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Women's gymnastics, women's swimming, and volleyball reinstated
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soccerguy315 Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Women's gymnastics, women's swimming, and volleyball reinstated
1. more boys play sports than girls

2. more girls go to college than boys

thus, you end up with an issue (caused by a well-meaning law) at the collegiate level.
10-20-2020 09:59 AM
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Zorch Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Women's gymnastics, women's swimming, and volleyball reinstated
(10-20-2020 09:23 AM)Old tribe Wrote:  If the fundraising doesn't happen, the men's teams that were cut won't come back and some men's teams will lose roster spots. Don't think D3 will be on the table, will just have less men's teams/athletes.

The minimum number of teams for NCAA Division I is 14. The minimum number of men's teams is 6. If the proposed 4 dropped men's teams are not reinstated and with the 3 reinstated women's teams the current count is 7 men's teams and 12 women's teams. If the women undergraduate percentage keeps going up then the AD can only drop a maximum of 1 more men's teams. Then they will have to look at equalizing the enrollment/ participation percentages which is what they should have been doing at least 4-5 years ago. I repeat, though, that that is an Admissions issue to solve, not an Athletics issue to solve.
10-20-2020 10:02 AM
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Tribe32 Online
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Post: #63
RE: Women's gymnastics, women's swimming, and volleyball reinstated
(10-20-2020 08:29 AM)Zorch Wrote:  
(10-20-2020 08:19 AM)Tribe32 Wrote:  
(10-20-2020 08:07 AM)Zorch Wrote:  
(10-20-2020 06:18 AM)Tribe32 Wrote:  
(10-19-2020 05:49 PM)Zorch Wrote:  Unfortunately, the problem is not solved. There are still four Men's sports on the chopping block.
I was stating that the Title IX problem is solved. The problem now is with money and fundraising. This may be an impossible task without multiple 10 million dollar gifts.

I was stating that the Title IX problem is solved only if you agree that dropping four men's sports is the solution. If you think the sports are worthy of saving then that means other possible solutions need to be found.

The men's teams have been dropped. This isn't up for debate. If they are reinstated or other teams are added it will be done within Title IX (I hope)

We're debating it now. It seems to be semantics. You like the words dropped and reinstated. You may say, correctly, that the women's teams were reinstated. I may say, correctly, that when you look at the historical record and see that they played every year with no gaps (other than maybe covid) that therefore those teams were never actually dropped.

They were absolutely dropped effective the end of this academic year. Tell the student athletes who received a six minute Zoom meeting with a scripted response from Huge that they weren't really dropped. Tell that to the freshmen who just got on campus Tell that to the upper classmen who weren' on campus yet. Not only that, but in every memo it stated that the decision was final. I didn't make this stuff up.

So.........now people have changed their minds and are reinstating the teams for the 2021/22 school year. I don't know under what conditions. That's going to come out soon.
10-20-2020 10:03 AM
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Zorch Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Women's gymnastics, women's swimming, and volleyball reinstated
(10-20-2020 10:03 AM)Tribe32 Wrote:  
(10-20-2020 08:29 AM)Zorch Wrote:  
(10-20-2020 08:19 AM)Tribe32 Wrote:  
(10-20-2020 08:07 AM)Zorch Wrote:  
(10-20-2020 06:18 AM)Tribe32 Wrote:  I was stating that the Title IX problem is solved. The problem now is with money and fundraising. This may be an impossible task without multiple 10 million dollar gifts.

I was stating that the Title IX problem is solved only if you agree that dropping four men's sports is the solution. If you think the sports are worthy of saving then that means other possible solutions need to be found.

The men's teams have been dropped. This isn't up for debate. If they are reinstated or other teams are added it will be done within Title IX (I hope)

We're debating it now. It seems to be semantics. You like the words dropped and reinstated. You may say, correctly, that the women's teams were reinstated. I may say, correctly, that when you look at the historical record and see that they played every year with no gaps (other than maybe covid) that therefore those teams were never actually dropped.

They were absolutely dropped effective the end of this academic year. Tell the student athletes who received a six minute Zoom meeting with a scripted response from Huge that they weren't really dropped. Tell that to the freshmen who just got on campus Tell that to the upper classmen who weren' on campus yet. Not only that, but in every memo it stated that the decision was final. I didn't make this stuff up.

So.........now people have changed their minds and are reinstating the teams for the 2021/22 school year. I don't know under what conditions. That's going to come out soon.

Come on, Tribe32. The women, who were ultimately not dropped, experienced those same emotions as the men -- and yet clearly they are not dropped. If the men are reinstated then they are not dropped. To prove my point, the women's basketball team was not dropped in the '90s. They were attempted to be dropped but it never actually happened. The same is now true of the three women's sports. The point I am trying to make is that until the men no longer play anymore that they are not yet dropped. They could still be reinstated and never miss a year of competition. No longer playing anymore won't occur until 2021-2022 (other than covid which is not germane to the logic involved).
10-20-2020 10:10 AM
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TribePride91 Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Women's gymnastics, women's swimming, and volleyball reinstated
Using Tribal's JMU student ratio(I didn't use UVA since that is more football scholarships), they have 17 sports. 11 for the women and 6 for the men. The men have no track, no swimming(football, golf, tennis, baseball, basketball, and soccer are their 6). For the women, they have all the ones we have except gymnastics and they have softball. Apparently they are within Title IX parameters.

Not sure how the numbers work to make us able to save men's swimming, cross country and track(which I would think are the ones we need to try and save first). Adding softball probably gives enough representation to allow one of the 2 back, but would then require additional money to fund. Not sure if there is any overlap for track/cross country but I would expect there could be.

It still seems to me like the first call would be to the 2 large Kaplan renovation donors to see if they would allow a reallocation of part of the funds. Then, you try to fully the Tribe family with kindness and good leadership and get donations moving upward. Finally, you find a full cure for COVID so that incomes can return to normal and games can be fully played again with fans. It is a mess. The Tribe Club did a solid job of building a reserve fund but our previous AD did a good job of draining it.
(This post was last modified: 10-20-2020 11:08 AM by TribePride91.)
10-20-2020 11:07 AM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Women's gymnastics, women's swimming, and volleyball reinstated
It’s very simple.

Assuming the funding comes through (big assumption), two men’s sports being brought back satisfies Title IX through a combination of (1) added women’s sport, (2) increase the number of women’s roster spots, and (3) take some men’s roster spots from existing teams and apply them to the two men’s sports brought back.

This is all set up to be a beautiful thing ... if the donors come through. If not, it will continue to be a struggle.

Except this time, everybody knows the deal.
(This post was last modified: 10-20-2020 11:40 AM by nj alum.)
10-20-2020 11:39 AM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #67
Women's gymnastics, women's swimming, and volleyball reinstated
Everybody knowing the deal and having a fighting chance to save "their sport," is all I ask.

We also need to come to terms regarding gymnastics. I think that sport, at a university level, is doomed.

VB hasn't put up much of a fight and I don't think they'll raise the money. This, of course, means a viable men's team is done.

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10-20-2020 11:53 AM
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Blow Gym rat Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Women's gymnastics, women's swimming, and volleyball reinstated
(10-20-2020 11:39 AM)nj alum Wrote:  It’s very simple.

Assuming the funding comes through (big assumption), two men’s sports being brought back satisfies Title IX through a combination of (1) added women’s sport, (2) increase the number of women’s roster spots, and (3) take some men’s roster spots from existing teams and apply them to the two men’s sports brought back.

This is all set up to be a beautiful thing ... if the donors come through. If not, it will continue to be a struggle.

Except this time, everybody knows the deal.

The tricky part (apart from actually getting the donors to open their wallets) will be how the funding is proposed to be structured.

The Huge model (for want of a better term) was "The Tribe 7 sports must be fully funded by income from endowments, at budget levels that permit them to offer the max number of schollies allowed by the NCAA." (Hence the ridiculous "$150 million in endowments required" number for the Tribe 7.

What we need going forward, based on REALISTIC annual budgets, is something like the following:

"Most teams will need sufficient donor support that X% of their annual budget is covered by endowment income and another Y% is covered by sport-specific annual giving." (Or perhaps "A total of X+Y% is covered by any combination of endowment income and annual giving."). "Our experienced Development professionals will help the teams line up and maintain this funding by doing the following: _____________________________________________."

"The above doesn't include teams A, B and C, which are treated differently for the following very good and indisputably fair reason: __________________. They will be treated this way: __________________."
10-20-2020 12:04 PM
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TDenverFan Online
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Post: #69
RE: Women's gymnastics, women's swimming, and volleyball reinstated
(10-20-2020 09:23 AM)62Indian Wrote:  
(10-20-2020 08:45 AM)Tribal Wrote:  Obvious solution is to stop admitting women until we achieve a 70% men / 30% women ratio, at which time we can legally drop volleyball and lacrosse.


* I'm kidding (unless you agree)

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Actually I was going to propose this Tribal, but I was afraid my post would be removed. I believe the current ratio is 58% women and 42% men. Obviously, male applicants are not being treated fairly/equitably. It is obvious the College has a bias against men, which is unconstitutional. Anything other than a 50-50 ratio is unacceptable. I am NOT kidding!

Our acceptance rate for men is actually significantly higher than it is for women.

https://money.com/colleges-men-higher-acceptance-rate/

40% for men, 28% for women, when this article was published. I think you could argue the opposite, that the College has a bias against women.
10-20-2020 12:13 PM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #70
RE: Women's gymnastics, women's swimming, and volleyball reinstated
(10-20-2020 11:53 AM)Tribal Wrote:  Everybody knowing the deal and having a fighting chance to save "their sport," is all I ask.

We also need to come to terms regarding gymnastics. I think that sport, at a university level, is doomed.

VB hasn't put up much of a fight and I don't think they'll raise the money. This, of course, means a viable men's team is done.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

I would like to believe that if VB goes belly-up, all measures will be taken to protect a viable men’s team (apply the volleyball $$ and roster spots to other women’s teams). That is a benefit of the current “structural” changes. Everybody now knows the % of money and roster spots that can be allocated between the men and the women ... it’s out in the open.

One of the benefits of the current action in satisfying Title IX is that the “equity intangible” has now shifted to the men’s side for the first time ever at W&M .. that will be an interesting development to watch.
(This post was last modified: 10-20-2020 12:25 PM by nj alum.)
10-20-2020 12:22 PM
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WMTRIBE75 Offline
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Post: #71
RE: Women's gymnastics, women's swimming, and volleyball reinstated
(10-20-2020 11:53 AM)Tribal Wrote:  Everybody knowing the deal and having a fighting chance to save "their sport," is all I ask.

We also need to come to terms regarding gymnastics. I think that sport, at a university level, is doomed.

VB hasn't put up much of a fight and I don't think they'll raise the money. This, of course, means a viable men's team is done.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

Tribal,

I don't think that at this point it matters that gymnastics is doomed and that volleyball has not raised a dime. For that matter, I do not believe that all of the money that women's swimming has raised to "save their sport" is even needed by them in order to force the issue. The grim reality is that W&M cannot cut ANY women's sports in order to be Title IX compliant, and cannot force any of these three teams to raise a dime to ensure their continued existence.

In reality, I do not believe that Title IX compliance ever popped into Huge's head when she was attempting to deal with a 3 million dollar budget deficit. If she had been smart, she would have started off by announcing that we were going to be cutting men's gymnastics, swimming, and indoor/outdoor track in order to be Title IV compliant, one of the three issues which Martin says that we need to address. Under that situation, the only real gripe that these four men's teams would have then had would be, "Why did you not pare down the rosters of other men's sports in order to save ours?" Huge could have then transparently shared with all of us what the budget deficit would look like going forward without these four sports and sought insight on how to balance the budget WITHOUT having to cut additional programs from both the men's and women's side of the ledger while remaining NCAA Division 1 compliant.
10-20-2020 12:26 PM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #72
RE: Women's gymnastics, women's swimming, and volleyball reinstated
75-

That’s pretty clear thinking, and succinctly spells out our situation.

If the school is not going to challenge Title IX, then compliance with same is the place to start ... everything else falls into place (the potential solutions fall into place; executing those solutions is another matter).

That’s where we are.
10-20-2020 12:51 PM
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Old tribe Offline
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Post: #73
RE: Women's gymnastics, women's swimming, and volleyball reinstated
(10-20-2020 12:51 PM)nj alum Wrote:  75-

That’s pretty clear thinking, and succinctly spells out our situation.

If the school is not going to challenge Title IX, then compliance with same is the place to start ... everything else falls into place (the potential solutions fall into place; executing those solutions is another matter).

That’s where we are.

W&M was not in compliance with Title IX for a long time (if you're just using the 2% safe harbor for the equal opportunities analyis), well before Huge came along. They probably didn't think they'd be threatened with a lawsuit considering they'd gone so long without being sued and that the 7 cuts resulted in moving closer to Title IX compliance than we previously were. I do believe it was a consideration in making the cuts. I agree that 75's plan would have been a good one. But I think the amount of the deficit brought cutting of the women's team into play as well.
10-20-2020 02:23 PM
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WMInTheBurg Offline
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Post: #74
RE: Women's gymnastics, women's swimming, and volleyball reinstated
(10-20-2020 02:23 PM)Old tribe Wrote:  
(10-20-2020 12:51 PM)nj alum Wrote:  75-

That’s pretty clear thinking, and succinctly spells out our situation.

If the school is not going to challenge Title IX, then compliance with same is the place to start ... everything else falls into place (the potential solutions fall into place; executing those solutions is another matter).

That’s where we are.

W&M was not in compliance with Title IX for a long time (if you're just using the 2% safe harbor for the equal opportunities analyis), well before Huge came along. They probably didn't think they'd be threatened with a lawsuit considering they'd gone so long without being sued and that the 7 cuts resulted in moving closer to Title IX compliance than we previously were. I do believe it was a consideration in making the cuts. I agree that 75's plan would have been a good one. But I think the amount of the deficit brought cutting of the women's team into play as well.

I'd bet that Huge thought there was low risk of a lawsuit. Had it been handled differently, she might have been right. Of course, at this point it's apparent that it would have had to have been a different AD in order to be handled in such a way.
10-20-2020 02:52 PM
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Tribe1693 Offline
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Post: #75
RE: Women's gymnastics, women's swimming, and volleyball reinstated
Starting at roughly the 2:00 minute mark an "explanation" as to what happened and lessons learned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0hjMGbD...re=em-lbrm
10-20-2020 03:48 PM
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Tribal Offline
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Women's gymnastics, women's swimming, and volleyball reinstated
Understatement of the year "we moved too fast." I appreciate President Rowe communicating that, and, I believe, W&M will work in phases, listen to our community, and follow our Code of Ethics from here on out.

Many, especially some from the Cut 7 alliance, wrongfully blame Rowe for our AD's decisions. We can't expect a school president to micromanage department heads and she ought to trust their judgment.

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(This post was last modified: 10-20-2020 04:08 PM by Tribal.)
10-20-2020 04:06 PM
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Tribe32 Online
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Post: #77
RE: Women's gymnastics, women's swimming, and volleyball reinstated
She used a lot of we and us. Very refreshing.
10-20-2020 04:27 PM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #78
Women's gymnastics, women's swimming, and volleyball reinstated
William & Mary violated Title IX legislation 'for decades', lawyers say


https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/nca...awyers-say

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10-22-2020 08:09 PM
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billymac Offline
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Post: #79
RE: Women's gymnastics, women's swimming, and volleyball reinstated
(10-22-2020 08:09 PM)Tribal Wrote:  William & Mary violated Title IX legislation 'for decades', lawyers say


https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/nca...awyers-say

Actually, most D-1 schools have violated Title IX legislation for decades. If someone wanted to make trouble for a school, especially a non-P5, they only need look into their Title IX compliance.
10-22-2020 09:14 PM
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Post: #80
RE: Women's gymnastics, women's swimming, and volleyball reinstated
(10-20-2020 04:06 PM)Tribal Wrote:  Understatement of the year "we moved too fast." I appreciate President Rowe communicating that, and, I believe, W&M will work in phases, listen to our community, and follow our Code of Ethics from here on out.

Many, especially some from the Cut 7 alliance, wrongfully blame Rowe for our AD's decisions. We can't expect a school president to micromanage department heads and she ought to trust their judgment.

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I think that's especially true right now. With all of the Covid related challenges on campus, Rowe's hands are very full, and so far that seems like it's being managed pretty well, all things considered.
10-22-2020 10:05 PM
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