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Buy or Sell: BYU/Cincy to the Playoff?
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Post: #201
RE: Buy or Sell: BYU/Cincy to the Playoff?
There really needs to be an industry standard regarding coaches in the NCAA staying with their existing job through the end of the season rather than quoting early to take a new job
11-19-2020 02:01 PM
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Post: #202
RE: Buy or Sell: BYU/Cincy to the Playoff?
(11-18-2020 02:34 PM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  
(11-18-2020 02:27 PM)bullet Wrote:  An unbeaten team is something special. There's a committment there.
As for Briles I don't fault him for not being there for the bowl after they already had a loss. I fault him for not being there mentally for the ccg when he was still being paid. The team was clearly unprepared.

Unless you're in the G5.

And I think you're referring to Sumlin

Maybe. The UH team that lost the ccg to Southern Miss.
11-19-2020 02:57 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #203
RE: Buy or Sell: BYU/Cincy to the Playoff?
(11-19-2020 12:47 PM)Arch Stanton Wrote:  
(11-19-2020 12:01 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(11-19-2020 11:58 AM)Arch Stanton Wrote:  
(11-19-2020 10:37 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(11-18-2020 10:53 PM)Arch Stanton Wrote:  I don't think we would all do the same. Frost and Fleck both stayed and coached their undefeated teams in a New Years Day Bowl. I know coaches leave to take better jobs all the time but in this case leaving an undefeated team about to play in New Years Day Bowl was not the right thing to do IMO. Kirby Smart stayed as DC after he took the Ga job.

I would like to think that Kelly would have gotten more recruits by demonstrating loyalty and stayed to coach Cincy for the bowl game.

We'd have to know the situation. A coach can ask to remain, as Frost did with UCF and Smart did with Georgia, and maybe they say "yes" like UNL and Georgia did. But what if Kelly had told ND he wanted to stay with Cincy through the bowl game and they said "no, we need you now"? Then we would all leave then and there.

To make your case, you'd have to know that the Irish indicated that Kelly could wait until after the Sugar Bowl and Kelly decided to leave early anyway. But we do not know that.

As for recruits, I seriously doubt how Kelly left Cincy impacted that in 2011, much less 2021. Kelly is hardly the first coach to leave a team before the season was over, had happened before, has happened again, will happen again.

We do not know what was discussed but observing Kelly over the years I doubt he pushed hard if at all to coach Cincy in the bowl game. I would like to think ND would have admired Kelly's request to finish the season with Cincy but again I was not privy to the conversations. They could have announced Kelly as the new hire like Nebraska did with Frost so that Kelly could start recruiting for ND but coach Cincy for the bowl game.

Sure, Notre Dame could have allowed Kelly to coach Cincy in the bowl game. But they had no obligation to, and it is understandable that they would want him to jump in to recruiting right away. But Kelly couldn't control that, and if the Irish insisted that he come now, there's no way anyone should have expected him to refuse.

Nobody expected him to refuse if ND gave him the ultimatum to come now or forget the job because almost always coaches look out only for themselves but of course he could have refused the offer.

Replace "coaches" with "just about everyone". We all look out for ourselves.

Sure, Kelly could have refused the offer in the face of an ultimatum. But IMO, if ND told Kelly he had to start right now, without coaching the Cincy bowl game, or else they would move on to another candidate, it would be preposterous for anyone to expect him to pass on that kind of job in order to coach Cincy in the bowl game. That would be a ridonculous expectation.
11-19-2020 03:20 PM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #204
RE: Buy or Sell: BYU/Cincy to the Playoff?
(11-19-2020 02:01 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  There really needs to be an industry standard regarding coaches in the NCAA staying with their existing job through the end of the season rather than quoting early to take a new job

You can't have an industry standard, as that would be a restraint of trade. But clauses that disincentivize leaving early could be written in to individual contracts, e.g., a contract could say that if the coach leaves before the conclusion of the bowl season, then he owes the university "X" amount of money, etc.

That's about the most that can be done. People do have the right to quit one job and take another, and when they want to not necessarily when it's most convenient for the employer.
(This post was last modified: 11-19-2020 03:24 PM by quo vadis.)
11-19-2020 03:22 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #205
RE: Buy or Sell: BYU/Cincy to the Playoff?
The coaching profession can be very nasty related to moving from one job to the next. Not as much loyalty as I would prefer to see.
11-19-2020 03:27 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #206
RE: Buy or Sell: BYU/Cincy to the Playoff?
(11-18-2020 05:23 PM)esayem Wrote:  
(11-18-2020 05:04 PM)SuperFlyBCat Wrote:  
(11-18-2020 04:57 PM)esayem Wrote:  I think you just helped illustrate Quo’s point.

Are you the UC hater? There is 1 UNC poster who hates UC. Can't remember if that is you or someone else?

If by hater you mean the poster that doesn’t want the ACC to expand with Cincinnati or any other school, then yes. If you mean the poster who is a fan of John Brannen, then yes. If you mean the poster who actually owns an old school Danny Fortson jersey, then yes. I be that hater, matey.


You can be a "closet Bearcat fan," esayem. Glad to have you on the UC fan team.
11-19-2020 03:43 PM
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WhoseHouse? Offline
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Post: #207
RE: Buy or Sell: BYU/Cincy to the Playoff?
(11-19-2020 02:57 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(11-18-2020 02:34 PM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  
(11-18-2020 02:27 PM)bullet Wrote:  An unbeaten team is something special. There's a committment there.
As for Briles I don't fault him for not being there for the bowl after they already had a loss. I fault him for not being there mentally for the ccg when he was still being paid. The team was clearly unprepared.

Unless you're in the G5.

And I think you're referring to Sumlin

Maybe. The UH team that lost the ccg to Southern Miss.

Yah that was the 2011 team with Keenum. Sumlin basically wasnt at practice the whole week leading up to the CCG. Too busy interviewing for the TAMU job. Probably robbed us of a NY6 bowl, is what it is. Our consolation prize was that we got to stomp Penn St. during the height of the Sandusky scandal so that was kind of satisfying. Again you can't fault someone for moving on to greener pastures and you can't fault schools for trying to hire coaches ASAP. I just wish the NCAA would come out with a hardline saying you can't contact prospective hires until after the bowl season.
11-19-2020 04:02 PM
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bullet Offline
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Post: #208
RE: Buy or Sell: BYU/Cincy to the Playoff?
(11-19-2020 04:02 PM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  
(11-19-2020 02:57 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(11-18-2020 02:34 PM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  
(11-18-2020 02:27 PM)bullet Wrote:  An unbeaten team is something special. There's a committment there.
As for Briles I don't fault him for not being there for the bowl after they already had a loss. I fault him for not being there mentally for the ccg when he was still being paid. The team was clearly unprepared.

Unless you're in the G5.

And I think you're referring to Sumlin

Maybe. The UH team that lost the ccg to Southern Miss.

Yah that was the 2011 team with Keenum. Sumlin basically wasnt at practice the whole week leading up to the CCG. Too busy interviewing for the TAMU job. Probably robbed us of a NY6 bowl, is what it is. Our consolation prize was that we got to stomp Penn St. during the height of the Sandusky scandal so that was kind of satisfying. Again you can't fault someone for moving on to greener pastures and you can't fault schools for trying to hire coaches ASAP. I just wish the NCAA would come out with a hardline saying you can't contact prospective hires until after the bowl season.

I don't fault them for moving. I fault them for not doing the job they are getting paid for. And he didn't.
11-19-2020 04:48 PM
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Arch Stanton Offline
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Post: #209
RE: Buy or Sell: BYU/Cincy to the Playoff?
(11-19-2020 03:20 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(11-19-2020 12:47 PM)Arch Stanton Wrote:  
(11-19-2020 12:01 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(11-19-2020 11:58 AM)Arch Stanton Wrote:  
(11-19-2020 10:37 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  We'd have to know the situation. A coach can ask to remain, as Frost did with UCF and Smart did with Georgia, and maybe they say "yes" like UNL and Georgia did. But what if Kelly had told ND he wanted to stay with Cincy through the bowl game and they said "no, we need you now"? Then we would all leave then and there.

To make your case, you'd have to know that the Irish indicated that Kelly could wait until after the Sugar Bowl and Kelly decided to leave early anyway. But we do not know that.

As for recruits, I seriously doubt how Kelly left Cincy impacted that in 2011, much less 2021. Kelly is hardly the first coach to leave a team before the season was over, had happened before, has happened again, will happen again.

We do not know what was discussed but observing Kelly over the years I doubt he pushed hard if at all to coach Cincy in the bowl game. I would like to think ND would have admired Kelly's request to finish the season with Cincy but again I was not privy to the conversations. They could have announced Kelly as the new hire like Nebraska did with Frost so that Kelly could start recruiting for ND but coach Cincy for the bowl game.

Sure, Notre Dame could have allowed Kelly to coach Cincy in the bowl game. But they had no obligation to, and it is understandable that they would want him to jump in to recruiting right away. But Kelly couldn't control that, and if the Irish insisted that he come now, there's no way anyone should have expected him to refuse.

Nobody expected him to refuse if ND gave him the ultimatum to come now or forget the job because almost always coaches look out only for themselves but of course he could have refused the offer.

Replace "coaches" with "just about everyone". We all look out for ourselves.

Sure, Kelly could have refused the offer in the face of an ultimatum. But IMO, if ND told Kelly he had to start right now, without coaching the Cincy bowl game, or else they would move on to another candidate, it would be preposterous for anyone to expect him to pass on that kind of job in order to coach Cincy in the bowl game. That would be a ridonculous expectation.

Kelly was the leader of Cincy football. I guess it is ridiculous that I would expect him to stay at Cincy and coach the bowl but I have a high standards for people especially leaders so yes I think he should have stayed.

I'm good on this subject I think we should agree to disagree
11-19-2020 08:33 PM
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SuperFlyBCat Online
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Post: #210
RE: Buy or Sell: BYU/Cincy to the Playoff?
(11-19-2020 04:02 PM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  
(11-19-2020 02:57 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(11-18-2020 02:34 PM)WhoseHouse? Wrote:  
(11-18-2020 02:27 PM)bullet Wrote:  An unbeaten team is something special. There's a committment there.
As for Briles I don't fault him for not being there for the bowl after they already had a loss. I fault him for not being there mentally for the ccg when he was still being paid. The team was clearly unprepared.

Unless you're in the G5.

And I think you're referring to Sumlin

Maybe. The UH team that lost the ccg to Southern Miss.

Yah that was the 2011 team with Keenum. Sumlin basically wasnt at practice the whole week leading up to the CCG. Too busy interviewing for the TAMU job. Probably robbed us of a NY6 bowl, is what it is. Our consolation prize was that we got to stomp Penn St. during the height of the Sandusky scandal so that was kind of satisfying. Again you can't fault someone for moving on to greener pastures and you can't fault schools for trying to hire coaches ASAP. I just wish the NCAA would come out with a hardline saying you can't contact prospective hires until after the bowl season.

Was that in the old Cotton Bowl stadium? I recall watching that game.
11-19-2020 08:49 PM
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JUSTGOPLAY Offline
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Post: #211
RE: Buy or Sell: BYU/Cincy to the Playoff?
(11-19-2020 08:33 PM)Arch Stanton Wrote:  
(11-19-2020 03:20 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(11-19-2020 12:47 PM)Arch Stanton Wrote:  
(11-19-2020 12:01 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(11-19-2020 11:58 AM)Arch Stanton Wrote:  We do not know what was discussed but observing Kelly over the years I doubt he pushed hard if at all to coach Cincy in the bowl game. I would like to think ND would have admired Kelly's request to finish the season with Cincy but again I was not privy to the conversations. They could have announced Kelly as the new hire like Nebraska did with Frost so that Kelly could start recruiting for ND but coach Cincy for the bowl game.

Sure, Notre Dame could have allowed Kelly to coach Cincy in the bowl game. But they had no obligation to, and it is understandable that they would want him to jump in to recruiting right away. But Kelly couldn't control that, and if the Irish insisted that he come now, there's no way anyone should have expected him to refuse.

Nobody expected him to refuse if ND gave him the ultimatum to come now or forget the job because almost always coaches look out only for themselves but of course he could have refused the offer.

Replace "coaches" with "just about everyone". We all look out for ourselves.

Sure, Kelly could have refused the offer in the face of an ultimatum. But IMO, if ND told Kelly he had to start right now, without coaching the Cincy bowl game, or else they would move on to another candidate, it would be preposterous for anyone to expect him to pass on that kind of job in order to coach Cincy in the bowl game. That would be a ridonculous expectation.

Kelly was the leader of Cincy football. I guess it is ridiculous that I would expect him to stay at Cincy and coach the bowl but I have a high standards for people especially leaders so yes I think he should have stayed.
a
I'm good on this subject I think we should agree to disagree
The Kelly situation was tough on everybody. My take was always Kelly didn't owe us fans a thing. Fans will turn on a coach like a pit bull if he has a couple of losing seasons, but he should have never left his guys hangin the way he did at 12-0 and Florida in a couple of weeks. If ND really said now or never Kelly was in a hell of a tough spot, and Notre Dame is Notre Dame. If life were fair Kelly would have stayed through the Sugar Bowl then moved on, but it didn't work out that way. I was glad that Kelly came back last year and was pretty well received by the fans.
11-19-2020 09:03 PM
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Crayton Online
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Post: #212
RE: Buy or Sell: BYU/Cincy to the Playoff?
Cincy at 20%
BYU at 13%
with no one in the Top 8 losing the margins thinned considerably.
11-22-2020 07:21 AM
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RUScarlets Offline
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RE: Buy or Sell: BYU/Cincy to the Playoff?
Fla will be out with a loss to Bama in the CCG. So it’s down to Clemson ND Bama OSU/NWU UC BYU Oregon. If I am BYU I would try scheduling A&M on CCG weekend. Winner would get in if Clemson loses to ND again. Is the SEC staging makeup games for non division winners on CCG weekend?
(This post was last modified: 11-22-2020 08:41 AM by RUScarlets.)
11-22-2020 08:39 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #214
RE: Buy or Sell: BYU/Cincy to the Playoff?
(11-22-2020 08:39 AM)RUScarlets Wrote:  Fla will be out with a loss to Bama in the CCG. So it’s down to Clemson ND Bama OSU/NWU UC BYU Oregon. If I am BYU I would try scheduling A&M on CCG weekend. Winner would get in if Clemson loses to ND again. Is the SEC staging makeup games for non division winners on CCG weekend?

The SEC is not currently doing that, it is sticking with its no OOC games policy. But as we know, things can change.
11-22-2020 08:50 AM
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RUScarlets Offline
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RE: Buy or Sell: BYU/Cincy to the Playoff?
Really feel we need an “At Large” game in the 12pm ET slot, but not sure how the logistics would work. Would have to be neutral site. It’s not fair that division runner ups can get in without playing 13 games, while you penalize the undefeated or higher standing division winner by making them play a CCG. Highest two ranked P5 or Indy not playing a 13th game or something of the sort.
(This post was last modified: 11-22-2020 11:17 AM by RUScarlets.)
11-22-2020 11:15 AM
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CitrusUCF Offline
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RE: Buy or Sell: BYU/Cincy to the Playoff?
I hope Cincy doesn't make the playoff. If they do, they are going to get curbstomped and that will be used as evidence against the G5 ever making it again in perpetuity. UCF is bad, and we should have won last night. This Cincy team has no business playing Alabama. This is the same offense that got shut out by Ohio State last year. Alabama will hold them under 250 yards and 0 points. For all the good work Fickell has done building a strong defense that can go toe to toe with good P5 teams, the offense is not improved at all from last year.
(This post was last modified: 11-22-2020 11:41 AM by CitrusUCF.)
11-22-2020 11:40 AM
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esayem Offline
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RE: Buy or Sell: BYU/Cincy to the Playoff?
Texas A&M and Miami need to play in the Severely Overrated Bowl.
11-22-2020 11:51 AM
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schmolik Offline
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RE: Buy or Sell: BYU/Cincy to the Playoff?
(11-22-2020 11:51 AM)esayem Wrote:  Texas A&M and Miami need to play in the Severely Overrated Bowl.

Bulletin board material on December 12th?
11-22-2020 12:16 PM
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RE: Buy or Sell: BYU/Cincy to the Playoff?
(11-19-2020 08:33 PM)Arch Stanton Wrote:  
(11-19-2020 03:20 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(11-19-2020 12:47 PM)Arch Stanton Wrote:  
(11-19-2020 12:01 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(11-19-2020 11:58 AM)Arch Stanton Wrote:  We do not know what was discussed but observing Kelly over the years I doubt he pushed hard if at all to coach Cincy in the bowl game. I would like to think ND would have admired Kelly's request to finish the season with Cincy but again I was not privy to the conversations. They could have announced Kelly as the new hire like Nebraska did with Frost so that Kelly could start recruiting for ND but coach Cincy for the bowl game.

Sure, Notre Dame could have allowed Kelly to coach Cincy in the bowl game. But they had no obligation to, and it is understandable that they would want him to jump in to recruiting right away. But Kelly couldn't control that, and if the Irish insisted that he come now, there's no way anyone should have expected him to refuse.

Nobody expected him to refuse if ND gave him the ultimatum to come now or forget the job because almost always coaches look out only for themselves but of course he could have refused the offer.

Replace "coaches" with "just about everyone". We all look out for ourselves.

Sure, Kelly could have refused the offer in the face of an ultimatum. But IMO, if ND told Kelly he had to start right now, without coaching the Cincy bowl game, or else they would move on to another candidate, it would be preposterous for anyone to expect him to pass on that kind of job in order to coach Cincy in the bowl game. That would be a ridonculous expectation.

Kelly was the leader of Cincy football. I guess it is ridiculous that I would expect him to stay at Cincy and coach the bowl but I have a high standards for people especially leaders so yes I think he should have stayed.

I'm good on this subject I think we should agree to disagree

Other coaches have done so, even some assistants.
11-22-2020 12:33 PM
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BePcr07 Offline
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RE: Buy or Sell: BYU/Cincy to the Playoff?
(11-22-2020 12:33 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(11-19-2020 08:33 PM)Arch Stanton Wrote:  
(11-19-2020 03:20 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(11-19-2020 12:47 PM)Arch Stanton Wrote:  
(11-19-2020 12:01 PM)quo vadis Wrote:  Sure, Notre Dame could have allowed Kelly to coach Cincy in the bowl game. But they had no obligation to, and it is understandable that they would want him to jump in to recruiting right away. But Kelly couldn't control that, and if the Irish insisted that he come now, there's no way anyone should have expected him to refuse.

Nobody expected him to refuse if ND gave him the ultimatum to come now or forget the job because almost always coaches look out only for themselves but of course he could have refused the offer.

Replace "coaches" with "just about everyone". We all look out for ourselves.

Sure, Kelly could have refused the offer in the face of an ultimatum. But IMO, if ND told Kelly he had to start right now, without coaching the Cincy bowl game, or else they would move on to another candidate, it would be preposterous for anyone to expect him to pass on that kind of job in order to coach Cincy in the bowl game. That would be a ridonculous expectation.

Kelly was the leader of Cincy football. I guess it is ridiculous that I would expect him to stay at Cincy and coach the bowl but I have a high standards for people especially leaders so yes I think he should have stayed.

I'm good on this subject I think we should agree to disagree

Other coaches have done so, even some assistants.

That’s not a great argument on why it was okay that Kelly left. I do agree that facing an ultimatum, which is highly likely, he should have left. I don’t agree that this seems to be the norm for “promotions.” I think some regulation is required here that would mandate a coach cannot abandon a team before the final game of that season is played for that team which includes bowls. I think it displays a lack of commitment which is a poor leadership trait. You’re already going to leave. But, given the current climate on this topic, so what is best for you and your family.
11-22-2020 12:39 PM
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