(11-09-2020 09:29 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Let’s play with this scenario:

The Eastern 8 is formed in 1976 with—

Penn St
Pitt
Rutgers
WVU
Villanova
UMass
George Washington
Duquesne

Penn St is able to convince BC and Syracuse to join on the condition that they beef up the basketball side with St John’s and Georgetown. They change the name to Eastern 12. Villanova football isn’t shuttered and stays DI-A by virtue of being in a conference with schools that meet the standard so they have a 7 member football conference. Temple football plays as an affiliate to make 8.

Miami (FL)’s rise to prominence merits them an invitation to join the Eastern 12. Talks occur with ND about joining but the best the Irish will give is Olympic sports and 5 football games/yr.

When the ACC goes hunting on 2003, the only taker they find in is VT.

——

Meanwhile, Providence, UConn, and Seton Hall were all left out so they are tasked with building their own conference. Rhode Island, Temple, St Bonaventure, St Joseph, LaSalle, and Fordham round out their 9 member league that later grows to 12 with Richmond, Xavier, and Dayton.

You still have the same fundamental problem the Big East had in our timeline upon adding football -- two sizable factions of FB-first and BB-first schools.

(11-09-2020 09:29 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Let’s play with this scenario:

The Eastern 8 is formed in 1976 with—

Penn St
Pitt
Rutgers
WVU
Villanova
UMass
George Washington
Duquesne

Penn St is able to convince BC and Syracuse to join on the condition that they beef up the basketball side with St John’s and Georgetown. They change the name to Eastern 12. Villanova football isn’t shuttered and stays DI-A by virtue of being in a conference with schools that meet the standard so they have a 7 member football conference. Temple football plays as an affiliate to make 8.

Miami (FL)’s rise to prominence merits them an invitation to join the Eastern 12. Talks occur with ND about joining but the best the Irish will give is Olympic sports and 5 football games/yr.

When the ACC goes hunting on 2003, the only taker they find in is VT.

——

Meanwhile, Providence, UConn, and Seton Hall were all left out so they are tasked with building their own conference. Rhode Island, Temple, St Bonaventure, St Joseph, LaSalle, and Fordham round out their 9 member league that later grows to 12 with Richmond, Xavier, and Dayton.

This could be a very formidable core for building a long-term viable Power conference. Penn State, Pitt, WVU, Syracuse, BC and Rutgers together since mid 1970s. Miami would be an essential member prior to the formation of the BCS; with Notre Dame in some ad hoc relationship.

The question of long-term survival depends on this Eastern 8 conference’s ability to coexist and prioritize football. For example,
1) Villanova may still have made the decision to de-prioritize football in the early 1980s. In addition, Rutgers and Temple didn’t really embrace football in the 70s, 80s or 90s...if the conference is carrying too much football dead-weight, then the better football programs may be tempted to look elsewhere. Seeking Villanova’s membership would have been worth the risk; Temple’s membership likely would hurt the long term viability.
2) Having competition with Catholic schools (Georgetown, St Johns, Villanova and BC) can help draw-in Notre Dame, but can also hinder the overall commitment to football. The Irish’s vocal need for independence, and their football media-rights contract, could have created tension with PSU. If UMass, GW and Duquesne are invited you are diluting the opportunity for football first decisions...without gaining much basketball strength.
3) Miami and VT really helped the football product in the 90s and early 00s. Stronger competition from their northern flank probably would have forced faster recognition by the ACC that a conference championship game would be a media revenue bonanza.

To forestall potential defections (PSU/Syracuse/Pitt to the B10; Miami/VT/WVU to the ACC), the Elite 8’s leadership would have needed to be fully committed to football first decisions. A potential 12-team league in the early 00s:
North: BC, Syracuse, Rutgers, PSU, Pitt and Miami
South: WVU, VT, Louisville, Cincinnati, Memphis and USF
The Backyard Brawl being the lone protected rivalry.

This Eastern Conference would have also been positioned for the 2010 cable channel expansion...going after Notre Dame (seeking a 6 or 7 game conference commitment) and Maryland.

(11-09-2020 10:45 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 09:29 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Let’s play with this scenario:

The Eastern 8 is formed in 1976 with—

Penn St
Pitt
Rutgers
WVU
Villanova
UMass
George Washington
Duquesne

Penn St is able to convince BC and Syracuse to join on the condition that they beef up the basketball side with St John’s and Georgetown. They change the name to Eastern 12. Villanova football isn’t shuttered and stays DI-A by virtue of being in a conference with schools that meet the standard so they have a 7 member football conference. Temple football plays as an affiliate to make 8.

Miami (FL)’s rise to prominence merits them an invitation to join the Eastern 12. Talks occur with ND about joining but the best the Irish will give is Olympic sports and 5 football games/yr.

When the ACC goes hunting on 2003, the only taker they find in is VT.

——

Meanwhile, Providence, UConn, and Seton Hall were all left out so they are tasked with building their own conference. Rhode Island, Temple, St Bonaventure, St Joseph, LaSalle, and Fordham round out their 9 member league that later grows to 12 with Richmond, Xavier, and Dayton.

You still have the same fundamental problem the Big East had in our timeline upon adding football -- two sizable factions of FB-first and BB-first schools.

You’d have BC, Villanova, and Syracuse there who are all on the fence in between the 5 member basketball faction and 4 member football faction. That might be enough “Sandra Day O’Conner” swing votes to keep everyone happy.

If the basketball side gets huffy over Miami all the football side has to do is threaten to leave.

(11-09-2020 12:30 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 09:29 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Let’s play with this scenario:

The Eastern 8 is formed in 1976 with—

Penn St
Pitt
Rutgers
WVU
Villanova
UMass
George Washington
Duquesne

Penn St is able to convince BC and Syracuse to join on the condition that they beef up the basketball side with St John’s and Georgetown. They change the name to Eastern 12. Villanova football isn’t shuttered and stays DI-A by virtue of being in a conference with schools that meet the standard so they have a 7 member football conference. Temple football plays as an affiliate to make 8.

Miami (FL)’s rise to prominence merits them an invitation to join the Eastern 12. Talks occur with ND about joining but the best the Irish will give is Olympic sports and 5 football games/yr.

When the ACC goes hunting on 2003, the only taker they find in is VT.

——

Meanwhile, Providence, UConn, and Seton Hall were all left out so they are tasked with building their own conference. Rhode Island, Temple, St Bonaventure, St Joseph, LaSalle, and Fordham round out their 9 member league that later grows to 12 with Richmond, Xavier, and Dayton.

This could be a very formidable core for building a long-term viable Power conference. Penn State, Pitt, WVU, Syracuse, BC and Rutgers together since mid 1970s. Miami would be an essential member prior to the formation of the BCS; with Notre Dame in some ad hoc relationship.

The question of long-term survival depends on this Eastern 8 conference’s ability to coexist and prioritize football. For example,
1) Villanova may still have made the decision to de-prioritize football in the early 1980s. In addition, Rutgers and Temple didn’t really embrace football in the 70s, 80s or 90s...if the conference is carrying too much football dead-weight, then the better football programs may be tempted to look elsewhere. Seeking Villanova’s membership would have been worth the risk; Temple’s membership likely would hurt the long term viability.
2) Having competition with Catholic schools (Georgetown, St Johns, Villanova and BC) can help draw-in Notre Dame, but can also hinder the overall commitment to football. The Irish’s vocal need for independence, and their football media-rights contract, could have created tension with PSU. If UMass, GW and Duquesne are invited you are diluting the opportunity for football first decisions...without gaining much basketball strength.
3) Miami and VT really helped the football product in the 90s and early 00s. Stronger competition from their northern flank probably would have forced faster recognition by the ACC that a conference championship game would be a media revenue bonanza.

To forestall potential defections (PSU/Syracuse/Pitt to the B10; Miami/VT/WVU to the ACC), the Elite 8’s leadership would have needed to be fully committed to football first decisions. A potential 12-team league in the early 00s:
North: BC, Syracuse, Rutgers, PSU, Pitt and Miami
South: WVU, VT, Louisville, Cincinnati, Memphis and USF
The Backyard Brawl being the lone protected rivalry.

This Eastern Conference would have also been positioned for the 2010 cable channel expansion...going after Notre Dame (seeking a 6 or 7 game conference commitment) and Maryland.

I’m not seeing where adding the Metro schools to a South football division is a move that anchors the conference’s top schools to stay—if anything, it creates more mouths to feed and erodes that eastern culture.

Your lure for ND as an Olympic if not full member is:

Big East Coast markets (Boston, NYC, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, DC) where they have an established connection with the local Catholic population

fellow football giants Penn St and Miami

Incidentally, those are the same draws that hopefully keep Penn St in the fold. I don’t see how adding Mid South schools adds to that.

(11-09-2020 03:33 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 10:45 AM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 09:29 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Let’s play with this scenario:

The Eastern 8 is formed in 1976 with—

Penn St
Pitt
Rutgers
WVU
Villanova
UMass
George Washington
Duquesne

Penn St is able to convince BC and Syracuse to join on the condition that they beef up the basketball side with St John’s and Georgetown. They change the name to Eastern 12. Villanova football isn’t shuttered and stays DI-A by virtue of being in a conference with schools that meet the standard so they have a 7 member football conference. Temple football plays as an affiliate to make 8.

Miami (FL)’s rise to prominence merits them an invitation to join the Eastern 12. Talks occur with ND about joining but the best the Irish will give is Olympic sports and 5 football games/yr.

When the ACC goes hunting on 2003, the only taker they find in is VT.

——

Meanwhile, Providence, UConn, and Seton Hall were all left out so they are tasked with building their own conference. Rhode Island, Temple, St Bonaventure, St Joseph, LaSalle, and Fordham round out their 9 member league that later grows to 12 with Richmond, Xavier, and Dayton.

You still have the same fundamental problem the Big East had in our timeline upon adding football -- two sizable factions of FB-first and BB-first schools.

You’d have BC, Villanova, and Syracuse there who are all on the fence in between the 5 member basketball faction and 4 member football faction. That might be enough “Sandra Day O’Conner” swing votes to keep everyone happy.

If the basketball side gets huffy over Miami all the football side has to do is threaten to leave.

OK, so say by 2000, you have this:

Full: Boston College, Miami-FL, Penn State, Pittsburgh, Rutgers, Syracuse, Villanova, Virginia Tech, West Virginia
Non-FB: Duquesne, George Washington, Georgetown, Massachusetts, Notre Dame, St. John's
FB only: Temple (this is a bit dubious with Nova FB, but perhaps PSU would insist on Temple)

It's certainly a stronger FB conference with Penn State on board, but without FSU, I feel Miami is still going to want to join the ACC. Besides PSU, this is only different than the Big East of our timeline in that Villanova has FB and you have Duquesne, GWU, and UMass instead of Providence, Seton Hall, and UConn. Neither the FB wing nor the BB wing has a sizable enough supermajority to effect change in the conference, and both of course have different priorities, so we'll likely see the same inherent dysfunction that doomed Big East FB from the start.

(11-09-2020 03:46 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 12:30 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 09:29 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Let’s play with this scenario:

The Eastern 8 is formed in 1976 with—

Penn St
Pitt
Rutgers
WVU
Villanova
UMass
George Washington
Duquesne

Penn St is able to convince BC and Syracuse to join on the condition that they beef up the basketball side with St John’s and Georgetown. They change the name to Eastern 12. Villanova football isn’t shuttered and stays DI-A by virtue of being in a conference with schools that meet the standard so they have a 7 member football conference. Temple football plays as an affiliate to make 8.

Miami (FL)’s rise to prominence merits them an invitation to join the Eastern 12. Talks occur with ND about joining but the best the Irish will give is Olympic sports and 5 football games/yr.

When the ACC goes hunting on 2003, the only taker they find in is VT.

——

Meanwhile, Providence, UConn, and Seton Hall were all left out so they are tasked with building their own conference. Rhode Island, Temple, St Bonaventure, St Joseph, LaSalle, and Fordham round out their 9 member league that later grows to 12 with Richmond, Xavier, and Dayton.

This could be a very formidable core for building a long-term viable Power conference. Penn State, Pitt, WVU, Syracuse, BC and Rutgers together since mid 1970s. Miami would be an essential member prior to the formation of the BCS; with Notre Dame in some ad hoc relationship.

The question of long-term survival depends on this Eastern 8 conference’s ability to coexist and prioritize football. For example,
1) Villanova may still have made the decision to de-prioritize football in the early 1980s. In addition, Rutgers and Temple didn’t really embrace football in the 70s, 80s or 90s...if the conference is carrying too much football dead-weight, then the better football programs may be tempted to look elsewhere. Seeking Villanova’s membership would have been worth the risk; Temple’s membership likely would hurt the long term viability.
2) Having competition with Catholic schools (Georgetown, St Johns, Villanova and BC) can help draw-in Notre Dame, but can also hinder the overall commitment to football. The Irish’s vocal need for independence, and their football media-rights contract, could have created tension with PSU. If UMass, GW and Duquesne are invited you are diluting the opportunity for football first decisions...without gaining much basketball strength.
3) Miami and VT really helped the football product in the 90s and early 00s. Stronger competition from their northern flank probably would have forced faster recognition by the ACC that a conference championship game would be a media revenue bonanza.

To forestall potential defections (PSU/Syracuse/Pitt to the B10; Miami/VT/WVU to the ACC), the Elite 8’s leadership would have needed to be fully committed to football first decisions. A potential 12-team league in the early 00s:
North: BC, Syracuse, Rutgers, PSU, Pitt and Miami
South: WVU, VT, Louisville, Cincinnati, Memphis and USF
The Backyard Brawl being the lone protected rivalry.

This Eastern Conference would have also been positioned for the 2010 cable channel expansion...going after Notre Dame (seeking a 6 or 7 game conference commitment) and Maryland.

I’m not seeing where adding the Metro schools to a South football division is a move that anchors the conference’s top schools to stay—if anything, it creates more mouths to feed and erodes that eastern culture.

Your lure for ND as an Olympic if not full member is:

Big East Coast markets (Boston, NYC, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, DC) where they have an established connection with the local Catholic population

fellow football giants Penn St and Miami

Incidentally, those are the same draws that hopefully keep Penn St in the fold. I don’t see how adding Mid South schools adds to that.

Successful power conferences have grown, in the number of schools and geography. The southern / Metro schools provide a reliable commitment to football, as well as solid recruiting grounds for players. In addition, southern schools would help solidify bowl tie-ins.

It’s unlikely that football-first schools from the BIG, SEC or ACC will jump to an upstart Eastern 8 conference...unless the payouts are dramatically higher. The southern / Metro schools will not be mouths to feed. Rather they will allow the newer Eastern 8 to grow their membership and revenues to at least the size of the other power conferences.

My goal was to create a viable scenario where Penn State and Notre Dame would be the central programs in a power conference. In your OP the potential additions of UMass, GW, Duquesne and Temple don’t really help PSU nor ND (unfortunately, they would be “mouths to feed”).

(11-09-2020 05:53 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 03:46 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 12:30 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 09:29 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Let’s play with this scenario:

The Eastern 8 is formed in 1976 with—

Penn St
Pitt
Rutgers
WVU
Villanova
UMass
George Washington
Duquesne

Penn St is able to convince BC and Syracuse to join on the condition that they beef up the basketball side with St John’s and Georgetown. They change the name to Eastern 12. Villanova football isn’t shuttered and stays DI-A by virtue of being in a conference with schools that meet the standard so they have a 7 member football conference. Temple football plays as an affiliate to make 8.

Miami (FL)’s rise to prominence merits them an invitation to join the Eastern 12. Talks occur with ND about joining but the best the Irish will give is Olympic sports and 5 football games/yr.

When the ACC goes hunting on 2003, the only taker they find in is VT.

——

Meanwhile, Providence, UConn, and Seton Hall were all left out so they are tasked with building their own conference. Rhode Island, Temple, St Bonaventure, St Joseph, LaSalle, and Fordham round out their 9 member league that later grows to 12 with Richmond, Xavier, and Dayton.

This could be a very formidable core for building a long-term viable Power conference. Penn State, Pitt, WVU, Syracuse, BC and Rutgers together since mid 1970s. Miami would be an essential member prior to the formation of the BCS; with Notre Dame in some ad hoc relationship.

The question of long-term survival depends on this Eastern 8 conference’s ability to coexist and prioritize football. For example,
1) Villanova may still have made the decision to de-prioritize football in the early 1980s. In addition, Rutgers and Temple didn’t really embrace football in the 70s, 80s or 90s...if the conference is carrying too much football dead-weight, then the better football programs may be tempted to look elsewhere. Seeking Villanova’s membership would have been worth the risk; Temple’s membership likely would hurt the long term viability.
2) Having competition with Catholic schools (Georgetown, St Johns, Villanova and BC) can help draw-in Notre Dame, but can also hinder the overall commitment to football. The Irish’s vocal need for independence, and their football media-rights contract, could have created tension with PSU. If UMass, GW and Duquesne are invited you are diluting the opportunity for football first decisions...without gaining much basketball strength.
3) Miami and VT really helped the football product in the 90s and early 00s. Stronger competition from their northern flank probably would have forced faster recognition by the ACC that a conference championship game would be a media revenue bonanza.

To forestall potential defections (PSU/Syracuse/Pitt to the B10; Miami/VT/WVU to the ACC), the Elite 8’s leadership would have needed to be fully committed to football first decisions. A potential 12-team league in the early 00s:
North: BC, Syracuse, Rutgers, PSU, Pitt and Miami
South: WVU, VT, Louisville, Cincinnati, Memphis and USF
The Backyard Brawl being the lone protected rivalry.

This Eastern Conference would have also been positioned for the 2010 cable channel expansion...going after Notre Dame (seeking a 6 or 7 game conference commitment) and Maryland.

I’m not seeing where adding the Metro schools to a South football division is a move that anchors the conference’s top schools to stay—if anything, it creates more mouths to feed and erodes that eastern culture.

Your lure for ND as an Olympic if not full member is:

Big East Coast markets (Boston, NYC, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, DC) where they have an established connection with the local Catholic population

fellow football giants Penn St and Miami

Incidentally, those are the same draws that hopefully keep Penn St in the fold. I don’t see how adding Mid South schools adds to that.

Successful power conferences have grown, in the number of schools and geography. The southern / Metro schools provide a reliable commitment to football, as well as solid recruiting grounds for players. In addition, southern schools would help solidify bowl tie-ins.

It’s unlikely that football-first schools from the BIG, SEC or ACC will jump to an upstart Eastern 8 conference...unless the payouts are dramatically higher. The southern / Metro schools will not be mouths to feed. Rather they will allow the newer Eastern 8 to grow their membership and revenues to at least the size of the other power conferences.

My goal was to create a viable scenario where Penn State and Notre Dame would be the central programs in a power conference. In your OP the potential additions of UMass, GW, Duquesne and Temple don’t really help PSU nor ND (unfortunately, they would be “mouths to feed”).

GW, UMass, and Duquesne were in there because in 1976 those schools were willing to jump on board.

If BC, Syracuse, St John’s, and Georgetown were all on board and answered the call first I could see those 3 all left out and the Eastern 9 (10?) looking like this:

Penn St
Pitt
WVU
Rutgers
Villanova
BC
Syracuse
St John’s*
Georgetown*
Temple (?)

That’s a little less extra weight.

Aside from FSU, I don’t think there’s a whole lot to draw Miami away from a strong Eastern 10. If they can keep that game alive as an OOC I think the Canes stay.

(11-09-2020 05:53 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 03:46 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 12:30 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 09:29 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Let’s play with this scenario:

The Eastern 8 is formed in 1976 with—

Penn St
Pitt
Rutgers
WVU
Villanova
UMass
George Washington
Duquesne

Penn St is able to convince BC and Syracuse to join on the condition that they beef up the basketball side with St John’s and Georgetown. They change the name to Eastern 12. Villanova football isn’t shuttered and stays DI-A by virtue of being in a conference with schools that meet the standard so they have a 7 member football conference. Temple football plays as an affiliate to make 8.

Miami (FL)’s rise to prominence merits them an invitation to join the Eastern 12. Talks occur with ND about joining but the best the Irish will give is Olympic sports and 5 football games/yr.

When the ACC goes hunting on 2003, the only taker they find in is VT.

——

Meanwhile, Providence, UConn, and Seton Hall were all left out so they are tasked with building their own conference. Rhode Island, Temple, St Bonaventure, St Joseph, LaSalle, and Fordham round out their 9 member league that later grows to 12 with Richmond, Xavier, and Dayton.

This could be a very formidable core for building a long-term viable Power conference. Penn State, Pitt, WVU, Syracuse, BC and Rutgers together since mid 1970s. Miami would be an essential member prior to the formation of the BCS; with Notre Dame in some ad hoc relationship.

The question of long-term survival depends on this Eastern 8 conference’s ability to coexist and prioritize football. For example,
1) Villanova may still have made the decision to de-prioritize football in the early 1980s. In addition, Rutgers and Temple didn’t really embrace football in the 70s, 80s or 90s...if the conference is carrying too much football dead-weight, then the better football programs may be tempted to look elsewhere. Seeking Villanova’s membership would have been worth the risk; Temple’s membership likely would hurt the long term viability.
2) Having competition with Catholic schools (Georgetown, St Johns, Villanova and BC) can help draw-in Notre Dame, but can also hinder the overall commitment to football. The Irish’s vocal need for independence, and their football media-rights contract, could have created tension with PSU. If UMass, GW and Duquesne are invited you are diluting the opportunity for football first decisions...without gaining much basketball strength.
3) Miami and VT really helped the football product in the 90s and early 00s. Stronger competition from their northern flank probably would have forced faster recognition by the ACC that a conference championship game would be a media revenue bonanza.

To forestall potential defections (PSU/Syracuse/Pitt to the B10; Miami/VT/WVU to the ACC), the Elite 8’s leadership would have needed to be fully committed to football first decisions. A potential 12-team league in the early 00s:
North: BC, Syracuse, Rutgers, PSU, Pitt and Miami
South: WVU, VT, Louisville, Cincinnati, Memphis and USF
The Backyard Brawl being the lone protected rivalry.

This Eastern Conference would have also been positioned for the 2010 cable channel expansion...going after Notre Dame (seeking a 6 or 7 game conference commitment) and Maryland.

I’m not seeing where adding the Metro schools to a South football division is a move that anchors the conference’s top schools to stay—if anything, it creates more mouths to feed and erodes that eastern culture.

Your lure for ND as an Olympic if not full member is:

Big East Coast markets (Boston, NYC, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, DC) where they have an established connection with the local Catholic population

fellow football giants Penn St and Miami

Incidentally, those are the same draws that hopefully keep Penn St in the fold. I don’t see how adding Mid South schools adds to that.

Successful power conferences have grown, in the number of schools and geography. The southern / Metro schools provide a reliable commitment to football, as well as solid recruiting grounds for players. In addition, southern schools would help solidify bowl tie-ins.

It’s unlikely that football-first schools from the BIG, SEC or ACC will jump to an upstart Eastern 8 conference...unless the payouts are dramatically higher. The southern / Metro schools will not be mouths to feed. Rather they will allow the newer Eastern 8 to grow their membership and revenues to at least the size of the other power conferences.

My goal was to create a viable scenario where Penn State and Notre Dame would be the central programs in a power conference. In your OP the potential additions of UMass, GW, Duquesne and Temple don’t really help PSU nor ND (unfortunately, they would be “mouths to feed”).

GW, UMass, and Duquesne were in there because in 1976 those schools were willing to jump on board.

If BC, Syracuse, St John’s, and Georgetown were all on board and answered the call first I could see those 3 all left out and the Eastern 9 (10?) looking like this:

Penn St
Pitt
WVU
Rutgers
Villanova
BC
Syracuse
St John’s*
Georgetown*
Temple (?)

That’s a little less extra weight.

Aside from FSU, I don’t think there’s a whole lot to draw Miami away from a strong Eastern 10. If they can keep that game alive as an OOC I think the Canes stay.

(11-09-2020 07:29 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 05:53 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 03:46 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 12:30 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 09:29 AM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Let’s play with this scenario:

The Eastern 8 is formed in 1976 with—

Penn St
Pitt
Rutgers
WVU
Villanova
UMass
George Washington
Duquesne

Penn St is able to convince BC and Syracuse to join on the condition that they beef up the basketball side with St John’s and Georgetown. They change the name to Eastern 12. Villanova football isn’t shuttered and stays DI-A by virtue of being in a conference with schools that meet the standard so they have a 7 member football conference. Temple football plays as an affiliate to make 8.

Miami (FL)’s rise to prominence merits them an invitation to join the Eastern 12. Talks occur with ND about joining but the best the Irish will give is Olympic sports and 5 football games/yr.

When the ACC goes hunting on 2003, the only taker they find in is VT.

——

Meanwhile, Providence, UConn, and Seton Hall were all left out so they are tasked with building their own conference. Rhode Island, Temple, St Bonaventure, St Joseph, LaSalle, and Fordham round out their 9 member league that later grows to 12 with Richmond, Xavier, and Dayton.

This could be a very formidable core for building a long-term viable Power conference. Penn State, Pitt, WVU, Syracuse, BC and Rutgers together since mid 1970s. Miami would be an essential member prior to the formation of the BCS; with Notre Dame in some ad hoc relationship.

The question of long-term survival depends on this Eastern 8 conference’s ability to coexist and prioritize football. For example,
1) Villanova may still have made the decision to de-prioritize football in the early 1980s. In addition, Rutgers and Temple didn’t really embrace football in the 70s, 80s or 90s...if the conference is carrying too much football dead-weight, then the better football programs may be tempted to look elsewhere. Seeking Villanova’s membership would have been worth the risk; Temple’s membership likely would hurt the long term viability.
2) Having competition with Catholic schools (Georgetown, St Johns, Villanova and BC) can help draw-in Notre Dame, but can also hinder the overall commitment to football. The Irish’s vocal need for independence, and their football media-rights contract, could have created tension with PSU. If UMass, GW and Duquesne are invited you are diluting the opportunity for football first decisions...without gaining much basketball strength.
3) Miami and VT really helped the football product in the 90s and early 00s. Stronger competition from their northern flank probably would have forced faster recognition by the ACC that a conference championship game would be a media revenue bonanza.

To forestall potential defections (PSU/Syracuse/Pitt to the B10; Miami/VT/WVU to the ACC), the Elite 8’s leadership would have needed to be fully committed to football first decisions. A potential 12-team league in the early 00s:
North: BC, Syracuse, Rutgers, PSU, Pitt and Miami
South: WVU, VT, Louisville, Cincinnati, Memphis and USF
The Backyard Brawl being the lone protected rivalry.

This Eastern Conference would have also been positioned for the 2010 cable channel expansion...going after Notre Dame (seeking a 6 or 7 game conference commitment) and Maryland.

I’m not seeing where adding the Metro schools to a South football division is a move that anchors the conference’s top schools to stay—if anything, it creates more mouths to feed and erodes that eastern culture.

Your lure for ND as an Olympic if not full member is:

Big East Coast markets (Boston, NYC, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, DC) where they have an established connection with the local Catholic population

fellow football giants Penn St and Miami

Incidentally, those are the same draws that hopefully keep Penn St in the fold. I don’t see how adding Mid South schools adds to that.

Successful power conferences have grown, in the number of schools and geography. The southern / Metro schools provide a reliable commitment to football, as well as solid recruiting grounds for players. In addition, southern schools would help solidify bowl tie-ins.

It’s unlikely that football-first schools from the BIG, SEC or ACC will jump to an upstart Eastern 8 conference...unless the payouts are dramatically higher. The southern / Metro schools will not be mouths to feed. Rather they will allow the newer Eastern 8 to grow their membership and revenues to at least the size of the other power conferences.

My goal was to create a viable scenario where Penn State and Notre Dame would be the central programs in a power conference. In your OP the potential additions of UMass, GW, Duquesne and Temple don’t really help PSU nor ND (unfortunately, they would be “mouths to feed”).

GW, UMass, and Duquesne were in there because in 1976 those schools were willing to jump on board.

If BC, Syracuse, St John’s, and Georgetown were all on board and answered the call first I could see those 3 all left out and the Eastern 9 (10?) looking like this:

Penn St
Pitt
WVU
Rutgers
Villanova
BC
Syracuse
St John’s*
Georgetown*
Temple (?)

That’s a little less extra weight.

Aside from FSU, I don’t think there’s a whole lot to draw Miami away from a strong Eastern 10. If they can keep that game alive as an OOC I think the Canes stay.

Part of what made the ACC attractive to Miami was the commitment to football. For example, the conference championship game was a guaranteed source of incremental revenue. There are not enough universities in the northeast that are sufficiently committed to high-level football.

To keep Miami from jumping ship, the Eastern Conference would need to expand to 12 members and start a championship game.

(11-09-2020 07:58 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 07:29 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 05:53 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 03:46 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 12:30 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  This could be a very formidable core for building a long-term viable Power conference. Penn State, Pitt, WVU, Syracuse, BC and Rutgers together since mid 1970s. Miami would be an essential member prior to the formation of the BCS; with Notre Dame in some ad hoc relationship.

The question of long-term survival depends on this Eastern 8 conference’s ability to coexist and prioritize football. For example,
1) Villanova may still have made the decision to de-prioritize football in the early 1980s. In addition, Rutgers and Temple didn’t really embrace football in the 70s, 80s or 90s...if the conference is carrying too much football dead-weight, then the better football programs may be tempted to look elsewhere. Seeking Villanova’s membership would have been worth the risk; Temple’s membership likely would hurt the long term viability.
2) Having competition with Catholic schools (Georgetown, St Johns, Villanova and BC) can help draw-in Notre Dame, but can also hinder the overall commitment to football. The Irish’s vocal need for independence, and their football media-rights contract, could have created tension with PSU. If UMass, GW and Duquesne are invited you are diluting the opportunity for football first decisions...without gaining much basketball strength.
3) Miami and VT really helped the football product in the 90s and early 00s. Stronger competition from their northern flank probably would have forced faster recognition by the ACC that a conference championship game would be a media revenue bonanza.

To forestall potential defections (PSU/Syracuse/Pitt to the B10; Miami/VT/WVU to the ACC), the Elite 8’s leadership would have needed to be fully committed to football first decisions. A potential 12-team league in the early 00s:
North: BC, Syracuse, Rutgers, PSU, Pitt and Miami
South: WVU, VT, Louisville, Cincinnati, Memphis and USF
The Backyard Brawl being the lone protected rivalry.

This Eastern Conference would have also been positioned for the 2010 cable channel expansion...going after Notre Dame (seeking a 6 or 7 game conference commitment) and Maryland.

I’m not seeing where adding the Metro schools to a South football division is a move that anchors the conference’s top schools to stay—if anything, it creates more mouths to feed and erodes that eastern culture.

Your lure for ND as an Olympic if not full member is:

Big East Coast markets (Boston, NYC, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, DC) where they have an established connection with the local Catholic population

fellow football giants Penn St and Miami

Incidentally, those are the same draws that hopefully keep Penn St in the fold. I don’t see how adding Mid South schools adds to that.

Successful power conferences have grown, in the number of schools and geography. The southern / Metro schools provide a reliable commitment to football, as well as solid recruiting grounds for players. In addition, southern schools would help solidify bowl tie-ins.

It’s unlikely that football-first schools from the BIG, SEC or ACC will jump to an upstart Eastern 8 conference...unless the payouts are dramatically higher. The southern / Metro schools will not be mouths to feed. Rather they will allow the newer Eastern 8 to grow their membership and revenues to at least the size of the other power conferences.

My goal was to create a viable scenario where Penn State and Notre Dame would be the central programs in a power conference. In your OP the potential additions of UMass, GW, Duquesne and Temple don’t really help PSU nor ND (unfortunately, they would be “mouths to feed”).

GW, UMass, and Duquesne were in there because in 1976 those schools were willing to jump on board.

If BC, Syracuse, St John’s, and Georgetown were all on board and answered the call first I could see those 3 all left out and the Eastern 9 (10?) looking like this:

Penn St
Pitt
WVU
Rutgers
Villanova
BC
Syracuse
St John’s*
Georgetown*
Temple (?)

That’s a little less extra weight.

Aside from FSU, I don’t think there’s a whole lot to draw Miami away from a strong Eastern 10. If they can keep that game alive as an OOC I think the Canes stay.

Part of what made the ACC attractive to Miami was the commitment to football. For example, the conference championship game was a guaranteed source of incremental revenue. There are not enough universities in the northeast that are sufficiently committed to high-level football.

To keep Miami from jumping ship, the Eastern Conference would need to expand to 12 members and start a championship game.

Army*/Rutgers
Boston College/Syracuse
Miami-FL/Penn State
Navy*/Temple OR Villanova
Notre Dame/Pittsburgh
Virginia Tech/West Virginia

NFB: Georgetown, St. John's

If the service academies aren't on board:

Boston College/Syracuse
Connecticut/Rutgers
Miami-FL/Penn State
Notre Dame/Pittsburgh
Villanova/Temple
Virginia Tech/West Virginia

NFB: Georgetown, St. John's

(11-09-2020 08:30 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 07:58 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 07:29 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 05:53 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 03:46 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  I’m not seeing where adding the Metro schools to a South football division is a move that anchors the conference’s top schools to stay—if anything, it creates more mouths to feed and erodes that eastern culture.

Your lure for ND as an Olympic if not full member is:

Big East Coast markets (Boston, NYC, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, DC) where they have an established connection with the local Catholic population

fellow football giants Penn St and Miami

Incidentally, those are the same draws that hopefully keep Penn St in the fold. I don’t see how adding Mid South schools adds to that.

Successful power conferences have grown, in the number of schools and geography. The southern / Metro schools provide a reliable commitment to football, as well as solid recruiting grounds for players. In addition, southern schools would help solidify bowl tie-ins.

It’s unlikely that football-first schools from the BIG, SEC or ACC will jump to an upstart Eastern 8 conference...unless the payouts are dramatically higher. The southern / Metro schools will not be mouths to feed. Rather they will allow the newer Eastern 8 to grow their membership and revenues to at least the size of the other power conferences.

My goal was to create a viable scenario where Penn State and Notre Dame would be the central programs in a power conference. In your OP the potential additions of UMass, GW, Duquesne and Temple don’t really help PSU nor ND (unfortunately, they would be “mouths to feed”).

GW, UMass, and Duquesne were in there because in 1976 those schools were willing to jump on board.

If BC, Syracuse, St John’s, and Georgetown were all on board and answered the call first I could see those 3 all left out and the Eastern 9 (10?) looking like this:

Penn St
Pitt
WVU
Rutgers
Villanova
BC
Syracuse
St John’s*
Georgetown*
Temple (?)

That’s a little less extra weight.

Aside from FSU, I don’t think there’s a whole lot to draw Miami away from a strong Eastern 10. If they can keep that game alive as an OOC I think the Canes stay.

Part of what made the ACC attractive to Miami was the commitment to football. For example, the conference championship game was a guaranteed source of incremental revenue. There are not enough universities in the northeast that are sufficiently committed to high-level football.

To keep Miami from jumping ship, the Eastern Conference would need to expand to 12 members and start a championship game.

Army*/Rutgers
Boston College/Syracuse
Miami-FL/Penn State
Navy*/Temple OR Villanova
Notre Dame/Pittsburgh
Virginia Tech/West Virginia

NFB: Georgetown, St. John's

If the service academies aren't on board:

Boston College/Syracuse
Connecticut/Rutgers
Miami-FL/Penn State
Notre Dame/Pittsburgh
Villanova/Temple
Virginia Tech/West Virginia

NFB: Georgetown, St. John's

I assumed ND wouldn’t be available at 12...they would only commit as a partial early on. Also, this conference has 4 teams without historical commitment to big time football (Rutgers, UConn, Nova and Temple), plus two schools with lower ceilings during the past several decades (BC and Syracuse). The grouping with the service academies has potential for good media payouts.

(11-09-2020 09:47 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 08:30 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 07:58 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 07:29 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 05:53 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  Successful power conferences have grown, in the number of schools and geography. The southern / Metro schools provide a reliable commitment to football, as well as solid recruiting grounds for players. In addition, southern schools would help solidify bowl tie-ins.

It’s unlikely that football-first schools from the BIG, SEC or ACC will jump to an upstart Eastern 8 conference...unless the payouts are dramatically higher. The southern / Metro schools will not be mouths to feed. Rather they will allow the newer Eastern 8 to grow their membership and revenues to at least the size of the other power conferences.

My goal was to create a viable scenario where Penn State and Notre Dame would be the central programs in a power conference. In your OP the potential additions of UMass, GW, Duquesne and Temple don’t really help PSU nor ND (unfortunately, they would be “mouths to feed”).

GW, UMass, and Duquesne were in there because in 1976 those schools were willing to jump on board.

If BC, Syracuse, St John’s, and Georgetown were all on board and answered the call first I could see those 3 all left out and the Eastern 9 (10?) looking like this:

Penn St
Pitt
WVU
Rutgers
Villanova
BC
Syracuse
St John’s*
Georgetown*
Temple (?)

That’s a little less extra weight.

Aside from FSU, I don’t think there’s a whole lot to draw Miami away from a strong Eastern 10. If they can keep that game alive as an OOC I think the Canes stay.

Part of what made the ACC attractive to Miami was the commitment to football. For example, the conference championship game was a guaranteed source of incremental revenue. There are not enough universities in the northeast that are sufficiently committed to high-level football.

To keep Miami from jumping ship, the Eastern Conference would need to expand to 12 members and start a championship game.

Army*/Rutgers
Boston College/Syracuse
Miami-FL/Penn State
Navy*/Temple OR Villanova
Notre Dame/Pittsburgh
Virginia Tech/West Virginia

NFB: Georgetown, St. John's

If the service academies aren't on board:

Boston College/Syracuse
Connecticut/Rutgers
Miami-FL/Penn State
Notre Dame/Pittsburgh
Villanova/Temple
Virginia Tech/West Virginia

NFB: Georgetown, St. John's

I assumed ND wouldn’t be available at 12...they would only commit as a partial early on. Also, this conference has 4 teams without historical commitment to big time football (Rutgers, UConn, Nova and Temple), plus two schools with lower ceilings during the past several decades (BC and Syracuse). The grouping with the service academies has potential for good media payouts.

Well, those schools would just have to step it up then.

Army*/Rutgers
Boston College/Syracuse
Louisville/Cincinnati
Miami-FL/Penn State
Navy*/Pittsburgh
Virginia Tech/West Virginia

NFB: Georgetown, Notre Dame, St. John's, Villanova

This would still most likely fall apart once the ACC comes calling.

A strong football setup would have spared Villanova dropping the program and its subsequent resuscitation in I-AA.

Georgetown and St. John's were both playing Division III in 1979 but neither of its athletic directors at the time (Frank Rienzo, Jack Kaiser) would have seen any need in pursuing an upgrade.

(11-09-2020 11:37 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 09:47 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 08:30 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 07:58 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  

(11-09-2020 07:29 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  GW, UMass, and Duquesne were in there because in 1976 those schools were willing to jump on board.

If BC, Syracuse, St John’s, and Georgetown were all on board and answered the call first I could see those 3 all left out and the Eastern 9 (10?) looking like this:

Penn St
Pitt
WVU
Rutgers
Villanova
BC
Syracuse
St John’s*
Georgetown*
Temple (?)

That’s a little less extra weight.

Aside from FSU, I don’t think there’s a whole lot to draw Miami away from a strong Eastern 10. If they can keep that game alive as an OOC I think the Canes stay.

Part of what made the ACC attractive to Miami was the commitment to football. For example, the conference championship game was a guaranteed source of incremental revenue. There are not enough universities in the northeast that are sufficiently committed to high-level football.

To keep Miami from jumping ship, the Eastern Conference would need to expand to 12 members and start a championship game.

Army*/Rutgers
Boston College/Syracuse
Miami-FL/Penn State
Navy*/Temple OR Villanova
Notre Dame/Pittsburgh
Virginia Tech/West Virginia

NFB: Georgetown, St. John's

If the service academies aren't on board:

Boston College/Syracuse
Connecticut/Rutgers
Miami-FL/Penn State
Notre Dame/Pittsburgh
Villanova/Temple
Virginia Tech/West Virginia

NFB: Georgetown, St. John's

I assumed ND wouldn’t be available at 12...they would only commit as a partial early on. Also, this conference has 4 teams without historical commitment to big time football (Rutgers, UConn, Nova and Temple), plus two schools with lower ceilings during the past several decades (BC and Syracuse). The grouping with the service academies has potential for good media payouts.

Well, those schools would just have to step it up then.

Army*/Rutgers
Boston College/Syracuse
Louisville/Cincinnati
Miami-FL/Penn State
Navy*/Pittsburgh
Virginia Tech/West Virginia

NFB: Notre Dame, Georgetown, St. John's, Villanova

This would still most likely fall apart once the ACC comes calling.

That is a strong conference. Good football, good basketball, lots of brands, lots of rivalries and a populated geography. Media payouts should have been really high. Other than VT (who would have better traditional rivals and a geographic consideration), not sure why the ACC would be more attractive.

Remember that ND is also playing at least 5 annual football games. Helping to multiply the TV media value, and strengthening home attendance.

Not really sure why people act like adding teams like Louisville, Cincinnati and USF to get to 12 would have been attractive to the Big East. Or Army or Navy.

The Big East only added C-USA teams because they had been raided by the ACC and needed replacements.

(11-08-2020 04:16 PM)orangefan Wrote:  

(11-06-2020 10:03 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  For what it's worth, had the original invitees accepted the Big East offer in 1979, there would have been five I-A schools playing football:

Boston College
Holy Cross
Rutgers
Syracuse
Villanova

However, Holy Cross and Villanova were unable to satisfy the new rules to join Division 1-A (now FBS), which were approved in 1978 for effect in 1982, and were unwilling to take the steps necessary to satisfy them.

Had Penn St, Pitt, and Rutgers been added for 1982 they could have saved Villanova football. You only needed 6 schools to be a conference and only 2/3rds meet the new standards:

BC
Cuse
Rutgers
Penn St
Pitt
Villanova

Providence*
UConn*
Seton Hall*
St John’s*
Georgetown*

11 schools—6 playing football. Eventually at least 2 additional football schools would need added.

Not that it mattered, but in 1981 the only Big East school not playing football at some level was Providence.

(12-05-2020 10:23 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  Not that it mattered, but in 1981 the only Big East school not playing football at some level was Providence.

That's an interesting factoid. Did not know.