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Rice vs. Middle Tenn
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ruowls Offline
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Post: #421
RE: Rice vs. Middle Tenn
[/quote]

I'm not fond of the idea of incorporating elements of several run schemes. I'd rather just have one and perfect it. Flexbone is basically 10 plays--inside veer, outside veer, trap, trap option, midline, counter, counter option, inside reverse, outside reverse, and jet sweep. You can perfect 10 plays. I have watched some of Mike Leach's Mississippi State games this year. Defenses are rushing 3 and dropping 8 and clogging up all the passing lanes. I keep thinking, if only he had a basic option running game, they couldn't play him that way and it would open up the passing. So that works both ways.

Why? It is basically the same thing. MTSU ran QB lead which is not in your set of 10 but very effective and can be combined with counter and read option which is basically your option running offense. If you remember, I said the running game includes the QB and can be read option, speed option, zone (which includes lead, stretch and sweep), counter, and power.

Yes, I'm mixing various passing schemes, but the routes basically all come off your route tree, with different backfield actions--dropback, play action, and sprintout. Air Raid and yours are more drop back, run and shoot is more play action and sprintout. You can incorporate every play from the run-and-shoot and Air Raid into your West Coast numbered route system. Some are virtually identical in all three schemes--like streak in the run and shoot, verticals in the Air Raid, and I would guess 999 in your system. So there really are fewer than 40 total plays.

No. I use rollout, half roll, and play action. All of these are used to distort the coverage and can make things easier (or harder) for a receiver with regards to defender manipulation.

[/quote]

Exactly, in all three phases. My only reason for preferring the option as the run game is that the people you need to run it can also play defense, which can be a big help when you are short depth. If you lose a corner, and are t then there, then maybe your second string slotback can move over to cover with more athleticism than your backup corner, or if you lose a d-lineman and one of of your backup o-linemen can move over and fill in, you can stretch out your personnel to cover shortages. That's a little bit harder to do with a pass-first scheme. But if you always have a fullback and a tight end, and recruit plenty of people at those positions, you always have some big, strong, and reasonably fast athletes who can help on defense.

But what I am saying is that similar atypical players can run my system as well as option so you don't lose any multiuse skills.


It's not easy to recruit people who can play both option and passing game, but Hawaii and Georgia Southern were obviously able to do it, so they are out there. Your QB needs to be able to run and throw, and there are plenty of those. Where we can probably do well is the kid who is a great HS QB that TexasU and aTm say, "Come here and we'll make you a corner or safety," whereas we can say, "Come here and play QB." Fullbacks and tight ends tend to be under-recruited because they don't fit a lot of Air Raid schemes, but they tend to be good athletes who can play on either side of the ball. Your flexbone o-linemen tend to be smaller and quicker, so they can fit better on the other side of the ball, but you may need some who are a bit bigger to throw the ball a lot, although not so much if you are heavy into the quick passing game. Your receivers may or may not be able to help out at DB if you have an excess of receivers. Some probably can, and that helps. I have to believe that in the past few years we have had some WRs with enough speed to move over to that side of the ball, where we needed more help than at WR.
[/quote]

Yes , but it is a continuum where it is better to lean towards passing ability. Because, the pass can set up the run and it is easier to marginalize athleticism this way.
10-28-2020 03:02 PM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #422
RE: Rice vs. Middle Tenn
The bottom line is that you are relying on spatial recognition, isolation and 'responsibility' football in both your passing game and an 'option' running game.... and this is different from most offenses in that it is done on the fly and not pre-snap.

And that should favor a more cerebral rather than more athletic player, which we should tend to have... and would generally be under-recruited.
10-28-2020 03:23 PM
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ruowls Offline
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Post: #423
RE: Rice vs. Middle Tenn
(10-28-2020 03:23 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  The bottom line is that you are relying on spatial recognition, isolation and 'responsibility' football in both your passing game and an 'option' running game.... and this is different from most offenses in that it is done on the fly and not pre-snap.

And that should favor a more cerebral rather than more athletic player, which we should tend to have... and would generally be under-recruited.

Wells said.
10-28-2020 03:29 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #424
RE: Rice vs. Middle Tenn
(10-28-2020 03:29 PM)ruowls Wrote:  
(10-28-2020 03:23 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  The bottom line is that you are relying on spatial recognition, isolation and 'responsibility' football in both your passing game and an 'option' running game.... and this is different from most offenses in that it is done on the fly and not pre-snap.
And that should favor a more cerebral rather than more athletic player, which we should tend to have... and would generally be under-recruited.
Wells said.

I see what you did there.

I think that's the point we are all making. Go to a scheme that requires adjustments on the fly and count on more cerebral players to be able to execute. Other than the conversation with Major that I mentioned above, I don't know that Rice has ever tried that. Arguably Hatfield with the option, but he didn't have enough of a passing game.
10-28-2020 05:41 PM
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ruowls Offline
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Post: #425
RE: Rice vs. Middle Tenn
(10-28-2020 05:41 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(10-28-2020 03:29 PM)ruowls Wrote:  
(10-28-2020 03:23 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  The bottom line is that you are relying on spatial recognition, isolation and 'responsibility' football in both your passing game and an 'option' running game.... and this is different from most offenses in that it is done on the fly and not pre-snap.
And that should favor a more cerebral rather than more athletic player, which we should tend to have... and would generally be under-recruited.
Wells said.

I see what you did there.

I think that's the point we are all making. Go to a scheme that requires adjustments on the fly and count on more cerebral players to be able to execute. Other than the conversation with Major that I mentioned above, I don't know that Rice has ever tried that. Arguably Hatfield with the option, but he didn't have enough of a passing game.

So interestingly, I started thinking about Rice bringing in a QB and an offensive mind to run a better passing system.
Arkansas brought in a HS coach to bring in his QB in the 2000s. Of course, it was Malzahn and Mustain. Interestingly, Malzahn was a walk-on WR at Arkansas in 1984 with Hatfield as the coach. So since we just played MTSU, I thought about Stockstill bringing in his son as QB. Interestingly, Rick coached at Clemson under....Hatfield. So you have these two coaches that were familiar with the Hatfield flexbone that have a reputation for the pass.
10-28-2020 07:53 PM
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Owl 69/70/75 Offline
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Post: #426
RE: Rice vs. Middle Tenn
(10-28-2020 07:53 PM)ruowls Wrote:  So interestingly, I started thinking about Rice bringing in a QB and an offensive mind to run a better passing system.
Arkansas brought in a HS coach to bring in his QB in the 2000s. Of course, it was Malzahn and Mustain. Interestingly, Malzahn was a walk-on WR at Arkansas in 1984 with Hatfield as the coach. So since we just played MTSU, I thought about Stockstill bringing in his son as QB. Interestingly, Rick coached at Clemson under....Hatfield. So you have these two coaches that were familiar with the Hatfield flexbone that have a reputation for the pass.

I'm not as familiar with Stockstill's offense, but because of Auburn family connections I've watched Malzahn's a lot. I wouldn't call Malzahn a passing guru. His offense is basically Hatfield's triple, adjusted to the geometry of the shotgun. His passing offense is pretty much high school level of sophistication. It's a lot of 2 and 3 receiver patterns, not a lot different from Hatfield's, although Gus does call more pass plays. He doesn't really run stretches to stress defenders, but relies more on receivers beating defenders one-on-one. It can work for a while because it's different, but SEC schools are starting to figure it out and he's been struggling. The alumni are not happy, and the major criticism is the lack of sophistication in the passing offense.

I always thought that Malzahn was hired at Arkansas for the express purpose of bringing along Mustain and a bunch of his teammates from Springdale HS, kind of similar to the story that Frank Thomas hired Malcolm Laney at Alabama in 1944 for the purpose of bringing along Harry Gilmer from Woodlawn HS.
(This post was last modified: 10-29-2020 07:38 AM by Owl 69/70/75.)
10-29-2020 07:21 AM
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Hambone10 Offline
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Post: #427
RE: Rice vs. Middle Tenn
(10-28-2020 07:53 PM)ruowls Wrote:  
(10-28-2020 05:41 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(10-28-2020 03:29 PM)ruowls Wrote:  
(10-28-2020 03:23 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  The bottom line is that you are relying on spatial recognition, isolation and 'responsibility' football in both your passing game and an 'option' running game.... and this is different from most offenses in that it is done on the fly and not pre-snap.
And that should favor a more cerebral rather than more athletic player, which we should tend to have... and would generally be under-recruited.
Wells said.

I see what you did there.

I think that's the point we are all making. Go to a scheme that requires adjustments on the fly and count on more cerebral players to be able to execute. Other than the conversation with Major that I mentioned above, I don't know that Rice has ever tried that. Arguably Hatfield with the option, but he didn't have enough of a passing game.

So interestingly, I started thinking about Rice bringing in a QB and an offensive mind to run a better passing system.
Arkansas brought in a HS coach to bring in his QB in the 2000s. Of course, it was Malzahn and Mustain. Interestingly, Malzahn was a walk-on WR at Arkansas in 1984 with Hatfield as the coach. So since we just played MTSU, I thought about Stockstill bringing in his son as QB. Interestingly, Rick coached at Clemson under....Hatfield. So you have these two coaches that were familiar with the Hatfield flexbone that have a reputation for the pass.

ALSO Wells said.

Do you have a QB son and coach father in mind?
10-29-2020 01:15 PM
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ruowls Offline
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Post: #428
RE: Rice vs. Middle Tenn
(10-29-2020 01:15 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(10-28-2020 07:53 PM)ruowls Wrote:  
(10-28-2020 05:41 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(10-28-2020 03:29 PM)ruowls Wrote:  
(10-28-2020 03:23 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  The bottom line is that you are relying on spatial recognition, isolation and 'responsibility' football in both your passing game and an 'option' running game.... and this is different from most offenses in that it is done on the fly and not pre-snap.
And that should favor a more cerebral rather than more athletic player, which we should tend to have... and would generally be under-recruited.
Wells said.

I see what you did there.

I think that's the point we are all making. Go to a scheme that requires adjustments on the fly and count on more cerebral players to be able to execute. Other than the conversation with Major that I mentioned above, I don't know that Rice has ever tried that. Arguably Hatfield with the option, but he didn't have enough of a passing game.

So interestingly, I started thinking about Rice bringing in a QB and an offensive mind to run a better passing system.
Arkansas brought in a HS coach to bring in his QB in the 2000s. Of course, it was Malzahn and Mustain. Interestingly, Malzahn was a walk-on WR at Arkansas in 1984 with Hatfield as the coach. So since we just played MTSU, I thought about Stockstill bringing in his son as QB. Interestingly, Rick coached at Clemson under....Hatfield. So you have these two coaches that were familiar with the Hatfield flexbone that have a reputation for the pass.

ALSO Wells said.

Do you have a QB son and coach father in mind?

Why yes, yes I do.

Speaking of father/son coach/QB situations...
I played in a HS football all-star game that would go on to have that situation. There were some serious arms in that game. The 2 starting QBs that game went on to be rather prolific in college. Of course, one went on to play for his dad and the other had to go elsewhere. The son QB ended up passing for 10,623 yards with a QB rating of 130.6. The other finished with 11,425 yards and a QB rating of 133.9. Of course, I got in a little trouble when I was asked who was the better QB in front of the dad and I said it wasn't his son.
10-29-2020 03:21 PM
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OptimisticOwl Offline
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Post: #429
RE: Rice vs. Middle Tenn
(10-29-2020 03:21 PM)ruowls Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 01:15 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(10-28-2020 07:53 PM)ruowls Wrote:  
(10-28-2020 05:41 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  
(10-28-2020 03:29 PM)ruowls Wrote:  Wells said.

I see what you did there.

I think that's the point we are all making. Go to a scheme that requires adjustments on the fly and count on more cerebral players to be able to execute. Other than the conversation with Major that I mentioned above, I don't know that Rice has ever tried that. Arguably Hatfield with the option, but he didn't have enough of a passing game.

So interestingly, I started thinking about Rice bringing in a QB and an offensive mind to run a better passing system.
Arkansas brought in a HS coach to bring in his QB in the 2000s. Of course, it was Malzahn and Mustain. Interestingly, Malzahn was a walk-on WR at Arkansas in 1984 with Hatfield as the coach. So since we just played MTSU, I thought about Stockstill bringing in his son as QB. Interestingly, Rick coached at Clemson under....Hatfield. So you have these two coaches that were familiar with the Hatfield flexbone that have a reputation for the pass.

ALSO Wells said.

Do you have a QB son and coach father in mind?

Why yes, yes I do.

Speaking of father/son coach/QB situations...
I played in a HS football all-star game that would go on to have that situation. There were some serious arms in that game. The 2 starting QBs that game went on to be rather prolific in college. Of course, one went on to play for his dad and the other had to go elsewhere. The son QB ended up passing for 10,623 yards with a QB rating of 130.6. The other finished with 11,425 yards and a QB rating of 133.9. Of course, I got in a little trouble when I was asked who was the better QB in front of the dad and I said it wasn't his son.

Not a politician, eh?
10-29-2020 04:09 PM
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WRCisforgotten79 Offline
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Post: #430
RE: Rice vs. Middle Tenn
It's interesting how much the NFL has become a QB driven league. In the 1988 NFL Draft, for example, no quarterback was chosen until the third round (Tom Tupa, Chris Chandler). The next quarterback didn't go until the 6th.
10-29-2020 04:33 PM
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ruowls Offline
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Post: #431
RE: Rice vs. Middle Tenn
(10-29-2020 04:09 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 03:21 PM)ruowls Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 01:15 PM)Hambone10 Wrote:  
(10-28-2020 07:53 PM)ruowls Wrote:  
(10-28-2020 05:41 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  I see what you did there.

I think that's the point we are all making. Go to a scheme that requires adjustments on the fly and count on more cerebral players to be able to execute. Other than the conversation with Major that I mentioned above, I don't know that Rice has ever tried that. Arguably Hatfield with the option, but he didn't have enough of a passing game.

So interestingly, I started thinking about Rice bringing in a QB and an offensive mind to run a better passing system.
Arkansas brought in a HS coach to bring in his QB in the 2000s. Of course, it was Malzahn and Mustain. Interestingly, Malzahn was a walk-on WR at Arkansas in 1984 with Hatfield as the coach. So since we just played MTSU, I thought about Stockstill bringing in his son as QB. Interestingly, Rick coached at Clemson under....Hatfield. So you have these two coaches that were familiar with the Hatfield flexbone that have a reputation for the pass.

ALSO Wells said.

Do you have a QB son and coach father in mind?

Why yes, yes I do.

Speaking of father/son coach/QB situations...
I played in a HS football all-star game that would go on to have that situation. There were some serious arms in that game. The 2 starting QBs that game went on to be rather prolific in college. Of course, one went on to play for his dad and the other had to go elsewhere. The son QB ended up passing for 10,623 yards with a QB rating of 130.6. The other finished with 11,425 yards and a QB rating of 133.9. Of course, I got in a little trouble when I was asked who was the better QB in front of the dad and I said it wasn't his son.

Not a politician, eh?

Nope.

Of course, I said that at the start of their college career. So, in the end, my original assessment was spot on.
10-29-2020 04:35 PM
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ruowls Offline
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Post: #432
RE: Rice vs. Middle Tenn
(10-29-2020 04:33 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  It's interesting how much the NFL has become a QB driven league. In the 1988 NFL Draft, for example, no quarterback was chosen until the third round (Tom Tupa, Chris Chandler). The next quarterback didn't go until the 6th.

Become?
In 1983, 6 QBs were taken in the first round.
10-29-2020 05:31 PM
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WRCisforgotten79 Offline
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Post: #433
RE: Rice vs. Middle Tenn
(10-29-2020 05:31 PM)ruowls Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 04:33 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  It's interesting how much the NFL has become a QB driven league. In the 1988 NFL Draft, for example, no quarterback was chosen until the third round (Tom Tupa, Chris Chandler). The next quarterback didn't go until the 6th.

Become?
In 1983, 6 QBs were taken in the first round.

That was unusual.

1984 - 0 first round
1985 - 0 first round
1986 - 2 first round (3rd and 12th)
1987 - 4 first round (1st, 6th, 13th, 26th)
1988 - 0 first round
1989 - 1 first round (1st)
1990 - 2 first round (1st, 7th)
1991 - 2 first round (16th, 24th)
1992 - 2 first round (6th, 25th)

That's 13 in 9 seasons (1.44/season).

That trend continued for the next 10 years, with just 19 picked in the 1st round, which total was inflated by 5 being chosen in 1999.

Without 1999, that's 14 in 9 seasons (1.55/season).

Compare that with the past 4 drafts, in which a combined 15 quarterbacks have been chosen in the 1st round.

That's 15 in 4 seasons (3.75/season).
(This post was last modified: 10-29-2020 06:38 PM by WRCisforgotten79.)
10-29-2020 06:19 PM
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ruowls Offline
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Post: #434
RE: Rice vs. Middle Tenn
(10-29-2020 06:19 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 05:31 PM)ruowls Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 04:33 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  It's interesting how much the NFL has become a QB driven league. In the 1988 NFL Draft, for example, no quarterback was chosen until the third round (Tom Tupa, Chris Chandler). The next quarterback didn't go until the 6th.

Become?
In 1983, 6 QBs were taken in the first round.

That was unusual.

1984 - 0 first round
1985 - 0 first round
1986 - 2 first round (3rd and 12th)
1987 - 4 first round (1st, 6th, 13th, 26th)
1988 - 0 first round
1989 - 1 first round (1st)
1990 - 2 first round (1st, 7th)
1991 - 2 first round (16th, 24th)
1992 - 2 first round (6th, 25th)

That's 13 in 9 seasons (1.44/season).

Compare that with the past 4 drafts, in which a combined 15 quarterbacks have been chosen in the 1st round.

That's 15 in 4 seasons (3.75/season).

So, in the last 4 seasons, the quest for a franchise QB has not panned out. It would be interesting to go back and see if entrenched QB starters and quality of the draft effected selections. It seems obvious that the quality of the 83 draft and the longevity of those QBs drafted would let teams utilize their draft choices for players other than QBs. The question is how long this effect lasted and when teams started to get the next "sure thing". And it would be interesting to see if the recent highly drafted QBs remained entrenched at a level similar to the 83 draft.
10-29-2020 06:33 PM
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WRCisforgotten79 Offline
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Post: #435
RE: Rice vs. Middle Tenn
(10-29-2020 06:33 PM)ruowls Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 06:19 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 05:31 PM)ruowls Wrote:  
(10-29-2020 04:33 PM)WRCisforgotten79 Wrote:  It's interesting how much the NFL has become a QB driven league. In the 1988 NFL Draft, for example, no quarterback was chosen until the third round (Tom Tupa, Chris Chandler). The next quarterback didn't go until the 6th.

Become?
In 1983, 6 QBs were taken in the first round.

That was unusual.

1984 - 0 first round
1985 - 0 first round
1986 - 2 first round (3rd and 12th)
1987 - 4 first round (1st, 6th, 13th, 26th)
1988 - 0 first round
1989 - 1 first round (1st)
1990 - 2 first round (1st, 7th)
1991 - 2 first round (16th, 24th)
1992 - 2 first round (6th, 25th)

That's 13 in 9 seasons (1.44/season).

Compare that with the past 4 drafts, in which a combined 15 quarterbacks have been chosen in the 1st round.

That's 15 in 4 seasons (3.75/season).

So, in the last 4 seasons, the quest for a franchise QB has not panned out. It would be interesting to go back and see if entrenched QB starters and quality of the draft effected selections. It seems obvious that the quality of the 83 draft and the longevity of those QBs drafted would let teams utilize their draft choices for players other than QBs. The question is how long this effect lasted and when teams started to get the next "sure thing". And it would be interesting to see if the recent highly drafted QBs remained entrenched at a level similar to the 83 draft.

I added to my post to show that, except for 1999, there was still no uptick in 1st round QBs for the seasons 1993-2002.
10-29-2020 06:41 PM
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ruowls Offline
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Post: #436
RE: Rice vs. Middle Tenn
I wouldn't call Malzahn a passing guru. His offense is basically Hatfield's triple, adjusted to the geometry of the shotgun. His passing offense is pretty much high school level of sophistication. It's a lot of 2 and 3 receiver patterns, not a lot different from Hatfield's, although Gus does call more pass plays. He doesn't really run stretches to stress defenders, but relies more on receivers beating defenders one-on-one. It can work for a while because it's different, but SEC schools are starting to figure it out and he's been struggling. The alumni are not happy, and the major criticism is the lack of sophistication in the passing offense.

I always thought that Malzahn was hired at Arkansas for the express purpose of bringing along Mustain and a bunch of his teammates from Springdale HS, kind of similar to the story that Frank Thomas hired Malcolm Laney at Alabama in 1944 for the purpose of bringing along Harry Gilmer from Woodlawn HS.
[/quote]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1858...ks-so-fast

https://www.cover1.net/a-firsthand-look-...s-offense/

It is interesting to read these. A couple of observations.
Where is the option? The first article compares Auburn to GT and the service academies as an option team. It states it uses similar elements. They use the zone read which is a shotgun adaption of option. But the comparison to triple option is a bit of a reach. The articles also talk about power running game and the use of power and counter. In't that combining run scheme elements? Power and counter is the Rice offense. The options in Auburn's offense aren't really options of the triple option. It is more elements of zone and power I. They throw in some fly and some of the zone read so it is just a mixture of run schemes. Interestingly, they both diagram the Buck Sweep. That isn't option. It is just power with speed. Granted, the QB can keep it and this is elements of midline as well as "isolation/lead".
But as you say, the passing game and much of the running game is based on speed, athleticism and big linemen.
Auburn is definitely like most SEC teams. Recruit speed and athleticism and let them run over, around and past opponents. And yes Auburn's passing game is rudimentary.
Another observation. If you look at the play descriptions, the actions are listed as responsibilities in great detail. And that is one of the issues I brought up with Rice. Plays can fall apart because the actions of a defense do not support the use of those specific tasks to achieve success in every instance.
10-30-2020 02:28 PM
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