Though something tells me you've already seen this...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/west-point-...ulus-exam/

Joking aside, the amount of online cheating has been off the charts since COVID forced so many classes online. It's going to be interesting to see what happens when students suddenly lose the chance to cheat as much as they have been.

USFFan

(12-22-2020 01:50 PM)usffan Wrote:  Though something tells me you've already seen this...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/west-point-...ulus-exam/

Joking aside, the amount of online cheating has been off the charts since COVID forced so many classes online. It's going to be interesting to see what happens when students suddenly lose the chance to cheat as much as they have been.

USFFan

Oh, I had...if you'll indulge me there's a lot to unpack here.

I no kidding, hit post on my first long-ish reply to the bronie, and it jumped onto my screen; I actually started editing, but decided it was not totally on target and backed out.

Supposedly some Army Old Grads were making noise about it prior to Army Navy, because it reportedly included football and gymnastics team members, and people were saying "coverup" Eh. For a sports-specific board, even if there were some plebe athletes among 'em, it doesn't cross the thresshold for me of win-at-football hurting the institution -- whereas those 2016 stories on Jackson and Bradshaw do.

So then you get to the USMA Honor Code. The story says most of those involved are now in an honor remediation program. This is the part where stuffy old grads start harrumphing and saying "back in MY day..." but there's something to it. I don't have any illusions that our admissions processes at the five academies (I'll throw in USCGA and USMMA, sure), which involve Congressional nominations, somehow successfully find the 4,000 pure of heart young Americans each year. Or that somehow a magical change takes place when they walk in on I-Day. I DO expect a lot more from a senior on the verge of being commissioned than a plebe. On yet another hand, end of second semester is like the old "not really a rookie at this point in the season."

The nature of the cheating comes into account. 73 test-takers having the same wrong answer. A much smaller number who had studied together might make the same mistake. And that is with or without having extensive files of past year tests/problems (not in and of itself, cheating).

You highlighted, I think, the spokes-Colonel's point that "it wouldn't have happened if it wasn't remote." At an Academy, is he saying the institution may be at fault for lack of Honor education, or our inability to get the remote testing right, so we will be more willing to use remediation instead of expulsion? Maybe, there's something to that.

Beyond the Academies, changing from in person to remote and back may indeed lead to problems. I honestly feel for these kids. THere have also been reports of the cheating detection software (counts eye movements and head movements) being just off base.

"May you live in interesting times" is not intended as a blessing.

(12-22-2020 04:25 PM)slhNavy91 Wrote:  

(12-22-2020 01:50 PM)usffan Wrote:  Though something tells me you've already seen this...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/west-point-...ulus-exam/

Joking aside, the amount of online cheating has been off the charts since COVID forced so many classes online. It's going to be interesting to see what happens when students suddenly lose the chance to cheat as much as they have been.

USFFan

Oh, I had...if you'll indulge me there's a lot to unpack here.

I no kidding, hit post on my first long-ish reply to the bronie, and it jumped onto my screen; I actually started editing, but decided it was not totally on target and backed out.

Supposedly some Army Old Grads were making noise about it prior to Army Navy, because it reportedly included football and gymnastics team members, and people were saying "coverup" Eh. For a sports-specific board, even if there were some plebe athletes among 'em, it doesn't cross the thresshold for me of win-at-football hurting the institution -- whereas those 2016 stories on Jackson and Bradshaw do.

So then you get to the USMA Honor Code. The story says most of those involved are now in an honor remediation program. This is the part where stuffy old grads start harrumphing and saying "back in MY day..." but there's something to it. I don't have any illusions that our admissions processes at the five academies (I'll throw in USCGA and USMMA, sure), which involve Congressional nominations, somehow successfully find the 4,000 pure of heart young Americans each year. Or that somehow a magical change takes place when they walk in on I-Day. I DO expect a lot more from a senior on the verge of being commissioned than a plebe. On yet another hand, end of second semester is like the old "not really a rookie at this point in the season."

The nature of the cheating comes into account. 73 test-takers having the same wrong answer. A much smaller number who had studied together might make the same mistake. And that is with or without having extensive files of past year tests/problems (not in and of itself, cheating).

You highlighted, I think, the spokes-Colonel's point that "it wouldn't have happened if it wasn't remote." At an Academy, is he saying the institution may be at fault for lack of Honor education, or our inability to get the remote testing right, so we will be more willing to use remediation instead of expulsion? Maybe, there's something to that.

Beyond the Academies, changing from in person to remote and back may indeed lead to problems. I honestly feel for these kids. THere have also been reports of the cheating detection software (counts eye movements and head movements) being just off base.

"May you live in interesting times" is not intended as a blessing.

This is total and complete bullshite. They should be tossed.

(12-22-2020 04:27 PM)shere khan Wrote:  

(12-22-2020 04:25 PM)slhNavy91 Wrote:  

(12-22-2020 01:50 PM)usffan Wrote:  Though something tells me you've already seen this...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/west-point-...ulus-exam/

Joking aside, the amount of online cheating has been off the charts since COVID forced so many classes online. It's going to be interesting to see what happens when students suddenly lose the chance to cheat as much as they have been.

USFFan

Oh, I had...if you'll indulge me there's a lot to unpack here.

I no kidding, hit post on my first long-ish reply to the bronie, and it jumped onto my screen; I actually started editing, but decided it was not totally on target and backed out.

Supposedly some Army Old Grads were making noise about it prior to Army Navy, because it reportedly included football and gymnastics team members, and people were saying "coverup" Eh. For a sports-specific board, even if there were some plebe athletes among 'em, it doesn't cross the thresshold for me of win-at-football hurting the institution -- whereas those 2016 stories on Jackson and Bradshaw do.

So then you get to the USMA Honor Code. The story says most of those involved are now in an honor remediation program. This is the part where stuffy old grads start harrumphing and saying "back in MY day..." but there's something to it. I don't have any illusions that our admissions processes at the five academies (I'll throw in USCGA and USMMA, sure), which involve Congressional nominations, somehow successfully find the 4,000 pure of heart young Americans each year. Or that somehow a magical change takes place when they walk in on I-Day. I DO expect a lot more from a senior on the verge of being commissioned than a plebe. On yet another hand, end of second semester is like the old "not really a rookie at this point in the season."

The nature of the cheating comes into account. 73 test-takers having the same wrong answer. A much smaller number who had studied together might make the same mistake. And that is with or without having extensive files of past year tests/problems (not in and of itself, cheating).

You highlighted, I think, the spokes-Colonel's point that "it wouldn't have happened if it wasn't remote." At an Academy, is he saying the institution may be at fault for lack of Honor education, or our inability to get the remote testing right, so we will be more willing to use remediation instead of expulsion? Maybe, there's something to that.

Beyond the Academies, changing from in person to remote and back may indeed lead to problems. I honestly feel for these kids. THere have also been reports of the cheating detection software (counts eye movements and head movements) being just off base.

"May you live in interesting times" is not intended as a blessing.

This is total and complete bullshite. They should be tossed.

Of, IF you know that they were exchanging answers during the exam, and that's how they all got the same wrong answer - absolutely.
If they were communicating during the test in any way, yup.

I don't have enough relevant details to make a statement like that.

(12-22-2020 04:25 PM)slhNavy91 Wrote:  

(12-22-2020 01:50 PM)usffan Wrote:  Though something tells me you've already seen this...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/west-point-...ulus-exam/

Joking aside, the amount of online cheating has been off the charts since COVID forced so many classes online. It's going to be interesting to see what happens when students suddenly lose the chance to cheat as much as they have been.

USFFan

And that is with or without having extensive files of past year tests/problems (not in and of itself, cheating).

If a professor were to learn that some of his students were doing better on a test because they had unauthorized access to the questions before taking the test, they should definitely consider that to be cheating, and take appropriate action.

Why? Because students without prior access to the questions would be penalized, as a result, and because a student who engages in such behavior can get good grades without doing the assigned reading or attending class.

On a navy ship, when there are examinations on gunnery, missile defense or any form of weapons use, and some of your senior officers have passed these exams because they stole the answers from previous tests, would you want to serve under them, knowing that your life could be put at risk because they didn't do their assigned reading?

Would your classmates at the academy be happy to serve under an commander who skimmed quickly through the reading material for a course on avoiding navigational errors in enemy waters during hurricane conditions, but passed the exam because all the questions were on file?

I think not.

No offense intended. You seem like a pretty solid guy, but somebody had to take the side of the professor in this discussion.

And here's why I'm glad I didn't work myself into high dudgeon over the Army Calc story...

https://thehill.com/policy/defense/navy/...sistencies

Far fewer details than the Army story. One important point: USNA story is from this semester - final would have been two weeks ago. West Point Story is from May.

(12-24-2020 11:01 PM)jedclampett Wrote:  

(12-22-2020 04:25 PM)slhNavy91 Wrote:  

(12-22-2020 01:50 PM)usffan Wrote:  Though something tells me you've already seen this...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/west-point-...ulus-exam/

Joking aside, the amount of online cheating has been off the charts since COVID forced so many classes online. It's going to be interesting to see what happens when students suddenly lose the chance to cheat as much as they have been.

USFFan

And that is with or without having extensive files of past year tests/problems (not in and of itself, cheating).

If a professor were to learn that some of his students were doing better on a test because they had unauthorized access to the questions before taking the test, they should definitely consider that to be cheating, and take appropriate action.

Why? Because students without prior access to the questions would be penalized, as a result, and because a student who engages in such behavior can get good grades without doing the assigned reading or attending class.

On a navy ship, when there are examinations on gunnery, missile defense or any form of weapons use, and some of your senior officers have passed these exams because they stole the answers from previous tests, would you want to serve under them, knowing that your life could be put at risk because they didn't do their assigned reading?

Would your classmates at the academy be happy to serve under an commander who skimmed quickly through the reading material for a course on avoiding navigational errors in enemy waters during hurricane conditions, but passed the exam because all the questions were on file?

I think not.

No offense intended. You seem like a pretty solid guy, but somebody had to take the side of the professor in this discussion.

Jed you do a very good job of highlighting why the Honor Concept (at USNA) or the Honor Code (at USMA) is so important to the Academies. It isn't just an academic exercise, or idealism. It is central to the mission of the institution, producing officers and leaders.

You have completely misread what I wrote though, in the line you clipped. You don't need to "take the side of the professor" because I haven't taken a side opposing him/her.

Having tests or other materials from ten and nine and eight years ago and working through the problems on them as your study method is akin to Patton being able to say "Rommel you magnificent bastard, I read your book!" Or Marko Ramius and Jack Ryan discussing having read each others' work. Not somehow having the current semester's test, which is pretty clear cut cheating.
Both the USMA Plebe Calc and the USNA Youngster Physics are core courses - the finals are developed centrally in the department, so you can't even expect to luck out because you have Prof Jones and have seen Prof Jones' previous year exam questions.

From the details of the West Point story, 73 students had the same wrong answer. It sounds like they are saying there was illicit communication during the remotely administered exam. That, too, is pretty clear cut.

Have a Merry Christmas