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Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
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esayem Offline
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Post: #61
RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
I’m pretty sure there are already partnerships between universities outside of their athletic conference.
10-14-2020 06:29 AM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #62
RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
On this theme, Roosevelt University, DePaul University and Columbia College share the University Center, a residential building located in downtown Chicago. I attended Roosevelt and, partly because of this affiliation, root for DePaul men's basketball.

What JRsec is predicting is bold — yet likely to be proved accurate in time.
10-14-2020 08:34 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #63
RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
(10-13-2020 11:00 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(10-13-2020 05:41 PM)XLance Wrote:  
(10-13-2020 05:30 PM)bullet Wrote:  I think pay for play will be a deal breaker for some college presidents. Maybe many.

Notre Dame has said it would be. If they could get enough other schools to join them, the president might be able to keep his job!

Wake Forest has already said they wouldn't pay. Wake Forest President is the former Provost at Notre Dame.

Wisconsin's AD and President are both on record as saying they would probably drop the athletic program if pay-for-play becomes reality.

Nobody knows for sure, but I am not persuaded by these kinds of statements. IMO they reflect either (a) a cynical effort to sway the courts and/or public opinion away from full pay for play, or (b) an honestly held sentiment that is easy to express right now but which simply will not hold should pay for play come to pass and schools have to make actual decisions about how to proceed. In that event, I think alumni and general university community desires to have "big time" football will overwhelm this principle. I think this is especially true at public universities, that by their nature formally answer to a broader constituency. So while I think both Wisconsin and Notre Dame will "cave" and adopt pay for play rather than abandon their programs, I am a bit more confident in the case of Wisconsin.

But maybe we shall see.

07-coffee3
(This post was last modified: 10-14-2020 08:58 AM by quo vadis.)
10-14-2020 08:56 AM
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DFW HOYA Offline
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Post: #64
RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
(10-13-2020 06:38 AM)esayem Wrote:  Former University Division (FBS) programs Detroit Mercy, Marquette, Villanova, and Xavier all dropped football for monetary reasons, not academics. Villanova is of course back, and won a FCS title. I’m not sure about longtime University Division Independent, Dayton. They dropped to DIII in the late 70’s.

Dayton plays in I-AA/FCS and has since 1993.

Let me ask the contra question: under what means would a school "reemphasize" football when there are no conferences open to accept them? For sake of argument, Marquette goes all-in on I-A football. They have no place to play. The Big 10 certainly won't take them. C-USA is full. The Sun Belt isn't exactly Milwaukee. The barriers to entry are significant.
10-14-2020 08:57 AM
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DawgNBama Offline
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Post: #65
RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
(10-14-2020 06:29 AM)esayem Wrote:  I’m pretty sure there are already partnerships between universities outside of their athletic conference.



Yes, there are partnerships between universities out of their athletic conference, to a point. Could the University of Alabama join the CIC?? No, they couldn't unless they were a Big Ten member. Would Alabama like CIC access? Yes, they would. The CIC could get access to UVa's and UNC's databases,libraries, and projects if they would drop the dumb athletic requirement to join the Big Ten.
10-14-2020 08:58 AM
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Wahoowa84 Offline
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Post: #66
RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
(10-14-2020 06:29 AM)esayem Wrote:  I’m pretty sure there are already partnerships between universities outside of their athletic conference.

Academic research has little, if anything, to do with “partnerships” between universities. This whole discussion about the B10 being an academic consortium is hysterical. Maybe 100 years ago having a consortium to share library books had some value...but then somebody invented imaging, computers, telephones and the internet and destroyed the need for that form of archaic “partnerships”.

Universities that prioritize academic research grow their business by funding and enabling individuals who are successful at research. It’s the individuals (generally bright professors with passions for esoteric ventures) that truly build “partnerships” with other like-minded / complementary individuals. If a neonatal nurse researcher studying the impact of COVID at the University of Washington is seeking NIH funding, they could care less if their collaborators are associated with a PAC-12 university. The University of Washington administrators may encourage the researcher to use as many internal (UW) resources as possible when seeking funding, but the suggestion that university-level “partnerships“...much less athletic conference membership...has any role in research is just crazy.

It is true that universities have brands that they maintain. Those brands are used to recruit faculty and students. Universities can leverage athletic conference affiliation to enhance their brand...in that manner, strong academic schools actually provide brand value to all conference members. In other words, Vanderbilt helps the University of Alabama by being a predictable athletic competitor and helping the perception as one of Alabama’s peer.
10-14-2020 09:01 AM
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bullet Offline
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Post: #67
RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
(10-14-2020 08:56 AM)quo vadis Wrote:  
(10-13-2020 11:00 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(10-13-2020 05:41 PM)XLance Wrote:  
(10-13-2020 05:30 PM)bullet Wrote:  I think pay for play will be a deal breaker for some college presidents. Maybe many.

Notre Dame has said it would be. If they could get enough other schools to join them, the president might be able to keep his job!

Wake Forest has already said they wouldn't pay. Wake Forest President is the former Provost at Notre Dame.

Wisconsin's AD and President are both on record as saying they would probably drop the athletic program if pay-for-play becomes reality.

Nobody knows for sure, but I am not persuaded by these kinds of statements. IMO they reflect either (a) a cynical effort to sway the courts and/or public opinion away from full pay for play, or (b) an honestly held sentiment that is easy to express right now but which simply will not hold should pay for play come to pass and schools have to make actual decisions about how to proceed. In that event, I think alumni and general university community desires to have "big time" football will overwhelm this principle. I think this is especially true at public universities, that by their nature formally answer to a broader constituency. So while I think both Wisconsin and Notre Dame will "cave" and adopt pay for play rather than abandon their programs, I am a bit more confident in the case of Wisconsin.

But maybe we shall see.

07-coffee3

If they can get a critical mass they will not participate. But Wisconsin is not going to be able to withstand the pressure from alumni.

I do think a lot of private schools will not participate, at least in football. Duke, Wake Forest, Vanderbilt, Northwestern, Boston College and Syracuse and maybe even Miami, might decide to form a new league without pay for play football. Tulane, Rice and other schools would be added.
10-14-2020 09:28 AM
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MU88 Offline
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Post: #68
RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
(10-12-2020 06:50 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Someone at Notre Dame once told me that Notre Dame's academics would be like Marquette's if Notre Dame never had D-1 football. And he wasn't saying that as an insult to Marquette.

Elite sports attracts high end academic talent. Mediocre sports, on the other hand, do nothing. I think it's a waste of money for Rice to have a D-1 athletic department.

Before the mid-80s, the schools were considered pretty similar academically. ND used the NBC deal to enhance the academic rep. ND has skyrocketed over the past 40 years, while MU has maintained the status quo. MU has remained a top 80-100 school, while ND is in the top 30.
10-14-2020 11:04 AM
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Wahoowa84 Offline
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Post: #69
RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
(10-14-2020 11:04 AM)MU88 Wrote:  
(10-12-2020 06:50 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Someone at Notre Dame once told me that Notre Dame's academics would be like Marquette's if Notre Dame never had D-1 football. And he wasn't saying that as an insult to Marquette.

Elite sports attracts high end academic talent. Mediocre sports, on the other hand, do nothing. I think it's a waste of money for Rice to have a D-1 athletic department.

Before the mid-80s, the schools were considered pretty similar academically. ND used the NBC deal to enhance the academic rep. ND has skyrocketed over the past 40 years, while MU has maintained the status quo. MU has remained a top 80-100 school, while ND is in the top 30.
Notre Dame was blessed with some visionary leadership, especially the Rev Hesburgh from the 1950s - 1980s. Completely transformed the academic reputation of Notre Dame. Having a blue-blood football program didn’t hurt the effort.
10-14-2020 11:25 AM
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Love and Honor Offline
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Post: #70
RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
(10-14-2020 11:25 AM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  Notre Dame was blessed with some visionary leadership, especially the Rev Hesburgh from the 1950s - 1980s. Completely transformed the academic reputation of Notre Dame. Having a blue-blood football program didn’t hurt the effort.

Similar thing sorta happened with Ohio State. They were essentially open admission through the 80s but started leveraging their Big Ten success towards moving academically in the 90s. By the time they started contending again under Tressel they were on their way up, now they have a pretty decent reputation and for what its worth do pretty well in a lot of rankings.

That being said they are a publix university and were essentially granted a monopoly on doctorate programs and advanced research over a century ago, so not nearly as impressive as Notre Dame.
10-14-2020 07:51 PM
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esayem Offline
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Post: #71
RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
(10-14-2020 09:01 AM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  
(10-14-2020 06:29 AM)esayem Wrote:  I’m pretty sure there are already partnerships between universities outside of their athletic conference.

Academic research has little, if anything, to do with “partnerships” between universities. This whole discussion about the B10 being an academic consortium is hysterical. Maybe 100 years ago having a consortium to share library books had some value...but then somebody invented imaging, computers, telephones and the internet and destroyed the need for that form of archaic “partnerships”.

Universities that prioritize academic research grow their business by funding and enabling individuals who are successful at research. It’s the individuals (generally bright professors with passions for esoteric ventures) that truly build “partnerships” with other like-minded / complementary individuals. If a neonatal nurse researcher studying the impact of COVID at the University of Washington is seeking NIH funding, they could care less if their collaborators are associated with a PAC-12 university. The University of Washington administrators may encourage the researcher to use as many internal (UW) resources as possible when seeking funding, but the suggestion that university-level “partnerships“...much less athletic conference membership...has any role in research is just crazy.

It is true that universities have brands that they maintain. Those brands are used to recruit faculty and students. Universities can leverage athletic conference affiliation to enhance their brand...in that manner, strong academic schools actually provide brand value to all conference members. In other words, Vanderbilt helps the University of Alabama by being a predictable athletic competitor and helping the perception as one of Alabama’s peer.

That’s what I’m saying.
10-14-2020 08:12 PM
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esayem Offline
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RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
(10-14-2020 08:57 AM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  
(10-13-2020 06:38 AM)esayem Wrote:  Former University Division (FBS) programs Detroit Mercy, Marquette, Villanova, and Xavier all dropped football for monetary reasons, not academics. Villanova is of course back, and won a FCS title. I’m not sure about longtime University Division Independent, Dayton. They dropped to DIII in the late 70’s.

Dayton plays in I-AA/FCS and has since 1993.

Let me ask the contra question: under what means would a school "reemphasize" football when there are no conferences open to accept them? For sake of argument, Marquette goes all-in on I-A football. They have no place to play. The Big 10 certainly won't take them. C-USA is full. The Sun Belt isn't exactly Milwaukee. The barriers to entry are significant.

I couldn’t find anything about why Dayton dropped down.

Fordham and Villanova brought football back, although not back to the level they were before cutting the program.
10-14-2020 08:16 PM
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Love and Honor Offline
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Post: #73
RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
(10-14-2020 08:16 PM)esayem Wrote:  I couldn’t find anything about why Dayton dropped down.

Anecdotally from older Miami fans I know who were around when Dayton was DI and had an annual rivalry with us, it was a combination of the following:

- Independent conference affiliation making scheduling difficult.
- Inability to maintain a very successful basketball program while financially supporting a major college football team.
- Related to point two, lack of funds to expand Welcome Stadium (seats only 11,000) and upgrade other facilities to legit DI standards.
10-14-2020 08:44 PM
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esayem Offline
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RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
(10-14-2020 08:44 PM)Love and Honor Wrote:  
(10-14-2020 08:16 PM)esayem Wrote:  I couldn’t find anything about why Dayton dropped down.

Anecdotally from older Miami fans I know who were around when Dayton was DI and had an annual rivalry with us, it was a combination of the following:

- Independent conference affiliation making scheduling difficult.
- Inability to maintain a very successful basketball program while financially supporting a major college football team.
- Related to point two, lack of funds to expand Welcome Stadium (seats only 11,000) and upgrade other facilities to legit DI standards.

Thanks. Based on schedules, it seems like Dayton and Xavier were MAC-level programs, but were Independent.
10-14-2020 09:00 PM
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DFW HOYA Offline
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RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
As an independent, I think Dayton began to run out of Midwest opponents to play but the scholarships needed at that time were likely the issue. Its 1976 schedule, the last before smaller college opponents began to enter the list, was fairly impressive

9/3 Eastern Kentucky
9/11 Youngstown St.
9/18 Villanova
9/25 at Indiana State
10/2 Ball State
10/9 at Akron
10/16 at Marshall
10/23 Toledo
11/6 at Northeast Louisiana
11/13 at Temple
11/20 at Miami
10-14-2020 09:00 PM
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domer1978 Offline
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RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
I used to believe ND would de-emphasize if the changes that are coming happened. But this season showed me how much ND is attached to football. We're one of the big pushers to getting the season going.

Northwestern and Vandy, Wake Forest would be my guesses for de-emphasizing
10-15-2020 12:45 AM
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XLance Offline
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Post: #77
RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
(10-15-2020 12:45 AM)domer1978 Wrote:  I used to believe ND would de-emphasize if the changes that are coming happened. But this season showed me how much ND is attached to football. We're one of the big pushers to getting the season going.

Northwestern and Vandy, Wake Forest would be my guesses for de-emphasizing

It also proved to Notre Dame, that today it is not possible to rely on others that do not have a vested interest in your survival.
USC-no
Stanford-no
Navy-yes
ACC-yes

When the chips were down, the ACC, like Navy before them had Notre Dame's back.
Loyalty can not be purchased, only honored and cherished.
10-15-2020 04:55 AM
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quo vadis Offline
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Post: #78
RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
(10-15-2020 04:55 AM)XLance Wrote:  
(10-15-2020 12:45 AM)domer1978 Wrote:  I used to believe ND would de-emphasize if the changes that are coming happened. But this season showed me how much ND is attached to football. We're one of the big pushers to getting the season going.

Northwestern and Vandy, Wake Forest would be my guesses for de-emphasizing

It also proved to Notre Dame, that today it is not possible to rely on others that do not have a vested interest in your survival.
USC-no
Stanford-no
Navy-yes
ACC-yes

When the chips were down, the ACC, like Navy before them had Notre Dame's back.
Loyalty can not be purchased, only honored and cherished.

I don't think anyone at Notre Dame expected USC to buck their conference on this. That just couldn't happen, so I don't think there are hard feelings there. Especially since they did the same thing to Navy - choosing to abide by ACC conference rules and jettison their game with Navy.
10-15-2020 09:06 AM
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TerryD Offline
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RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
(10-13-2020 01:09 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(10-13-2020 12:29 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  "Yankee" is still considered an insult from Southerners to Northerners? I'm a Northerner and don't find the term offensive at all. If anything, it's something to take pride in.

As long as we're using 19th century lingo, I think Muskie in turn should refer to Bearcat as "Johnny Reb". Although Ohio and Illinois are not part of the South, so anyone living in either of those states is a "Yankee" too. 07-coffee3

I think it was intended as an insult. The great irony is that while my college sports loyalties rest with schools in Ohio since that’s where I’m from, culturally and politically I am far more Southern in my leanings.

(10-15-2020 04:55 AM)XLance Wrote:  
(10-15-2020 12:45 AM)domer1978 Wrote:  I used to believe ND would de-emphasize if the changes that are coming happened. But this season showed me how much ND is attached to football. We're one of the big pushers to getting the season going.

Northwestern and Vandy, Wake Forest would be my guesses for de-emphasizing

It also proved to Notre Dame, that today it is not possible to rely on others that do not have a vested interest in your survival.
USC-no
Stanford-no
Navy-yes
ACC-yes

When the chips were down, the ACC, like Navy before them had Notre Dame's back.
Loyalty can not be purchased, only honored and cherished.

You way overstate things, Lance.

The U.S. Navy actually saved Notre Dame, the institution itself, from having to close down in World War II.

The ACC accommodating ND's football program in scheduling for one season, while appreciated, is not in the same universe.

You inclusion of Southern Cal and Stanford in your statement is another bit of hyperbole, as Quo aptly points out.
(This post was last modified: 10-15-2020 09:30 AM by TerryD.)
10-15-2020 09:28 AM
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AllTideUp Offline
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RE: Will Vanderbilt and/or others de-emphasize athletics in the 21st Century?
(10-15-2020 09:28 AM)TerryD Wrote:  
(10-13-2020 01:09 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(10-13-2020 12:29 PM)Nerdlinger Wrote:  "Yankee" is still considered an insult from Southerners to Northerners? I'm a Northerner and don't find the term offensive at all. If anything, it's something to take pride in.

As long as we're using 19th century lingo, I think Muskie in turn should refer to Bearcat as "Johnny Reb". Although Ohio and Illinois are not part of the South, so anyone living in either of those states is a "Yankee" too. 07-coffee3

I think it was intended as an insult. The great irony is that while my college sports loyalties rest with schools in Ohio since that’s where I’m from, culturally and politically I am far more Southern in my leanings.

(10-15-2020 04:55 AM)XLance Wrote:  
(10-15-2020 12:45 AM)domer1978 Wrote:  I used to believe ND would de-emphasize if the changes that are coming happened. But this season showed me how much ND is attached to football. We're one of the big pushers to getting the season going.

Northwestern and Vandy, Wake Forest would be my guesses for de-emphasizing

It also proved to Notre Dame, that today it is not possible to rely on others that do not have a vested interest in your survival.
USC-no
Stanford-no
Navy-yes
ACC-yes

When the chips were down, the ACC, like Navy before them had Notre Dame's back.
Loyalty can not be purchased, only honored and cherished.

You way overstate things, Lance.

The U.S. Navy actually saved Notre Dame, the institution itself, from having to close down in World War II.

The ACC accommodating ND's football program in scheduling for one season, while appreciated, is not in the same universe.

You inclusion of Southern Cal and Stanford in your statement is another bit of hyperbole, as Quo aptly points out.

Your point is taken, but there's something else in Lance's statement that needs to be analyzed.

The ACC did do a favor for Notre Dame and that's important, but it's his earlier statement that's more relevant. The ACC depends on Notre Dame for survival and is willing to lend them a hand any which way they can. It's not that USC or Stanford did anything wrong, but whether intentionally or unintentionally, they were not structurally capable of ensuring Notre Dame played a season. The ACC was.

In other words, you can't always depend upon the kindness of strangers, but you can depend on the loyalty of those who need you.

In the end, that does make a difference.
10-18-2020 03:52 PM
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