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WMInTheBurg Offline
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Post: #121
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(11-02-2020 02:20 PM)Tribal Wrote:  It's rare, but Twitter does offer decent conversations. This thread is a good read. Author is a prolific contributor on the AGS FCS message board.

Good morning.

"I reached out to a handful of folks over the weekend that follow William & Mary and the Patriot League closely. Nobody told me that any move is imminent, but I also didn’t hear from anyone who thought such a move would be implausible."

https://t.co/4kST0Do45e

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

That link was to the article Tank posted...
11-02-2020 02:48 PM
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DSL Offline
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Post: #122
RE: Shared Path Forward...
The Daily Press reports men's swimming raised 2.5 million this weekend for a total donation of 3.68 million to add to their already existing 3 million endowment.
They are clearly self supporting, but the College has agreed to cancel them to settle the Title 9 lawsuit. So what will the College do now?
Will the team be cancelled by the Marxist totalitarian Title 9 law despite needing few if any resources from the College.
11-03-2020 11:02 AM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #123
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(11-03-2020 11:02 AM)DSL Wrote:  The Daily Press reports men's swimming raised 2.5 million this weekend for a total donation of 3.68 million to add to their already existing 3 million endowment.
They are clearly self supporting, but the College has agreed to cancel them to settle the Title 9 lawsuit. So what will the College do now?
Will the team be cancelled by the Marxist totalitarian Title 9 law despite needing few if any resources from the College.

I have a different take.

Title 9 is no longer a practical impediment to reinstatement of men’s track, swimming, and gymnastics ... the womens’ teams want them reinstated for, among other reasons, the betterment of the womens’ teams.

No womens’ team is going to raise Title 9 objections.

On the other hand, some other mens’ teams might, if they end up getting squeezed with the reinstatement of the Tribe 4 .... kind of ironic.

This is uncharted territory for Title 9.
(This post was last modified: 11-03-2020 11:17 AM by nj alum.)
11-03-2020 11:17 AM
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DSL Offline
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Post: #124
RE: Shared Path Forward...
Is the College legally bound to cut the teams under the terms of the settlement of the recent litigation? Will reinstating the team also reinstate the suit?
The women's teams were the plaintiffs, I presume, so maybe they can block any reinstatement of the suit and allow the College to find another pathway out of
this mess.
11-03-2020 11:31 AM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #125
RE: Shared Path Forward...
Not privy to the details of the deal ... but the plaintiffs want the mens’ teams back.
(This post was last modified: 11-03-2020 12:12 PM by nj alum.)
11-03-2020 11:40 AM
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Tribe2011 Offline
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Post: #126
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(11-03-2020 11:40 AM)nj alum Wrote:  Not privy to the details of the deal ... but the plaintiffs want the mens’ teams back.

That's not quite how Title IX works though. You don't get to be in violation of it just because the corresponding women's team is OK with it. The school would be subject to federal sanctions if proven not to be in compliance.
11-03-2020 01:24 PM
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TribePride91 Offline
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Post: #127
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(11-03-2020 01:24 PM)Tribe2011 Wrote:  
(11-03-2020 11:40 AM)nj alum Wrote:  Not privy to the details of the deal ... but the plaintiffs want the mens’ teams back.

That's not quite how Title IX works though. You don't get to be in violation of it just because the corresponding women's team is OK with it. The school would be subject to federal sanctions if proven not to be in compliance.

I get the general premise of that, but there are numerous schools that are currently not in full compliance with Title 9 without dealing with sanctions. I would think that at a minimum it will require some effort to add more women athletes. Wasn't Title 9 the main reason wrestling was cut years ago??
11-03-2020 01:33 PM
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WMInTheBurg Offline
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Post: #128
RE: Shared Path Forward...
Given that the lawsuit was threatened in the first place, the College would be remiss if they did not make moves to avoid the threat of a future lawsuit, IMO.
11-03-2020 01:57 PM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #129
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(11-03-2020 01:24 PM)Tribe2011 Wrote:  
(11-03-2020 11:40 AM)nj alum Wrote:  Not privy to the details of the deal ... but the plaintiffs want the mens’ teams back.

That's not quite how Title IX works though. You don't get to be in violation of it just because the corresponding women's team is OK with it. The school would be subject to federal sanctions if proven not to be in compliance.

I was simply responding to DSL’s post re: the plaintiffs ... not about how Title 9 works.

As to your point, you do get to be in violation of Title 9 if no one makes it an issue. The womens’ teams at W&M, the ones who made it an issue, will not make it an issue. And since no one has made it an issue for the past several decades in which the school was not in compliance ...

That’s why this is uncharted territory, as I said in my first post of the day. From a practical standpoint, as of 11/3/20, I don’t think Title 9 is a dealbreaker for reinstating the Tribe 4 as ... who’s going to complain. Another mens’ team?
(This post was last modified: 11-03-2020 02:49 PM by nj alum.)
11-03-2020 02:45 PM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #130
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(11-03-2020 01:57 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  Given that the lawsuit was threatened in the first place, the College would be remiss if they did not make moves to avoid the threat of a future lawsuit, IMO.

The lawsuit was threatened by cut womens’ sports. That’s not going to happen again.

Who’s going to sue? Football? Baseball? Men’s hoops? It’s not going to come from W&M women.
11-03-2020 02:48 PM
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Tribe2011 Offline
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Post: #131
RE: Shared Path Forward...
Entirely true it's uncertain. But I think it's a different situation for a lot of the other schools because they're not "publicly" out compliance. It's not just a matter of someone suing - the federal government could take enforcement action on their own, and I would think would feel they have to if it's publicly reported WM is out of compliance and it's not fixed.

Beyond that, all it would take would be one disgruntled member of one of the cut men's teams to file a lawsuit for revenge to cause major problems.

So for those reasons, I can't imagine remaining out of compliance with Title IX is an option. It would be really irresponsible.
11-03-2020 03:09 PM
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DSL Offline
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Post: #132
RE: Shared Path Forward...
Many colleges are out of compliance.
Our problem is that we have now been exposed and in a very public manner.
Remaining out of compliance is not a real option, but rejecting the efforts
of these male athletes and their donors would be awful.

I'd like to see a very public appeal to donors to save all current sports and add another sport for women. We would need our high profile alums and former coaches (some of whom were recently burned by the former AD) to appeal for funds. I'm not certain one additional female sport will completely close the compliance gap, but it's a good faith effort.
11-03-2020 03:27 PM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #133
RE: Shared Path Forward...
Tribe 2011-

I don’t disagree.

But the unique situation here is that if W&M goes for compliance, three of their womens’ teams are weaker... and the womens’ teams are “asking” the school to remain out of compliance so that they are not made weaker.

That’s why I think this is uncharted territory.
(This post was last modified: 11-03-2020 03:29 PM by nj alum.)
11-03-2020 03:28 PM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #134
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(11-03-2020 03:27 PM)DSL Wrote:  Many colleges are out of compliance.
Our problem is that we have now been exposed and in a very public manner.
Remaining out of compliance is not a real option, but rejecting the efforts
of these male athletes and their donors would be awful.

I'd like to see a very public appeal to donors to save all current sports and add another sport for women. We would need our high profile alums and former coaches (some of whom were recently burned by the former AD) to appeal for funds. I'm not certain one additional female sport will completely close the compliance gap, but it's a good faith effort.

Actually, given the position of our womens’ teams wanting the men back, given donors stepping up to fund womens’ sports in honor of Rowe, and given the financial ravages of COVID, I think that defending a Title 9 lawsuit at this time would have a reasonable chance of success.
11-03-2020 03:33 PM
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DSL Offline
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Post: #135
RE: Shared Path Forward...
IT SAYS 23 SPORTS PROGRAMS!


Tribe Club Announces New Investment Opportunities
Earlier this month, William & Mary Athletics announced the recommended path forward for the department's existing financial challenges. To assist with these efforts, the Tribe Club is announcing new investment opportunities to help. In the weeks to come, additional information will be shared with Tribe Club donors and alumni regarding the detailed options of investment for the department's 23 sports programs, as well as donor benefits and student-athlete alumni networking opportunities.
11-16-2020 08:46 PM
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62Indian Online
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Post: #136
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(11-16-2020 08:46 PM)DSL Wrote:  IT SAYS 23 SPORTS PROGRAMS!


Tribe Club Announces New Investment Opportunities
Earlier this month, William & Mary Athletics announced the recommended path forward for the department's existing financial challenges. To assist with these efforts, the Tribe Club is announcing new investment opportunities to help. In the weeks to come, additional information will be shared with Tribe Club donors and alumni regarding the detailed options of investment for the department's 23 sports programs, as well as donor benefits and student-athlete alumni networking opportunities.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WHAT A DEAL!!
11-16-2020 11:28 PM
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Zorch Offline
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Post: #137
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(11-16-2020 11:28 PM)62Indian Wrote:  
(11-16-2020 08:46 PM)DSL Wrote:  IT SAYS 23 SPORTS PROGRAMS!


Tribe Club Announces New Investment Opportunities
Earlier this month, William & Mary Athletics announced the recommended path forward for the department's existing financial challenges. To assist with these efforts, the Tribe Club is announcing new investment opportunities to help. In the weeks to come, additional information will be shared with Tribe Club donors and alumni regarding the detailed options of investment for the department's 23 sports programs, as well as donor benefits and student-athlete alumni networking opportunities.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WHAT A DEAL!!

Fans better be ready to support 25 sports programs since it is apparent that the only way to reach Title IX compliance is to add women's rowing and softball.
11-17-2020 11:22 AM
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Tank55 Offline
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Post: #138
RE: Shared Path Forward...
Another enlightening read from yesterday's Extra Points, titled "Here's why Clemson actually cut their men's track team":

Quote:When I read that Clemson men’s track earned over $500K in contributions, I assumed that meant “cash donated from alumni and supporters.” What it really refers to is the money that IPTAY, Clemson’s independent booster club, pays in scholarship support. It’s essentially a pass-through. If there’s no track team, that money doesn’t go away, it just gets used somewhere else.

Quote:So the issue here isn’t that Clemson can’t afford to sponsor track. And to their credit, in all of their public correspondence, Clemson hasn’t made that claim. The issue here, really, is that Clemson doesn’t want to sponsor track anymore, or at least, that Clemson feels that it can deploy the resources needed to support track to a better location, elsewhere in the athletic department.

https://extrapoints.substack.com/p/heres...-cut-their
11-17-2020 11:57 AM
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Zorch Offline
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Post: #139
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(11-17-2020 11:57 AM)Tank55 Wrote:  Another enlightening read from yesterday's Extra Points, titled "Here's why Clemson actually cut their men's track team":

Quote:When I read that Clemson men’s track earned over $500K in contributions, I assumed that meant “cash donated from alumni and supporters.” What it really refers to is the money that IPTAY, Clemson’s independent booster club, pays in scholarship support. It’s essentially a pass-through. If there’s no track team, that money doesn’t go away, it just gets used somewhere else.

Quote:So the issue here isn’t that Clemson can’t afford to sponsor track. And to their credit, in all of their public correspondence, Clemson hasn’t made that claim. The issue here, really, is that Clemson doesn’t want to sponsor track anymore, or at least, that Clemson feels that it can deploy the resources needed to support track to a better location, elsewhere in the athletic department.

https://extrapoints.substack.com/p/heres...-cut-their

This paragraph was also good. You can easily think that they were writing about W&M instead of Clemson:

"At the end of the day, I only really ask for schools to be honest with themselves, and their constituents, about the kind of athletic department they want to be. If they don’t want to sponsor 24 sports anymore? Fine. Then make that argument, don’t hide behind COVID .... If you think sponsoring 26 sports is a core part of the university identity? That’s fine too. Just be prepared to argue why that is, and for what resources you’ll need to support it."

W&M slowly, laboriously, and finally came around to realizing the truth of that last sentence.
11-18-2020 10:14 AM
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