we will get there eventually, it will just take time and effort.
we have already made great progress with efforts that have started with Houston, UCF, and now Cincy to include other teams.
one of the things he needs to shoot for is the playoff expansion. i think that has more wheels than the BCS system.
(This post was last modified: 12-17-2020 04:30 AM by Agust.)
we will get there eventually, it will just take time and effort.
we have already made great progress with efforts that have started with Houston, UCF, and now Cincy to include other teams.
one of the things he needs to shoot for is the playoff expansion. i think that has more wheels than the BCS system.
Agreed. While we won’t always have an at-large top 8, if we make a little noise in the years that we do, it’s an opportunity for another step forward.
(12-17-2020 04:29 AM)Agust Wrote: we will get there eventually, it will just take time and effort.
No. No we won't.
The CFP is a system of power and privilege. It will NOT simply change because "it's unfair," or because "we deserve it." People and institutions do not ever give up power and privilege willingly.
(12-17-2020 04:29 AM)Agust Wrote: we will get there eventually, it will just take time and effort.
No. No we won't.
The CFP is a system of power and privilege. It will NOT simply change because "it's unfair," or because "we deserve it." People and institutions do not ever give up power and privilege willingly.
Agree. That's why I find it hard to believe the P-5 will ever have fairness as a criteria. If the CFP is expanded to 8 schools it will simply be to generate more P-5 revenue. The only possible means to derive some fairness in the process will come from some antitrust action (threatened or real), not the benevolence of P-5 decisions. So I don't expect change. Right now the P-5 can point to the fact that a P-5 conference is left out every year, so there is no inherent bias. If expanded to 8 schools, it become much more difficult to defend decisions that systematically leave out G5 schools. But leaving out G5 schools will always be done & justified unless the system is made to require inclusion. And the likely trade will be if a G5 school does make an 8 team CFP, it will come with the loss of a guaranteed NY6 bowl slot.
(This post was last modified: 12-17-2020 08:33 AM by Atlanta.)
They're never going to hand out more money out of the kindness and goodness of their hearts. Forget lawsuits and Congress. It's got to make more money. Anybody remember the movie Kelly's Heroes? The main characters are trying to figure out how to get a German tiger tank off the town square so they can steal the gold out of a bank in France. Don Rickles has a solution for them, you make a deal.
I recently read an article from a couple of years ago about expanding the CFP. The estimate was that expansion could add $420 million. Aresco needs to call the Pac-12, the most under represented P5 conference in the playoff system, every week. More money. More exposure. Six conferences against five.
we will get there eventually, it will just take time and effort.
we have already made great progress with efforts that have started with Houston, UCF, and now Cincy to include other teams.
one of the things he needs to shoot for is the playoff expansion. i think that has more wheels than the BCS system.
Agreed. While we won’t always have an at-large top 8, if we make a little noise in the years that we do, it’s an opportunity for another step forward.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If a g4-P6 has to be in the top 8, there will never again be a g4-P6 in the top 8. It has to be an auto bid.
**** Aresco. Took way too long, and a return to the BCS is moronic. The BCS gave 2/3s of the weight to the human polls, which are going to be influenced by the P5/G5 divide. With all the media narrative around P5 and strength of schedule and all that BS, there is no way that the G5 will ever get to where we used to be in the human polls. The notion of equity in CFB has been completely abandoned. BYU would not come close to winning the national title in 1984 if the present biases were in place. And if we were still in a system without those biases like existed in 1984, UCF would have been the AP champion.
Bottom-line: the only solution is an NCAA-run playoff that includes all conference champions.
(12-17-2020 08:45 AM)mikeinoki Wrote: They're never going to hand out more money out of the kindness and goodness of their hearts. Forget lawsuits and Congress. It's got to make more money. Anybody remember the movie Kelly's Heroes? The main characters are trying to figure out how to get a German tiger tank off the town square so they can steal the gold out of a bank in France. Don Rickles has a solution for them, you make a deal.
I recently read an article from a couple of years ago about expanding the CFP. The estimate was that expansion could add $420 million. Aresco needs to call the Pac-12, the most under represented P5 conference in the playoff system, every week. More money. More exposure. Six conferences against five.
we will get there eventually, it will just take time and effort.
we have already made great progress with efforts that have started with Houston, UCF, and now Cincy to include other teams.
one of the things he needs to shoot for is the playoff expansion. i think that has more wheels than the BCS system.
Agreed. While we won’t always have an at-large top 8, if we make a little noise in the years that we do, it’s an opportunity for another step forward.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If a g4-P6 has to be in the top 8, there will never again be a g4-P6 in the top 8. It has to be an auto bid.
I still think that's lame. I don't think we should get a handicap auto-slot any more than the P5 should. Plus, we would always be in the 8-slot even if we had the 5th best team.
we will get there eventually, it will just take time and effort.
we have already made great progress with efforts that have started with Houston, UCF, and now Cincy to include other teams.
one of the things he needs to shoot for is the playoff expansion. i think that has more wheels than the BCS system.
This year has been a huge step in public perception of G5 programs.
we will get there eventually, it will just take time and effort.
we have already made great progress with efforts that have started with Houston, UCF, and now Cincy to include other teams.
one of the things he needs to shoot for is the playoff expansion. i think that has more wheels than the BCS system.
Agreed. While we won’t always have an at-large top 8, if we make a little noise in the years that we do, it’s an opportunity for another step forward.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If a g4-P6 has to be in the top 8, there will never again be a g4-P6 in the top 8. It has to be an auto bid.
I still think that's lame. I don't think we should get a handicap auto-slot any more than the P5 should. Plus, we would always be in the 8-slot even if we had the 5th best team.
Then we're not making it at all. Just look at Cincy being moved down to 9. That should tell you all you need to know about what will happen if it merely goes from 4 to 8 without an autobid.
(12-17-2020 04:29 AM)Agust Wrote: we will get there eventually, it will just take time and effort.
No. No we won't.
The CFP is a system of power and privilege. It will NOT simply change because "it's unfair," or because "we deserve it." People and institutions do not ever give up power and privilege willingly.
That's a good point. The only time non-AQ and G5 have gotten improvements is from the exercise of power, specifically some powerful Senators in the 2000s doing some serious arm-twisting. That was caused by the unique confluence of Utah having (a) two programs that seemed to be power level but were shut out and (b) the senior senator from Utah being extraordinarily powerful and in the ruling party. That's unlikely to happen again.
Power only bends to superior power, not to anything else. The problem the G5 have is we have little power, and that's because we have little market value. That's the true underlying issue.
(This post was last modified: 12-17-2020 10:50 AM by quo vadis.)
we will get there eventually, it will just take time and effort.
we have already made great progress with efforts that have started with Houston, UCF, and now Cincy to include other teams.
one of the things he needs to shoot for is the playoff expansion. i think that has more wheels than the BCS system.
This year has been a huge step in public perception of G5 programs.
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Bolded, I'd like to believe that. But I think many perceive it as simply an anomaly created by the Covid 19 delayed starts, wholesale schedule changes, and game cancellations.
Let's see if the 2021 preseason polls reflect any breakthrough or just a return to the status quo where brand names prevail over team quality.
With the NIL legislation being introduced in Congress and it looking like there will be a negotiated compromise between the bills introduced by Sen. Booker and Sen. Wicker, I think this is a time to energize public support for Congress solving the CFP issue. The Wicker bill proposes antitrust immunity for the NCAA, and we need to blow up social media and their offices demanding that if such immunity is granted, it should be done so on the basis that FBS have an NCAA playoff and not the CFP or another system.
(12-17-2020 04:29 AM)Agust Wrote: we will get there eventually, it will just take time and effort.
we have already made great progress with efforts that have started with Houston, UCF, and now Cincy to include other teams.
one of the things he needs to shoot for is the playoff expansion. i think that has more wheels than the BCS system.
Agreed. While we won’t always have an at-large top 8, if we make a little noise in the years that we do, it’s an opportunity for another step forward.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If a g4-P6 has to be in the top 8, there will never again be a g4-P6 in the top 8. It has to be an auto bid.
I still think that's lame. I don't think we should get a handicap auto-slot any more than the P5 should. Plus, we would always be in the 8-slot even if we had the 5th best team.
Then we're not making it at all. Just look at Cincy being moved down to 9. That should tell you all you need to know about what will happen if it merely goes from 4 to 8 without an autobid.
eh, if Cincy wins convincingly this weekend, I see them back at 7-8.
we will get there eventually, it will just take time and effort.
we have already made great progress with efforts that have started with Houston, UCF, and now Cincy to include other teams.
one of the things he needs to shoot for is the playoff expansion. i think that has more wheels than the BCS system.
This year has been a huge step in public perception of G5 programs.
Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
Bolded, I'd like to believe that. But I think many perceive it as simply an anomaly created by the Covid 19 delayed starts, wholesale schedule changes, and game cancellations.
Let's see if the 2021 preseason polls reflect any breakthrough or just a return to the status quo where brand names prevail over team quality.
I kind of agree with Panama on this, for not only perception but for eventual opportunity as well, for multiple reasons.
1) We have highly ranked, undefeated teams from multiple conferences.
2) The CFP committee seems to have pissed off the public, not only in favor of our teams, but also in favor of teams like Georgia that got passed by Iowa State and undefeated USC sitting at #13 while Ohio State is at #4 with 5 unimpressive wins. A close to critical mass of people are pissed off about Ohio State getting in from name recognition alone.
In my opinion, if "they"(the overlords that don't want us anywhere near the playoff) were really playing the long game, this is the year they should have put Cindy in at #4. If they win a playoff game or even play competitively, you've got a "this is a weird, unprecedented season" COVID asterisks to throw on things like how they can say Auburn didn't really feel like beating UCF in the Peach Bowl. If they lost, hopefully badly, then they a) have the ammunition to say we don't belong anywhere near the playoff, and 2) can point to this year to deny the fact that we don't really have a shot in a normal year.
(This post was last modified: 12-17-2020 11:04 AM by CoastalJuan.)
(12-17-2020 04:29 AM)Agust Wrote: we will get there eventually, it will just take time and effort.
No. No we won't.
The CFP is a system of power and privilege. It will NOT simply change because "it's unfair," or because "we deserve it." People and institutions do not ever give up power and privilege willingly.
That's a good point. The only time non-AQ and G5 have gotten improvements is from the exercise of power, specifically some powerful Senators in the 2000s doing some serious arm-twisting. That was caused by the unique confluence of Utah having (a) two programs that seemed to be power level but were shut out and (b) the senior senator from Utah being extraordinarily powerful and in the ruling party. That's unlikely to happen again.
Power only bends to superior power, not to anything else. The problem the G5 have is we have little power, and that's because we have little market value. That's the true underlying issue.
Thats why there likely is an anti-trust case to be had. There are 65 schools who have zero chance at the playoff regardless if they win every game on their schedule. Its pretty obvious there is a cabal.
I dont think it would be all that hard to prove the G5 is damaged by that behavior. That exclusion---which began as far back as the early Bowl Coalistion days, certainly has had an effect on the cumulative earnings, TV viewership, and recruiting at those 65 non-power conference schools.
With the new CFP system, Im not sure you could prove there was no chance for a G5 to make the playoff in 2012 when it was being agreed to---but I think there is enough CFP Committee data now to prove that no G5 will ever make it into the top 4--and even if one somehow manages to make it---the circumstances would be so rare as to make the access irrelevant with respect to its effect on earnings, TV viewership, and recruiting at G5 schools. Interestingly, I dont think anti-trust is the only route. I think you could also make a case that the execution of the CFP system compared to how it was sold to the G5 amounts to misrepresentation, breach of contract, or even outright fraud--as the representation that the Committee would operate in a fair and unbiased manner using consistent agreed upon metrics has clearly not been the case.
That said, such an action would likely poison the well of working with the P5 and is probably not the best course of action....yet. My sense is the best route is to keep stoking the media perception of unfairness and be patient. My guess is legitimate access to the CFP will come in the form of a 5-1-2 plan at the end of this current CFP contract (at the latest). If the Supreme Court upholds the current ruling on the Alston Case, then massive change will come to college football as player compensation caps will rise (or possibly completely eliminated). That money for increased player compensation will need to come from somewhere. Thus, an expansion of the CFP could happen much sooner rather than later.
Additionally, national legislation on NIL which would could also give the NCAA/college football limited anti-trust protections on player compensation will be proposed and debated in the next session of Congress. This is a time where the 65 schools involved in FBS may have an opportunity through their legislators to apply some leverage to the P5. Heck, they may even be able to arrange to have legitimate guaranteed playoff access for the G5 written into the bill--especially if the vote is close in the Senate.
(This post was last modified: 12-17-2020 11:26 AM by Attackcoog.)
(12-17-2020 04:29 AM)Agust Wrote: we will get there eventually, it will just take time and effort.
No. No we won't.
The CFP is a system of power and privilege. It will NOT simply change because "it's unfair," or because "we deserve it." People and institutions do not ever give up power and privilege willingly.
That's a good point. The only time non-AQ and G5 have gotten improvements is from the exercise of power, specifically some powerful Senators in the 2000s doing some serious arm-twisting. That was caused by the unique confluence of Utah having (a) two programs that seemed to be power level but were shut out and (b) the senior senator from Utah being extraordinarily powerful and in the ruling party. That's unlikely to happen again.
Power only bends to superior power, not to anything else. The problem the G5 have is we have little power, and that's because we have little market value. That's the true underlying issue.
Thats why there likely is an anti-trust case to be had. There are 65 schools who have zero chance at the playoff regardless if they win every game on their schedule. Its pretty obvious there is a cabal.
I dont think it would be all that hard to prove the G5 is damaged by that behavior. That exclusion---which began as far back as the early Bowl Coalistion days, certainly has had an effect on the cumulative earnings, TV viewership, and recruiting at those 65 schools.
With the new CFP system, Im not sure you could prove there was no chance for a G5 to make the playoff in 2012---but I think there is enough CFP Committee data to prove that no G5 will ever make it in--and even if one somehow manages to make it---the circumstances would be so rare as to make the access irrelavant with respect to its effect on earnings, TV viewership, and recruiting. Interestingly, I think you could also make a case on the basis of breach of contract, misrepresentation, or even fraud--as the representation the the Committee would operate in a fair and unbiased manner using agreed upon metrics has clearly not been the case.
That said, such an action would likely poison the well of working with the P5 and is probably not the best course of action....yet. My sense is the best route is to keep stoking the media fire and be patient. My guess is legitimate access to the CFP will come in the form of a 5-1-2 plan at the end of this current CFP contract (at the latest). If the Supreme Court upholds the current ruling on the Alston Case, then massive change will come to college football as player compensation caps will rise (or be eliminated). That money will need to come from somewhere. Thus, an expansion of the CFP could happen sooner rather than later.
Additionally, national legislation on NIL which would give the NCAA/college football limited anti-trust protections will be proposed and will be debated in the next session of Congress. This is a time where the 65 schools involved in FBS may have an opportunity through their legislators to apply some leverage to the P5. Heck, they may even be able to arrange to have legitimate guaranteed playoff access written into the bill--especially if the vote is close in the Senate.
One thing the MWC has going for them relative to us is having several state flagship schools that can pressure politicians. If UCF/USF try to lobby this issue, I'm sure UF, FSU, and Miami will be push back hard, and we'll get out-muscled. Same thing is true for every AAC school except Navy, who can argue that the academies should not be excluded from a playoff to the entire Senate.
But if New Mexico, Wyoming, UNLV/Nevada, Boise, and Hawaii make sure their senators will not vote for a bill that doesn't include a real playoff, then it has very little chance of passing.
