chemistry lab at Memphis. A student asked me a question and without thinking I gave an answer that wasn't correct. I looked up and every student was writing down what I just said. I had to correct myself. I think what Penny has yet to learn s that his words mean something and players take them to heart good or bad. You can't tell players and recruits all the time that you are going to get them to the NBA and then be surprised when they are selfish. You can't tell players that his team is going to be the fastest in the country and then expect them not to hurry shots. You can't tell Lance Thomas he's a stretch 4 and then be surprised if all he does is shoot 3's.

(12-29-2020 09:06 AM)Atlanta Wrote:  Here's my frustration.....Penny is quoted in the CA a couple of days AFTER the Tulsa loss, "“I honestly think it’s not about changing what we do. It’s just about understanding personnel", then out of the blue he now says we need to change the offense with no other game input??? That is not the expected thought progression of a coach in touch with the reality around him. And even the casual fan can easily see the lack of consistent, efficient offense since day one this season - and this with a high level of talent. And now I hear Penny may switch gears again. THE COACH NEEDS TO BE THE LEADER, HE HAS TO LEAD. This ain't leadership

He is admitting that it didn't work, understanding that he doesn't have the personnel to run what we are running, taking ownership and making the decision to go in a different direction; all hallmarks of good leadership.

Quote:That is not the expected thought progression of a coach in touch with the reality around him.

That's exactly what it is. If I'm Penny; before the season starts, I'm looking at this team and thinking that they can win running an NBA style offense. In theory, Boogie and Baugh as well as Lomax should have continued to improve as point guards.

In theory, DJ, Boogie, Williams and Nolley should be able to get their own shot. In theory, the offense should work. The failure is related to player evaluation. Penny and many others including myself, thought that the players were going to make huge improvements; they haven't.

In theory, Boogie and LQ become the deadeye outside shooters they were their whole lives, DJ shot 39% last year, and Williams shot 45.5% last year. Lomax didn't shoot a lot of them, but he hit a high enough percentage to keep defenses honest. We should be shooting well enough outside to open up the entire floor. Instead we are shooting 30.7% from outside. No offense works when that happens.

I'm excited about the changes IF we are actually going to see 5 players in motion. Boogie and Baugh should see the benefits immediately; that's what they need in order to excel. It should also help all of our players.

(12-29-2020 09:36 AM)SeñorTiger Wrote:  

(12-29-2020 09:06 AM)Atlanta Wrote:  Here's my frustration.....Penny is quoted in the CA a couple of days AFTER the Tulsa loss, "“I honestly think it’s not about changing what we do. It’s just about understanding personnel", then out of the blue he now says we need to change the offense with no other game input??? That is not the expected thought progression of a coach in touch with the reality around him. And even the casual fan can easily see the lack of consistent, efficient offense since day one this season - and this with a high level of talent. And now I hear Penny may switch gears again. THE COACH NEEDS TO BE THE LEADER, HE HAS TO LEAD. This ain't leadership

See, I do not understand this mindset at all.

Your idea of leadership is the driver refusing to admit the car is off the road and ultimately just driving off the cliff because LEADERS HAVE TO LEAD?

No, true leaders are constantly assessing, analyzing, critiquing and changing to circumstances and situations. True leaders admit when they have driven the bus off the road and then change course to get it back on track.

IMO this is the first time I have seen Penny show humility and true leadership by admitting his offense was terrible and making a change to try and get it fixed.

Everyone is focused on the first part of the video. The last two minutes is the most important. Penny, whether he realizes it or not, is admitting that he hasn't had the team ready the last two years, and didn't take the time to teach them anything.

Many of us have heard the rumblings about Penny's work ethic not being what it should. If anything, I think the biggest change is going to be that Penny will work harder and be more engaged with doing all of the little things that need to be done.

(12-29-2020 09:36 AM)SeñorTiger Wrote:  

(12-29-2020 09:06 AM)Atlanta Wrote:  Here's my frustration.....Penny is quoted in the CA a couple of days AFTER the Tulsa loss, "“I honestly think it’s not about changing what we do. It’s just about understanding personnel", then out of the blue he now says we need to change the offense with no other game input??? That is not the expected thought progression of a coach in touch with the reality around him. And even the casual fan can easily see the lack of consistent, efficient offense since day one this season - and this with a high level of talent. And now I hear Penny may switch gears again. THE COACH NEEDS TO BE THE LEADER, HE HAS TO LEAD. This ain't leadership

See, I do not understand this mindset at all.

Your idea of leadership is the driver refusing to admit the car is off the road and ultimately just driving off the cliff because LEADERS HAVE TO LEAD?

No, true leaders are constantly assessing, analyzing, critiquing and changing to circumstances and situations. True leaders admit when they have driven the bus off the road and then change course to get it back on track.

IMO this is the first time I have seen Penny show humility and true leadership by admitting his offense was terrible and making a change to try and get it fixed.

Absolutely nothing wrong with humility, honesty, critiquing in leadership. For sure it's an asset and should be expressed among those he is leading. It should not infer criticism on his asst coaches & players publicly - Penny is the head coach, he's responsible. But Penny has certainly inferred publicly his players don't execute & his assistants don't know what they are doing - all within days of the last game. And that along with the obvious under-performing on the court are actually a reflection on Penny's leadership & skill level as a coach & leader - and Penny has certainly not said "it's me." Instead, he tells the public after the Tulsa loss we don't need to make changes, players just need to execute, then within a couple of days says the asst coach runs the offense & it's not working so Penny will use another offense. So in a matter of days he says completely opposite things publicly & has managed to blame players & assistants in doing so BUT NOT BLAME HIMSELF. That is not good leadership under any circumstances & instead communicates to the public he doesn't know what he is doing.

(12-28-2020 09:35 PM)ncrdbl1 Wrote:  

(12-28-2020 08:55 PM)Alanda Wrote:  It's interesting that according to one of 247's more recent podcasts someone that watches the practices said they spent like 90% of practice on defense. So if true sounds like Toppert didn't have much opportunity for success to begin with.

This is even more telling since our biggest step back this year has been defensively.

dude
We are #13 in the country in defensive efficiency. Yes, we were #5 last year. But #13 isn't taking a "big step back" on anyone's scale.

(12-28-2020 10:40 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  Difference between Cal and Penny in this specific instance is...

Cal takes all the Credit and accepts all the blame...

lol
Cal accepting blame - that's cute.
He accepts blame by saying things like, "The players are selfish and not doing the right things. It's my fault because I haven't gotten the selfishness out of them yet."

It's true he doesn't mention his assistants. Most think that's a bad thing and a big reason why his assistants tend to fail in bigger jobs.

(12-29-2020 10:11 AM)mairving Wrote:  

(12-29-2020 09:36 AM)SeñorTiger Wrote:  

(12-29-2020 09:06 AM)Atlanta Wrote:  Here's my frustration.....Penny is quoted in the CA a couple of days AFTER the Tulsa loss, "“I honestly think it’s not about changing what we do. It’s just about understanding personnel", then out of the blue he now says we need to change the offense with no other game input??? That is not the expected thought progression of a coach in touch with the reality around him. And even the casual fan can easily see the lack of consistent, efficient offense since day one this season - and this with a high level of talent. And now I hear Penny may switch gears again. THE COACH NEEDS TO BE THE LEADER, HE HAS TO LEAD. This ain't leadership

See, I do not understand this mindset at all.

Your idea of leadership is the driver refusing to admit the car is off the road and ultimately just driving off the cliff because LEADERS HAVE TO LEAD?

No, true leaders are constantly assessing, analyzing, critiquing and changing to circumstances and situations. True leaders admit when they have driven the bus off the road and then change course to get it back on track.

IMO this is the first time I have seen Penny show humility and true leadership by admitting his offense was terrible and making a change to try and get it fixed.

I guess. To me it sounds like an excuse. Was the offense we were running that difficult to figure out? The problem was never the offense IMO, it was that the players weren't executing the offense. Four guys standing in the same spot a lot while the other guy dribbles around. You wouldn't think that would be the offense as Toppert designed it.

Back in the day I taught a nursing chemistry lab at Memphis. A student asked me a question and without thinking I gave an answer that wasn't correct. I looked up and every student was writing down what I just said. I had to correct myself. I think what Penny has yet to learn s that his words mean something and players take them to heart good or bad. You can't tell players and recruits all the time that you are going to get them to the NBA and then be surprised when they are selfish. You can't tell players that his team is going to be the fastest in the country and then expect them not to hurry shots. You can't tell Lance Thomas he's a stretch 4 and then be surprised if all he does is shoot 3's.

What you expressed to your class is what is expected of leadership. Express your mistakes to those you lead, not criticize the students if they believed your error or blame the mistake on others. Good for you.

(12-29-2020 01:06 AM)SeñorTiger Wrote:  This is a damned if Penny does and damned if Penny doesn't. If he does change the offense he has to admit the old system did not work and gets questioned why he ever ran it. If he doesn't change it then we all bemoan our horrible offense... With that in mind you can take the interview one of two ways, mainly negative or mainly positive.

Personally, I am giving Penny the benefit of the doubt here. I am much more encouraged that he recognized his very broken system (albeit very obvious), admitted it and is taking steps to correct it. That is pretty much what you want in leader when he sees his strategy is not working. The alternative if he refuse to admit its broken and continue running it.

Here is my summary of the interview
- It started off bad. He did basically take credit for the defense and then say he turned the offense over to Cody and it did not work and he (Penny) did not understand it enough to question Cody.
- He then basically blamed the players for playing for themselves and not for the team.
- Okay, had the interview ended after 2 or 3 minutes it would have been a disaster.
- As the interview, I thought he began expounding on the above and it became clear that he was not placing the blame on the players or Cody. I thought he actually accepted the blame for not stepping in quickly enough and not trusting himself and his offense enough to implement it.
- I also thought what he said about the team in South Dakota made a lot of sense. He clearly planned on Deandre being eligible by the first game and game planned accordingly. When they did not happen they basically went in unprepared. They also did not have time due to COVID to get all of their defensive presses and alignments in place.
- In the end it sounded like a 2nd or 3rd year head coach coming to the realization that he has some successes (defense) and has some failures (offense) and realizes them and is attempting to adjust accordingly. It is just my opinion but that is all you can really expect and hope for with a first time head coach only 2 seasons in...

I think there are two ways you can take the interview.

I have no issues with him changing the offense or the actions he is taking to fix it.

But some things need to stay internal...Especially when you are making 2 Million Dollars+ a year and your assistant likely doesn't make 1/10th of that.

(12-29-2020 11:36 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(12-29-2020 01:06 AM)SeñorTiger Wrote:  This is a damned if Penny does and damned if Penny doesn't. If he does change the offense he has to admit the old system did not work and gets questioned why he ever ran it. If he doesn't change it then we all bemoan our horrible offense... With that in mind you can take the interview one of two ways, mainly negative or mainly positive.

Personally, I am giving Penny the benefit of the doubt here. I am much more encouraged that he recognized his very broken system (albeit very obvious), admitted it and is taking steps to correct it. That is pretty much what you want in leader when he sees his strategy is not working. The alternative if he refuse to admit its broken and continue running it.

Here is my summary of the interview
- It started off bad. He did basically take credit for the defense and then say he turned the offense over to Cody and it did not work and he (Penny) did not understand it enough to question Cody.
- He then basically blamed the players for playing for themselves and not for the team.
- Okay, had the interview ended after 2 or 3 minutes it would have been a disaster.
- As the interview, I thought he began expounding on the above and it became clear that he was not placing the blame on the players or Cody. I thought he actually accepted the blame for not stepping in quickly enough and not trusting himself and his offense enough to implement it.
- I also thought what he said about the team in South Dakota made a lot of sense. He clearly planned on Deandre being eligible by the first game and game planned accordingly. When they did not happen they basically went in unprepared. They also did not have time due to COVID to get all of their defensive presses and alignments in place.
- In the end it sounded like a 2nd or 3rd year head coach coming to the realization that he has some successes (defense) and has some failures (offense) and realizes them and is attempting to adjust accordingly. It is just my opinion but that is all you can really expect and hope for with a first time head coach only 2 seasons in...

I think there are two ways you can take the interview.

I have no issues with him changing the offense or the actions he is taking to fix it.

But some things need to stay internal...Especially when you are making 2 Million Dollars+ a year and your assistant likely doesn't make 1/10th of that.

Exactly right, that's real leadership.

(12-28-2020 10:40 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  

(12-28-2020 09:31 PM)tkgrrett Wrote:  

(12-28-2020 09:00 PM)Stammers Wrote:  

(12-28-2020 07:38 PM)tkgrrett Wrote:  

(12-28-2020 07:12 PM)Stammers Wrote:  You would be thrown out of the room because you work at a company for people that are narrow minded, and unable to deviate from any concepts that differ from their own very limited scope.

Thankfully, successful companies don't see things the way you do. They would look at Penny and say that the fundamentals are there, the foundation has been built. Financials are in great shape, marketing is great, and most of the pieces are in place. They would look at the situation and see that they have invested so much money, and time and effort into Penny, and their approach would be to find a way to make it work; find a way for Penny to be successful.

Only idiots would just throw the team out of the room, with no attempt to pinpoint challenges and find solutions, with absolutely no backup plan. So, obviously it doesn't surprise me, that that is your vision. It fits perfectly with everything else you post.

Penny wanted an NBA blueprint and he hired an NBA guy universally recognized as bright and talented to help him. It hasn't worked. Time to admit the mistake and move on to Plan B.

You miss the point entirely - I would be thrown out regardless of "concepts" because that type of statement is obviously a failure of leadership. When you are the lead you dont blame a subordinate for something you delegated to them and you definitely dont say you didnt step in when you saw things were going south because you didnt feel comfortable.

What is the solution for a coach who allows things to continue to go wrong because he doesnt feel comfortable questioning a subordinate?

Missing the point? I'm repeating what you said; your warped view of what leadership is.

It was bad enough when you said that executives would throw the team out of the room. You don't even realize that you are making yourself sound much worse (which is almost impossible) by trying to explain yourself.

Quote:By the 2007–2008 basketball season, at least 224 junior high, high school, college, and professional teams were using some form of the Dribble drive motion.

Quote:During the 2012-2013 NBA Season the Denver Nuggets led by coach George Karl implemented a version of the dribble drive offense behind point guards Ty Lawson and Andre Miller, leading them to the highest ranked offense in the NBA by points scored, and the 3rd Seed in the Western Conference, while winning a franchise best 57 games.

First of all, probably at least 90% of all coaches at every level are using an offense and a defense that someone else invented. Cal modeled our offense after Vance Walberg's dribble drive and visited with Bobby Knight. There are almost no coaches that invent offenses. When they are successful, they get copied by others.

Second, Penny wanted to run an NBA offense, so he hired Toppert who ran clinics at the NBA combine. The move behind it made sense, but it doesn't work with our players.

Third, in your world, executives yell at subordinates and throw them out of a room. Then you comically make a comment about failure of leadership. Your real life example is the worst case of **** leadership imaginable. No wonder you turned out how you did.

Penny is showing leadership by being transparent, by taking full ownership of the offense, by admitting that the team hasn't been prepared and being critical of himself.

Dude.. you arent remotely as smart as you (for some reason) think you are.

First off, no one said anything about yelling and screaming. And for context, i work/have worked in leadership roles for some of the most prestigious professional services and tech firms on earth - not that it matters, leadership expectations are the same in your local walmart region. Expectation is that leaders come in prepared for criticism and have appropriate responses and reasonable action plans.

I'll keep this simple and ignore the random stuff you threw at at the wall. In general, when taking criticism regardless of context its frowned upon to blame it on delegating to a subordinate - even if its true. In general, when you say you had the answer for what was going wrong all along people wonder why you didnt act sooner. In general, a leader doesnt take credit for what was going right (defense) while passing blame for what was going wrong.

Im talking about leadership qualities and appropriate response in the context - the % of teams using dribble drive is irrelevant, nba blueprint is irrelevant. I love Penny and want him to be successful but there have been several times he sounds like a kid BSing his way through Speech class

Difference between Cal and Penny in this specific instance is...

Cal takes all the Credit and accepts all the blame...You rarely hear his assistants names. Now I don't necessarily agree with that. I think you throw praise at the people who work for you and shelter them from the fire...If they don't deserve shelter you get rid of them behind closed doors.

If you want to be right, just type the exact opposite of what you are thinking. Seriously.

(12-29-2020 10:41 AM)Atlanta Wrote:  

(12-29-2020 09:36 AM)SeñorTiger Wrote:  

(12-29-2020 09:06 AM)Atlanta Wrote:  Here's my frustration.....Penny is quoted in the CA a couple of days AFTER the Tulsa loss, "“I honestly think it’s not about changing what we do. It’s just about understanding personnel", then out of the blue he now says we need to change the offense with no other game input??? That is not the expected thought progression of a coach in touch with the reality around him. And even the casual fan can easily see the lack of consistent, efficient offense since day one this season - and this with a high level of talent. And now I hear Penny may switch gears again. THE COACH NEEDS TO BE THE LEADER, HE HAS TO LEAD. This ain't leadership

See, I do not understand this mindset at all.

Your idea of leadership is the driver refusing to admit the car is off the road and ultimately just driving off the cliff because LEADERS HAVE TO LEAD?

No, true leaders are constantly assessing, analyzing, critiquing and changing to circumstances and situations. True leaders admit when they have driven the bus off the road and then change course to get it back on track.

IMO this is the first time I have seen Penny show humility and true leadership by admitting his offense was terrible and making a change to try and get it fixed.

he doesn't know what he is doing.

Edited your post.

Be happy he is trying to make a change. What was going on before wasnt working. If he didn't make the change, people would be bitching too.

(12-29-2020 12:43 PM)criticallyill Wrote:  Be happy he is trying to make a change. What was going on before wasnt working. If he didn't make the change, people would be bitching too.

Amen brother. The ones that keep complaining about Penny are in for a long miserable ride. He will be our coach for at least 2 or 3 more years. So no need in getting all bent out of shape about it. Just hope he gets better at it.

(12-29-2020 12:43 PM)criticallyill Wrote:  Be happy he is trying to make a change. What was going on before wasnt working. If he didn't make the change, people would be bitching too.

I really can't imagine that having one guy dribble and the other players standing around was the way the offense was designed. The players weren't executing the offense. If we install a new offense I don't know why the results would be any different.

(12-29-2020 12:54 PM)mairving Wrote:  

(12-29-2020 12:43 PM)criticallyill Wrote:  Be happy he is trying to make a change. What was going on before wasnt working. If he didn't make the change, people would be bitching too.

I really can't imagine that having one guy dribble and the other players standing around was the way the offense was designed. The players weren't executing the offense. If we install a new offense I don't know why the results would be any different.

Yeah this team has had no movement for 2+ years and nothing was done about it. Now he is going to put in this great offense that he ran in AAU/high school that had all of this movement (I didn't see it when I saw East games but ok) that was so successful for 12 years. Despite that success it took him all of this time to see how badly movement was needed in college but now he is taking the bull(****) by the horns and changing all that.

This whole scenario literally makes no sense. Would have been better off just saying I need to be better and leave it at that.

Like I said originally...

We all wanted a change on the offense side and we are now getting it. Regardless of how it was communicated, we are getting what we want. Good.

But I do agree with Dwash (and others) it would have been much better for him to just say... "Our offense isnt getting it done, so we are making some changes. Give us a few games and you will see the difference." or something similar and leaving it like that.

(12-29-2020 01:34 PM)memtigbb Wrote:  Like I said originally...

We all wanted a change on the offense side and we are now getting it. Regardless of how it was communicated, we are getting what we want. Good.

But I do agree with Dwash (and others) it would have been much better for him to just say... "Our offense isnt getting it done, so we are making some changes. Give us a few games and you will see the difference." or something similar and leaving it like that.

Agreed.