(12-26-2020 08:00 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(12-25-2020 11:51 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(12-23-2020 08:35 AM)schmolik Wrote:  Baylor actually topped TCU's list. I think they were still bitter about them keeping them out of the Big 12 for many years.

Baylor-TCU has been played 116 times, or the same as Texas-OU. The rivalry began when both schools were located in Waco.

https://www.baylor.edu/students/gameday/...?id=936869

I think the data shows there is still a lot of significant "rivalry" among former SWC schools. Texas and Texas A&M have clearly outgrown them but maybe a conference of the other six wouldn't be so bad (and Arkansas seems overmatched in the SEC so make it seven, add UTEP and North Texas for a conference of nine, maybe even Oklahoma State for ten?)

I would take out UTEP and replace them with UTSA, since UTEP should be in the Mountain West.

(12-23-2020 08:35 AM)schmolik Wrote:  This was on the SEC board so I wanted to share with the main CSNBBS board.

https://knowrivalry.com/category/ncaaf/

I took the survey with Illinois and then looked at their results as well as the results of all of the P5 teams. They also have all of the professional leagues as well.

The scores are out of 100 and are based on this scale:
https://knowrivalry.com/about/

"Rivalry Points: The survey asked respondents to allocate 100 “rivalry points” across opponents of his or her favorite team. For instance, if John’s favorite team is the Springfield Isotopes, he may choose to allocate 60 points to the Shelbyvillians, whom he considers to be the Isotopes’s strongest rival, 30 points to the Norsemen, another opposing team he considers to be a rival of the Isotopes, and 10 points to the Woodchucks, a third opponent. Maria is another Isoptopes fan, and she chooses to allocate all 100 points to the Norsemen, the only team she considers to be a rival.

The rivalry score is calculated by taking the average point total toward a rival from all a team’s respondents. The maximum rivalry score is 100, which would mean all respondents listed that team as the lone rival. In our example above, the rivalry score for the Norsemen would be 65, which is the average of John’s 30 points and Maria’s 100 points (Shelbyvillians = 30 points, Woodchucks = 5 points).

The rivalry dyad score (or ‘aggregate score’) is calculated by adding respondents’ average rivalry score toward a particular opponent to the opposing average score of that opponent’s fans. In our example above, if the Norsemen fans held a rivalry score of 50 for the Isotopes, the rivalry dyad score for Isotopes-Norseman would be 115 (65 from Isotopes fans toward the Norseman, and 50 from the Norseman toward the Isotopes)."

Top score(s) from each team (I will list significant second/third place teams):

Big Ten:

Ohio State: Duh! Michigan (90.71)
Michigan: Duh! Ohio State (68.84). Michigan State (16.83)
Penn State: Ohio State (37.43), Pittsburgh (25.41), Michigan (19.22)
Wisconsin: Minnesota (41.97), Ohio State (20.17), Iowa (16.17)
Illinois: Northwestern (46.00)
Michigan State: Michigan (66.75), Notre Dame (18.85)
Indiana: Purdue (74.30)
Purdue: Indiana (54.27), Notre Dame (34.30)
Iowa: Iowa State (29.71), Wisconsin (23.83), Minnesota (16.33), Nebraska (15.13)
Minnesota: Wisconsin (54.23), Iowa (36.45)
Rutgers: CONNECTICUT (I'm not making this up!) (22.15). Syracuse (20.45), Penn State (17.30), Louisville (16.25)
Nebraska: Oklahoma (36.82), Wisconsin (21.20)
Northwestern: Illinois (50.78), Iowa (27.67)
There is "not enough data" for Maryland so Maryland fans should submit surveys!

You can measure a rivalry on both sides by adding the scores. For example, Ohio State/Michigan is 90.71+68.84 for a total of 159.55. The maximum score is 200. Obviously there are a significant portion of Michigan fans that think the in state rivalry is more important but the OSU/Michigan rivalry is the biggest rivalry in the Big Ten. Purdue/Indiana (128.57) is 2nd. Both Illinois and Northwestern and Wisconsin and Northwestern list each other as their biggest rivals. I've said Iowa and Nebraska belong in the Big 12. Their fans both selected Big 12 teams as their biggest rivals (Iowa not as much a margin as Nebraska). At least Penn State picked a Big Ten team as their #1. Rutgers? I'm not sure they even know what conference they belong in.

ACC:

Notre Dame: USC (58.24), Michigan (24.46)
Florida State: Florida (53.76), Miami (29.74), Clemson (14.55)
Miami: Florida State (54.38), Florida (22.56)
Clemson: South Carolina (73.56), Florida State (12.94)
Georgia Tech: Georgia (67.67), Clemson (16.41)
North Carolina: NC State (39.79), Duke (34.00), Virginia (7.47)
NC State: North Carolina (66.43)
Duke: North Carolina (84.38)
Virginia: Virginia Tech (60.68), North Carolina (24.77), Maryland (10.37)
Virginia Tech: Virginia (53.45), Miami (21.09), West Virginia (8.51)
Boston College: Notre Dame (74.17)
Louisville: Kentucky (71.09), Cincinnati (17.07)
Pittsburgh: West Virginia (44.17), Penn State (32.50), Notre Dame (15.00)
Syracuse, Wake Forest: Not enough data

I'm ashamed Penn State isn't Pittsburgh's biggest rival.
Out of 12 full football members with enough data, only 6 of them (the Virginia and North Carolina schools and Miami) have a conference member as their top rival. Florida State, Clemson, Georgia Tech, and Louisville all chose their SEC in state rival, Pittsburgh chose their nearby rival, and Boston College chose Notre Dame. The obvious disclaimer is this is football otherwise North Carolina's score would be Duke close to 100.

SEC:

Alabama: Auburn (48.21) (Surprisingly low!), Tennessee (25.42), LSU (19.84)
Florida: Florida State (38.78), Georgia (34.39), Tennessee (10.83)
Georgia: Florida (40.94), Georgia Tech (20.81), Auburn (20.34)
LSU: Alabama (49.64), Mississippi (13.07), Florida (11.07), Arkansas (10.29), Texas A&M (7.50)
Texas A&M: Texas (44.54), LSU (22.81), Alabama (17.56)
Auburn: Alabama (66.78), Georgia (21.16)
Tennessee: Alabama (48.37), Florida (27.42)
Kentucky: Louisville (56.40), Tennessee (56.40)
South Carolina: Clemson (67.29), Georgia (20.17)
Vanderbilt: Tennessee (72.82), Mississippi (12.25)
Mississippi: Mississippi State (45.02), LSU (44.85) - This is really close!
Mississippi State: Mississippi (78.22), Alabama (10.91)
Arkansas: LSU (35.31), Texas (22.50)
Missouri: Kansas (71.58), Arkansas (9.56)

Texas A&M and Missouri really haven't warmed to the SEC yet. Texas A&M still hates Texas more than anyone else, Missouri really hates Kansas (although I don't know why as they suck).

Like the ACC side, Florida's and South Carolina's biggest rivals are their ACC in state rivals. In South Carolina's case, it is Clemson by far. But in Florida's case it is pretty close between Florida State and Georgia as the Florida-Georgia rival is huge in the SEC. In fact, Georgia's biggest rival is Florida, the Gators got almost double the rivalry points as Georgia Tech.

There are some cases of "little brother" here. Mississippi State's is clearly Mississippi. Mississippi's is Mississippi State but it's really close. I didn't even know Mississippi-LSU was a rivalry. Actually that's a "little brother" to LSU although 13.07 for LSU towards Mississippi isn't insignificant. Vanderbilt definitely sees UT as their rival. Tennessee couldn't care less about Vandy. They gave VU just 7.66. The Vols gave Georgia 9.98. Tennessee should be a little brother to Alabama although somehow Alabama gave UT 25.42 rivalry points. If anyone should be 2nd to Auburn for 'Bama, it should be LSU after the games the last few years (this survey started in 2014). The last time Tennessee was relevant Peyton was still there (well they did win the national championship the year after they left but close enough).

Pac-12:

UCLA: USC (80.48), Cal (10.00)
USC: Notre Dame (45.37), UCLA (36.35)
Cal: Stanford (58.24), USC (20.59), UCLA (16.47)
Stanford: Cal (49.17), USC (26.94), Oregon (11.11)
Oregon: Washington (46.97), Oregon State (32.31)
Washington: Oregon (56.92), Washington State (28.62)
Arizona: Arizona State (89.25)
Arizona State: Arizona (82.51)
Colorado: Nebraska (48.11), Colorado State (21.59), Utah (10.44)
Utah: BYU (67.42), Colorado (10.64), Utah State (9.94)
Oregon State: Oregon (80.67)
Washington State: Washington (64.89)

No doubt Oregon State and Washington State are the little brothers. Based on numbers, you can say UCLA is USC's little brother as well ironically although the gap between UCLA and Notre Dame isn't as far as the gap between Oregon State and Washington and Oregon and Washington State (almost double the rivalry points!) If Oregon State and Washington State left the Pac-12, no one would miss them. Oregon and Washington would just play each other rivalry weekend. By contrast, Arizona and Arizona State are a real rivalry as both gave each other over 80 rivalry points. In fact, the two combined for 171.76 points, more than Michigan/Ohio State and more than any pair they surveyed.

Utah and Colorado obviously haven't warmed to the Pac-12 yet. Colorado gave Nebraska 48.11 points but Nebraska only gave them 5.01 points. You could say they don't belong in the Pac-12 but then where do they belong?

Big 12:

Texas: Oklahoma (65.17), Texas A&M (22.45), Texas Tech (5.12), No one else got more than 2 points
Oklahoma: Texas (65.62), Oklahoma State (17.71), Nebraska (15.76)
Oklahoma State: Oklahoma (71.57). Texas (12.39)
Texas Tech: Texas (36.67), Texas A&M (20.00), TCU (16.28), Baylor (11.78)
TCU: Baylor (30.06), SMU (23.18), Texas (20.39), Texas Tech (17.67)
Baylor: Texas (29.44), TCU (29.19), Texas A&M (24.59). Texas Tech (13.22)
West Virginia: Pittsburgh (59.25), Virginia Tech (18.72). The highest Big 12 team is Oklahoma (2.64, in SIXTH place!)
Kansas: Missouri (59.94), Kansas State (29.06)
Kansas State: Kansas (54.31), Texas (14.88)
Iowa State: Iowa (70.28), Kansas State (16.13)

Definitely a lot of little brothers here (Oklahoma State, Kansas State, every Texas school other than Texas, Iowa State, although by a slim margin Iowa's #1 rival is Iowa State).

Texas A&M still appears not only on Texas's list but also Texas Tech's and Baylor's lists, getting 20 or more rivalry points from each school. Baylor actually topped TCU's list. I think they were still bitter about them keeping them out of the Big 12 for many years.

I don't think there is any P5 team that doesn't belong in their conference more than West Virginia as their top FIVE choices were non conference teams. By the way, one of the five teams that got more rivalry points than Oklahoma (and Texas)? MARSHALL!

Top 10 Pairs (Highest Combined Score):
10. Kentucky-Louisville
9. Indiana-Purdue
8. Oklahoma-Texas
7. Kansas-Missouri
6. Clemson-South Carolina
5. Western Michigan-Central Michigan??? (Didn't know who in the MAC was rivals to whom)
4. Utah-BYU
3. Another MAC! Toledo-Bowling Green State
2. Michigan-Ohio State
1. Arizona-Arizona State

Half of these pairs aren't in the same conference.

Good post. However, the extensive
"little brother" labeling is opinionated and rather unnecessary.

(12-26-2020 08:00 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(12-25-2020 11:51 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(12-23-2020 08:35 AM)schmolik Wrote:  Baylor actually topped TCU's list. I think they were still bitter about them keeping them out of the Big 12 for many years.

Baylor-TCU has been played 116 times, or the same as Texas-OU. The rivalry began when both schools were located in Waco.

https://www.baylor.edu/students/gameday/...?id=936869

And TCU is fairly high up on Baylor's list but Texas is #just barely #1 (Texas (29.44), TCU (29.19)). For TCU, it's very significantly Baylor although 30.06 isn't a ringing endorsement of them being the biggest rival either.

It's interesting studying the Texas schools.

UT clearly finds Oklahoma (65.17) it's biggest rival now and the feeling is mutual (65.62). A&M is still in the ballpark (22.45). Texas Tech is barely relevant (5.12).

A&M still thinks of Texas (44.54) as it's biggest rival despite not playing since 2012. LSU is their biggest SEC rival but they trail with 22.81 pts. Texas Tech got just 4.18 points, trailing LSU, Alabama, and Arkansas. Baylor got 3.36 pts. and no other Texas school got any more than 0.08 pts.

I'd say Texas and Texas A&M barely find any of the other Texas schools relevant. Little brother? I'd say the other Texas schools are distant cousins to them now.

As for the distant cousins...

Texas Tech aspires to be in the same level as the big two (Texas (36.67), Texas A&M (20.00)) but of course you can see what Texas and Texas A&M think of Tech. Now the administration of Texas and the Texas legislators can defend Texas Tech but if it were up to the fans, Texas would leave Texas Tech behind like a bad habit. TCU (16.28) and Baylor (11.78) trail so there are TTU fans that have realistic expectations.

Likewise, Baylor has the group who wants to rub elbows with the big dogs (Texas 29.44, A&M 24.59) and those who know their place (TCU 29.19, Texas Tech 13.22).

Then over at TCU, they have a fairly large group that shoots for the moon when it comes to Texas (20.39) but almost nobody said Texas A&M (0.91), most likely because TCU and Texas A&M were never in the Big 12 at the same time.

As for the other former SWC schools,

SMU fans are completely realistic. Texas only got 5.50 pts and Texas A&M only got 5.43 pts. Then again, the #1 school by far is TCU with 54.07 pts and TCU is in the Big 12 while SMU is in the AAC. SMU-TCU is an annual game though (except for this past season for COVID-19).

Rice's #1 rival is Houston (45.92), followed by Texas??? (19.44) and SMU (10.00) and Texas A&M??? (8.80). Rice rivals with Texas and Texas A&M?? I thought Rice was for smart students!

There isn't enough data for Houston.

I think the data shows there is still a lot of significant "rivalry" among former SWC schools. Texas and Texas A&M have clearly outgrown them but maybe a conference of the other six wouldn't be so bad (and Arkansas seems overmatched in the SEC so make it seven, add UTEP and North Texas for a conference of nine, maybe even Oklahoma State for ten?)

I can explain.

1. Baylor-TCU is an old series but historically not considered a rivalry by Baylor fans. TCU kinda sparked the rivalry when they were outside the Big 12 and doing very well. TCU fans are part of a group that blame Baylor for their exclusion from the Big 12 (TCU, SMU, Houston, and BYU all think the their teams would have been BUT FOR Baylor and have vitriol towards Baylor regarding this snub. Baylor fans largely have to put up with it, and that is made more difficult by Baylor’s early struggles in the Big 12 and scandals deemed them “unworthy” in the eyes of many.) So there is some back and forth with those schools about it, TCU chief among them and Houston following closely behind now. This is in part spurred by the chip-on-the-shoulder mindset that many G5 programs have. Outside of that, Baylor fans did not care about TCU or the other teams in any significant manner besides being old SWC foes. The rivalry with TCU has only recently been a mutually embraced thing as both schools are very similar in student body make-up, size, and general success. TCU’s primary rivalry is historically SMU who they have a cross-town type rivalry with. That has waned for TCU since coming to the Big 12 and their fans are replacing those feelings with Baylor. I enjoy this rivalry as I think games make for a better viewing interest when teams and fans have more on the line than just a W/L.

2. Baylor’s historic #1 primary rival is Texas A&M.
Baylor, Texas, and Texas A&M are in a close geographic proximity and have a shared history for a long time. This rivalry has soured and warned during realignment with many new Baylor alumni and fans not recognizing it in favor of TCU. Aggies have also grown into the SEC and are trying to embrace LSU for rivalry purposes. For Aggies, the Baylor series was probably the 2nd or 3rd most important rivalry on their schedule in the SWC and Big 12 era. It varied based on what Tech was doing, but everyone was distant relative to the place Texas has in A&Ms heart. But in terms of basketball series and football series, I’ve not seen any games (outside of some TCU football games) as toxic as the Baylor-TAMU games. The series even had a name, Battle of the Brazos which has had deaths and the Texas rangers mythically pulling up railroad tracks to prevent the shelling of Waco. It was an important series for both programs. Texas is considered a “rival” based on proximity and history not on competitiveness or vitriol. Baylor fans are also aware that our rivalry with Texas and TAMU are far down the list of Texas and A&M and we are okay with that. After the Aggies left, more alums have embraced Texas as primary rival. It’s a pretty good series generally because it is easy for both fanbases to travel between Austin and Waco, and you usually see pretty good representation from both fanbases at the Football, Basketball, and Baseball games.

3. Tech is a bit of a red headed step-child. They joined the SWC in 1950s almost 30 years after the conference formed and everyone had been playing each other regularly almost 50 years. They are important and belong but they were never able to establish true mutual rivalry with anyone who more or less felt the same. Baylor was in the same boat for most of its existence and only recently has developed one with TCU.

(12-26-2020 08:00 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(12-25-2020 11:51 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(12-23-2020 08:35 AM)schmolik Wrote:  Baylor actually topped TCU's list. I think they were still bitter about them keeping them out of the Big 12 for many years.

Baylor-TCU has been played 116 times, or the same as Texas-OU. The rivalry began when both schools were located in Waco.

https://www.baylor.edu/students/gameday/...?id=936869

And TCU is fairly high up on Baylor's list but Texas is #just barely #1 (Texas (29.44), TCU (29.19)). For TCU, it's very significantly Baylor although 30.06 isn't a ringing endorsement of them being the biggest rival either.

It's interesting studying the Texas schools.

UT clearly finds Oklahoma (65.17) it's biggest rival now and the feeling is mutual (65.62). A&M is still in the ballpark (22.45). Texas Tech is barely relevant (5.12).

A&M still thinks of Texas (44.54) as it's biggest rival despite not playing since 2012. LSU is their biggest SEC rival but they trail with 22.81 pts. Texas Tech got just 4.18 points, trailing LSU, Alabama, and Arkansas. Baylor got 3.36 pts. and no other Texas school got any more than 0.08 pts.

I'd say Texas and Texas A&M barely find any of the other Texas schools relevant. Little brother? I'd say the other Texas schools are distant cousins to them now.

As for the distant cousins...

Texas Tech aspires to be in the same level as the big two (Texas (36.67), Texas A&M (20.00)) but of course you can see what Texas and Texas A&M think of Tech. Now the administration of Texas and the Texas legislators can defend Texas Tech but if it were up to the fans, Texas would leave Texas Tech behind like a bad habit. TCU (16.28) and Baylor (11.78) trail so there are TTU fans that have realistic expectations.

Likewise, Baylor has the group who wants to rub elbows with the big dogs (Texas 29.44, A&M 24.59) and those who know their place (TCU 29.19, Texas Tech 13.22).

Then over at TCU, they have a fairly large group that shoots for the moon when it comes to Texas (20.39) but almost nobody said Texas A&M (0.91), most likely because TCU and Texas A&M were never in the Big 12 at the same time.

As for the other former SWC schools,

SMU fans are completely realistic. Texas only got 5.50 pts and Texas A&M only got 5.43 pts. Then again, the #1 school by far is TCU with 54.07 pts and TCU is in the Big 12 while SMU is in the AAC. SMU-TCU is an annual game though (except for this past season for COVID-19).

Rice's #1 rival is Houston (45.92), followed by Texas??? (19.44) and SMU (10.00) and Texas A&M??? (8.80). Rice rivals with Texas and Texas A&M?? I thought Rice was for smart students!

There isn't enough data for Houston.

I think the data shows there is still a lot of significant "rivalry" among former SWC schools. Texas and Texas A&M have clearly outgrown them but maybe a conference of the other six wouldn't be so bad (and Arkansas seems overmatched in the SEC so make it seven, add UTEP and North Texas for a conference of nine, maybe even Oklahoma State for ten?)

One thing that I really feel like Texas Tech should do is really raise its university profile. Currently, what it looks like to me is that they are trying to compete with Texas A&M on everything and that really is hurting Texas Tech in the long run, IMO. I feel like what Texas Tech should do is to aim to be the premier engineering school in Texas--ie. be to the state of Texas what the Georgia Institute of Technology is to the state of Georgia.

If TTU does that, again IMO, I feel like that the University of Texas would definitely want them as a conference mate.

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

(12-26-2020 09:15 AM)OdinFrigg Wrote:  

(12-23-2020 08:35 AM)schmolik Wrote:  Big 12:

Texas: Oklahoma (65.17), Texas A&M (22.45), Texas Tech (5.12), No one else got more than 2 points
Oklahoma: Texas (65.62), Oklahoma State (17.71), Nebraska (15.76)
Oklahoma State: Oklahoma (71.57). Texas (12.39)

Good post. However, the extensive
"little brother" labeling is opinionated and rather unnecessary.

Oklahoma State fans see Oklahoma as their biggest rival. But Oklahoma fans see Texas as their biggest rival and Oklahoma State as a distant second. This is opinionated but based on the opinions of a lot of Oklahoma fans. This isn't the only school groups where this phenomenon occurs. Not every rivalry pair is like Ohio State-Michigan or Arizona-Arizona State. If you don't like the name "little brother", what do you prefer it be called? Many of the other Texas schools want to think UT is their rival but Texas doesn't think any Texas school is their rival except possibly A&M and they feel their real rival is Oklahoma (and the feeling's mutual).

(12-26-2020 11:18 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(12-26-2020 08:00 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(12-25-2020 11:51 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(12-23-2020 08:35 AM)schmolik Wrote:  Baylor actually topped TCU's list. I think they were still bitter about them keeping them out of the Big 12 for many years.

Baylor-TCU has been played 116 times, or the same as Texas-OU. The rivalry began when both schools were located in Waco.

https://www.baylor.edu/students/gameday/...?id=936869

And TCU is fairly high up on Baylor's list but Texas is #just barely #1 (Texas (29.44), TCU (29.19)). For TCU, it's very significantly Baylor although 30.06 isn't a ringing endorsement of them being the biggest rival either.

It's interesting studying the Texas schools.

UT clearly finds Oklahoma (65.17) it's biggest rival now and the feeling is mutual (65.62). A&M is still in the ballpark (22.45). Texas Tech is barely relevant (5.12).

A&M still thinks of Texas (44.54) as it's biggest rival despite not playing since 2012. LSU is their biggest SEC rival but they trail with 22.81 pts. Texas Tech got just 4.18 points, trailing LSU, Alabama, and Arkansas. Baylor got 3.36 pts. and no other Texas school got any more than 0.08 pts.

I'd say Texas and Texas A&M barely find any of the other Texas schools relevant. Little brother? I'd say the other Texas schools are distant cousins to them now.

As for the distant cousins...

Texas Tech aspires to be in the same level as the big two (Texas (36.67), Texas A&M (20.00)) but of course you can see what Texas and Texas A&M think of Tech. Now the administration of Texas and the Texas legislators can defend Texas Tech but if it were up to the fans, Texas would leave Texas Tech behind like a bad habit. TCU (16.28) and Baylor (11.78) trail so there are TTU fans that have realistic expectations.

Likewise, Baylor has the group who wants to rub elbows with the big dogs (Texas 29.44, A&M 24.59) and those who know their place (TCU 29.19, Texas Tech 13.22).

Then over at TCU, they have a fairly large group that shoots for the moon when it comes to Texas (20.39) but almost nobody said Texas A&M (0.91), most likely because TCU and Texas A&M were never in the Big 12 at the same time.

As for the other former SWC schools,

SMU fans are completely realistic. Texas only got 5.50 pts and Texas A&M only got 5.43 pts. Then again, the #1 school by far is TCU with 54.07 pts and TCU is in the Big 12 while SMU is in the AAC. SMU-TCU is an annual game though (except for this past season for COVID-19).

Rice's #1 rival is Houston (45.92), followed by Texas??? (19.44) and SMU (10.00) and Texas A&M??? (8.80). Rice rivals with Texas and Texas A&M?? I thought Rice was for smart students!

There isn't enough data for Houston.

I think the data shows there is still a lot of significant "rivalry" among former SWC schools. Texas and Texas A&M have clearly outgrown them but maybe a conference of the other six wouldn't be so bad (and Arkansas seems overmatched in the SEC so make it seven, add UTEP and North Texas for a conference of nine, maybe even Oklahoma State for ten?)

One thing that I really feel like Texas Tech should do is really raise its university profile. Currently, what it looks like to me is that they are trying to compete with Texas A&M on everything and that really is hurting Texas Tech in the long run, IMO. I feel like what Texas Tech should do is to aim to be the premier engineering school in Texas--ie. be to the state of Texas what the Georgia Institute of Technology is to the state of Georgia.

If TTU does that, again IMO, I feel like that the University of Texas would definitely want them as a conference mate.

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk

And Troy should try to become the premier school in the Southeast!

Texas and Texas A&M are both generally rated in the top 10 engineering schools in the country, similar to Georgia Tech. Texas Tech cannot get there. Besides, they are in Lubbock.

An Arizona St. is a better goal. Simply be the best they can be knowing they have limits.

(12-26-2020 11:53 AM)bullet Wrote:  Texas and Texas A&M are both generally rated in the top 10 engineering schools in the country, similar to Georgia Tech. Texas Tech cannot get there. Besides, they are in Lubbock.

An Arizona St. is a better goal. Simply be the best they can be knowing they have limits.

Of course the problem with being Arizona St. is, as you said, they're in Lubbock. Arizona St. is in the Phoenix metropolitan area. The reason they work in Arizona is if you live in Phoenix the "____ State" is in your hometown so unlike in Oklahoma, Michigan, Washington, Oregon, Kansas, etc, it is not clear that the "University of _____" is the first choice. Texas Tech isn't just a second choice school, they're a third choice school (and maybe not even because of the University of Houston). Then again, being third in Texas is probably better than being second in a lot of smaller states. Not everyone can get into UT or A&M.

(12-26-2020 11:53 AM)bullet Wrote:  

(12-26-2020 11:18 AM)DawgNBama Wrote:  

(12-26-2020 08:00 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(12-25-2020 11:51 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  

(12-23-2020 08:35 AM)schmolik Wrote:  Baylor actually topped TCU's list. I think they were still bitter about them keeping them out of the Big 12 for many years.

Baylor-TCU has been played 116 times, or the same as Texas-OU. The rivalry began when both schools were located in Waco.

https://www.baylor.edu/students/gameday/...?id=936869

And TCU is fairly high up on Baylor's list but Texas is #just barely #1 (Texas (29.44), TCU (29.19)). For TCU, it's very significantly Baylor although 30.06 isn't a ringing endorsement of them being the biggest rival either.

It's interesting studying the Texas schools.

UT clearly finds Oklahoma (65.17) it's biggest rival now and the feeling is mutual (65.62). A&M is still in the ballpark (22.45). Texas Tech is barely relevant (5.12).

A&M still thinks of Texas (44.54) as it's biggest rival despite not playing since 2012. LSU is their biggest SEC rival but they trail with 22.81 pts. Texas Tech got just 4.18 points, trailing LSU, Alabama, and Arkansas. Baylor got 3.36 pts. and no other Texas school got any more than 0.08 pts.

I'd say Texas and Texas A&M barely find any of the other Texas schools relevant. Little brother? I'd say the other Texas schools are distant cousins to them now.

As for the distant cousins...

Texas Tech aspires to be in the same level as the big two (Texas (36.67), Texas A&M (20.00)) but of course you can see what Texas and Texas A&M think of Tech. Now the administration of Texas and the Texas legislators can defend Texas Tech but if it were up to the fans, Texas would leave Texas Tech behind like a bad habit. TCU (16.28) and Baylor (11.78) trail so there are TTU fans that have realistic expectations.

Likewise, Baylor has the group who wants to rub elbows with the big dogs (Texas 29.44, A&M 24.59) and those who know their place (TCU 29.19, Texas Tech 13.22).

Then over at TCU, they have a fairly large group that shoots for the moon when it comes to Texas (20.39) but almost nobody said Texas A&M (0.91), most likely because TCU and Texas A&M were never in the Big 12 at the same time.

As for the other former SWC schools,

SMU fans are completely realistic. Texas only got 5.50 pts and Texas A&M only got 5.43 pts. Then again, the #1 school by far is TCU with 54.07 pts and TCU is in the Big 12 while SMU is in the AAC. SMU-TCU is an annual game though (except for this past season for COVID-19).

Rice's #1 rival is Houston (45.92), followed by Texas??? (19.44) and SMU (10.00) and Texas A&M??? (8.80). Rice rivals with Texas and Texas A&M?? I thought Rice was for smart students!

There isn't enough data for Houston.

I think the data shows there is still a lot of significant "rivalry" among former SWC schools. Texas and Texas A&M have clearly outgrown them but maybe a conference of the other six wouldn't be so bad (and Arkansas seems overmatched in the SEC so make it seven, add UTEP and North Texas for a conference of nine, maybe even Oklahoma State for ten?)

One thing that I really feel like Texas Tech should do is really raise its university profile. Currently, what it looks like to me is that they are trying to compete with Texas A&M on everything and that really is hurting Texas Tech in the long run, IMO. I feel like what Texas Tech should do is to aim to be the premier engineering school in Texas--ie. be to the state of Texas what the Georgia Institute of Technology is to the state of Georgia.

If TTU does that, again IMO, I feel like that the University of Texas would definitely want them as a conference mate.

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And Troy should try to become the premier school in the Southeast!

Texas and Texas A&M are both generally rated in the top 10 engineering schools in the country, similar to Georgia Tech. Texas Tech cannot get there. Besides, they are in Lubbock.

An Arizona St. is a better goal. Simply be the best they can be knowing they have limits.

That's amazing that Texas and Texas A&M are rated that high, considering their size and mission. I always viewed Texas A&M as being a lot like Auburn-good in engineering, but not really their strong point. And I have viewed Texas as a sort of a Georgia/Florida/Alabama hybrid. I never knew Texas was well known for its engineering; I always thought Texas was known for its medical expertise and law school, in addition to being a very strong liberal arts school. Thank you Bullet; you have taught me something. Btw, Troy should always strive to be the best it can be (my alma mater Montevallo is better than Troy when it comes to academics), but the best school in the southeast will probably be Georgia Tech for a very long time (yes, I would say that GT is superior to North Carolina and Virginia) and I am saying this as a University of Georgia fan.

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Texas is like the Big 10 schools. Enormous and outstanding in a large number of disciplines, especially graduate schools. Somewhere a few years back I saw a list showing the number of ranked programs in various universities. Texas was near the top of the list with nearly 40. Cal, UCLA, a half dozen Big 10 schools, Harvard and a few others were in that same general range.

Texas A&M is among the top schools in agriculture, veterinary medicine and top 10 in engineering as well. Those have always been their strengths. They have improved in others as Texas got harder to get into and A&M grew

UT Dallas has specialized. They are very strong in IT. They really were started as an aid to nearby Texas Instruments. They may have the highest grades and scores of their freshman class among Texas public schools.

(12-26-2020 11:46 AM)schmolik Wrote:  

(12-26-2020 09:15 AM)OdinFrigg Wrote:  

(12-23-2020 08:35 AM)schmolik Wrote:  Big 12:

Texas: Oklahoma (65.17), Texas A&M (22.45), Texas Tech (5.12), No one else got more than 2 points
Oklahoma: Texas (65.62), Oklahoma State (17.71), Nebraska (15.76)
Oklahoma State: Oklahoma (71.57). Texas (12.39)

Good post. However, the extensive
"little brother" labeling is opinionated and rather unnecessary.

Oklahoma State fans see Oklahoma as their biggest rival. But Oklahoma fans see Texas as their biggest rival and Oklahoma State as a distant second. This is opinionated but based on the opinions of a lot of Oklahoma fans. This isn't the only school groups where this phenomenon occurs. Not every rivalry pair is like Ohio State-Michigan or Arizona-Arizona State. If you don't like the name "little brother", what do you prefer it be called? Many of the other Texas schools want to think UT is their rival but Texas doesn't think any Texas school is their rival except possibly A&M and they feel their real rival is Oklahoma (and the feeling's mutual).

It is an interesting trend that the x “State” Universities clearly rate their brother University of X schools as their chief rival, but the reverse is not true in states like Washington, Oregon, Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Michigan and Iowa.

(12-23-2020 02:44 PM)UpStreamRedTeam Wrote:  

(12-23-2020 08:35 AM)schmolik Wrote:  This was on the SEC board so I wanted to share with the main CSNBBS board.

https://knowrivalry.com/category/ncaaf/

I took the survey with Illinois and then looked at their results as well as the results of all of the P5 teams. They also have all of the professional leagues as well.

The scores are out of 100 and are based on this scale:
https://knowrivalry.com/about/

"Rivalry Points: The survey asked respondents to allocate 100 “rivalry points” across opponents of his or her favorite team. For instance, if John’s favorite team is the Springfield Isotopes, he may choose to allocate 60 points to the Shelbyvillians, whom he considers to be the Isotopes’s strongest rival, 30 points to the Norsemen, another opposing team he considers to be a rival of the Isotopes, and 10 points to the Woodchucks, a third opponent. Maria is another Isoptopes fan, and she chooses to allocate all 100 points to the Norsemen, the only team she considers to be a rival.

The rivalry score is calculated by taking the average point total toward a rival from all a team’s respondents. The maximum rivalry score is 100, which would mean all respondents listed that team as the lone rival. In our example above, the rivalry score for the Norsemen would be 65, which is the average of John’s 30 points and Maria’s 100 points (Shelbyvillians = 30 points, Woodchucks = 5 points).

The rivalry dyad score (or ‘aggregate score’) is calculated by adding respondents’ average rivalry score toward a particular opponent to the opposing average score of that opponent’s fans. In our example above, if the Norsemen fans held a rivalry score of 50 for the Isotopes, the rivalry dyad score for Isotopes-Norseman would be 115 (65 from Isotopes fans toward the Norseman, and 50 from the Norseman toward the Isotopes)."

Top score(s) from each team (I will list significant second/third place teams):

Big Ten:

Ohio State: Duh! Michigan (90.71)
Michigan: Duh! Ohio State (68.84). Michigan State (16.83)
Penn State: Ohio State (37.43), Pittsburgh (25.41), Michigan (19.22)
Wisconsin: Minnesota (41.97), Ohio State (20.17), Iowa (16.17)
Illinois: Northwestern (46.00)
Michigan State: Michigan (66.75), Notre Dame (18.85)
Indiana: Purdue (74.30)
Purdue: Indiana (54.27), Notre Dame (34.30)
Iowa: Iowa State (29.71), Wisconsin (23.83), Minnesota (16.33), Nebraska (15.13)
Minnesota: Wisconsin (54.23), Iowa (36.45)
Rutgers: CONNECTICUT (I'm not making this up!) (22.15). Syracuse (20.45), Penn State (17.30), Louisville (16.25)
Nebraska: Oklahoma (36.82), Wisconsin (21.20)
Northwestern: Illinois (50.78), Iowa (27.67)
There is "not enough data" for Maryland so Maryland fans should submit surveys!

You can measure a rivalry on both sides by adding the scores. For example, Ohio State/Michigan is 90.71+68.84 for a total of 159.55. The maximum score is 200. Obviously there are a significant portion of Michigan fans that think the in state rivalry is more important but the OSU/Michigan rivalry is the biggest rivalry in the Big Ten. Purdue/Indiana (128.57) is 2nd. Both Illinois and Northwestern and Wisconsin and Northwestern list each other as their biggest rivals. I've said Iowa and Nebraska belong in the Big 12. Their fans both selected Big 12 teams as their biggest rivals (Iowa not as much a margin as Nebraska). At least Penn State picked a Big Ten team as their #1. Rutgers? I'm not sure they even know what conference they belong in.

ACC:

Notre Dame: USC (58.24), Michigan (24.46)
Florida State: Florida (53.76), Miami (29.74), Clemson (14.55)
Miami: Florida State (54.38), Florida (22.56)
Clemson: South Carolina (73.56), Florida State (12.94)
Georgia Tech: Georgia (67.67), Clemson (16.41)
North Carolina: NC State (39.79), Duke (34.00), Virginia (7.47)
NC State: North Carolina (66.43)
Duke: North Carolina (84.38)
Virginia: Virginia Tech (60.68), North Carolina (24.77), Maryland (10.37)
Virginia Tech: Virginia (53.45), Miami (21.09), West Virginia (8.51)
Boston College: Notre Dame (74.17)
Louisville: Kentucky (71.09), Cincinnati (17.07)
Pittsburgh: West Virginia (44.17), Penn State (32.50), Notre Dame (15.00)
Syracuse, Wake Forest: Not enough data

I'm ashamed Penn State isn't Pittsburgh's biggest rival.
Out of 12 full football members with enough data, only 6 of them (the Virginia and North Carolina schools and Miami) have a conference member as their top rival. Florida State, Clemson, Georgia Tech, and Louisville all chose their SEC in state rival, Pittsburgh chose their nearby rival, and Boston College chose Notre Dame. The obvious disclaimer is this is football otherwise North Carolina's score would be Duke close to 100.

SEC:

Alabama: Auburn (48.21) (Surprisingly low!), Tennessee (25.42), LSU (19.84)
Florida: Florida State (38.78), Georgia (34.39), Tennessee (10.83)
Georgia: Florida (40.94), Georgia Tech (20.81), Auburn (20.34)
LSU: Alabama (49.64), Mississippi (13.07), Florida (11.07), Arkansas (10.29), Texas A&M (7.50)
Texas A&M: Texas (44.54), LSU (22.81), Alabama (17.56)
Auburn: Alabama (66.78), Georgia (21.16)
Tennessee: Alabama (48.37), Florida (27.42)
Kentucky: Louisville (56.40), Tennessee (56.40)
South Carolina: Clemson (67.29), Georgia (20.17)
Vanderbilt: Tennessee (72.82), Mississippi (12.25)
Mississippi: Mississippi State (45.02), LSU (44.85) - This is really close!
Mississippi State: Mississippi (78.22), Alabama (10.91)
Arkansas: LSU (35.31), Texas (22.50)
Missouri: Kansas (71.58), Arkansas (9.56)

Texas A&M and Missouri really haven't warmed to the SEC yet. Texas A&M still hates Texas more than anyone else, Missouri really hates Kansas (although I don't know why as they suck).

Like the ACC side, Florida's and South Carolina's biggest rivals are their ACC in state rivals. In South Carolina's case, it is Clemson by far. But in Florida's case it is pretty close between Florida State and Georgia as the Florida-Georgia rival is huge in the SEC. In fact, Georgia's biggest rival is Florida, the Gators got almost double the rivalry points as Georgia Tech.

There are some cases of "little brother" here. Mississippi State's is clearly Mississippi. Mississippi's is Mississippi State but it's really close. I didn't even know Mississippi-LSU was a rivalry. Actually that's a "little brother" to LSU although 13.07 for LSU towards Mississippi isn't insignificant. Vanderbilt definitely sees UT as their rival. Tennessee couldn't care less about Vandy. They gave VU just 7.66. The Vols gave Georgia 9.98. Tennessee should be a little brother to Alabama although somehow Alabama gave UT 25.42 rivalry points. If anyone should be 2nd to Auburn for 'Bama, it should be LSU after the games the last few years (this survey started in 2014). The last time Tennessee was relevant Peyton was still there (well they did win the national championship the year after they left but close enough).

Pac-12:

UCLA: USC (80.48), Cal (10.00)
USC: Notre Dame (45.37), UCLA (36.35)
Cal: Stanford (58.24), USC (20.59), UCLA (16.47)
Stanford: Cal (49.17), USC (26.94), Oregon (11.11)
Oregon: Washington (46.97), Oregon State (32.31)
Washington: Oregon (56.92), Washington State (28.62)
Arizona: Arizona State (89.25)
Arizona State: Arizona (82.51)
Colorado: Nebraska (48.11), Colorado State (21.59), Utah (10.44)
Utah: BYU (67.42), Colorado (10.64), Utah State (9.94)
Oregon State: Oregon (80.67)
Washington State: Washington (64.89)

No doubt Oregon State and Washington State are the little brothers. Based on numbers, you can say UCLA is USC's little brother as well ironically although the gap between UCLA and Notre Dame isn't as far as the gap between Oregon State and Washington and Oregon and Washington State (almost double the rivalry points!) If Oregon State and Washington State left the Pac-12, no one would miss them. Oregon and Washington would just play each other rivalry weekend. By contrast, Arizona and Arizona State are a real rivalry as both gave each other over 80 rivalry points. In fact, the two combined for 171.76 points, more than Michigan/Ohio State and more than any pair they surveyed.

Utah and Colorado obviously haven't warmed to the Pac-12 yet. Colorado gave Nebraska 48.11 points but Nebraska only gave them 5.01 points. You could say they don't belong in the Pac-12 but then where do they belong?

Big 12:

Texas: Oklahoma (65.17), Texas A&M (22.45), Texas Tech (5.12), No one else got more than 2 points
Oklahoma: Texas (65.62), Oklahoma State (17.71), Nebraska (15.76)
Oklahoma State: Oklahoma (71.57). Texas (12.39)
Texas Tech: Texas (36.67), Texas A&M (20.00), TCU (16.28), Baylor (11.78)
TCU: Baylor (30.06), SMU (23.18), Texas (20.39), Texas Tech (17.67)
Baylor: Texas (29.44), TCU (29.19), Texas A&M (24.59). Texas Tech (13.22)
West Virginia: Pittsburgh (59.25), Virginia Tech (18.72). The highest Big 12 team is Oklahoma (2.64, in SIXTH place!)
Kansas: Missouri (59.94), Kansas State (29.06)
Kansas State: Kansas (54.31), Texas (14.88)
Iowa State: Iowa (70.28), Kansas State (16.13)

Definitely a lot of little brothers here (Oklahoma State, Kansas State, every Texas school other than Texas, Iowa State, although by a slim margin Iowa's #1 rival is Iowa State).

Texas A&M still appears not only on Texas's list but also Texas Tech's and Baylor's lists, getting 20 or more rivalry points from each school. Baylor actually topped TCU's list. I think they were still bitter about them keeping them out of the Big 12 for many years.

I don't think there is any P5 team that doesn't belong in their conference more than West Virginia as their top FIVE choices were non conference teams. By the way, one of the five teams that got more rivalry points than Oklahoma (and Texas)? MARSHALL!

Top 10 Pairs (Highest Combined Score):
10. Kentucky-Louisville
9. Indiana-Purdue
8. Oklahoma-Texas
7. Kansas-Missouri
6. Clemson-South Carolina
5. Western Michigan-Central Michigan??? (Didn't know who in the MAC was rivals to whom)
4. Utah-BYU
3. Another MAC! Toledo-Bowling Green State
2. Michigan-Ohio State
1. Arizona-Arizona State

Half of these pairs aren't in the same conference.

I clicked on the link and Rutgers is still listed in the AAC, so maybe the data isn't super fresh/reliable. When Rutgers was in the Big East UConn was definitely a legitimate rival as were Louisville, but I know gives UConn a second thought anymore. The fact that Penn State was third despite the fact that the two teams hadn't played one another in anything for over 20 years just goes to show how much we hate PSU. If wiped the results clean it would probably be PSU 75, Maryland 20, State Penn 5.

Agreed. My first thought was that this is old data. During the days of the Big East 2.0, the Rutgers/UConn rivalry was real. In fact, other than WVU/Pitt, RU/UConn were the only two schools where a plurality of the fan bases identified the other school as its main rival. No/few natural rivalries was one of the problems with that version of the BE.
Since joining the BIG, RU has definitely refocused its hatred on the Penn State Reformatory. I would put Md in second place with what I believe will become an outstanding rivalry for both schools. Third place goes to Mich, because everybody hates that condescending bunch of douche bags.

(12-25-2020 12:47 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  

(12-25-2020 12:27 PM)ColumbusCard Wrote:  

(12-23-2020 04:13 PM)CliftonAve Wrote:  RIP to the Keg of Nails--- Cincinnati v. Louisville.

God I miss that game

Me too. Annual games against Louisville in football and hoops was none better in terms of regional rivalries for UC.

Those are games I miss as well. I would gladly trade a couple of games a season to play Cincinnati and Memphis.

So... a lot of schools hate Texas?