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Tribe4SF Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Shared Path Forward...
Zorch appears to be mostly unhappy with the format of the information sessions. I suppose we could host a truly open discussion session with everyone having an opportunity to pose their questions and make their points. Zorch should offer to develop and coordinate that. When it deteriorates into shouting matches between participants with opposing views we can then proclaim that Zorch "failed" to produce a productive session.

Martin has spent an enormous amount of time engaging the Tribe athletics family since his assignment. He acknowledged last evening that the required endowment level cited in the original release about dropping the 7 was not accurate or reasonable. He is waiting for the auditor's report to determine whether endowments have been managed and accounted for in a responsible way and has stated that they will be in the future. He outlined our reasoning for a commitment to DI athletics. He discussed "return-on-investment" for athletics in a holistic manner. He explained how a "quick fix" move to the Patriot League was anything but that. He announced that President Rowe will be meeting with athletes this week.

I am a supporter of the emphasis on football and basketball. The discussions I have seen regarding equity, diversity and inclusion frequently omit the contributions football has made to diversifying the College. I attended in the late 60s and watched the football program lead the way in integrating the College through the following 15 years. 43 members of the current football team are Black. Many of them are here on scholarship and would not have enrolled otherwise. Historically speaking, football alums have achieved at high levels post graduation and have left a legacy of those high expectations. I want that to continue.
10-29-2020 11:56 AM
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WMInTheBurg Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(10-29-2020 11:56 AM)Tribe4SF Wrote:  Martin has spent an enormous amount of time engaging the Tribe athletics family since his assignment. He acknowledged last evening that the required endowment level cited in the original release about dropping the 7 was not accurate or reasonable. He is waiting for the auditor's report to determine whether endowments have been managed and accounted for in a responsible way and has stated that they will be in the future. He outlined our reasoning for a commitment to DI athletics. He discussed "return-on-investment" for athletics in a holistic manner. He explained how a "quick fix" move to the Patriot League was anything but that. He announced that President Rowe will be meeting with athletes this week.

+1 04-clap2 04-cheers 03-yes
10-29-2020 12:15 PM
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zablenoise Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(10-29-2020 09:41 AM)DSL Wrote:  I don't understand why they won't use the third prong of Title 9 compliance.
They keep avoiding even discussing that prong.

I do think this is something that needs to be addressed. Is Martin's intention to get us into the 2% "safe harbor"? (Please, please let me have understood Title IX correctly this time.) Because I don't think we're there even with the reinstated women's sports let alone if we want to bring back the men's teams.
10-29-2020 12:25 PM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #64
Shared Path Forward...
If we're all being honest, most of us value football and basketball over all other sports. Looking back over 17 years of CAAzone and CSNBBS, we very rarely discuss any other sports. Unless you participated in other sports or love someone who did/does, you probably aren't that all concerned about losing them. We've celebrated soccer and baseball runs, a few select recruits, an athlete or two who set swimming or track records, etc but we focus on two sports.

Let's give Martin a fair chance, give cut 7 fans an opportunity to save currently cut sports, and support reasonable plans to move forward. Just make it a honorable process - that's all I ask.

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10-29-2020 12:27 PM
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Tribe32 Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(10-29-2020 12:27 PM)Tribal Wrote:  If we're all being honest, most of us value football and basketball over all other sports. Looking back over 17 years of CAAzone and CSNBBS, we very rarely discuss any other sports. Unless you participated in other sports or love someone who did/does, you probably aren't that all concerned about losing them. We've celebrated soccer and baseball runs, a few select recruits, an athlete or two who set swimming or track records, etc but we focus on two sports.

Let's give Martin a fair chance, give cut 7 fans an opportunity to save currently cut sports, and support reasonable plans to move forward. Just make it a honorable process - that's all I ask.

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If you simply look at attendance at the sporting events, football and basketball probably account for about 98% of the folks attending the events.
10-29-2020 12:31 PM
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WMInTheBurg Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(10-29-2020 12:31 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 12:27 PM)Tribal Wrote:  If we're all being honest, most of us value football and basketball over all other sports. Looking back over 17 years of CAAzone and CSNBBS, we very rarely discuss any other sports. Unless you participated in other sports or love someone who did/does, you probably aren't that all concerned about losing them. We've celebrated soccer and baseball runs, a few select recruits, an athlete or two who set swimming or track records, etc but we focus on two sports.

Let's give Martin a fair chance, give cut 7 fans an opportunity to save currently cut sports, and support reasonable plans to move forward. Just make it a honorable process - that's all I ask.

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If you simply look at attendance at the sporting events, football and basketball probably account for about 98% of the folks attending the events.

I think he addressed that... 92% was the number he cited.
10-29-2020 12:35 PM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(10-29-2020 12:35 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 12:31 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 12:27 PM)Tribal Wrote:  If we're all being honest, most of us value football and basketball over all other sports. Looking back over 17 years of CAAzone and CSNBBS, we very rarely discuss any other sports. Unless you participated in other sports or love someone who did/does, you probably aren't that all concerned about losing them. We've celebrated soccer and baseball runs, a few select recruits, an athlete or two who set swimming or track records, etc but we focus on two sports.

Let's give Martin a fair chance, give cut 7 fans an opportunity to save currently cut sports, and support reasonable plans to move forward. Just make it a honorable process - that's all I ask.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

If you simply look at attendance at the sporting events, football and basketball probably account for about 98% of the folks attending the events.

I think he addressed that... 92% was the number he cited.
Not quite. He said 92% *ticketed* attendance.

Some of our sports are walk in. No ticket needed. Football, basketball, baseball, and soccer require ticketed entrance...not sure about the others but definitely some are open admission.

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10-29-2020 12:39 PM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(10-29-2020 11:56 AM)Tribe4SF Wrote:  He outlined our reasoning for a commitment to DI athletics.

He explained how a "quick fix" move to the Patriot League was anything but that.

He announced that President Rowe will be meeting with athletes this week.

I am a supporter of the emphasis on football and basketball.

The discussions I have seen regarding equity, diversity and inclusion frequently omit the contributions football has made to diversifying the College.

I have picked out the points I want to address.

I support a commitment to fiscally responsible D-1 athletics. D-1 athletics, nationwide, is not fiscally responsible. I would like to see the College be bold and lead the charge for fiscally responsible D-1 Athletics, and not simply follow the crowd.

Since the College was almost a founding member of the Patriot League, and since Army and Navy compete in that league, I disagree that same is a quick fix. Following the crowd at the D-1 level is a bandaid, and not a fix.

I fail to see the significance of President Rowe’s meeting with athletes.

I am a 100% supporter of increased emphasis of football and hoops, but only after the futures of the rest of the sports are secured.

The cut sports have made the same contributions to equity, diversity, and inclusion.
10-29-2020 12:44 PM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #69
Shared Path Forward...
NJ, not all that long ago, you beat the drum the loudest to move to an FBS conference. Are you now supporting a move the the PL? Military academies don't play PL football and that matters. Either way, going from the next Wake Forest to the next Lafayette seems like a major switch in philosophy.

Rowe meeting with athletes is a big deal, not only to advance communication, but especially because that's exactly what women's track demanded.

No sport...none...has equalled football's contribution to race diversity. In fact, I'll bet every cut 7 sport combined doesn't equal 40 racially diverse athletes. SF wrote specifically to black student-athletes.

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(This post was last modified: 10-29-2020 01:07 PM by Tribal.)
10-29-2020 01:02 PM
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Tribe4SF Offline
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Post: #70
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(10-29-2020 12:44 PM)nj alum Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 11:56 AM)Tribe4SF Wrote:  He outlined our reasoning for a commitment to DI athletics.

He explained how a "quick fix" move to the Patriot League was anything but that.

He announced that President Rowe will be meeting with athletes this week.

I am a supporter of the emphasis on football and basketball.

The discussions I have seen regarding equity, diversity and inclusion frequently omit the contributions football has made to diversifying the College.

I have picked out the points I want to address.


The cut sports have made the same contributions to equity, diversity, and inclusion.

No they have not. Not sure when you were at W&M but when I arrived for preseason football camp in 1966 there were no black athletes at W&M. Marv Levy changed that and through the 70s black football players probably constituted the majority of black students at the school. Scroll through our rosters and see how many black faces you see.
10-29-2020 01:13 PM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #71
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(10-29-2020 01:02 PM)Tribal Wrote:  NJ, not all that long ago, you beat the drum the loudest to move to an FBS conference. Are you now supporting a move the the PL? Military academies don't play PL football and that matters. Either way, going from the next Wake Forest to the next Lafayette seems like a major switch in philosophy.

Rowe meeting with athletes is a big deal, not only to advance communication, but especially because that's exactly what women's track demanded.

No sport...none...has equalled football's contribution to race diversity. In fact, I'll bet every cut 7 sport combined doesn't equal 40 racially diverse athletes. SF wrote specifically to black student-athletes.

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The major switch in philosophy occurred seven weeks ago. That switch was done by the College, not by me. I’m reacting to the College’s switch.

Is Rowe meeting with the women’s track team? That was the demand.

SF wrote in broad language, and then referenced race. BTW, football’s “contribution to race diversity” ... your words ... doesn’t change one iota with “increased emphasis.” The other sports’ diversity contributions ends with termination.

You really want to go at it?
10-29-2020 01:18 PM
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Zorch Offline
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Post: #72
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(10-29-2020 09:39 AM)Tribal Wrote:  ...an in-person town hall meeting where he is forced to field a bunch of spittle-spraying questions

(10-29-2020 11:56 AM)Tribe4SF Wrote:  ...When it deteriorates into shouting matches between participants with opposing views ...

If the College suddenly changed course and announced it was dropping football and/or basketball then I wonder how the characterizations above would apply to their fans. Football fans would be tripping all over themselves in their righteous indignation. So how about according fans of the Cut7 the same right to voice their views? Surely you can see a scenario where you would be in their place. (I witnessed just such indignation in 1978).
10-29-2020 01:19 PM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #73
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(10-29-2020 01:13 PM)Tribe4SF Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 12:44 PM)nj alum Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 11:56 AM)Tribe4SF Wrote:  He outlined our reasoning for a commitment to DI athletics.

He explained how a "quick fix" move to the Patriot League was anything but that.

He announced that President Rowe will be meeting with athletes this week.

I am a supporter of the emphasis on football and basketball.

The discussions I have seen regarding equity, diversity and inclusion frequently omit the contributions football has made to diversifying the College.

I have picked out the points I want to address.


The cut sports have made the same contributions to equity, diversity, and inclusion.

No they have not. Not sure when you were at W&M but when I arrived for preseason football camp in 1966 there were no black athletes at W&M. Marv Levy changed that and through the 70s black football players probably constituted the majority of black students at the school. Scroll through our rosters and see how many black faces you see.

Diversity means more than race.

If you are talking strictly about race, I agree with you.
10-29-2020 01:20 PM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #74
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(10-29-2020 01:18 PM)nj alum Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 01:02 PM)Tribal Wrote:  NJ, not all that long ago, you beat the drum the loudest to move to an FBS conference. Are you now supporting a move the the PL? Military academies don't play PL football and that matters. Either way, going from the next Wake Forest to the next Lafayette seems like a major switch in philosophy.

Rowe meeting with athletes is a big deal, not only to advance communication, but especially because that's exactly what women's track demanded.

No sport...none...has equalled football's contribution to race diversity. In fact, I'll bet every cut 7 sport combined doesn't equal 40 racially diverse athletes. SF wrote specifically to black student-athletes.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

The major switch in philosophy occurred seven weeks ago. That switch was done by the College, not by me. I’m reacting to the College’s switch.

Is Rowe meeting with the women’s track team? That was the demand.

SF wrote in broad language, and then referenced race. BTW, football’s “contribution to race diversity” ... your words ... doesn’t change one iota with “increased emphasis.” The other sports’ diversity contributions ends with termination.

You really want to go at it?
Do I really want to go at it? Hell yeah I do...send it.

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(This post was last modified: 10-29-2020 01:20 PM by Tribal.)
10-29-2020 01:20 PM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #75
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(10-29-2020 01:20 PM)Tribal Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 01:18 PM)nj alum Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 01:02 PM)Tribal Wrote:  NJ, not all that long ago, you beat the drum the loudest to move to an FBS conference. Are you now supporting a move the the PL? Military academies don't play PL football and that matters. Either way, going from the next Wake Forest to the next Lafayette seems like a major switch in philosophy.

Rowe meeting with athletes is a big deal, not only to advance communication, but especially because that's exactly what women's track demanded.

No sport...none...has equalled football's contribution to race diversity. In fact, I'll bet every cut 7 sport combined doesn't equal 40 racially diverse athletes. SF wrote specifically to black student-athletes.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

The major switch in philosophy occurred seven weeks ago. That switch was done by the College, not by me. I’m reacting to the College’s switch.

Is Rowe meeting with the women’s track team? That was the demand.

SF wrote in broad language, and then referenced race. BTW, football’s “contribution to race diversity” ... your words ... doesn’t change one iota with “increased emphasis.” The other sports’ diversity contributions ends with termination.

You really want to go at it?
Do I really want to go at it? Hell yeah I do...send it.

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Your move.
10-29-2020 01:21 PM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #76
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(10-29-2020 01:21 PM)nj alum Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 01:20 PM)Tribal Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 01:18 PM)nj alum Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 01:02 PM)Tribal Wrote:  NJ, not all that long ago, you beat the drum the loudest to move to an FBS conference. Are you now supporting a move the the PL? Military academies don't play PL football and that matters. Either way, going from the next Wake Forest to the next Lafayette seems like a major switch in philosophy.

Rowe meeting with athletes is a big deal, not only to advance communication, but especially because that's exactly what women's track demanded.

No sport...none...has equalled football's contribution to race diversity. In fact, I'll bet every cut 7 sport combined doesn't equal 40 racially diverse athletes. SF wrote specifically to black student-athletes.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

The major switch in philosophy occurred seven weeks ago. That switch was done by the College, not by me. I’m reacting to the College’s switch.

Is Rowe meeting with the women’s track team? That was the demand.

SF wrote in broad language, and then referenced race. BTW, football’s “contribution to race diversity” ... your words ... doesn’t change one iota with “increased emphasis.” The other sports’ diversity contributions ends with termination.

You really want to go at it?
Do I really want to go at it? Hell yeah I do...send it.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

Your move.
No no, you're the tough guy with the threat. Get it off your chest.

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(This post was last modified: 10-29-2020 01:23 PM by Tribal.)
10-29-2020 01:22 PM
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Zorch Offline
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Post: #77
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(10-29-2020 11:48 AM)Tribal Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 11:29 AM)Zorch Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 09:50 AM)Tribal Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 09:40 AM)Zorch Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 09:33 AM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  Great job by Martin. He's providing a steady hand that will get us back on the right path. I really appreciate how he's not making rushed decisions about anything, but is re-evaluating the situation and showing his work.

Can't help but notice how the College rushed to settle the lawsuit and reinstate the three women's teams. They can move fast when they want to. (Which would also not have even been necessary if they hadn't rushed to cut seven teams under cover of pandemic).
You're kidding. Good call rushing to comply with federal law but deliberately working in phases to set forth a sustainable way forward. Ha ha.

I tend to file taxes by the April deadline to comply with federal law before deciding where to vacation or whether or not I should purchase that new Audi.

See bold immediately above. W&M did not rush to comply with federal law. They had been out of compliance with federal law for years and nobody cared and they had never done anything to stem the tide of ever-increasing female admission rates that were pushing them ever further from compliance. No, what they rushed to do was to stop and alleviate the ill effects from the lawsuit. It had nothing to do with wanting to comply with federal law; again, they had been willfully out of compliance for years. Are you aware that part of the settlement was $125K? After lawyer's fees, I wonder how much of that the women's teams are going to donate to W&M? That's another $125K that W&M added to its deficit.

To use your own tax analogy: to me, W&M's actions are more like the guy who pays no taxes for years and then, suddenly, when notified of an impending audit, he rushes to pay his back taxes.

Oh, I see, W&M's years of avoiding T9 paremeters (like most universities) is clearly Martin's fault. And, shame on him for taking a whole two days to act on it. Good grief.

Geez, Tribal, I never said that W&M's non-compliance was Martin's fault. Such statements detract from your credibility. It is also completely irrelevant that many other schools are noncompliant. When you get a speeding ticket the officer is not going to let you off after you complain that everyone else is speeding too (even if it is true). Re your "whole two days" comment: I and others have noted that Martin was in the AD job less than one whole day before he was lecturing the teams on the "proper" way to address this during his first broadcast.
10-29-2020 01:27 PM
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Tribe4SF Offline
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Post: #78
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(10-29-2020 01:20 PM)nj alum Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 01:13 PM)Tribe4SF Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 12:44 PM)nj alum Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 11:56 AM)Tribe4SF Wrote:  He outlined our reasoning for a commitment to DI athletics.

He explained how a "quick fix" move to the Patriot League was anything but that.

He announced that President Rowe will be meeting with athletes this week.

I am a supporter of the emphasis on football and basketball.

The discussions I have seen regarding equity, diversity and inclusion frequently omit the contributions football has made to diversifying the College.

I have picked out the points I want to address.


The cut sports have made the same contributions to equity, diversity, and inclusion.

No they have not. Not sure when you were at W&M but when I arrived for preseason football camp in 1966 there were no black athletes at W&M. Marv Levy changed that and through the 70s black football players probably constituted the majority of black students at the school. Scroll through our rosters and see how many black faces you see.

Diversity means more than race.

If you are talking strictly about race, I agree with you.

Good. And yes I was. Thought that was obvious.
10-29-2020 01:34 PM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #79
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(10-29-2020 01:34 PM)Tribe4SF Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 01:20 PM)nj alum Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 01:13 PM)Tribe4SF Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 12:44 PM)nj alum Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 11:56 AM)Tribe4SF Wrote:  He outlined our reasoning for a commitment to DI athletics.

He explained how a "quick fix" move to the Patriot League was anything but that.

He announced that President Rowe will be meeting with athletes this week.

I am a supporter of the emphasis on football and basketball.

The discussions I have seen regarding equity, diversity and inclusion frequently omit the contributions football has made to diversifying the College.

I have picked out the points I want to address.


The cut sports have made the same contributions to equity, diversity, and inclusion.

No they have not. Not sure when you were at W&M but when I arrived for preseason football camp in 1966 there were no black athletes at W&M. Marv Levy changed that and through the 70s black football players probably constituted the majority of black students at the school. Scroll through our rosters and see how many black faces you see.

Diversity means more than race.

If you are talking strictly about race, I agree with you.

Good. And yes I was. Thought that was obvious.

It was not obvious. Words mean things. “Equality, diversity, and inclusion” ... your words .... is more than race.

The elevation of football over the other sports re: “equality, diversity, and inclusion” just doesn’t fly. I hope you’ll agree.

The termination of the other sports is a setback for “equality, diversity, and inclusion”.
10-29-2020 01:44 PM
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Tribe4SF Offline
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Post: #80
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(10-29-2020 01:44 PM)nj alum Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 01:34 PM)Tribe4SF Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 01:20 PM)nj alum Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 01:13 PM)Tribe4SF Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 12:44 PM)nj alum Wrote:  I have picked out the points I want to address.


The cut sports have made the same contributions to equity, diversity, and inclusion.

No they have not. Not sure when you were at W&M but when I arrived for preseason football camp in 1966 there were no black athletes at W&M. Marv Levy changed that and through the 70s black football players probably constituted the majority of black students at the school. Scroll through our rosters and see how many black faces you see.

Diversity means more than race.

If you are talking strictly about race, I agree with you.

Good. And yes I was. Thought that was obvious.

It was not obvious. Words mean things. “Equality, diversity, and inclusion” ... your words .... is more than race.

The elevation of football over the other sports re: “equality, diversity, and inclusion” just doesn’t fly. I hope you’ll agree.

The termination of the other sports is a setback for “equality, diversity, and inclusion”.

You should be working for MSM. Pluck a sentence out of a statement and pretend the rest was never said.03-banghead
10-29-2020 01:52 PM
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