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The missed layups
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450bench Offline
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Post: #21
RE: The missed layups
I’ll take Boogie, you take Lomax.

Just not sure where Alex’s head is right now.
12-16-2020 11:55 PM
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ItsDude Offline
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Post: #22
RE: The missed layups
(12-16-2020 11:43 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  
(12-16-2020 11:42 PM)Browning Hall Wrote:  
(12-16-2020 11:35 PM)ItsDude Wrote:  
(12-16-2020 11:26 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  
(12-16-2020 11:25 PM)3rdgenerationtiger Wrote:  Lomax needs to be isolated on the bench.

The parrots on this board are comical...

Right now he is better than Boogie.

I agree...Boogie is going to jack up a bad 3 the first time he gets in the game....did it twice tonight. He just wants his. We are much better off with Boogie and Lance on the pines....if Penny would go 8 deep until the game is decided, we’d be much better off.

I think he just wants redemption, but thinks he has to score to get it.

You touch on a very key point...

It seems his offense affects his effort.

I wouldn't go as far to call him selfish...I really don't think that is the case.

Its kind of the same thing Tyler Harris went through...looks like he’s feeling a lot of pressure to immediately score to justify playing. Some of that can be attributed to coaching combined with having a lot of players competing for time...... Whatever it is, Boogie doesn’t need to be in lineup with DJ, Nolley, and Williams in there...not enough shots to go around.
12-16-2020 11:57 PM
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tigers0830 Offline
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Post: #23
RE: The missed layups
(12-16-2020 11:41 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  
(12-16-2020 11:29 PM)tigers0830 Wrote:  
(12-16-2020 11:26 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  
(12-16-2020 11:25 PM)3rdgenerationtiger Wrote:  
(12-16-2020 10:58 PM)rolexjames Wrote:  Teams have started to isolate Nolley and Lomax on D and go at them.

Lomax needs to be isolated on the bench.

The parrots on this board are comical...

Right now he is better than Boogie.

Dude no he's not

The numbers say lineups with Alo on the floor are better than lineups with Boogie on the floor.

Offensively before today...We scored about the same number of points per possession with Alo or Boogie on the floor.

Defensively before today...We give up less points per possession when Alo is on the floor than when Boogie is on the floor.

It really aint that hard.

The number don't tell the whole story. I'm so sick of people using analytics and stats to defend Lomax.

Use your damn eyes. Lomax still in year 3 makes the same dumb mistakes game after game after game. He gambles on defense way too much leaving other defenders out to dry. He drives in the paint with no strategy and then throws a wild shot at the rim. Add all this to Lomax is absolutely zero threat on the offensive end.

Now I'm not saying Boogie is some mega star, because he's not, but he's better than Lomax.
12-17-2020 12:00 AM
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tigers0830 Offline
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Post: #24
RE: The missed layups
(12-16-2020 11:55 PM)450bench Wrote:  I’ll take Boogie, you take Lomax.

Just not sure where Alex’s head is right now.

Exactly. Give me Boogie every single time.
12-17-2020 12:02 AM
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Flugel Offline
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Post: #25
RE: The missed layups
(12-16-2020 11:55 PM)450bench Wrote:  I’ll take Boogie, you take Lomax.

Just not sure where Alex’s head is right now.

Agree on this. I also don't think the choice is between Boogie vs Lomax. Lomax is still constantly gambling, forcing early shot clock bad shots, and making a number of poor passes.

Teams are obviously not helping on him when he drives. They’re taking away passing lanes, forcing him to shoot it. And they just stay in front of him and don’t foul. He gets stuck and just throws up the shots. He is a junior and is still trying to play outside his skill set. He has seemed to have plateaued and is hurting the team on both ends of the court.
(This post was last modified: 12-17-2020 01:57 AM by Flugel.)
12-17-2020 12:08 AM
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macgar32 Offline
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Post: #26
RE: The missed layups
(12-17-2020 12:00 AM)tigers0830 Wrote:  
(12-16-2020 11:41 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  
(12-16-2020 11:29 PM)tigers0830 Wrote:  
(12-16-2020 11:26 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  
(12-16-2020 11:25 PM)3rdgenerationtiger Wrote:  Lomax needs to be isolated on the bench.

The parrots on this board are comical...

Right now he is better than Boogie.

Dude no he's not

The numbers say lineups with Alo on the floor are better than lineups with Boogie on the floor.

Offensively before today...We scored about the same number of points per possession with Alo or Boogie on the floor.

Defensively before today...We give up less points per possession when Alo is on the floor than when Boogie is on the floor.

It really aint that hard.

The number don't tell the whole story. I'm so sick of people using analytics and stats to defend Lomax.

Use your damn eyes. Lomax still in year 3 makes the same dumb mistakes game after game after game. He gambles on defense way too much leaving other defenders out to dry. He drives in the paint with no strategy and then throws a wild shot at the rim. Add all this to Lomax is absolutely zero threat on the offensive end.

Now I'm not saying Boogie is some mega star, because he's not, but he's better than Lomax.

He definitely has more upside than Lomax...I don't think there is any doubt there.

But right now he is not playing better.

You can argue against it all you want...But when the team Scores the same and allows less with Lomax lineups. That clearly means when Lomax is on the floor the team is better than when Boogie is on the floor.

Does Boogie have the talent to be better than Lomax...Absolutely. Is he realizing that talent right now...Absolutely not.
(This post was last modified: 12-17-2020 12:13 AM by macgar32.)
12-17-2020 12:09 AM
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Alanda Offline
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Post: #27
RE: The missed layups
(12-16-2020 11:28 PM)tigers0830 Wrote:  
(12-16-2020 09:55 PM)Mimi Wrote:  Perhaps the most maddening thing I’ve seen in 40 years

Worse than missed free throws

You miss some bunnies, but our kids miss an ungodly amount of them

Getting great shots and missing them all

This right here. I broke it down after the Auburn game. Before tonight we have missed 102 shots at the rim.

We run good offense a lot of the time, but can't finish.

Yeah. I mentioned it in the thread looking at the offense. We lack good finishers on the team.
12-17-2020 12:18 AM
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memtigbb Offline
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Post: #28
RE: The missed layups
(12-17-2020 12:09 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  
(12-17-2020 12:00 AM)tigers0830 Wrote:  
(12-16-2020 11:41 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  
(12-16-2020 11:29 PM)tigers0830 Wrote:  
(12-16-2020 11:26 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  The parrots on this board are comical...

Right now he is better than Boogie.

Dude no he's not

The numbers say lineups with Alo on the floor are better than lineups with Boogie on the floor.

Offensively before today...We scored about the same number of points per possession with Alo or Boogie on the floor.

Defensively before today...We give up less points per possession when Alo is on the floor than when Boogie is on the floor.

It really aint that hard.

The number don't tell the whole story. I'm so sick of people using analytics and stats to defend Lomax.

Use your damn eyes. Lomax still in year 3 makes the same dumb mistakes game after game after game. He gambles on defense way too much leaving other defenders out to dry. He drives in the paint with no strategy and then throws a wild shot at the rim. Add all this to Lomax is absolutely zero threat on the offensive end.

Now I'm not saying Boogie is some mega star, because he's not, but he's better than Lomax.

He definitely has more upside than Lomax...I don't think there is any doubt there.

But right now he is not playing better.

You can argue against it all you want...But when the team Scores the same and allows less with Lomax lineups. That clearly means when Lomax is on the floor the team is better than when Boogie is on the floor.

Does Boogie have the talent to be better than Lomax...Absolutely. Is he realizing that talent right now...Absolutely not.

I agree with this fully. I know the numbers and by the numbers ALo does have an advantage. The issue I have with it is the ceilings and what we need. IMO ALo is what he is, he is at his ceiling. What he is right now, at his ceiling, isnt good enough to make us a tournament team. Where Boogie is right now isnt good enough to make us a tournament team. BUT, Boogie has a LOT of room for improvement. It can only go up if he is given the time and focus on running the offense.

The hard fact is, we needed a PG bad this offseason and just didnt land one.
12-17-2020 12:22 AM
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Herff Tiger Offline
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Post: #29
RE: The missed layups
(12-16-2020 09:55 PM)Mimi Wrote:  Perhaps the most maddening thing I’ve seen in 40 years

Worse than missed free throws

You miss some bunnies, but our kids miss an ungodly amount of them

Getting great shots and missing them all

3's and dunks are all that'll get you on SportsCenter. That's all that matters, baby!
12-17-2020 12:45 AM
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SeñorTiger Offline
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Post: #30
RE: The missed layups
(12-17-2020 12:09 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  
(12-17-2020 12:00 AM)tigers0830 Wrote:  
(12-16-2020 11:41 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  
(12-16-2020 11:29 PM)tigers0830 Wrote:  
(12-16-2020 11:26 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  The parrots on this board are comical...

Right now he is better than Boogie.

Dude no he's not

The numbers say lineups with Alo on the floor are better than lineups with Boogie on the floor.

Offensively before today...We scored about the same number of points per possession with Alo or Boogie on the floor.

Defensively before today...We give up less points per possession when Alo is on the floor than when Boogie is on the floor.

It really aint that hard.

The number don't tell the whole story. I'm so sick of people using analytics and stats to defend Lomax.

Use your damn eyes. Lomax still in year 3 makes the same dumb mistakes game after game after game. He gambles on defense way too much leaving other defenders out to dry. He drives in the paint with no strategy and then throws a wild shot at the rim. Add all this to Lomax is absolutely zero threat on the offensive end.

Now I'm not saying Boogie is some mega star, because he's not, but he's better than Lomax.

He definitely has more upside than Lomax...I don't think there is any doubt there.

But right now he is not playing better.

You can argue against it all you want...But when the team Scores the same and allows less with Lomax lineups. That clearly means when Lomax is on the floor the team is better than when Boogie is on the floor.

Does Boogie have the talent to be better than Lomax...Absolutely. Is he realizing that talent right now...Absolutely not.

You are taking an analytic with multiple variables, isolating one (Alo and Boogie), and acting like it is the only changing variable while everything else remains the same. You are massively over simplifying what is really a subjective analytic.

For the sake of extreme illustration. I play for the LA Lakers. When I am on the court, I also have Anthony Davis, Dennis Schroder, Kyle Kuzma and Marc Gasol. The other team is playing their 3rd team. They do a line sub and bring in Lebron and a bunch of nobodies while the other team subs in their starters. If you look at points per possession for and against and simply isolate me vs. Lebron am I all of sudden better than Lebron?

The point being there are a lot variables that play into that analytic so using it as the be all end all is pretty short sighted.
12-17-2020 12:54 AM
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SeñorTiger Offline
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Post: #31
RE: The missed layups
As for missed layups our guys never go straight up and finish. They are constantly going up flipping the ball up with one arm, fading, falling and everything else except going up with two hands on the ball and strong expecting to finish. Simply put, they go up weak and trying to avoid contact.
12-17-2020 12:56 AM
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Stammers Offline
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Post: #32
RE: The missed layups
(12-16-2020 11:26 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  
(12-16-2020 11:25 PM)3rdgenerationtiger Wrote:  
(12-16-2020 10:58 PM)rolexjames Wrote:  Teams have started to isolate Nolley and Lomax on D and go at them.

Lomax needs to be isolated on the bench.

The parrots on this board are comical...

Right now he is better than Boogie.

Posters go at each other, but the bottom line is that Lomax, Boogie and Baugh are all horrible point guards right now. A big reason for that is because the offense is so bad. A good offense would bail them out.
12-17-2020 01:33 AM
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macgar32 Offline
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Post: #33
RE: The missed layups
(12-17-2020 12:54 AM)SeñorTiger Wrote:  
(12-17-2020 12:09 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  
(12-17-2020 12:00 AM)tigers0830 Wrote:  
(12-16-2020 11:41 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  
(12-16-2020 11:29 PM)tigers0830 Wrote:  Dude no he's not

The numbers say lineups with Alo on the floor are better than lineups with Boogie on the floor.

Offensively before today...We scored about the same number of points per possession with Alo or Boogie on the floor.

Defensively before today...We give up less points per possession when Alo is on the floor than when Boogie is on the floor.

It really aint that hard.

The number don't tell the whole story. I'm so sick of people using analytics and stats to defend Lomax.

Use your damn eyes. Lomax still in year 3 makes the same dumb mistakes game after game after game. He gambles on defense way too much leaving other defenders out to dry. He drives in the paint with no strategy and then throws a wild shot at the rim. Add all this to Lomax is absolutely zero threat on the offensive end.

Now I'm not saying Boogie is some mega star, because he's not, but he's better than Lomax.

He definitely has more upside than Lomax...I don't think there is any doubt there.

But right now he is not playing better.

You can argue against it all you want...But when the team Scores the same and allows less with Lomax lineups. That clearly means when Lomax is on the floor the team is better than when Boogie is on the floor.

Does Boogie have the talent to be better than Lomax...Absolutely. Is he realizing that talent right now...Absolutely not.

You are taking an analytic with multiple variables, isolating one (Alo and Boogie), and acting like it is the only changing variable while everything else remains the same. You are massively over simplifying what is really a subjective analytic.

For the sake of extreme illustration. I play for the LA Lakers. When I am on the court, I also have Anthony Davis, Dennis Schroder, Kyle Kuzma and Marc Gasol. The other team is playing their 3rd team. They do a line sub and bring in Lebron and a bunch of nobodies while the other team subs in their starters. If you look at points per possession for and against and simply isolate me vs. Lebron am I all of sudden better than Lebron?

The point being there are a lot variables that play into that analytic so using it as the be all end all is pretty short sighted.

You are absolutely right with your statement.

But Penny doesn't platoon players. He doesn't play certain players together more than others. Once you start to get more and more data and it begins to trend...This is the same with any statistic.

While the metric is not perfect it is much closer to reality than looking at points and assists (Same exact metric used by Kenpom).
(This post was last modified: 12-17-2020 08:42 AM by macgar32.)
12-17-2020 08:25 AM
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holyterror Offline
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Post: #34
RE: The missed layups
that was 2 big free throws Alo hit late in the game.

I do wish he'd stop jumping in the air before deciding what to do with the ball, tho. And, BTW, Alo was not the only one who did that last night.
12-17-2020 08:43 AM
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founder20 Offline
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Post: #35
RE: The missed layups
Alo from the first 30 minutes should never leave the bench. Alo from the last 10 minutes is actually the point guard we need. He was consistently driving into the lane and making the right pass when the defense converged. That's an Alo that makes the team better. It's when he drives and his only intent is to try to get fouled that he kills us, or when he suddenly thinks he's James Harden and shoots step-back threes.

He also needs to learn when to gamble on defense. He's quick enough to stay in front of his man and strong enough to keep from being pushed around, but he has to learn when not to gamble. Like when there's 5 seconds on the shot clock and his man has his back to the basket 18 feet away from it. That was maddening.

I'm hopeful it finally clicked for him the last 10 minutes. That's the first extended stretch I remember him going without looking for a foul, but instead only being interested in driving and kicking.
12-17-2020 08:44 AM
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cscottl1981 Offline
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Post: #36
The missed layups
(12-16-2020 11:26 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  
(12-16-2020 11:25 PM)3rdgenerationtiger Wrote:  
(12-16-2020 10:58 PM)rolexjames Wrote:  Teams have started to isolate Nolley and Lomax on D and go at them.

Lomax needs to be isolated on the bench.

The parrots on this board are comical...

Right now he is better than Boogie.


His shot selection is horrific. In general, he needs to shoot less.
12-17-2020 08:50 AM
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cscottl1981 Offline
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Post: #37
The missed layups
The good news is, Williams looks like he can make a layup/dunk. We desperately needed a big who has some offensive abilities.
12-17-2020 08:52 AM
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macgar32 Offline
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Post: #38
RE: The missed layups
(12-17-2020 08:44 AM)founder20 Wrote:  Alo from the first 30 minutes should never leave the bench. Alo from the last 10 minutes is actually the point guard we need. He was consistently driving into the lane and making the right pass when the defense converged. That's an Alo that makes the team better. It's when he drives and his only intent is to try to get fouled that he kills us, or when he suddenly thinks he's James Harden and shoots step-back threes.

He also needs to learn when to gamble on defense. He's quick enough to stay in front of his man and strong enough to keep from being pushed around, but he has to learn when not to gamble. Like when there's 5 seconds on the shot clock and his man has his back to the basket 18 feet away from it. That was maddening.

I'm hopeful it finally clicked for him the last 10 minutes. That's the first extended stretch I remember him going without looking for a foul, but instead only being interested in driving and kicking.

While I agree with your assessment of Lomaxs play.

He takes waaaaaay too many risks, whether that is fancy passes or going for steals. On most good teams Lomax wouldn't play nearly as many minutes. The issue is who do you replace him with. They all have their warts...Why people want to gang up on Lomax I do not know.
(This post was last modified: 12-17-2020 09:04 AM by macgar32.)
12-17-2020 08:53 AM
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macgar32 Offline
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Post: #39
RE: The missed layups
(12-17-2020 12:22 AM)memtigbb Wrote:  
(12-17-2020 12:09 AM)macgar32 Wrote:  
(12-17-2020 12:00 AM)tigers0830 Wrote:  
(12-16-2020 11:41 PM)macgar32 Wrote:  
(12-16-2020 11:29 PM)tigers0830 Wrote:  Dude no he's not

The numbers say lineups with Alo on the floor are better than lineups with Boogie on the floor.

Offensively before today...We scored about the same number of points per possession with Alo or Boogie on the floor.

Defensively before today...We give up less points per possession when Alo is on the floor than when Boogie is on the floor.

It really aint that hard.

The number don't tell the whole story. I'm so sick of people using analytics and stats to defend Lomax.

Use your damn eyes. Lomax still in year 3 makes the same dumb mistakes game after game after game. He gambles on defense way too much leaving other defenders out to dry. He drives in the paint with no strategy and then throws a wild shot at the rim. Add all this to Lomax is absolutely zero threat on the offensive end.

Now I'm not saying Boogie is some mega star, because he's not, but he's better than Lomax.

He definitely has more upside than Lomax...I don't think there is any doubt there.

But right now he is not playing better.

You can argue against it all you want...But when the team Scores the same and allows less with Lomax lineups. That clearly means when Lomax is on the floor the team is better than when Boogie is on the floor.

Does Boogie have the talent to be better than Lomax...Absolutely. Is he realizing that talent right now...Absolutely not.

I agree with this fully. I know the numbers and by the numbers ALo does have an advantage. The issue I have with it is the ceilings and what we need. IMO ALo is what he is, he is at his ceiling. What he is right now, at his ceiling, isnt good enough to make us a tournament team. Where Boogie is right now isnt good enough to make us a tournament team. BUT, Boogie has a LOT of room for improvement. It can only go up if he is given the time and focus on running the offense.

The hard fact is, we needed a PG bad this offseason and just didnt land one.

I agree...

Lomax is not going to get you to the promised land...Nowhere near it right now.

But the question becomes do you sacrifice the teams current chances for future rewards.

I say you play whichever one is helping you more that day...If Boogie is making outside shots it is Boogie...If he is not it is Lomax. Recruiting is the answer at this point but that does you no good today.
(This post was last modified: 12-17-2020 09:02 AM by macgar32.)
12-17-2020 08:58 AM
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holyterror Offline
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Post: #40
RE: The missed layups
(12-17-2020 08:52 AM)cscottl1981 Wrote:  The good news is, Williams looks like he can make a layup/dunk. We desperately needed a big who has some offensive abilities.

Yeah, he was very impressive. I see what Penny means.
We might have seen the last of Lance Thomas for a while.
12-17-2020 09:06 AM
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