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Zorch Offline
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Post: #41
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(10-29-2020 09:10 AM)Tribal Wrote:  State how, exactly, he is failing 3 weeks after Rowe thrust him into a totally new position. He brought back female teams in an effort to thwart a lawsuit. He's held a number of public discussions and is honestly & ethically working with our stakeholders. To my knowledge, he's working to stabilize our budget as much as he can and he has provided an exact picture of where we stand, financially, and provided a number of potential options to get us even.

Ha ha, failing?

I have already spoken to most of these points but I'll be happy to do it again. First, the media events may be public but they are not "discussions" or "conversations". Discussions/conversations allow for two-way discourse. Everything Martin has done so far is one-way. W&M announced after Huge's firing that there would be "open dialogue". They call their efforts a "shared path forward"; however, there is no shared path. Martin is not allowing anyone else on the path -- he is not allowing anyone else to speak in a public format. That is why so many Open Letters are going out to the newspapers.

He is not "honestly and ethically working with our stakeholders". As many have said, the Department is less than forthcoming with financial and gender equity data. He has not provided "an exact picture of where we stand". The financial data that is seen is shown to be rife with irregularities. The figure that purports to show how much endowment is needed has been proven to be grossly overinflated. I repeat, refusing to allow true discourse is NOT working with the constituency.

So, yeah, I call that failing.
10-29-2020 09:27 AM
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nj alum Online
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Post: #42
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(10-29-2020 08:51 AM)Zorch Wrote:  A proposal by a former Tribe swimmer that makes lots of good points:

https://616e0124-2790-47d0-96a7-e87abf76...f5d0b1.pdf

A proposal that makes a lot of great points.

I do find it interesting that no one ...NO ONE ... is talking about a prime culprit to the structural deficit in the Athletics Department, so I’ll talk about it with a question.

In order for William and Mary Athletics to break even for 2020-2021, what should the costs to attend W&M be?

Any accountants on here? $2,000,000 structural deficit per year per Tribal. If it cost $50K/$30K (out of state/in state) rather than $60K/$40K, does the structural deficit disappear?

In other words, has the constant increase in the costs to attend W&M outstripped the ability of the athletics community to support athletics?

This needs to be put on the table.
10-29-2020 09:30 AM
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Zorch Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(10-29-2020 09:14 AM)wml33t Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 09:10 AM)Tribal Wrote:  State how, exactly, he is failing 3 weeks after Rowe thrust him into a totally new position. He brought back female teams in an effort to thwart a lawsuit. He's held a number of public discussions and is honestly & ethically working with our stakeholders. To my knowledge, he's working to stabilize our budget as much as he can and he has provided an exact picture of where we stand, financially, and provided a number of potential options to get us even.

Ha ha, failing?

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He's failing because he's not doing it exactly how Zorch wants him to. Rash decisions are ok, as long as they are the ones Zorch wants.

The rash decision was cutting the sports -- I don't think anyone disputes that now. It also has nothing to do with what Zorch wants but has everything to do with the Administration actually doing what they said they were going to do (open dialogue).
10-29-2020 09:32 AM
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WMInTheBurg Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Shared Path Forward...
Great job by Martin. He's providing a steady hand that will get us back on the right path. I really appreciate how he's not making rushed decisions about anything, but is re-evaluating the situation and showing his work.
10-29-2020 09:33 AM
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mrjoolius Offline
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Post: #45
Shared Path Forward...
Got around to finally watching the presentation. I came away impressed with Martin and didn't sense the arrogant vibes that were mentioned in an earlier post. He may not be giving the answers everyone wants to hear, but I can't recall any AD being as frank or open about what happens behind the curtains in the AD office. I mentioned before that the department needs to decide what it wants to be, and work to move forward. I thought he did a pretty good job of spelling out the vision. D1 is the future. Patriot league doesn't fit with where we want to be. Acknowledged the investment and importance of a relevant football and basketball program. As much as a budget allows, provide a high level D1 experience for all W&M athletes.
10-29-2020 09:35 AM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #46
Shared Path Forward...
There's this COVID-19 thing going on so, maybe an in-person town hall meeting where he is forced to field a bunch of spittle-spraying questions is not best? Stakeholders are welcome to submit questions and he answers as many as he can. As much as I bash Huge, she did a great job answering submitted questions during her town hall. Can you imagine how difficult it would be to "unmute" Larry from Waynesboro out of 1,000 participants? Anyway, you'd just complain that he didn't get to Susan from Stafford.

And, he doesn't have all the financial and equity data. There's no way he can as things, like 3 women's teams, have moved around so much in JUST 3 WEEKS.

I'm sensing a personal vendetta here, but you're free to voice your totally unrealistic demands. Carry on.

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(This post was last modified: 10-29-2020 09:41 AM by Tribal.)
10-29-2020 09:39 AM
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Zorch Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(10-29-2020 09:33 AM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  Great job by Martin. He's providing a steady hand that will get us back on the right path. I really appreciate how he's not making rushed decisions about anything, but is re-evaluating the situation and showing his work.

Can't help but notice how the College rushed to settle the lawsuit and reinstate the three women's teams. They can move fast when they want to. (Which would also not have even been necessary if they hadn't rushed to cut seven teams under cover of pandemic).
10-29-2020 09:40 AM
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DSL Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Shared Path Forward...
I don't understand why they won't use the third prong of Title 9 compliance.
They keep avoiding even discussing that prong.

Did he say that Patriot schools have a larger overal budget than we have
even though they offer fewer sports?

I'm pretty sure that a few years ago I read admissions info from the college
describing how they were giving men applicants "diversity points" to increase
male admission but they were still having trouble moving the male percentage
higher. Maybe someone knows more about this policy.
10-29-2020 09:41 AM
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mrjoolius Offline
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Post: #49
Shared Path Forward...
I believe Patriot schools, on average, provide more sports than we do. I'll have to take his word on budgets since I don't know.
(This post was last modified: 10-29-2020 09:46 AM by mrjoolius.)
10-29-2020 09:45 AM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(10-29-2020 09:40 AM)Zorch Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 09:33 AM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  Great job by Martin. He's providing a steady hand that will get us back on the right path. I really appreciate how he's not making rushed decisions about anything, but is re-evaluating the situation and showing his work.

Can't help but notice how the College rushed to settle the lawsuit and reinstate the three women's teams. They can move fast when they want to. (Which would also not have even been necessary if they hadn't rushed to cut seven teams under cover of pandemic).
You're kidding. Good call rushing to comply with federal law but deliberately working in phases to set forth a sustainable way forward. Ha ha.

I tend to file taxes by the April deadline to comply with federal law before deciding where to vacation or whether or not I should purchase that new Audi.



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10-29-2020 09:50 AM
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Zorch Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(10-29-2020 09:39 AM)Tribal Wrote:  There's this COVID-19 thing going on so, maybe an in-person town hall meeting where he is forced to field a bunch of spittle-spraying questions is not best? Stakeholders are welcome to submit questions and he answers as many as he can. As much as I bash Huge, she did a great job answering submitted questions during her town hall. Can you imagine how difficult it would be to "unmute" Larry from Waynesboro out of 1,000 participants? Anyway, you'd just complain that he didn't get to Susan from Stafford.

And, he doesn't have all the financial and equity data. There's no way he can as things, like 3 women's teams, have moved around so much in JUST 3 WEEKS.

I'm sensing a personal vendetta here, but you're free to voice your totally unrealistic demands. Carry on.

First off, I presume that if it were an actual town hall that W&M would be smart enough to require masks. But Zoom could also work. Mute everybody except the one person whose turn it is to speak. Hold the meeting as long as necessary until everyone has had a chance to speak (like what happened at the BOV meeting). You said "1,000 participants". Yeah, the fact that any zoom call or Town Hall would even have 1000 participants shows you that there are still a lot of unanswered questions and a lot of stakeholders still have a lot to say.

People do submit questions and they don't get answered -- because they hand pick the questions. Even worse, they don't provide answers after the fact. I know this because I submitted two questions to the previous session that were not asked nor have they been answered via email in more than two weeks. They were very easy questions to answer because they were asking for data that the AD has.

Martin not having all the data because three women's teams have moved around is a ridiculous statement. Those three teams already existed. It is not like he added three new teams, which would then make your statement more accurate. No, the women's numbers have been known for years. During the call yesterday he promised some new numbers for gender equity last night or this morning. Haven't seen anything yet.

Thanks for allowing me to "carry on". I will do so.
10-29-2020 09:56 AM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #52
Shared Path Forward...
It's 1100...Martin had better act fast before Zorch blows a fuse. Care to speak to why you're taking this so personally, dad? Gotta take the personal agenda out of it if you want to think clearly.

Martin is clearly unfit because he didn't answer my question. How dare he answer other questions and not mine!?!? Yes, a thousand in the audience means only a few questions answered and 95 aren't. But wait, Martin worked a 14 hr day and only allocated an hour for the info session. He should've stayed up for days answering every question, especially mine! There's a conspiracy, I tell you.

Unreal



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(This post was last modified: 10-29-2020 10:05 AM by Tribal.)
10-29-2020 10:04 AM
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WMInTheBurg Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(10-29-2020 09:41 AM)DSL Wrote:  I don't understand why they won't use the third prong of Title 9 compliance.
They keep avoiding even discussing that prong.

Did he say that Patriot schools have a larger overall budget than we have
even though they offer fewer sports?

I'm pretty sure that a few years ago I read admissions info from the college
describing how they were giving men applicants "diversity points" to increase
male admission but they were still having trouble moving the male percentage
higher. Maybe someone knows more about this policy.

I don't think that anything Martin says in these should be parsed word for word. Most likely the statements on admissions are from a high-level view rather than specifics.

With regard to Patriot League schools, I wouldn't be surprised if they did. Aren't most of them private?
10-29-2020 10:08 AM
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Zorch Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(10-29-2020 10:04 AM)Tribal Wrote:  It's 1100...Martin had better act fast before Zorch blows a fuse. Care to speak to why you're taking this so personally, dad? Gotta take the personal agenda out of it if you want to think clearly.

Martin is clearly unfit because he didn't answer my question. How dare he answer other questions and not mine!?!? Yes, a thousand in the audience means only a few questions answered and 95 aren't. But wait, Martin worked a 14 hr day and only allocated an hour for the info session. He should've stayed up for days answering every question, especially mine! There's a conspiracy, I tell you.

Unreal

What is most amusing is that I railed against Huge for years -- just like you did -- and neither you nor anyone else ever said that I had a "personal vendetta" against her or was taking anything "so personally". But now, suddenly, and only because you hold a differing opinion, my thoughts about Martin are a "personal vendetta"?
10-29-2020 10:10 AM
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mrjoolius Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(10-29-2020 10:08 AM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  With regard to Patriot League schools, I wouldn't be surprised if they did. Aren't most of them private?

All of them, save the service academies. And we know their deal.
10-29-2020 10:20 AM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(10-29-2020 10:10 AM)Zorch Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 10:04 AM)Tribal Wrote:  It's 1100...Martin had better act fast before Zorch blows a fuse. Care to speak to why you're taking this so personally, dad? Gotta take the personal agenda out of it if you want to think clearly.

Martin is clearly unfit because he didn't answer my question. How dare he answer other questions and not mine!?!? Yes, a thousand in the audience means only a few questions answered and 95 aren't. But wait, Martin worked a 14 hr day and only allocated an hour for the info session. He should've stayed up for days answering every question, especially mine! There's a conspiracy, I tell you.

Unreal

What is most amusing is that I railed against Huge for years -- just like you did -- and neither you nor anyone else ever said that I had a "personal vendetta" against her or was taking anything "so personally". But now, suddenly, and only because you hold a differing opinion, my thoughts about Martin are a "personal vendetta"?
Not my position at all. It's great to hold opposing views. I think the cuts hit closer to home for you but you don't want to talk about that and that's okay.

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(This post was last modified: 10-29-2020 10:42 AM by Tribal.)
10-29-2020 10:29 AM
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Zorch Offline
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Post: #57
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(10-29-2020 09:50 AM)Tribal Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 09:40 AM)Zorch Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 09:33 AM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  Great job by Martin. He's providing a steady hand that will get us back on the right path. I really appreciate how he's not making rushed decisions about anything, but is re-evaluating the situation and showing his work.

Can't help but notice how the College rushed to settle the lawsuit and reinstate the three women's teams. They can move fast when they want to. (Which would also not have even been necessary if they hadn't rushed to cut seven teams under cover of pandemic).
You're kidding. Good call rushing to comply with federal law but deliberately working in phases to set forth a sustainable way forward. Ha ha.

I tend to file taxes by the April deadline to comply with federal law before deciding where to vacation or whether or not I should purchase that new Audi.

See bold immediately above. W&M did not rush to comply with federal law. They had been out of compliance with federal law for years and nobody cared and they had never done anything to stem the tide of ever-increasing female admission rates that were pushing them ever further from compliance. No, what they rushed to do was to stop and alleviate the ill effects from the lawsuit. It had nothing to do with wanting to comply with federal law; again, they had been willfully out of compliance for years. Are you aware that part of the settlement was $125K? After lawyer's fees, I wonder how much of that the women's teams are going to donate to W&M? That's another $125K that W&M added to its deficit.

To use your own tax analogy: to me, W&M's actions are more like the guy who pays no taxes for years and then, suddenly, when notified of an impending audit, he rushes to pay his back taxes.
(This post was last modified: 10-29-2020 11:30 AM by Zorch.)
10-29-2020 11:29 AM
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Tribe32 Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(10-29-2020 09:11 AM)Zorch Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 09:07 AM)Tribe32 Wrote:  Zorch, the part that you may be overlooking is how Rowe is going about this. She wants to make decisions in phases. We are in phase 2 and are trying to confirm the identity that we want to have and the direction that we want to go. I think both of those things are critical to identify what we are looking for in an AD and quite frankly who will be interested in the job.

The uses of the words "if", "suspensions", and "upheld" (as noted in my post above) indicate to me that they have NOT progressed out of phase 1 yet. Thousands of Tribe7 supporters are still working on that assumption. You notice Martin is not using the word "final" anymore ....

Phase I was Title IX compliance. Check the box.
10-29-2020 11:31 AM
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Zorch Offline
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Post: #59
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(10-29-2020 11:31 AM)Tribe32 Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 09:11 AM)Zorch Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 09:07 AM)Tribe32 Wrote:  Zorch, the part that you may be overlooking is how Rowe is going about this. She wants to make decisions in phases. We are in phase 2 and are trying to confirm the identity that we want to have and the direction that we want to go. I think both of those things are critical to identify what we are looking for in an AD and quite frankly who will be interested in the job.

The uses of the words "if", "suspensions", and "upheld" (as noted in my post above) indicate to me that they have NOT progressed out of phase 1 yet. Thousands of Tribe7 supporters are still working on that assumption. You notice Martin is not using the word "final" anymore ....

Phase I was Title IX compliance. Check the box.

Not checked! Martin himself admits that Title IX compliance also involves scholarship dollar equity and that, even after dropping sports, scholarships are nowhere near equal. So, not checked! Read the proposal several posts above. It talks about scholarship compliance.
10-29-2020 11:35 AM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #60
RE: Shared Path Forward...
(10-29-2020 11:29 AM)Zorch Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 09:50 AM)Tribal Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 09:40 AM)Zorch Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 09:33 AM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  Great job by Martin. He's providing a steady hand that will get us back on the right path. I really appreciate how he's not making rushed decisions about anything, but is re-evaluating the situation and showing his work.

Can't help but notice how the College rushed to settle the lawsuit and reinstate the three women's teams. They can move fast when they want to. (Which would also not have even been necessary if they hadn't rushed to cut seven teams under cover of pandemic).
You're kidding. Good call rushing to comply with federal law but deliberately working in phases to set forth a sustainable way forward. Ha ha.

I tend to file taxes by the April deadline to comply with federal law before deciding where to vacation or whether or not I should purchase that new Audi.

See bold immediately above. W&M did not rush to comply with federal law. They had been out of compliance with federal law for years and nobody cared and they had never done anything to stem the tide of ever-increasing female admission rates that were pushing them ever further from compliance. No, what they rushed to do was to stop and alleviate the ill effects from the lawsuit. It had nothing to do with wanting to comply with federal law; again, they had been willfully out of compliance for years. Are you aware that part of the settlement was $125K? After lawyer's fees, I wonder how much of that the women's teams are going to donate to W&M? That's another $125K that W&M added to its deficit.

To use your own tax analogy: to me, W&M's actions are more like the guy who pays no taxes for years and then, suddenly, when notified of an impending audit, he rushes to pay his back taxes.

Oh, I see, W&M's years of avoiding T9 paremeters (like most universities) is clearly Martin's fault. And, shame on him for taking a whole two days to act on it. Good grief.



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10-29-2020 11:48 AM
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