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Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
Plenty of once mighty (as well as less mighty) athletic programs from small, elite, private schools have de-emphasized athletics:

The Ivy League
U of Chicago
Washington U (St L)
Fordham
William & Mary
Richmond
Holy Cross

The 1978 split and subsequent ratcheting up of DI-A requirements sent some of these schools down but decisions about academics either directly or indirectly changed the philosophies of those athletic departments.

It makes me wonder if in this day and age we will see anyone else make similar decisions to de-emphasize sports because the missions of their athletic conferences aren’t in sync with the university.

Vanderbilt immediately comes to mind but Northwestern, Rice, Tulsa, Tulane, SMU, BC, WF, and even Stanford could fall in this category. (I could see programs like Syracuse and Duke abandoning football but retaining big time basketball in the Big East).

Do schools like these really need the athletic income (or losses)?
What publicity or name recognition is a big time athletic program getting them that they don’t already get on academic reputation alone?
10-12-2020 06:38 PM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
Someone at Notre Dame once told me that Notre Dame's academics would be like Marquette's if Notre Dame never had D-1 football. And he wasn't saying that as an insult to Marquette.

Elite sports attracts high end academic talent. Mediocre sports, on the other hand, do nothing. I think it's a waste of money for Rice to have a D-1 athletic department.
10-12-2020 06:50 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
(10-12-2020 06:50 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Someone at Notre Dame once told me that Notre Dame's academics would be like Marquette's if Notre Dame never had D-1 football. And he wasn't saying that as an insult to Marquette.

Elite sports attracts high end academic talent. Mediocre sports, on the other hand, do nothing. I think it's a waste of money for Rice to have a D-1 athletic department.

But you also have Johns Hopkins out there—a fellow Catholic schools that gets by just fine without elite athletics.

Football made Notre Dame a household name but their academic reputation is why I applied to grad school there.
10-12-2020 06:53 PM
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Wahoowa84 Offline
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RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
(10-12-2020 06:53 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(10-12-2020 06:50 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Someone at Notre Dame once told me that Notre Dame's academics would be like Marquette's if Notre Dame never had D-1 football. And he wasn't saying that as an insult to Marquette.

Elite sports attracts high end academic talent. Mediocre sports, on the other hand, do nothing. I think it's a waste of money for Rice to have a D-1 athletic department.

But you also have Johns Hopkins out there—a fellow Catholic schools that gets by just fine without elite athletics.

Football made Notre Dame a household name but their academic reputation is why I applied to grad school there.

Hopkins is not a Catholic school. Possibly Georgetown is your example...comparable academics to Notre Dame, without an FBS team.
10-12-2020 07:00 PM
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bullet Offline
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RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
(10-12-2020 06:38 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Plenty of once mighty (as well as less mighty) athletic programs from small, elite, private schools have de-emphasized athletics:

The Ivy League
U of Chicago
Washington U (St L)
Fordham
William & Mary
Richmond
Holy Cross

The 1978 split and subsequent ratcheting up of DI-A requirements sent some of these schools down but decisions about academics either directly or indirectly changed the philosophies of those athletic departments.



It makes me wonder if in this day and age we will see anyone else make similar decisions to de-emphasize sports because the missions of their athletic conferences aren’t in sync with the university.

Vanderbilt immediately comes to mind but Northwestern, Rice, Tulsa, Tulane, SMU, BC, WF, and even Stanford could fall in this category. (I could see programs like Syracuse and Duke abandoning football but retaining big time basketball in the Big East).

Do schools like these really need the athletic income (or losses)?
What publicity or name recognition is a big time athletic program getting them that they don’t already get on academic reputation alone?

William & Mary and Richmond have not de-emphasized, although the others have.
(This post was last modified: 10-12-2020 07:03 PM by bullet.)
10-12-2020 07:02 PM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
(10-12-2020 06:38 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Plenty of once mighty (as well as less mighty) athletic programs from small, elite, private schools have de-emphasized athletics:

The Ivy League
U of Chicago
Washington U (St L)
Fordham
William & Mary
Richmond
Holy Cross


The 1978 split and subsequent ratcheting up of DI-A requirements sent some of these schools down but decisions about academics either directly or indirectly changed the philosophies of those athletic departments.

It makes me wonder if in this day and age we will see anyone else make similar decisions to de-emphasize sports because the missions of their athletic conferences aren’t in sync with the university.

Vanderbilt immediately comes to mind but Northwestern, Rice, Tulsa, Tulane, SMU, BC, WF, and even Stanford could fall in this category. (I could see programs like Syracuse and Duke abandoning football but retaining big time basketball in the Big East).

Do schools like these really need the athletic income (or losses)?
What publicity or name recognition is a big time athletic program getting them that they don’t already get on academic reputation alone?

Those aren't the only ones. There were about 20-30 small schools in Ohio and Indiana playing big-time football before WW2.

Western Reserve University (in Cleveland) has an all time winning record against Ohio State (6-5-1). WRU won the 1941 Sun Bowl.

The annual Case Tech versus Western Reserve football game used to attract 30,000+ fans until the two schools merged in the 60s.

Butler University's stadium used to hold 36,000 people.

Wabash was the only school to win at Notre Dame from 1899-1928. The Little Giants' snobbish taunting of the working class "boiler makers" from Purdue resulted in Purdue adopting the insult as their nickname.
10-12-2020 07:10 PM
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JRsec Offline
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RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
Well as of today the SEC is postponing and rescheduling their first game. Vanderbilt vs Missouri is off for this week. The reason is that the SEC school with the finest medical school can't run an effective quarantine on their football team probably because they really don't have an A.D. and instead have a bureaucratic system answerable only to the President and Trustees.

If the two Mississippi schools can one you would think that Vanderbilt could, but noooooooo! This is jus another in a long list of Vanderbilt compliance issues. Sports accommodation venue standards? Nope Requisite number of required sports? Nope Remaining deliberately competitive in money sports? Nope Health Safety Protocols maintained? Nope

So if they wanted to de-emphasize sports it would likely be as welcomed as Suwanee's departure. Only I don't think they would need to fully depart, but they would need to upgrade the basketball venue, add women's softball, and become a partial football member.. Nobody in the SEC hates Vanderbilt, but they are severely lagging in compliance with conference standards in athletics.
10-12-2020 07:13 PM
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XLance Offline
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RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
(10-12-2020 07:13 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Well as of today the SEC is postponing and rescheduling their first game. Vanderbilt vs Missouri is off for this week. The reason is that the SEC school with the finest medical school can't run an effective quarantine on their football team probably because they really don't have an A.D. and instead have a bureaucratic system answerable only to the President and Trustees.

If the two Mississippi schools can one you would think that Vanderbilt could, but noooooooo! This is jus another in a long list of Vanderbilt compliance issues. Sports accommodation venue standards? Nope Requisite number of required sports? Nope Remaining deliberately competitive in money sports? Nope Health Safety Protocols maintained? Nope

So if they wanted to de-emphasize sports it would likely be as welcomed as Suwanee's departure. Only I don't think they would need to fully depart, but they would need to upgrade the basketball venue, add women's softball, and become a partial football member.. Nobody in the SEC hates Vanderbilt, but they are severely lagging in compliance with conference standards in athletics.

The folks that ran MR SEC didn't think Vanderbilt belonged in the SEC either.
10-12-2020 07:24 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
(10-12-2020 07:02 PM)bullet Wrote:  
(10-12-2020 06:38 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  Plenty of once mighty (as well as less mighty) athletic programs from small, elite, private schools have de-emphasized athletics:

The Ivy League
U of Chicago
Washington U (St L)
Fordham
William & Mary
Richmond
Holy Cross

The 1978 split and subsequent ratcheting up of DI-A requirements sent some of these schools down but decisions about academics either directly or indirectly changed the philosophies of those athletic departments.



It makes me wonder if in this day and age we will see anyone else make similar decisions to de-emphasize sports because the missions of their athletic conferences aren’t in sync with the university.

Vanderbilt immediately comes to mind but Northwestern, Rice, Tulsa, Tulane, SMU, BC, WF, and even Stanford could fall in this category. (I could see programs like Syracuse and Duke abandoning football but retaining big time basketball in the Big East).

Do schools like these really need the athletic income (or losses)?
What publicity or name recognition is a big time athletic program getting them that they don’t already get on academic reputation alone?

William & Mary and Richmond have not de-emphasized, although the others have.

They were forcibly demoted to FCS and never returned so to that effect they de-emphasized.
10-12-2020 08:50 PM
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Fighting Muskie Offline
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RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
(10-12-2020 07:13 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Well as of today the SEC is postponing and rescheduling their first game. Vanderbilt vs Missouri is off for this week. The reason is that the SEC school with the finest medical school can't run an effective quarantine on their football team probably because they really don't have an A.D. and instead have a bureaucratic system answerable only to the President and Trustees.

If the two Mississippi schools can one you would think that Vanderbilt could, but noooooooo! This is jus another in a long list of Vanderbilt compliance issues. Sports accommodation venue standards? Nope Requisite number of required sports? Nope Remaining deliberately competitive in money sports? Nope Health Safety Protocols maintained? Nope

So if they wanted to de-emphasize sports it would likely be as welcomed as Suwanee's departure. Only I don't think they would need to fully depart, but they would need to upgrade the basketball venue, add women's softball, and become a partial football member.. Nobody in the SEC hates Vanderbilt, but they are severely lagging in compliance with conference standards in athletics.

As an institution, I don’t think they have any desire to play this year so I think they’ll do everything they can to avoid playing.

If Vanderbilt won’t voluntarily take themselves out of big time athletics would the rest of the membership dare to take them out against their will?
10-12-2020 08:54 PM
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Love and Honor Offline
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RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
(10-12-2020 08:50 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  They were forcibly demoted to FCS and never returned so to that effect they de-emphasized.

To some extent, but there's a big difference between them and a former DI that dropped from a power conference to DIII by their own decision like Chicago.

Imo it'd take a fundamental changing of college athletics (or an administrator having comically dictatorial power of their athletic department and deciding unilaterally to move down) for a program to completely step away from major conference athletics. The fame and money (real or potential) along with organizational inertia will even keep tiny schools like Rice around indefinitely. Just think about the outcry that we saw after UAB, a small public school in a G5 conference that wasn't a major player in the college sports universe, dropped one DI sport (albeit football in the deep south). Imagine the reaction if Vanderbilt, an SEC school in a major city with a number of notable alums, seriously considered leaving all of that. It'll take a much different world for it to happen, not impossible but still unprecedented.
(This post was last modified: 10-12-2020 09:37 PM by Love and Honor.)
10-12-2020 09:11 PM
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RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
(10-12-2020 08:54 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(10-12-2020 07:13 PM)JRsec Wrote:  Well as of today the SEC is postponing and rescheduling their first game. Vanderbilt vs Missouri is off for this week. The reason is that the SEC school with the finest medical school can't run an effective quarantine on their football team probably because they really don't have an A.D. and instead have a bureaucratic system answerable only to the President and Trustees.

If the two Mississippi schools can one you would think that Vanderbilt could, but noooooooo! This is jus another in a long list of Vanderbilt compliance issues. Sports accommodation venue standards? Nope Requisite number of required sports? Nope Remaining deliberately competitive in money sports? Nope Health Safety Protocols maintained? Nope

So if they wanted to de-emphasize sports it would likely be as welcomed as Suwanee's departure. Only I don't think they would need to fully depart, but they would need to upgrade the basketball venue, add women's softball, and become a partial football member.. Nobody in the SEC hates Vanderbilt, but they are severely lagging in compliance with conference standards in athletics.

As an institution, I don’t think they have any desire to play this year so I think they’ll do everything they can to avoid playing.

If Vanderbilt won’t voluntarily take themselves out of big time athletics would the rest of the membership dare to take them out against their will?

The SEC has never asked anyone to leave. Suwanee, Tulane, and Georgia Tech all chose to leave. Suwanee simply couldn't continue to commit to sports, Tulane thought they could make more as an independent, and Georgia Tech really left because of hard feelings between Bobby Dodd and Bear Bryant.

As I keep saying, I could see Vanderbilt essentially taking a step down in football and becoming a partial member of the SEC. That's quite different than simply leaving.

What might best help Vanderbilt football?
A: Playi 9 SEC games as we are likely to do in the future where they might be able to win 1 or 2 on a consistent basis meaning on years when they win 2 they still couldn't get the 6 wins they need for a bowl.

B. Play 5 SEC games with a couple at home giving them a great gate and having 7 more games to play schools like Wake, Rice, Tulsa, Duke, Tulane, Northwestern, etc. and with a good year they may actually have a decent shot at a bowl?

I believe a strong argument moving forward could be made for B.

Now as to Love and Honor's post that catalyst for many including numerous smaller privates will be any court order pushing pay for play and it will impact some state schools as well, just not the larger ones.
(This post was last modified: 10-12-2020 09:26 PM by JRsec.)
10-12-2020 09:19 PM
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BearcatJerry Offline
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RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
(10-12-2020 08:54 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  If Vanderbilt won’t voluntarily take themselves out of big time athletics would the rest of the membership dare to take them out against their will?

You are such a yankee.

Seriously. A yankee asks the question "Would the conference kick out a member in good standing?" Maybe the Big 10 would do that to Northwestern, but the SEC won't do it to Vanderbilt or any other member.

If Tulane hadn't left of their own accord, they would be in the SEC today. That's not saying the SEC would re-add them today, but the SEC would not have "kicked them out."

The only way Vanderbilt is not a member of the SEC is if they choose not to be. Or if they rest of the Conference fell apart around them.
10-12-2020 09:25 PM
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RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
To answer the OP question: NO. NFW.

Much of the value proposition of schools like Vandy and Northwestern is that you can have elite academics AND big-time sports (even if they aren’t necessarily good at them). Believe me - it’s a huge factor when Northwestern is competing for top academic kids across town with the University of Chicago.

Any university president of a school that is legitimately competing with the Ivy League for students would be absolutely INSANE to step back from Power Five membership. They’re competing in a space where they’re going after elite students that are willing to pay $80,000 per year out-of-pocket and it’s quite a valuable demographic to have top tier academics yet still have ESPN and other national networks coming to campus every week. That’s what they’re able to sell in order to compensate for not having the Ivy League membership. Heck, that’s how Michigan gets so many smart kids to pay nearly that much for out-of-state tuition, too.

If players eventually need to be paid, then they’ll be paid by all of these private institutions. No one is willingly giving up Power Five membership and, frankly, the budget constraints from this pandemic are only going to make that membership (with its focus on TV rights without having to depend on attendance) much more valuable.
10-12-2020 09:34 PM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
Also, from the first day that I wrote about conference realignment over a decade ago, I emphasized how much conferences want elite academic institutions. The Big Ten LOVES Northwestern. It’s an elite school located directly in the most important TV market in the league (Chicago). Vandy provides a similar value proposition for the SEC with an elite school located in a major market near the center of the conference (Nashville).

The biggest mistake that I’ve seen over the years from many conference realignment observers is that they vastly overrate enrollment numbers, which means that (1) they underrate private schools (especially ones with top academics) and (2) they overrate non-flagship/flagship equivalent public schools. Power Five conferences couldn’t add another Alabama or Ohio State if they tried, which means school #12/13/14 is about making the league overall diversified from an academic and market perspective. A Northwestern/Vandy-type school is worth its weight in gold to a conference. A Duke-type school that actually has an elite revenue sport is worth several times its weight in gold.
10-12-2020 09:43 PM
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JRsec Offline
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RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
(10-12-2020 09:34 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  To answer the OP question: NO. NFW.

Much of the value proposition of schools like Vandy and Northwestern is that you can have elite academics AND big-time sports (even if they aren’t necessarily good at them). Believe me - it’s a huge factor when Northwestern is competing for top academic kids across town with the University of Chicago.

Any university president of a school that is legitimately competing with the Ivy League for students would be absolutely INSANE to step back from Power Five membership. They’re competing in a space where they’re going after elite students that are willing to pay $80,000 per year out-of-pocket and it’s quite a valuable demographic to have top tier academics yet still have ESPN and other national networks coming to campus every week. That’s what they’re able to sell in order to compensate for not having the Ivy League membership. Heck, that’s how Michigan gets so many smart kids to pay nearly that much for out-of-state tuition, too.

If players eventually need to be paid, then they’ll be paid by all of these private institutions. No one is willingly giving up Power Five membership and, frankly, the budget constraints from this pandemic are only going to make that membership (with its focus on TV rights without having to depend on attendance) much more valuable.

The proof is gong to be in pudding Frank. Academics and Athletics are going to become two separate endeavors when pay for play hits. It's one thing if Vanderbilt or Northwestern want to stay, it's another as to whether they pay their way into whatever new associations are formed. Dead weight won't have to be kept in order just to keep an academic alliance. And the Big 10 (the only Ivy like Academic/Athletic conference among the P5) is going to have the most trouble in the new world. You have a TV contract world in which content will be everything that drives new contract values. They aren't pining for Vandy vs Georgia and NW vs Wisconsin.

When this happens we are going to have another realignment that is going to make that which has occurred heretofore look tame. So Vandy and NW may want to stay part of the club but there is no guarantee the old clubs will still be viable.

It's going to be more revolutionary than OU/UGa vs the NCAA.
10-12-2020 09:44 PM
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RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
William and Mary is actually a public school, even though the name sounds like a private one.
10-12-2020 09:46 PM
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RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
(10-12-2020 06:50 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Someone at Notre Dame once told me that Notre Dame's academics would be like Marquette's if Notre Dame never had D-1 football. And he wasn't saying that as an insult to Marquette.

Elite sports attracts high end academic talent. Mediocre sports, on the other hand, do nothing. I think it's a waste of money for Rice to have a D-1 athletic department.

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10-12-2020 09:57 PM
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Frank the Tank Offline
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RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
(10-12-2020 09:44 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(10-12-2020 09:34 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  To answer the OP question: NO. NFW.

Much of the value proposition of schools like Vandy and Northwestern is that you can have elite academics AND big-time sports (even if they aren’t necessarily good at them). Believe me - it’s a huge factor when Northwestern is competing for top academic kids across town with the University of Chicago.

Any university president of a school that is legitimately competing with the Ivy League for students would be absolutely INSANE to step back from Power Five membership. They’re competing in a space where they’re going after elite students that are willing to pay $80,000 per year out-of-pocket and it’s quite a valuable demographic to have top tier academics yet still have ESPN and other national networks coming to campus every week. That’s what they’re able to sell in order to compensate for not having the Ivy League membership. Heck, that’s how Michigan gets so many smart kids to pay nearly that much for out-of-state tuition, too.

If players eventually need to be paid, then they’ll be paid by all of these private institutions. No one is willingly giving up Power Five membership and, frankly, the budget constraints from this pandemic are only going to make that membership (with its focus on TV rights without having to depend on attendance) much more valuable.

The proof is gong to be in pudding Frank. Academics and Athletics are going to become two separate endeavors when pay for play hits. It's one thing if Vanderbilt or Northwestern want to stay, it's another as to whether they pay their way into whatever new associations are formed. Dead weight won't have to be kept in order just to keep an academic alliance. And the Big 10 (the only Ivy like Academic/Athletic conference among the P5) is going to have the most trouble in the new world. You have a TV contract world in which content will be everything that drives new contract values. They aren't pining for Vandy vs Georgia and NW vs Wisconsin.

When this happens we are going to have another realignment that is going to make that which has occurred heretofore look tame. So Vandy and NW may want to stay part of the club but there is no guarantee the old clubs will still be viable.

It's going to be more revolutionary than OU/UGa vs the NCAA.

We’ll just need to agree to disagree on this point. Schools are going to be dragged into the pay for play world kicking and screaming, but at the end of the day, they’ll pay up no matter what their academic standing might be.

This is a football-focused board, but endorsement income is more likely to have a bigger impact in basketball (as they don’t even try to hide that recruiting *today* is tied to the shoe companies). Duke is the highest ranked Power Five school in the US News rankings after Stanford... yet they’re getting top one-and-done basketball stars better than Kentucky and Kansas. Do we really think that Duke is giving that up? Do we really think that Duke boosters haven’t engaged in recruiting tactics that would make the fiercest Alabama football boosters blush?

Once again - this is about going after elite students and families that are willing to pay $80,000 per year out-of-pocket for college to go to the Ivy League. Power Five membership is a HUGE selling point for the handful of the elite schools that have it. I’ve seen it firsthand with with Northwestern competing with the University of Chicago. It’s what Vandy, Duke and Wake Forest use in competing against Emory. It’s what Stanford uses against Harvard, Yale and Princeton. How they perform against Alabama and Ohio State is almost irrelevant - they’re playing an entirely different game in terms of wanting to get the best talent in their student bodies overall and big-time sports are a huge differentiator there.
10-12-2020 10:06 PM
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RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
(10-12-2020 10:06 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  
(10-12-2020 09:44 PM)JRsec Wrote:  
(10-12-2020 09:34 PM)Frank the Tank Wrote:  To answer the OP question: NO. NFW.

Much of the value proposition of schools like Vandy and Northwestern is that you can have elite academics AND big-time sports (even if they aren’t necessarily good at them). Believe me - it’s a huge factor when Northwestern is competing for top academic kids across town with the University of Chicago.

Any university president of a school that is legitimately competing with the Ivy League for students would be absolutely INSANE to step back from Power Five membership. They’re competing in a space where they’re going after elite students that are willing to pay $80,000 per year out-of-pocket and it’s quite a valuable demographic to have top tier academics yet still have ESPN and other national networks coming to campus every week. That’s what they’re able to sell in order to compensate for not having the Ivy League membership. Heck, that’s how Michigan gets so many smart kids to pay nearly that much for out-of-state tuition, too.

If players eventually need to be paid, then they’ll be paid by all of these private institutions. No one is willingly giving up Power Five membership and, frankly, the budget constraints from this pandemic are only going to make that membership (with its focus on TV rights without having to depend on attendance) much more valuable.

The proof is gong to be in pudding Frank. Academics and Athletics are going to become two separate endeavors when pay for play hits. It's one thing if Vanderbilt or Northwestern want to stay, it's another as to whether they pay their way into whatever new associations are formed. Dead weight won't have to be kept in order just to keep an academic alliance. And the Big 10 (the only Ivy like Academic/Athletic conference among the P5) is going to have the most trouble in the new world. You have a TV contract world in which content will be everything that drives new contract values. They aren't pining for Vandy vs Georgia and NW vs Wisconsin.

When this happens we are going to have another realignment that is going to make that which has occurred heretofore look tame. So Vandy and NW may want to stay part of the club but there is no guarantee the old clubs will still be viable.

It's going to be more revolutionary than OU/UGa vs the NCAA.

We’ll just need to agree to disagree on this point. Schools are going to be dragged into the pay for play world kicking and screaming, but at the end of the day, they’ll pay up no matter what their academic standing might be.

This is a football-focused board, but endorsement income is more likely to have a bigger impact in basketball (as they don’t even try to hide that recruiting *today* is tied to the shoe companies). Duke is the highest ranked Power Five school in the US News rankings after Stanford... yet they’re getting top one-and-done basketball stars better than Kentucky and Kansas. Do we really think that Duke is giving that up? Do we really think that Duke boosters haven’t engaged in recruiting tactics that would make the fiercest Alabama football boosters blush?

Once again - this is about going after elite students and families that are willing to pay $80,000 per year out-of-pocket for college to go to the Ivy League. Power Five membership is a HUGE selling point for the handful of the elite schools that have it. I’ve seen it firsthand with with Northwestern competing with the University of Chicago. It’s what Vandy, Duke and Wake Forest use in competing against Emory. It’s what Stanford uses against Harvard, Yale and Princeton. How they perform against Alabama and Ohio State is almost irrelevant - they’re playing an entirely different game in terms of wanting to get the best talent in their student bodies overall and big-time sports are a huge differentiator there.

We don't have to agree to disagree Frank. I agree under the current model every effort will be made by these schools to remain. I'm suggesting that a different organizational paradigm will arise out of this and the old P5 as we knew it will be dramatically changed and with it we will see of necessity a separation of academic conferences (consortia) into a dichotomy of academic only consortia not bound by athletic competition and Athletic consortia not bound to academic associations but organized around competitive and financial principles which will radically change the world of conferences we see now, at least at the upper level. I think this will alter basketball conferences as well.

Why?

There is too much money to be made by a change in associations to match commitment to sport and the networks will more than willingly fund it. And I also believe that venerated associations in academia will survive and thrive by separating from the sports component of campus life. It will be a big adjustment for the Big 10 but a Big 10 academic consortium might well include a Texas, Texas A&M, Florida, North Carolina, Duke, Virginia, or Vanderbilt without having any impact on athletic association.

In other words I think the trend initiated by pay for play and by networks seeking the highest possible ratings will lead to a revolution that should have occurred 80 years ago. Universities should be freed to pursue their best possible exposure and financial reward in sports and also to pursue their best possible academic alliances for the sake of research and scientific discovery. It's really rather asinine and counter productive to continue simply because this is the way we've always done it since the early 1800's.

So I don't disagree with your assertion of what Duke, Northwestern, and Vandy will want to do, I just foresee a total reorganization of schools competing athletically with athletic peers, and researching academically with academic peers where such relationships no longer remain mutually inclusive to the detriment of both.
10-12-2020 10:30 PM
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