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CHALLENGE: A 36 Team College Football "Upper Tier"
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schmolik Offline
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Post: #1
CHALLENGE: A 36 Team College Football "Upper Tier"
I want to spin this discussion away from another thread cluttering another topic: https://csnbbs.com/thread-911884-post-17...id17136466

The goal here according to the original poster, JRSec, is to create a "college football's upper tier". He also mentioned "The League Concept. In short the placing of all of the best football programs and brands into one league."

I have discussed several times the concept of moving Oklahoma and Texas away from the Big 12 into other conferences. The premise is by keeping them in the Big 12 you have to pay them a good rate but you have to pay the "Little 8" members the same first/second tier rate and you are overpaying them. Move Oklahoma/Texas to the Big Ten or SEC and you don't have to pay the rest of the Big 12 nearly as much money. Even if you have to pay OU/UT's new conference more, you could net pay less.

I can take this further. What if we were able to streamline and take out the fat from all the conferences and just have a league/conference of "the best" as JRSec said? Now what does "best" mean? I can't speak for JRSec but when selecting some of the teams he mentioned things such as "viewers", "recruits", "passion", "small state", "could be competitive if they tried", "In the SEC only one doesn't try or have attendance". So those factors certainly could be tied in. It shouldn't necessarily be the 36 best programs. Imagine you are trying to pitch this group of teams to one or more of the major network executives. Could you get them on board vs. the current setup? Would college football overall be more popular than it is now. Of course if you are one of the schools that is downgrading you would be less interested and we would be going from 65 to 36. But if the Alabama and Ohio State fans are more interested because they don't have to play the Rutgers and Mississippi States every year and get more high quality games, TV ratings go up and that might make up for the lost teams' fanbases. Other than Baylor fans, is anyone really going to miss them in college football's upper echelon?

His list contained 36 teams so I'll use that as a cap. If the goal of the league is to be "national" it has to have representation in all parts of the country and have more representation in areas with more population. But you can't leave out the top brands or passionate fan bases either. So my list tries to account for all of that.

I'll try two different arrangements with the same 36 teams.

A 4 by 9:
East: Maryland, Michigan, Michigan State, North Carolina, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Virginia Tech
South: Alabama, Auburn, Clemson, Florida, Florida State, Georgia, Kentucky, Miami, Tennessee
Midwest: Illinois, Iowa, LSU, Missouri, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Texas, Texas A&M, Wisconsin
West: Arizona State, BYU, California, Colorado, Oregon, Stanford, UCLA, USC, Washington

A 6x6 with 3 "conferences" combining two divisions:
Clemson, Maryland, North Carolina, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Virginia Tech
Illinois, Michigan, Michigan State, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Wisconsin

Florida, Florida State, Georgia, Kentucky, Miami, Tennessee
Alabama, Auburn, LSU, Oklahoma, Texas, Texas A&M

Arizona State, BYU, Colorado, Iowa, Missouri, Nebraska
California, Oregon, Stanford, UCLA, USC, Washington

Makeup by conference:
SEC (9): Alabama, Auburn, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, LSU, Missouri, Tennessee, Texas A&M
Big Ten (9): Illinois, Iowa, Maryland, Michigan, Michigan State, Nebraska, Ohio State, Penn State, Wisconsin
Pac 12 (8): Arizona State, California, Colorado, Oregon, Stanford, UCLA, USC, Washington
ACC (6): Clemson, Miami, North Carolina, Notre Dame, Pittsburgh, Virginia Tech
Big 12 (2): Oklahoma, Texas
Other (1): BYU

Who do you think didn't make it that should? Who should they replace? Who's your list of 36? Knock yourself out! But be ready to defend your choices to me as well as other CSNBBS readers!

Each team will play 8 league games. In the 4x9, obviously you would play the eight teams in your division. You can then play four more games. Non division league games would be encouraged but obviously teams are still going to want seven home games a season so they'll still want to play "buy" teams that don't need return home games as opposed to standard home and homes. In the 3x12, you would play the five teams in your division and either three or four games in the cross division (that could be negotiated).

Each format would have semifinals and a national championship. In the 4x9, it's the four division winners determined by true round robin play with the "top" team playing the "bottom" team and the #2 and #3 teams playing in the SF's. In the 6x6/3x12, the six divisional winners would play for three league championships. Then there would be a final four but with the three league winners and one wild card.

Which of these formats do you like better?

In terms of "bowls", I would say this league would retain the pick of the litter bowls. The top four teams need three "bowls", two semifinals and one championship (I won't have double hosting as is the case currently). I'll guesstimate most of these teams will find enough cupcakes that well more than half of them will still be "bowl eligible" every year (six wins in a regular season). So I will reserve 14 bowls, the current NY6 (Rose, Sugar, Orange, Cotton, Peach, Fiesta) along with the Citrus, Outback, Gator, Holiday, Alamo, Las Vegas, Music City, and Texas? (the one in Houston). That will accommodate up to 26 of the 36 teams in a given year.
12-06-2020 08:06 AM
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mlb Offline
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CHALLENGE: A 36 Team College Football "Upper Tier"
Can't take anything that includes Kentucky, Illinois, and Pittsburgh seriously. None of them have done a thing of note in a generation if not longer. That's not the top 36 in any way.

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(This post was last modified: 12-06-2020 09:41 AM by mlb.)
12-06-2020 09:41 AM
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jaybird44 Offline
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RE: CHALLENGE: A 36 Team College Football "Upper Tier"
(12-06-2020 08:06 AM)schmolik Wrote:  I want to spin this discussion away from another thread cluttering another topic: https://csnbbs.com/thread-911884-post-17...id17136466

The goal here according to the original poster, JRSec, is to create a "college football's upper tier". He also mentioned "The League Concept. In short the placing of all of the best football programs and brands into one league."

I have discussed several times the concept of moving Oklahoma and Texas away from the Big 12 into other conferences. The premise is by keeping them in the Big 12 you have to pay them a good rate but you have to pay the "Little 8" members the same first/second tier rate and you are overpaying them. Move Oklahoma/Texas to the Big Ten or SEC and you don't have to pay the rest of the Big 12 nearly as much money. Even if you have to pay OU/UT's new conference more, you could net pay less.

I can take this further. What if we were able to streamline and take out the fat from all the conferences and just have a league/conference of "the best" as JRSec said? Now what does "best" mean? I can't speak for JRSec but when selecting some of the teams he mentioned things such as "viewers", "recruits", "passion", "small state", "could be competitive if they tried", "In the SEC only one doesn't try or have attendance". So those factors certainly could be tied in. It shouldn't necessarily be the 36 best programs. Imagine you are trying to pitch this group of teams to one or more of the major network executives. Could you get them on board vs. the current setup? Would college football overall be more popular than it is now. Of course if you are one of the schools that is downgrading you would be less interested and we would be going from 65 to 36. But if the Alabama and Ohio State fans are more interested because they don't have to play the Rutgers and Mississippi States every year and get more high quality games, TV ratings go up and that might make up for the lost teams' fanbases. Other than Baylor fans, is anyone really going to miss them in college football's upper echelon?

His list contained 36 teams so I'll use that as a cap. If the goal of the league is to be "national" it has to have representation in all parts of the country and have more representation in areas with more population. But you can't leave out the top brands or passionate fan bases either. So my list tries to account for all of that.

I'll try two different arrangements with the same 36 teams.

A 4 by 9:
East: Maryland, Michigan, Michigan State, North Carolina, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Virginia Tech
South: Alabama, Auburn, Clemson, Florida, Florida State, Georgia, Kentucky, Miami, Tennessee
Midwest: Illinois, Iowa, LSU, Missouri, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Texas, Texas A&M, Wisconsin
West: Arizona State, BYU, California, Colorado, Oregon, Stanford, UCLA, USC, Washington

A 6x6 with 3 "conferences" combining two divisions:
Clemson, Maryland, North Carolina, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Virginia Tech
Illinois, Michigan, Michigan State, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Wisconsin

Florida, Florida State, Georgia, Kentucky, Miami, Tennessee
Alabama, Auburn, LSU, Oklahoma, Texas, Texas A&M

Arizona State, BYU, Colorado, Iowa, Missouri, Nebraska
California, Oregon, Stanford, UCLA, USC, Washington

Makeup by conference:
SEC (9): Alabama, Auburn, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, LSU, Missouri, Tennessee, Texas A&M
Big Ten (9): Illinois, Iowa, Maryland, Michigan, Michigan State, Nebraska, Ohio State, Penn State, Wisconsin
Pac 12 (8): Arizona State, California, Colorado, Oregon, Stanford, UCLA, USC, Washington
ACC (6): Clemson, Miami, North Carolina, Notre Dame, Pittsburgh, Virginia Tech
Big 12 (2): Oklahoma, Texas
Other (1): BYU

Who do you think didn't make it that should? Who should they replace? Who's your list of 36? Knock yourself out! But be ready to defend your choices to me as well as other CSNBBS readers!

Each team will play 8 league games. In the 4x9, obviously you would play the eight teams in your division. You can then play four more games. Non division league games would be encouraged but obviously teams are still going to want seven home games a season so they'll still want to play "buy" teams that don't need return home games as opposed to standard home and homes. In the 3x12, you would play the five teams in your division and either three or four games in the cross division (that could be negotiated).

Each format would have semifinals and a national championship. In the 4x9, it's the four division winners determined by true round robin play with the "top" team playing the "bottom" team and the #2 and #3 teams playing in the SF's. In the 6x6/3x12, the six divisional winners would play for three league championships. Then there would be a final four but with the three league winners and one wild card.

Which of these formats do you like better?

In terms of "bowls", I would say this league would retain the pick of the litter bowls. The top four teams need three "bowls", two semifinals and one championship (I won't have double hosting as is the case currently). I'll guesstimate most of these teams will find enough cupcakes that well more than half of them will still be "bowl eligible" every year (six wins in a regular season). So I will reserve 14 bowls, the current NY6 (Rose, Sugar, Orange, Cotton, Peach, Fiesta) along with the Citrus, Outback, Gator, Holiday, Alamo, Las Vegas, Music City, and Texas? (the one in Houston). That will accommodate up to 26 of the 36 teams in a given year.
I'll take your challange
EAST
Army
Penn state
Navy
Virginia tech
North carolina
Clemson
Georgia
West virginia
Miami
MIDEAST
Florida state
Alabama
Auburn
Tennessee
Florida
Ohio state
Notre dame
Michigan
Michigan state
MIDWEST
Wisconsin
Iowa
Nebraska
Oklahoma
Oklahoma state
Texas
Texas A&M
TCU
LSU
WEST
Washington
Colorado
BYU
Oregon
Utah
Stanford
UCLA
USC
Boise state
12-06-2020 10:07 AM
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ken d Offline
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RE: CHALLENGE: A 36 Team College Football "Upper Tier"
I'll play, with the full understanding that this is a hypothetical exercise only, with zero chance of ever being implemented, because that's not how the system works. Schools associate with others for lots of reasons, and this isn't one of them.

I would prefer the 3X12 model, with two six team divisions in each conference.

All divisions are listed in order of their ten year average Sagarin rating.

West:
Oregon, Stanford, Washington, Southern Cal, UCLA and California
Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, TCU, Texas A&M, Texas and Arkansas

South:
Alabama, LSU, Auburn, Mississippi State, Ole Miss and Tennessee
Clemson, Georgia, Florida State, Florida, South Carolina and Georgia Tech

North:
Ohio State, Wisconsin, Michigan, Iowa, Missouri and Nebraska
Notre Dame, Michigan State, Penn State, Virginia Tech, Miami and North Carolina

Clearly, these aren't the 36 "best" football programs. They are as close as I can come to being the best grouping of 36 schools taking into account brand values and geography.

I am assuming that each school plays every school in its division every year and each school in the other division every other year, for a total of 8 conference games, and are free to schedule their four OOC games against anybody they want to. For some, that doesn't leave room for buy games. As an example, UNC may want to play Virginia, Duke, NC State and Wake Forest every year OOC. For that reason alone, they might opt out of this league.
12-07-2020 11:23 AM
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Wahoowa84 Offline
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RE: CHALLENGE: A 36 Team College Football "Upper Tier"
In order of the value of each program...a geographic and balanced 4 x 9 FBS:

East - UGA, Florida, Penn State, Florida State, UNC, Clemson, Duke, South Carolina and Virginia Tech (P5 left out and available for expansion: UVA, NC State, Miami, Georgia Tech, Maryland, Wake Forest and Rutgers)

North - Ohio State, Michigan, Wisconsin, Notre Dame, Michigan State, Iowa, Indiana, Minnesota and Illinois (P5 left out and available for expansion: Purdue, Northwestern, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, Iowa State, West Virginia and Boston College)

South - Alabama, LSU, Tennessee, Auburn, Texas A&M, Kentucky, Arkansas, Ole Miss and Louisville (P5 left out and available for expansion: Kansas, Miss State, Kansas State, TCU, Baylor, Missouri and Vanderbilt)

West - Texas, Oklahoma, UCLA, Southern California, Stanford, Washington, Nebraska, Oregon and Arizona State (P5 left out and available for expansion: Cal-Berkeley, Oklahoma State, Arizona, Utah, Texas Tech, Oregon State, Colorado and Washington State)

Issues created include 1) the BIG and SEC need to be broken, 2) Texas, Oklahoma and Nebraska need to travel west and 3) this is not just about football (basketball carries some weight).


I had to substitute NCState for Louisville, Kansas for Minnesota, and UVA for VT to make the 6 x 6 conferences better:

Northeast: Ohio State, Penn State, Notre Dame, UNC, Duke and UVA

Southeast: UGA, Florida, Florida State, Clemson, South Carolina and NC State

South: Alabama, LSU, Auburn, Tennessee, Kentucky and Ole Miss

Central: Texas, Oklahoma, Texas A&M, Nebraska, Arkansas and Kansas

West: UCLA, USC, Washington, Stanford, Oregon and Arizona State

North: Michigan, Wisconsin, Michigan State, Iowa, Indiana and Illinois

In this allocation, the South is very strong and the West is relatively weaker.
(This post was last modified: 12-07-2020 05:34 PM by Wahoowa84.)
12-07-2020 02:21 PM
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RE: CHALLENGE: A 36 Team College Football "Upper Tier"
SOUTHEASTERN CONFERENCE
SOUTH DIVISION
Alabama
Florida
Georgia
Auburn
LSU
Tennessee

EASTERN DIVISION
Notre Dame
Clemson
Florida State
Miami
North Carolina
Virginia Tech

Championship Game: ORANGE BOWL
Semifinals: Atlanta, Charlotte

BIG TEN
MIDWEST DIVISION
Ohio State
Michigan
Penn State
Michigan State
Wisconsin
Iowa

PACIFIC DIVISION
UCLA
Stanford
California
Oregon
Washington
Colorado

Championship game: ROSE BOWL
Semifinals: Indianapolis, Santa Clara

B12
EAST DIVISION
Texas
Oklahoma
Texas A&M
Nebraska
Arkansas
Oklahoma State

WEST DIVISION
USC
Arizona State
BYU
Utah
Boise State
TCU

Championship Game: COTTON BOWL
Semifinals: Arlington, Las Vegas
12-07-2020 02:22 PM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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RE: CHALLENGE: A 36 Team College Football "Upper Tier"
I think choosing the teams is frought with difficulty.

There's 15 teams you include no matter what:
Auburn
Alabama
Georgia
Florida
LSU
Texas A&M
Clemson
Michigan
Ohio State
Penn State
Notre Dame
Texas
Oklahoma
Washington
USC

7 Schools to add based on overwhelming fan support (attandance consistently over 70-80k)
Tennessee
Nebraska
South Carolina
Wisconsin
Iowa
Michigan State
UCLA (not consistently this high, but frequently enough)

2 Schools to add based on high recent success & decent fan support:
Florida State
Oregon


After these 24, it's a crapshoot. Who you pick depends on what your goals are


If you go purely by fan support at games, the next tier is:
BYU
Iowa State
Oklahoma State
Missouri
Ole Miss
Purdue
NC State
Virginia Tech

If you go solely by recent performance, the next tier is pretty large, including the next 25 P5 teams along with Boise and the upper 1/3 of the American.


And of course, there's some schools you'd consider solely because their region is too big to be completely unrepresented:
Boston College
Syracuse or Rutgers
Stanford and/or California
Illinois or Northwestern
Maryland and/or Virginia and/or Navy
BYU , Utah, or Colorado
NC State or UNC
Arizona or Arizona State
12-07-2020 03:15 PM
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RE: CHALLENGE: A 36 Team College Football "Upper Tier"
Southeast
Alabama, Auburn, Florida, Florida State, Georgia, Tennessee

Atlantic
Clemson, Georgia Tech, Louisville, Miami, North Carolina, Virginia Tech

Midwest
Illinois, Michigan, Michigan State, Notre Dame, Ohio State, Penn State

Central
Colorado, Iowa, Minnesota, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Wisconsin

Southwest
Arkansas, LSU, Missouri, Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech

Pacific
Arizona State, Oregon, Stanford, UCLA, USC, Washington
12-07-2020 04:39 PM
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RE: CHALLENGE: A 36 Team College Football "Upper Tier"
(12-07-2020 03:15 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  I think choosing the teams is frought with difficulty.

There's 15 teams you include no matter what:
Auburn
Alabama
Georgia
Florida
LSU
Texas A&M
Clemson
Michigan
Ohio State
Penn State
Notre Dame
Texas
Oklahoma
Washington
USC

7 Schools to add based on overwhelming fan support (attandance consistently over 70-80k)
Tennessee
Nebraska
South Carolina
Wisconsin
Iowa
Michigan State
UCLA (not consistently this high, but frequently enough)

2 Schools to add based on high recent success & decent fan support:
Florida State
Oregon


After these 24, it's a crapshoot. Who you pick depends on what your goals are


If you go purely by fan support at games, the next tier is:
BYU
Iowa State
Oklahoma State
Missouri
Ole Miss
Purdue
NC State
Virginia Tech

If you go solely by recent performance, the next tier is pretty large, including the next 25 P5 teams along with Boise and the upper 1/3 of the American.


And of course, there's some schools you'd consider solely because their region is too big to be completely unrepresented:
Boston College
Syracuse or Rutgers
Stanford and/or California
Illinois or Northwestern
Maryland and/or Virginia and/or Navy
BYU , Utah, or Colorado
NC State or UNC
Arizona or Arizona State

It is absolutely a crapshoot after the "obvious" schools. After those 24, there's about 20-30 schools that are fairly equal to me. However, if I had to pick 36, here's where I end up.

PAC: California, Oregon, Stanford, UCLA, USC, Washington
XII: Oklahoma, Oklahoma St, Texas, Texas Tech
B1G: Iowa, Michigan, Michigan St, Minnesota, Nebraska, Ohio St, Penn St, Wisconsin
SEC: Alabama, Arkansas, Auburn, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, LSU, Mississippi, Mississippi St, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas A&M
ACC: Clemson, Florida St, Georgia Tech, Miami, Virginia Tech
IND: Notre Dame

I felt comfortable after narrowing it down to 38 and made the following decisions which were difficult decisions.

Texas Tech over TCU
Kentucky over Louisville

Here are two 6x6 iterations

1) I tried to keep somewhat current alignments together

Pacific: California, Oregon, Stanford, UCLA, USC, Washington
Central: Iowa, Nebraska, Oklahoma, Oklahoma St, Texas, Texas Tech
Midwest: Michigan, Michigan St, Minnesota, Ohio St, Penn St, Wisconsin
Atlantic: Clemson, Florida St, Georgia Tech, Miami, Notre Dame, Virginia Tech
Gulf: Alabama, Arkansas, LSU, Mississippi, Mississippi St, Texas A&M
Southeast: Auburn, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, South Carolina, Tennessee

2) I tried to make it more regional

Pacific: California, Oregon, Stanford, UCLA, USC, Washington
Southwest: Arkansas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma St, Texas, Texas A&M, Texas Tech
Midwest: Iowa, Michigan, Minnesota, Nebraska, Ohio St, Wisconsin
South: Alabama, Auburn, LSU, Mississippi, Mississippi St, Tennessee
Southeast: Clemson, Florida, Florida St, Georgia, Georgia Tech, South Carolina
Atlantic: Kentucky, Miami, Michigan St, Notre Dame, Penn St, Virginia Tech
12-07-2020 04:49 PM
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RE: CHALLENGE: A 36 Team College Football "Upper Tier"
The OP falsely assumes that the Big 10 other than the top 5 teams or so has much value. It was called the Big 2, little 8 for many, many years. For very good reasons.

Every conference other than the SEC has a clearly much more valuable top quarter to third. With the SEC its about 2/3 carrying the bottom.

With this exercise you have to make some assumptions:
1) Does basketball count? If so, schools like Kansas, Kentucky and Duke are essential even though they don't make it on football.
2) Are you going to keep teams for geographic reasons?
3) If you don't have detail TV ratings, what do you look at? Attendance? Success on the field? A school like Miami FL has to be included based on success on the field, but you might question it looking at attendance.
12-07-2020 05:12 PM
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RE: CHALLENGE: A 36 Team College Football "Upper Tier"
(12-07-2020 05:12 PM)bullet Wrote:  The OP falsely assumes that the Big 10 other than the top 5 teams or so has much value. It was called the Big 2, little 8 for many, many years. For very good reasons.

Every conference other than the SEC has a clearly much more valuable top quarter to third. With the SEC its about 2/3 carrying the bottom.

With this exercise you have to make some assumptions:
1) Does basketball count? If so, schools like Kansas, Kentucky and Duke are essential even though they don't make it on football.
2) Are you going to keep teams for geographic reasons?
3) If you don't have detail TV ratings, what do you look at? Attendance? Success on the field? A school like Miami FL has to be included based on success on the field, but you might question it looking at attendance.

If I was told I could use just one metric to choose the top 36 or whatever football programs, I would choose home attendance.

Nothing else is so closely correlated with the prestige/value of a program. It's not perfect, a program like Miami comes to mind as one who's value is higher than its attendance, but it's darn close.
(This post was last modified: 12-07-2020 05:22 PM by quo vadis.)
12-07-2020 05:20 PM
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RE: CHALLENGE: A 36 Team College Football "Upper Tier"
From the NCAA 2019 Home attendance

Total Home Attendance

No. School Games Attendance Average
1. Michigan 7 780,215 111,459
2. Penn St. 7 739,747 105,678
3. Ohio St. 7 723,679 103,383
4. Texas A&M 7 711,258 101,608
5. Alabama 7 707,817 101,117
6. LSU 7 705,892 100,842
7. Texas 6 577,834 96,306
8. Georgia 7 649,722 92,817
9. Nebraska 7 625,436 89,348
10. Tennessee 8 702,912 87,864
11. Auburn 7 600,355 85,765
12. Florida 6 508,103 84,684
13. Oklahoma 6 499,533 83,256
14. Clemson 7 566,074 80,868
15. South Carolina 7 545,737 77,962
16. Wisconsin 7 535,301 76,472
17. Notre Dame 7 534,017 76,288
18. Washington 7 477,668 68,238
19. Michigan St. 7 474,731 67,819
20. Iowa 7 458,897 65,557
21. Iowa St. 7 418,561 59,794
22. BYU 6 357,281 59,547
23. Southern California 6 356,150 59,358
24. Virginia Tech 7 408,049 58,293
25. NC State 7 395,264 56,466
26. Mississippi St. 7 393,277 56,182
27. West Virginia 6 335,443 55,907
28. Oklahoma St. 6 328,902 54,817
29. Missouri 7 379,119 54,160
30. Purdue 7 378,147 54,021

To this I would add Oregon, Miami, Ole Miss, Arizona State, Louisville, and Arkansas.

Regional players needed for regional interest but not supporting in person attendance - UNC, Pitt, Stanford, Colorado, Syracuse, and Utah.

What's left does not support in person football, is duplicated in a region, or had bad football. That's NW, Vandy, Duke, BC, WF, Indiana, Illinois, Rutgers, Minnesota, MD, K-State, Kansas, TT, Baylor, TCU, Arizona, Cal, UCLA, Oregon State, and Washington State.

When you go past 36, you start to run into schools that are experiencing cultural challenges to football - academics, gender of the school, local tastes, resulting in low attendance, etc.
(This post was last modified: 12-07-2020 05:53 PM by Statefan.)
12-07-2020 05:22 PM
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Post: #13
RE: CHALLENGE: A 36 Team College Football "Upper Tier"
Here's my list with 3 12 team conferences-north, south and west. And actually Kentucky did make it based on attendance. North Carolina didn't.

Primary was success. There are 12 schools who are generally recognized as kings based on their championships (rank in 4 year average attendance is in parentheses).
USC (22), Texas (7), Oklahoma (12), Nebraska (10), Ohio St.(2), Michigan(1), Penn St.(3), Notre Dame (15), Alabama(4), Florida (13), Florida St.(20), Miami, FL (25)
Then there are another 8 schools who, with the above, have dominated the top 3 and top 5 rankings over the last 35 years (and really the last 50).
Washington (19), Oregon (36), Colorado (42), Auburn (11), Georgia (9), Tennessee (8), LSU (5), Clemson (14)

These 20 schools have the last 35 championships (all but OR, GA and WA have AP titles) and 97 of the 105 top 3 finishes during that time. All have at least 2 top 3 and 4 top 5. Nobody else has more than 2 top 5 and only TCU has more than 1 top 3.

Next are schools that have done very well since the beginning of the BCS era.
TCU (48), Utah (44), Kansas St. (38), Missouri (37), Oklahoma St. (33), BYU (30), West Virginia (28), Virginia Tech (24), Michigan St. (18), Wisconsin (16)

Finally 6 more who are chosen primarily based on attendance, but have at least ocassionally had good teams
Texas A&M (6), South Carolina (17), Iowa (21), Arkansas (23), UCLA (34), Kentucky (35)

5 schools from 26 to 32 in attendance were left out for those below 36-Miss. St., NC St., Ole Miss, Iowa St., Texas Tech.


Michigan n
Ohio State n
Penn State n
Notre Dame n
Wisconsin n
Michigan State n
Iowa n
Kentucky n
Missouri n
Nebraska n
West Virginia n
Kansas State n
Alabama s
LSU s
Tennessee s
Georgia s
Auburn s
Florida s
Clemson s
South Carolina s
Florida State s
Arkansas s
Virginia Tech s
Miami, FL s
Texas A&M w
Texas w
Oklahoma w
Washington w
Southern Cal w
BYU w
Oklahoma State w
UCLA w
Oregon w
Colorado w
Utah w
TCU w
12-07-2020 05:52 PM
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Post: #14
RE: CHALLENGE: A 36 Team College Football "Upper Tier"
The only schools that have finished in the top 3 in the AP in the last 35 years that I didn't include:
Georgia Tech (45) (UPI champ 1990)
Stanford (54)

Only other schools with top 5 finishes I didn't include
Arizona St. (40)
Arizona (47)
Oregon ST. (63)
Boise ST. (67)
Syracuse. (61)
12-07-2020 06:10 PM
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Post: #15
RE: CHALLENGE: A 36 Team College Football "Upper Tier"
Of the teams I included, only Texas A&M, Iowa, Kentucky and Kansas St. do not have top 5 finishes in the last 35 years, but KSU has been a top 20 program since the 90s. Kentucky would be the first one out if I put Georgia Tech or Stanford in. (if you are curious about the choice of 35 years, I looked at the polls one time and noticed how consistent the top teams had been and so I analyzed the years since BYU won their title)
(This post was last modified: 12-07-2020 06:18 PM by bullet.)
12-07-2020 06:17 PM
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ken d Offline
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Post: #16
RE: CHALLENGE: A 36 Team College Football "Upper Tier"
[quote='bullet' pid='17142957' dateline='1607381566']
Here's my list with 3 12 team conferences-north, south and west. And actually Kentucky did make it based on attendance. North Carolina didn't.

Ultimately when I made my own list I decided that this exercise was about football only, not basketball. And, while neither UNC or UK have been very good at football, my observation is that Carolina, for reasons I've never understood, appears to be a brand more favored by the media, even in football.
12-07-2020 07:05 PM
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TrueBlueDrew Offline
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Post: #17
RE: CHALLENGE: A 36 Team College Football "Upper Tier"
East:
Georgia, Florida, Florida State, Clemson, Alabama, Auburn, Virginia Tech, Penn State, Ohio State, Michigan, Notre Dame, Tennessee

Center:
LSU, Texas, Texas A&M, Oklahoma, Nebraska, Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Missouri, Arkansas, Colorado, Kansas State

West:
Washington, Washington St, Oregon, Oregon St, USC, UCLA, Cal, Stanford, Arizona, Arizona State, BYU, Utah
12-07-2020 11:45 PM
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CrappiesCrappiesCrappiesCrappiesCrappies
Post: #18
RE: CHALLENGE: A 36 Team College Football "Upper Tier"
Make it easy.

SEC+B1G equals 28 teams. Add the XII for 38 teams. Make a few subs and adjustments.

Out: Rutgers, Maryland, Vandy, West Virginia.
In: Florida St, Clemson

36 there you go. No left coast teams (not FB country there).
12-08-2020 03:29 AM
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Wahoowa84 Offline
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Post: #19
RE: CHALLENGE: A 36 Team College Football "Upper Tier"
For football only, based on the final AP poll rankings (50% weight to historical...1935-2019; 50% weight to the playoff era... 1998-2019j:

Western Conference
Plains Division - Oklahoma, Texas, TCU, Texas A&M, Kansas State and Missouri
Pacific Division - Southern California, Oregon, Stanford, UCLA, Boise State and Washington

Southern Conference
Coast Division- UGA, Florida, Florida State, Clemson, Miami and Georgia Tech
Deep Division - Alabama, LSU, Auburn, Tennessee, Arkansas and Ole Miss

Northern Conference
Appalachia Division - Ohio State, Notre Dame, Penn State, Virginia Tech, West Virginia and Pittsburgh
Great Lakes Division- Michigan, Nebraska, Wisconsin, Michigan State, Iowa and Minnesota

Teams are listed (within their divisions) in the order of the AP poll standings. The geographic distribution for conferences and divisions worked perfectly for the first 34 teams...then chose Pittsburgh and Minnesota for the final two spots. The Panthers and Gophers had the highest historical scores within the geographic area. Other programs with comparable scores in the “northern” area could have been Louisville, South Carolina, Colorado and Maryland.

It’s nice to have one non-P5 program on the list of top football programs.
12-08-2020 12:30 PM
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Wahoowa84 Offline
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Post: #20
RE: CHALLENGE: A 36 Team College Football "Upper Tier"
(12-08-2020 12:30 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  For football only, based on the final AP poll rankings (50% weight to historical...1935-2019; 50% weight to the playoff era... 1998-2019j:

Western Conference
Plains Division - Oklahoma, Texas, TCU, Texas A&M, Kansas State and Missouri
Pacific Division - Southern California, Oregon, Stanford, UCLA, Boise State and Washington

Southern Conference
Coast Division- UGA, Florida, Florida State, Clemson, Miami and Georgia Tech
Deep Division - Alabama, LSU, Auburn, Tennessee, Arkansas and Ole Miss

Northern Conference
Appalachia Division - Ohio State, Notre Dame, Penn State, Virginia Tech, West Virginia and Pittsburgh
Great Lakes Division- Michigan, Nebraska, Wisconsin, Michigan State, Iowa and Minnesota

Teams are listed (within their divisions) in the order of the AP poll standings. The geographic distribution for conferences and divisions worked perfectly for the first 34 teams...then chose Pittsburgh and Minnesota for the final two spots. The Panthers and Gophers had the highest historical scores within the geographic area. Other programs with comparable scores in the “northern” area could have been Louisville, South Carolina, Colorado and Maryland.

It’s nice to have one non-P5 program on the list of top football programs.

Determined how to geographically align divisions without any manipulation. The top 36 programs per the weighted AP poll standings...

Western Conference
Texahoma Division - Oklahoma, Texas, TCU, Texas A&M, Oklahoma State and Baylor
Pacific Division - Southern California, Oregon, Stanford, UCLA, Boise State and Washington

Southern Conference
Coast Division- UGA, Florida, Florida State, Clemson, Miami and Georgia Tech
Deep Division - Alabama, LSU, Auburn, Tennessee, Arkansas and Ole Miss

Northern Conference
Industrial Division - Ohio State, Michigan, Penn State, Michigan State, Virginia Tech and West Virginia
Plains Division- Notre Dame, Nebraska, Wisconsin, Iowa, Kansas State and Missouri

Teams are listed (within their divisions) in the order of the AP poll standings. By current conference affiliation: SEC 10 of 14, B12 6 of 10, BIG 7 of 14, PAC 5 of 12, ACC 6 of 15 (including Notre Dame) and 1 non-P5 school.
(This post was last modified: 12-08-2020 01:38 PM by Wahoowa84.)
12-08-2020 01:34 PM
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