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Could "extra year" policy result in 16-man BB rosters from 2020-21 through 2024-25?
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jedclampett Offline
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MyBB Could "extra year" policy result in 16-man BB rosters from 2020-21 through 2024-25?
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The newly announced policy not to count 2020-21 sports against the standard four-year eligibility limit has begun to raise a number of interesting questions, each of which has potentially important implications

......................................................................................................

By not counting 2020-21 as a year of eligibility, it appears that current student athletes will have the option to play up to 5 seasons. However, the following questions remain:

1. Will this be contingent on the number of available athletic scholarships?

--In other words, will there be student athletes who are eligible to play, but who won't be able to receive athletic scholarships?

2. Will each university be permitted to increase the number of athletic scholarships indefinitely, so as to make it possible for all eligible student athletes to play 5, rather than 4 seasons?

3. If permitted to provide as many athletic scholarships as necessary, will some schools opt not to do so, due to financial constraints or other factors (e.g., limited student housing, etc.)?


4. In order to permit their student athletes to play an extra season, will the universities have the option to maintain an increased number of players on their rosters in 2021-22, 2022-23, 2023-24, and 2024-25?

5. Will each university be permitted to recruit the same number of players that they would have recruited if there had been no Covid pandemic?


......................................................................................................

Consider this example:

University "Z"'s Basketball Team has 13 players on their 2020-21 roster:

1 Graduate Transfer: Could be eligible in 20-21 and 21-22

2 Seniors: Could be eligible in 20-21 and 21-22

2 Juniors (Transfers): Could be eligible in 20-21, 21-22, and 22-23

1 Redshirt Sophomore: Could be eligible in 20-21, 21-22, 22-23 & 23-24

2 True Sophomores: Could be eligible in 20-21, 21-22, 22-23 & 23-24

1 Redshirt Freshman: Could be eligible in 20-21, 21-22, 22-23, 23-24 & 24-25

3 True Freshmen: Could be eligible in 20-21, 21-22, 22-23, 23-24 & 24-25

1 True Freshman (injured; out for season): Eligible in 21-22, 22-23, 23-24 & 24-25

Class of 2021: 3 Incoming: Eligible in 21-22, 22-23, 23-24 & 24-25

......................................................................................................

Projected roster size:

21-22: 16 (max.) (0 of 13 may depart; 3 recruits already committed)

22-23: 16 (max.) (3 of 16 depart; 3 recruits would ordinarily be added to roster)

23-24: 16 (max.) (2 of 16 depart; 2 recruits would ordinarily be added to roster)

24-25: 16 (max.) (3 of 16 depart; 3 recruits would ordinarily be added to roster)

25-26: 13 (max.) (8 of 16 depart; 5 recruits would ordinarily be added to roster)

......................................................................................................

If permitted to add recruits in this manner, which would be in full accordance with the standard pre-pandemic recruiting procedures, the roster would have 16 players in 2021-22, 2022-23, 2023-24, and 2024-25.

Assumptions:

* The number of athletes on the roster could drop below 16 in any or all four seasons, due to departures from the program due to graduation, out-transfers, loss of eligibility.

* The universities will be permitted to provide enough athletic scholarships to fund every eligible student athlete.

* Accordingly, the universities will, generally, provide enough athletic scholarships to fund every eligible student athlete.

......................................................................................................

Q: Does this accord with your expectations, as you understand the implications of the NCAA policy providing an extra year of eligibility for student athletes.

--If so, is it your expectation or assumption that universities might actually be able to maintain rosters with a maximum of 16, rather than the standard 13 players between 2020-21 and 2024-25?

Q: If not, do you think it would be likely that the NCAA would require each university to transition back to a maximum of 13 basketball roster spots before the 2024-25 season?

--Do you think it's conceivable that, if roster cutbacks were mandated, some or all Head Coaches would be required to choose between adding recruits in accordance with the standard recruiting plan and retaining experienced players?
(This post was last modified: 12-18-2020 08:05 PM by jedclampett.)
12-18-2020 07:40 PM
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pesik Offline
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RE: Could "extra year" policy result in 16-man BB rosters from 2020-21 through 2024-25?
the scholarship limit is still 13..

even next year..
there is just a exception next year that seniors who decide to stay wont count against the limit ..which i think is just a 1 year thing for next year

goes back to flat 13 in 2022
12-18-2020 08:17 PM
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TripleA Offline
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RE: Could "extra year" policy result in 16-man BB rosters from 2020-21 throu...
(12-18-2020 08:17 PM)pesik Wrote:  the scholarship limit is still 13..

even next year..
there is just a exception next year that seniors who decide to stay wont count against the limit ..which i think is just a 1 year thing for next year

goes back to flat 13 in 2022

I don't think it's just seniors, although I'm not positive. I think everybody gets an extra year if they want it. This year doesn't count for anybody, afaik.
12-18-2020 09:08 PM
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Stickboy46 Offline
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Could "extra year" policy result in 16-man BB rosters from 2020-21 through 2024-25?
Quote:I don't think it's just seniors, although I'm not positive. I think everybody gets an extra year if they want it. This year doesn't count for anybody, afaik.

Everyone get an extra year ... But schools can only go over the scholarship limit next year.

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(This post was last modified: 12-18-2020 09:12 PM by Stickboy46.)
12-18-2020 09:11 PM
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pesik Offline
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RE: Could "extra year" policy result in 16-man BB rosters from 2020-21 throu...
(12-18-2020 09:08 PM)TripleA Wrote:  
(12-18-2020 08:17 PM)pesik Wrote:  the scholarship limit is still 13..

even next year..
there is just a exception next year that seniors who decide to stay wont count against the limit ..which i think is just a 1 year thing for next year

goes back to flat 13 in 2022

I don't think it's just seniors, although I'm not positive. I think everybody gets an extra year if they want it. This year doesn't count for anybody, afaik.

yes everyone gets an extra year, but only seniors wont count against the limit (13 scholarship players)

for example if you have 13 scholarship players, 5 are seniors, all 5 come back, you are allowed to have 18 scholarship players next year, and can bring in 5 players

if you have 13 scholarship players, none are seniors, even if all 13 planned to play 5 years you only have 13 ships for next year and cannot bring anyone else in, without pushing players out

note- exception to the rule; you must be a senior staying at your current school...seniors who transfer or grad transfer count towards the 13 limit of the new school
(This post was last modified: 12-18-2020 09:16 PM by pesik.)
12-18-2020 09:15 PM
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pesik Offline
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RE: Could "extra year" policy result in 16-man BB rosters from 2020-21 through 2024-25?
this information is from goodman

someone asked him how the limit would work and in reference to immediate eligibility passing too
all the powerhouse teams could talent horde and have 20+ roster teams, made up of the best of the best from mid-majors //

said the 13 limit is still in place but seniors who return will not count against it, any transfer counts towards it
(This post was last modified: 12-19-2020 12:07 PM by pesik.)
12-18-2020 09:23 PM
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TripleA Offline
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Post: #7
RE: Could "extra year" policy result in 16-man BB rosters from 2020-21 throu...
(12-18-2020 09:23 PM)pesik Wrote:  this information is from goodman

someone asked him how the limit would work and in reference to immediate eligibility passing too
all the powerhouse teams could talent horde and have 20+ roster teams, made up of the best of the best from mid-majors //

said the 13 limit is still in place but seniors who return will not count against, any transfer counts towards it

How can powerhouse teams stock up with mid-major players if transfers count toward the limit?
12-19-2020 05:46 AM
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b0ndsj0ns Offline
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Post: #8
RE: Could "extra year" policy result in 16-man BB rosters from 2020-21 throu...
(12-19-2020 05:46 AM)TripleA Wrote:  
(12-18-2020 09:23 PM)pesik Wrote:  this information is from goodman

someone asked him how the limit would work and in reference to immediate eligibility passing too
all the powerhouse teams could talent horde and have 20+ roster teams, made up of the best of the best from mid-majors //

said the 13 limit is still in place but seniors who return will not count against, any transfer counts towards it

How can powerhouse teams stock up with mid-major players if transfers count toward the limit?

I think he's saying someone asked Goodman if powerhouse teams could stack senior transfers and have gigantic rosters and the answer is no only seniors who stay on their current rosters can not count towards the 13 limit.
12-19-2020 11:14 AM
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HoustonRocks Offline
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RE: Could "extra year" policy result in 16-man BB rosters from 2020-21 throu...
Can a senior that red-shirted before this year play in his 6-th year?
12-19-2020 12:56 PM
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TripleA Offline
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RE: Could "extra year" policy result in 16-man BB rosters from 2020-21 throu...
(12-19-2020 11:14 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  
(12-19-2020 05:46 AM)TripleA Wrote:  
(12-18-2020 09:23 PM)pesik Wrote:  this information is from goodman

someone asked him how the limit would work and in reference to immediate eligibility passing too
all the powerhouse teams could talent horde and have 20+ roster teams, made up of the best of the best from mid-majors //

said the 13 limit is still in place but seniors who return will not count against, any transfer counts towards it

How can powerhouse teams stock up with mid-major players if transfers count toward the limit?

I think he's saying someone asked Goodman if powerhouse teams could stack senior transfers and have gigantic rosters and the answer is no only seniors who stay on their current rosters can not count towards the 13 limit.

I get it. Which is exactly why I asked the question. You can't stack a roster if transfers count against the 13 limit. You can only stack it with your own seniors.
12-19-2020 01:15 PM
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pesik Offline
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Post: #11
RE: Could "extra year" policy result in 16-man BB rosters from 2020-21 throu...
(12-19-2020 01:15 PM)TripleA Wrote:  
(12-19-2020 11:14 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  
(12-19-2020 05:46 AM)TripleA Wrote:  
(12-18-2020 09:23 PM)pesik Wrote:  this information is from goodman

someone asked him how the limit would work and in reference to immediate eligibility passing too
all the powerhouse teams could talent horde and have 20+ roster teams, made up of the best of the best from mid-majors //

said the 13 limit is still in place but seniors who return will not count against, any transfer counts towards it

How can powerhouse teams stock up with mid-major players if transfers count toward the limit?

I think he's saying someone asked Goodman if powerhouse teams could stack senior transfers and have gigantic rosters and the answer is no only seniors who stay on their current rosters can not count towards the 13 limit.

I get it. Which is exactly why I asked the question. You can't stack a roster if transfers count against the 13 limit. You can only stack it with your own seniors.

i think we are saying the same thing.. just mixing up the other... i was saying the rule prevents teams from stackings

some noted earlier there wasnt a limit next year, i said there was, becuase if there were no limit certain teams would exploit it
12-19-2020 01:42 PM
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TripleA Offline
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Post: #12
RE: Could "extra year" policy result in 16-man BB rosters from 2020-21 throu...
(12-19-2020 01:42 PM)pesik Wrote:  
(12-19-2020 01:15 PM)TripleA Wrote:  
(12-19-2020 11:14 AM)b0ndsj0ns Wrote:  
(12-19-2020 05:46 AM)TripleA Wrote:  
(12-18-2020 09:23 PM)pesik Wrote:  this information is from goodman

someone asked him how the limit would work and in reference to immediate eligibility passing too
all the powerhouse teams could talent horde and have 20+ roster teams, made up of the best of the best from mid-majors //

said the 13 limit is still in place but seniors who return will not count against, any transfer counts towards it

How can powerhouse teams stock up with mid-major players if transfers count toward the limit?

I think he's saying someone asked Goodman if powerhouse teams could stack senior transfers and have gigantic rosters and the answer is no only seniors who stay on their current rosters can not count towards the 13 limit.

I get it. Which is exactly why I asked the question. You can't stack a roster if transfers count against the 13 limit. You can only stack it with your own seniors.

i think we are saying the same thing.. just mixing up the other... i was saying the rule prevents teams from stackings

some noted earlier there wasnt a limit next year, i said there was, becuase if there were no limit certain teams would exploit it

Yes, we were agreeing, for a change. I was asking the question to emphasize that. It was rhetorical.
12-19-2020 02:51 PM
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jedclampett Offline
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Post: #13
RE: Could "extra year" policy result in 16-man BB rosters from 2020-21 throu...
(12-18-2020 09:15 PM)pesik Wrote:  
(12-18-2020 09:08 PM)TripleA Wrote:  
(12-18-2020 08:17 PM)pesik Wrote:  the scholarship limit is still 13..

even next year..
there is just a exception next year that seniors who decide to stay wont count against the limit ..which i think is just a 1 year thing for next year

goes back to flat 13 in 2022

I don't think it's just seniors, although I'm not positive. I think everybody gets an extra year if they want it. This year doesn't count for anybody, afaik.

yes everyone gets an extra year, but only seniors wont count against the limit (13 scholarship players)

for example if you have 13 scholarship players, 5 are seniors, all 5 come back, you are allowed to have 18 scholarship players next year, and can bring in 5 players

if you have 13 scholarship players, none are seniors, even if all 13 planned to play 5 years you only have 13 ships for next year and cannot bring anyone else in, without pushing players out

This seems clear enough, if true.

......................................................................................................

Assuming that it is correct, then if all of the current freshmen, sophomores, and juniors on a team remain fully eligible, express unflagging interest in returning to play in 2022-23, and decide not to opt out, the Head Coaches may need to think more carefully than usual about how many potential recruits to offer and sign from the Class of 2022.

HCs who have, for example, two current juniors on their rosters will be inclined to consider the following options:

a) Recruit two athletes from the Class of 2022, with the expectation that two potential players either won't return in 2022-23, or would be willing to play a season with the status of a "walk-on."

b) Sign one Class of 2022 recruit, with the expectation that one potential player won't return in 2022-23, or would be willing to play a season with the status of a "walk-on."

c) Sign no Class of 2022 recruits, hoping, either, that all 13 current players will return in 2022-23, or that he'll be able to handle any unexpected departures with transfer(s) for the 2022-23 season.

......................................................................................................

Regardless, the policy granting an extra year to all active players in 2020-21 may have some unexpected consequences, including the following:

In particular, the extra-year policy may reduce the number of transfers who will seek to switch teams for the 21-22, 22-23, and 23-24 seasons.

The obvious disadvantage to the players considering a transfer is that, by transferring out, they would be giving up the opportunity to play an extra season, and to get another year of cost-free education, which would allow them to add an Academic Minor, a certification, a Double Major, a Master's Degree, or simply take the opportunity to complete their Bachelor's Degree in 5, rather than 4 years.

In addition, Head Coaches may be more eager than usual to minimize the number of current players who transfer out or become ineligible because their current freshmen, sophomores, and juniors will have the opportunity to play the equivalent of two senior years (one as a senior and one as a grad transfer).

While not every player excels during his senior year, many do, and teams with the most upperclassmen on the roster often have an added advantage. Thus, those teams that retain the most players who are able to play an extra season will tend to have the advantages attributable to having a lot of upperclassmen on their rosters.

......................................................................................................

In addition, there will be implications for potential recruits. Due to the advantages of retaining players who would be eligible to play an extra season, there may be a reduction in the number of HS athletes who will receive high-D1 scholarship offers.

Some who would otherwise be likely to receive an offer might have to consider either playing at a less preferable school that has scholarships available or considering the option to play one season as a walk-on, if they can manage the costs.

......................................................................................................

There also will be opportunities for some lower-ranked
D1 (and D2/NAIA, etc. level) programs to acquire more talented recruits and, perhaps, a few more high-quality transfers than usual.

The exact number will be difficult to estimate, but if the typical Top 100 team adds an average of 3-4 new recruits or transfers per season, and if that number is reduced to an average of only 2-3 per season as a result, then that would result in sending as many as 100 new recruits or transfers that would have found a place on top 100 teams to lower-ranked programs in each of the next three seasons.

The result could be more parity within the conferences through 2023-24.

......................................................................................................

Another possible consequence is that the overall quality of play may improve over the next few seasons, due to the increased number of highly experienced players who will be playing on most college teams.

......................................................................................................

Further clarification might be achieved by considering the implications of the extra-year policy to the example in the original post (above):
......................................................................................................

The University "Z" Basketball Team:

1. Would the provision for seniors also apply to all student-athletes who are playing their 4th year of eligibility (including Graduate Student-athletes)?

--In other words, would the Graduate Transfer (playing his 4th season at "Univ. Z") be eligible to return in 21-22, and like a senior, not count against the limit?

2. Would the two Seniors be eligible to return in 21-22 without counting against the 13 man limit (The answer seems, from the above, to be yes)?

......................................................................................................

NOTE: If the answers to (1) and (2) are yes, then "University Z" would have 16 players on roster in 2021-22 and 13 every succeeding year.
......................................................................................................

3. Transfer Juniors: Would they both be eligible to play in 20-21, 21-22, and 22-23, even though they would count against the limit in 21-22, and 22-23 (The answer seems, from the above, to be yes)?

4. Would all 3 Sophomores and 8 Freshmen be able to play in 20-21, 21-22, 22-23 & 23-24, even though they would count against the limit from 21-24? (The answer seems, from the above, to be yes)

5. Would the 3 new recruits be able to play in 21-22, 22-23, 23-24 & 24-25? (The answer seems, from the above, to be yes)


......................................................................................................

--If so, and if they were to return for 21-22 and 22-23, only 13 of the following 15 players could be on the (scholarship) roster for the 2022-23 season:

*Two current "Transfer Juniors" (playing their final season in 22-23)
*Three current Sophomores (two transfers, one RS So.)
*Five current Freshmen (3 uninjured, 1 RS Fr., 1 who'll receive RS)
*Three incoming (signed or committed) recruits in the Class of 2021.
*Two recruits from the Class of 2022 who would have replaced the two departing players (the current "Transfer Juniors").


......................................................................................................
(This post was last modified: 12-20-2020 01:07 AM by jedclampett.)
12-19-2020 11:39 PM
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