(11-01-2020 10:48 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  

(10-29-2020 02:05 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(10-29-2020 10:45 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  

(10-29-2020 09:24 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  There is no "Major 7" in college hoops.

There's a P6 and then mid-majors and then everyone else.

Careful how you state that - the AAC sees P6 and they get a woody.

It is "P6-Basketball" and "P5-Football", neither of which is the AAC a part of.

I agree about there being a P6 in hoops and P5 in football, but I don't think there was much cause for confusion, as this is a hoops thread.

Sarcasm Quo.....

Just to throw my hat into the P6 thing.... as another poster noted, there are a few (quite a few) schools that are probably worthy of being in a P6 basketball league. Their league; however is not worthy as a whole.

There is no shame in that, it is what it is. I am making up a word so I apologize in advance:

There is a pereniality to the P6, that the other conferences and their programs cannot maintain. As good a program as Cincinnati (or Memphis or St Louis for example) may be they have 2 or 3 year runs, then they fall back - sometimes for a while. Gonzaga is THE notable exception. Their conferences may get 3 or 4 teams in the big dance 2 or 3 years in a row, then they stumble again and go back to 2 teams. A bad year for a P6 in only 4 teams qualifying.

The other part of the equation is eyeballs on the TV. P6 gets move viewers than the AAC or A-10 or any other Mid Major wannabe. You can claim the AAC is a P7 conference, but the people who tune in beg to differ, and the money the national TV carriers are willing to pay for the product beg to differ as well.


There really is no shame in it, but it is taken as a huge slight by everyone. Case in point is UConn trying to regain basketball cache` by leaving the AAC. The beauty of College basketball is that everyone who deserves a chance to prove it, gets the chance (unlike football) regardless of what your conference "status" is.

Other than a 4 year stretch after we canned Huggins in the mid 2000s we have not been down since the 1980s. UC was set to make their 10th tournament in a row, one of only 5 programs to have an active length of 10 or more tourney runs.

As to whether basketball is more egalitarian than FB you are partly right given admission to the tournament is “open”, but I think the sport is becoming less inclusive given the “rich keep getting richer, and poor keep getting poorer”. They are going everything they can to exclude the schools outside the P5+BE.

(11-01-2020 10:48 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  Sarcasm Quo.....

Just to throw my hat into the P6 thing.... as another poster noted, there are a few (quite a few) schools that are probably worthy of being in a P6 basketball league. Their league; however is not worthy as a whole.

There is no shame in that, it is what it is. I am making up a word so I apologize in advance:

There is a pereniality to the P6, that the other conferences and their programs cannot maintain. As good a program as Cincinnati (or Memphis or St Louis for example) may be they have 2 or 3 year runs, then they fall back - sometimes for a while. Gonzaga is THE notable exception. Their conferences may get 3 or 4 teams in the big dance 2 or 3 years in a row, then they stumble again and go back to 2 teams. A bad year for a P6 in only 4 teams qualifying.

This overstates the case. Programs like Memphis and Cincinnati have had consistent success in various different leagues--Metro, CUSA, Big East, American. A program like Temple is one good coaching hire away from being back.

To use your term, half the basketball programs in the American have that perenniality. It's an inherent quality of those programs, not derived from their conference membership. (It can change over time, but for the next 5 or so years, Temple, Memphis, Cincinnati are all safely big-time.)

The difference is, in the power leagues, just by being a member, you have automatic credibility. A Virginia Tech can go to 4 NCAAs in 20 years, but--they're an ACC school. Hire a Buzz Williams, recruit kids with the lure of playing Duke, Carolina, Syracuse, Louisville etc and you get three straight NCAA trips.

South Florida can't work that plan. Half the AAC can point to their dusty banners in the rafters (or not so dusty), and invoke their ghosts and make their pitch. South Florida can't do that either.

Quote:The other part of the equation is eyeballs on the TV. P6 gets move viewers than the AAC or A-10 or any other Mid Major wannabe. You can claim the AAC is a P7 conference, but the people who tune in beg to differ, and the money the national TV carriers are willing to pay for the product beg to differ as well.

We've gone round the mulberry bush many times on these numbers, but when a solid AAC (or top mid-major) school is playing a solid AAC school, the numbers are comparable to a random P6 vs P6 school.

Quote:There really is no shame in it, but it is taken as a huge slight by everyone. Case in point is UConn trying to regain basketball cache` by leaving the AAC. The beauty of College basketball is that everyone who deserves a chance to prove it, gets the chance (unlike football) regardless of what your conference "status" is.

The reality is, in basketball, the AAC and A-10 *are* what the AAC claims to be in football, a tweener league.

(11-01-2020 11:42 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(11-01-2020 10:48 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  Sarcasm Quo.....

Just to throw my hat into the P6 thing.... as another poster noted, there are a few (quite a few) schools that are probably worthy of being in a P6 basketball league. Their league; however is not worthy as a whole.

There is no shame in that, it is what it is. I am making up a word so I apologize in advance:

There is a pereniality to the P6, that the other conferences and their programs cannot maintain. As good a program as Cincinnati (or Memphis or St Louis for example) may be they have 2 or 3 year runs, then they fall back - sometimes for a while. Gonzaga is THE notable exception. Their conferences may get 3 or 4 teams in the big dance 2 or 3 years in a row, then they stumble again and go back to 2 teams. A bad year for a P6 in only 4 teams qualifying.

This overstates the case. Programs like Memphis and Cincinnati have had consistent success in various different leagues--Metro, CUSA, Big East, American. A program like Temple is one good coaching hire away from being back.

To use your term, half the basketball programs in the American have that perenniality. It's an inherent quality of those programs, not derived from their conference membership. (It can change over time, but for the next 5 or so years, Temple, Memphis, Cincinnati are all safely big-time.)

The difference is, in the power leagues, just by being a member, you have automatic credibility. A Virginia Tech can go to 4 NCAAs in 20 years, but--they're an ACC school. Hire a Buzz Williams, recruit kids with the lure of playing Duke, Carolina, Syracuse, Louisville etc and you get three straight NCAA trips.

South Florida can't work that plan. Half the AAC can point to their dusty banners in the rafters (or not so dusty), and invoke their ghosts and make their pitch. South Florida can't do that either.

Quote:The other part of the equation is eyeballs on the TV. P6 gets move viewers than the AAC or A-10 or any other Mid Major wannabe. You can claim the AAC is a P7 conference, but the people who tune in beg to differ, and the money the national TV carriers are willing to pay for the product beg to differ as well.

We've gone round the mulberry bush many times on these numbers, but when a solid AAC (or top mid-major) school is playing a solid AAC school, the numbers are comparable to a random P6 vs P6 school.

Quote:There really is no shame in it, but it is taken as a huge slight by everyone. Case in point is UConn trying to regain basketball cache` by leaving the AAC. The beauty of College basketball is that everyone who deserves a chance to prove it, gets the chance (unlike football) regardless of what your conference "status" is.

The reality is, in basketball, the AAC and A-10 *are* what the AAC claims to be in football, a tweener league.

Very well said, johnbragg.

There’s no such a thing as a “Major 7” outside this board. The AAC is the best basketball conference outside the P6 and it’s not even close but they’re not part of the club.

(11-01-2020 10:48 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  

(10-29-2020 02:05 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(10-29-2020 10:45 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  

(10-29-2020 09:24 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  There is no "Major 7" in college hoops.

There's a P6 and then mid-majors and then everyone else.

Careful how you state that - the AAC sees P6 and they get a woody.

It is "P6-Basketball" and "P5-Football", neither of which is the AAC a part of.

I agree about there being a P6 in hoops and P5 in football, but I don't think there was much cause for confusion, as this is a hoops thread.

Sarcasm Quo.....

Just to throw my hat into the P6 thing.... as another poster noted, there are a few (quite a few) schools that are probably worthy of being in a P6 basketball league. Their league; however is not worthy as a whole.

There is no shame in that, it is what it is. I am making up a word so I apologize in advance:

There is a pereniality to the P6, that the other conferences and their programs cannot maintain. As good a program as Cincinnati (or Memphis or St Louis for example) may be they have 2 or 3 year runs, then they fall back - sometimes for a while. Gonzaga is THE notable exception. Their conferences may get 3 or 4 teams in the big dance 2 or 3 years in a row, then they stumble again and go back to 2 teams. A bad year for a P6 in only 4 teams qualifying.

I love your concept of "pereniality", but I think the Marquette fan defines it better. Schools like Cincy and Memphis are typically good year in and year out, they do have a pedigree and reputation as historical power schools, but because they are stuck in non-Power league, when they have a bad year they don't get the benefit, the "halo" that surrounds even bad teams that are power leagues.

(11-01-2020 01:50 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(11-01-2020 10:48 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  

(10-29-2020 02:05 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  

(10-29-2020 10:45 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  

(10-29-2020 09:24 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  There is no "Major 7" in college hoops.

There's a P6 and then mid-majors and then everyone else.

Careful how you state that - the AAC sees P6 and they get a woody.

It is "P6-Basketball" and "P5-Football", neither of which is the AAC a part of.

I agree about there being a P6 in hoops and P5 in football, but I don't think there was much cause for confusion, as this is a hoops thread.

Sarcasm Quo.....

Just to throw my hat into the P6 thing.... as another poster noted, there are a few (quite a few) schools that are probably worthy of being in a P6 basketball league. Their league; however is not worthy as a whole.

There is no shame in that, it is what it is. I am making up a word so I apologize in advance:

There is a pereniality to the P6, that the other conferences and their programs cannot maintain. As good a program as Cincinnati (or Memphis or St Louis for example) may be they have 2 or 3 year runs, then they fall back - sometimes for a while. Gonzaga is THE notable exception. Their conferences may get 3 or 4 teams in the big dance 2 or 3 years in a row, then they stumble again and go back to 2 teams. A bad year for a P6 in only 4 teams qualifying.

I love your concept of "pereniality", but I think the Marquette fan defines it better. Schools like Cincy and Memphis are typically good year in and year out, they do have a pedigree and reputation as historical power schools, but because they are stuck in non-Power league, when they have a bad year they don't get the benefit, the "halo" that surrounds even bad teams that are power leagues.

To be specific, the way this operates (especially under the old RPI) is, an 8th place ACC or 6th place Big East or 6th place SEC team has, say, 15 of 18 league games vs opponents that help their SOS, and several opportunities for a "statement game" against a top 10 opponent. Meanwhile a 4th place AAC team has 8-10 games against schools that hurt their SOS, and only a half-dozen conference games against "tournament lock" teams. So guess who gets the trip to Dayton, or the last 10-seed, and guess who gets the chance to dominate the NIT for a few rounds?

(11-01-2020 01:39 PM)UTEPDallas Wrote:  There’s no such a thing as a “Major 7” outside this board. The AAC is the best basketball conference outside the P6 and it’s not even close but they’re not part of the club.

They don't use the term, but when ESPN uses the term "major conferences", it includes the AAC, while they classify the A-10 with the midmajors.

Even when the American formed, the argument (in 2013) was that, if ECU, Tulane, SMU, USF and UCF can take advantage of their markets, playing in an elevated league and pump more resources into their basketball programs, that it would help bump the league (with UConn, Cincinnati, Memphis, Temple, Tulsa) into a power basketball conference. We are seven years later, and the bottom of the AAC remains the bottom (except the top of the AAC continuing to underperform and UConn leaving for the Big East). The big problem (and biggest elephant in the room) is that it is unrealistic to hope for five historically weak programs somehow turn the corner and morph into a contender within the conference. These programs have little-to-no postseason success in history, and these same programs have never consistently challenged for conference championships either. When you add this component into the expectation that the top programs in the AAC remain competitive (and aren’t rebuilding, going through coaching change, on probation, etc.) it is both an unrealistic and unsustainable model into building a power basketball conference.

Without pointing fingers, the AAC made a huge mistake in moving to twelve members in 2012, and adding members that, frankly, never cared about men’s basketball and simply have too many hurdles (past and present) to build a sustainably competitive program. The bottom of the league will always bring down the top, and expecting the top to carry the load (and make up for the bottom) is unrealistic year-in and year-out. If expansion is the ultimate answer, any addition wouldn’t add to the top; it would be to make up for and conceal the bottom.

I always enjoy weighing in on this topic, and I trust my "Memphis and Cincinnati homerism" can be kept in check ...

(I've posted most, if not all, of this info on and off but I'm feeling particularly OCD tonight, so indulge me.)

* The American is home to seven programs (of 11) that would be included in most top 75 — and all top 100 — programs of all-time lists: Cincinnati, Houston, Memphis, SMU, Temple, Tulsa and Wichita. Those seven are considered by fair, reasonable and knowledgeable fans and media members as "major to high-major" programs essentially on par with most others except the bluebloods and, say, the next tier. The other four AAC programs (USF, UCF, Tulane and ECU) are often variously described as "mid-major to major." As such, the American has a sufficient number of quality programs overall to be considered, in a general sense, a "major conference." Everybody I talk to in person about this topic, including members of the media (ESPN too) agrees. Some on this board disagree. That's fine. I simply feel they are wrong.

* Having said that, there is no such universally accepted term as "Major Seven." Not sure where that came from but you will not hear me use it. It seems a designation used to describe the American "more like the P6" and "less like all the rest."

* The American is clearly not a "power" league in hoops. Now, some argue the Big East is not a power league either. I strongly feel they are wrong. What makes the Big East a power league and differentiates it from the AAC are three key factors: 1. all 11 programs are major to high-major; 2. the BE has four programs (Nova, Marquette, UConn, Georgetown) that own national titles. In fact, I believe five of the others have been to a Final Four (all but Creighton and Xavier); and 3. "Power Five-esque" attendance. The AAC simply can't match those numbers.

* Having said that, AAC men's basketball is much more like the Big East than it is, for example, the OVC (which is a true mid-major league). And as a fan of both Belmont (OVC) and DePaul (Big East), I would surely hope I have a decent feel for this and can make that claim with fairness and context.

* The American in men's hoops has been a major (play on words intended) disappointment since its inception. There is no way to sugarcoat it. You could even argue it's been a flop.

My "pereniality" position still holds true.

It is not about each school, it is about the conference as a whole. As good as Cincy or Memphis may be more often than not, you are still in a group that is not winning many/any ties when head to head versus a P6 of similar status. I agree that the tournament is starting to squeeze out the mid majors - but that (again) is a function of your CONFERENCE status, not your school.

Like I said - a bad year for a P6 is only 4 teams making the tournament, any mid major would wet themselves to get that many in any year. That is the bar that the AAC need to hurdle to be considered a P-anything in the court of public opinion.

(11-02-2020 08:38 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  My "pereniality" position still holds true.

It is not about each school, it is about the conference as a whole. As good as Cincy or Memphis may be more often than not, you are still in a group that is not winning many/any ties when head to head versus a P6 of similar status. I agree that the tournament is starting to squeeze out the mid majors - but that (again) is a function of your CONFERENCE status, not your school.

Like I said - a bad year for a P6 is only 4 teams making the tournament, any mid major would wet themselves to get that many in any year. That is the bar that the AAC need to hurdle to be considered a P-anything in the court of public opinion.

Agree fully. And that is why it is critical for Cincinnati and Memphis to continue as they have over the years to do well despite (or because of) their league affiliation.

I can assure you that as a 50-year-plus fan of both Memphis and Vanderbilt, the level of interest and excitement in the Tiger program is Kentucky-esque compared to the level of interest and excitement in the Commodore program.

So many people in Memphis genuinely care about Tiger basketball. I would argue that such a strong level of interest Memphis has is lacking at about 75 percent of the programs in the P6, and DePaul (which I love for many reasons) in the Big East would be example of that "75 percent."

I feel fortunate that Memphis and Cincy continue to battle and maintain major program status (though both have had their struggles at times, no doubt).

(11-02-2020 08:38 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  My "pereniality" position still holds true.

It is not about each school, it is about the conference as a whole. As good as Cincy or Memphis may be more often than not, you are still in a group that is not winning many/any ties when head to head versus a P6 of similar status. I agree that the tournament is starting to squeeze out the mid majors - but that (again) is a function of your CONFERENCE status, not your school.

I really wanted to argue about this, but it's facts. LEt's say Cincinatti is strong this year, on the bubble with--looking at ESPN's bracketology and pretending it's a normal year and this bracket were real--Ole Miss. Ole Miss has the edge, because they have games with 6 tournament teams in-conference, while Cinci only has 2. And all the non-tournament teams in the SEC get an SOS boost, while the non-tournament AAC teams drag each other down.

The NET is supposed to reduce that effect, but it's still there and it's still real.

And that's for Cincinnati, who has the history to get respect. If South Florida puts together that kind of a year? NIT, and maybe next year.

Quote:Like I said - a bad year for a P6 is only 4 teams making the tournament, any mid major would wet themselves to get that many in any year. That is the bar that the AAC need to hurdle to be considered a P-anything in the court of public opinion.

I think you're failing to recognize the perenniality of the AAC and A-10's tweener status. Over 2014-19, those leagues averaged 3 bids per year.

And just as Cincinnati is at a disadvantage on the bubble vs an Ole Miss or a Rutgers, a Miami of Ohio is at a similar disadvantage vs Cincinnati, if they don't win the MAC.

Cincinnati has been in the NCAA tournament every year since 1992 (save for 2006-2010 when it went into a self-imposed death penalty). They've won lots of games in the regular season against "P6" schools, the knock has been advancing in March. Mick Cronin historically shyted the bed during the tourney and if we are being honest so did Huggins after 2001.

I do agree the conference does no favors for UC basketball. It is what it is though- politics.

Is it just me or is there some continuing fascination with the AAC? Every time I come over to this board there are one or more threads about the AAC - football and hoops. Wut we'd do to y'all? LOL. I just want my alma mater to win big games...

(11-02-2020 11:39 AM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  Is it just me or is there some continuing fascination with the AAC? Every time I come over to this board there are one or more threads about the AAC - football and hoops. Wut we'd do to y'all? LOL. I just want my alma mater to win big games...

Y'all are debateable.

Post a thread that the PAC is a power conference? Crickets.
Post a thread that the MAC is way below the level of the Big 10? Crickets
Compare the Missouri Valley Football Conference to the MWC, and MWC >>>> MVFC? Yawn.

"The AAC is a Basketball Power Conference / Midmajor / Tweener League" "Well, ACKSHUALLLY...."
"AAC football is P6!!" nuh un....Yuh huh...etc etc

(11-02-2020 12:11 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(11-02-2020 11:39 AM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  Is it just me or is there some continuing fascination with the AAC? Every time I come over to this board there are one or more threads about the AAC - football and hoops. Wut we'd do to y'all? LOL. I just want my alma mater to win big games...

Y'all are debateable.

Post a thread that the PAC is a power conference? Crickets.
Post a thread that the MAC is way below the level of the Big 10? Crickets
Compare the Missouri Valley Football Conference to the MWC, and MWC >>>> MVFC? Yawn.

"The AAC is a Basketball Power Conference / Midmajor / Tweener League" "Well, ACKSHUALLLY...."
"AAC football is P6!!" nuh un....Yuh huh...etc etc

Fair enough. Just know we didn't ask for this LOL.

(11-02-2020 11:04 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(11-02-2020 08:38 AM)Eldonabe Wrote:  My "pereniality" position still holds true.

It is not about each school, it is about the conference as a whole. As good as Cincy or Memphis may be more often than not, you are still in a group that is not winning many/any ties when head to head versus a P6 of similar status. I agree that the tournament is starting to squeeze out the mid majors - but that (again) is a function of your CONFERENCE status, not your school.

I really wanted to argue about this, but it's facts. LEt's say Cincinatti is strong this year, on the bubble with--looking at ESPN's bracketology and pretending it's a normal year and this bracket were real--Ole Miss. Ole Miss has the edge, because they have games with 6 tournament teams in-conference, while Cinci only has 2. And all the non-tournament teams in the SEC get an SOS boost, while the non-tournament AAC teams drag each other down.

The NET is supposed to reduce that effect, but it's still there and it's still real.

And that's for Cincinnati, who has the history to get respect. If South Florida puts together that kind of a year? NIT, and maybe next year.

Quote:Like I said - a bad year for a P6 is only 4 teams making the tournament, any mid major would wet themselves to get that many in any year. That is the bar that the AAC need to hurdle to be considered a P-anything in the court of public opinion.

I think you're failing to recognize the perenniality of the AAC and A-10's tweener status. Over 2014-19, those leagues averaged 3 bids per year.

And just as Cincinnati is at a disadvantage on the bubble vs an Ole Miss or a Rutgers, a Miami of Ohio is at a similar disadvantage vs Cincinnati, if they don't win the MAC.

You and I are basically agreeing here John. and the bolded just proves my point, the AAC and possibly the A-10 are one step (or two) short of "P" status. As well as the WAC and possibly the MVC........

(11-02-2020 02:16 PM)Eldonabe Wrote:  You and I are basically agreeing here John. and the bolded just proves my point, the AAC and possibly the A-10 are one step (or two) short of "P" status. As well as the WAC and possibly the MVC........

Do you mean the WAC circa 1998?

(11-02-2020 11:39 AM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  Is it just me or is there some continuing fascination with the AAC? Every time I come over to this board there are one or more threads about the AAC - football and hoops. Wut we'd do to y'all? LOL. I just want my alma mater to win big games...

Thing is, the threads are usually started by backers of AAC schools. Go figure.

(11-02-2020 12:32 PM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  

(11-02-2020 12:11 PM)johnbragg Wrote:  

(11-02-2020 11:39 AM)UCGrad1992 Wrote:  Is it just me or is there some continuing fascination with the AAC? Every time I come over to this board there are one or more threads about the AAC - football and hoops. Wut we'd do to y'all? LOL. I just want my alma mater to win big games...

Y'all are debateable.

Post a thread that the PAC is a power conference? Crickets.
Post a thread that the MAC is way below the level of the Big 10? Crickets
Compare the Missouri Valley Football Conference to the MWC, and MWC >>>> MVFC? Yawn.

"The AAC is a Basketball Power Conference / Midmajor / Tweener League" "Well, ACKSHUALLLY...."
"AAC football is P6!!" nuh un....Yuh huh...etc etc

Fair enough. Just know we didn't ask for this LOL.

Well, the AAC kinda does, because the AAC as led by Aresco is the only conference of the past 10 years to really officially "push itself" in terms of arguing for enhanced status. The whole "P6" thing, and Aresco constantly talking about the AAC being underappreciated or great or whatever.

The AAC, at least its official mouthpieces, frequently push a narrative about how good the conference is, and how others (fans, the media) should perceive it as being, so it is pretty much inviting/provoking discussion about that.