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Introduction to New Interim AD Martin
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #41
Introduction to New Interim AD Martin
Option #1 for me is to put T&F/XC, VB, gymnastics, swimming, LAX, and golf on notice: raise enough money to fully fund your programs for the next 3 years ('21-'24), or they will be cut by 01/01/2022. That puts the ball squarely at the feet of fans. This way, if our AD cuts a sport, she or he can say, "I was up front, transparent, honest, and deliberate...you failed to support [sport], so I'm forced to drop it."

I would take no issue with that.

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10-09-2020 08:31 PM
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mrjoolius Online
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Post: #42
RE: Introduction to New Interim AD Martin
(10-09-2020 12:32 PM)Tribe2011 Wrote:  
(10-09-2020 11:57 AM)Tribe32 Wrote:  3) The elephant in the room is pretty hard to hide. If we know that men's hoops and football are much higher than median, in fact on top for basketball, then maybe we are spending more than we need to on those sports at the expense of the others. I'm not debating on whether those sports are more important than others, but I'm not sure how the extra money has resulted in wins and losses (I have no clue). So to me, should we look at that and figure out what to do rather than cutting sports that are close to being self funded.

If we indeed have ramped up our football and basketball budgets, then it's been done within the last year or two (data as of 2018 has us virtually last in the conference for basketball) and that investment doesn't have an immediate impact. It's not like you can double your budget and expect results the next year - you still largely have the same team, same facilities, same coaching staff, etc. The results will be over the long term - we upgrade our training facilities and arena, which then helps with recruiting; when an assistance coach comes in demand we have the ability to give him a raise and keep him instead of losing him elsewhere; coaches are able to travel to scout and recruit more resulting in better players. All of those things take time. And they're all 100% necessary unless we want to drop back to our historical basketball performance over the long term.
It was brought to my attention that those numbers for the basketball/football budgets being thrown around in the title IX docs and the news article are not the true expenditure numbers. The 2019 basketball budget was $2.3 million (football $7.07 million), which puts us squarely in the bottom tier of the CAA in spending for basketball. Didn't check where that puts us in football spending.
(This post was last modified: 10-09-2020 09:29 PM by mrjoolius.)
10-09-2020 09:25 PM
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tribetime10 Offline
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Post: #43
RE: Introduction to New Interim AD Martin
(10-09-2020 04:31 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  
(10-09-2020 04:13 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  One of the biggest questions I think that needs to be answered is whether or not we can expect Tribe Club giving, and therefore it's reserve, to return to pre-Huge levels. Surely that kind of drop-off can't be attributed to her alone. I think the only way to stave off cutting sports (within the three boxes Martin laid out) is massive investment into long term endowments.

I think the drop off has to do with a few factors. First, it is definitely connected to Laycock and Shaver. That's a fact that is acknowledged from inside the department. People were pissed and some spiteful. Second, people are being asked to give more and more across the college, and personally that gets old. Finally, giving back isn't an option for a lot of younger alumni. Young people are saddled by student loans and not breaking even until they are well into their thirties. I started giving back a little bit when I was just out of school and became a pattern. Not sure if that's going to be the case going forward. Younger folks to want to give back in terms of their volunteer time, but that doesn't fund an athletic department.

I agree on the long term endowments. The challenge is how to find people who have massive wealth and who just want to donate out of the blue.

I'd argue that of late, we aren't doing enough to reach younger folks.

2005-2015 grads are established and out there. I think the department is trying to hit homeruns, when we should be looking for more singles and doubles.
10-09-2020 09:45 PM
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zablenoise Offline
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Post: #44
RE: Introduction to New Interim AD Martin
(10-09-2020 09:45 PM)tribetime10 Wrote:  I'd argue that of late, we aren't doing enough to reach younger folks.

2005-2015 grads are established and out there. I think the department is trying to hit homeruns, when we should be looking for more singles and doubles.

Right. It's the exact model that's been used by the school at large during For the Bold and it's gone very well. I'd hope to see our athletic department move that direction as well. I always thought a sort of "hidden" knock on Huge was that she was not great at bringing money into the department.


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10-09-2020 09:51 PM
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zablenoise Offline
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Post: #45
RE: Introduction to New Interim AD Martin
(10-09-2020 08:31 PM)Tribal Wrote:  Option #1 for me is to put T&F/XC, VB, gymnastics, swimming, LAX, and golf on notice: raise enough money to fully fund your programs for the next 3 years ('21-'24), or they will be cut by 01/01/2022. That puts the ball squarely at the feet of fans. This way, if our AD cuts a sport, she or he can say, "I was up front, transparent, honest, and deliberate...you failed to support [sport], so I'm forced to drop it."

I would take no issue with that.

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I know she's gone and I don't have to worry about it anymore but it blows my mind that Huge took the opposite approach. Swimming literally approached her when they realized the writing was on the wall and she went out of her way to deny it for over a year. Just imagine where we could be if they had that sort of fundraising head start.

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10-09-2020 09:54 PM
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Zorch Offline
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Post: #46
RE: Introduction to New Interim AD Martin
(10-09-2020 05:01 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  
(10-09-2020 04:54 PM)Zorch Wrote:  I think that if the 7 sports are ultimately dropped that the Tribe Club can forget about ever getting a single dime from followers of any of the 7 sports (and even from followers of other sports who wonder if they will be next). So, will the increased giving (if any) of the football/basketball crowd be enough to offset the loss of donations from fans of those other sports?

Cynically, I'm not sure that's enough money to make a difference. Like our Tribe Club coffers weren't overflowing because of our men's gymnastics team. If "Save the Tribe 7" wants to hit the AD in the wallet I think the department would respond by scaling down further and putting together a skeleton list of sports that still have donors. I don't see that as an outcome anyone really wants.

I think that you would be surprised by how much the "lesser" sports contribute to the Tribe Club. MGym gave $120K this year, ranking it fourth among sports. Swimming gave $191K (exceeded only by Football's $433K). Men's Track was fifth with $109K. I highlighted these numbers in a post in the "W&M Drops Seven Sports" thread and I have inserted it below.

Meanwhile, here are two good links. The first is "Cutting NCAA Sports Saves A Buck, But Costly to Schools, Athletes" by nationally famous and highly regarded Christine Brennan. The closing paragraphs are great:

"At William & Mary, though, the university community has risen up for a fierce fight to save the 118 athletes and 13 coaches affected by the elimination of the seven sports. The athletic director is gone, while alumni from those sports are aggressively campaigning for the programs’ reinstatement.

In other words, the athlete alums are the very people William & Mary should have known they would be: totally engaged, looking out for their school, fighting for those who came after them, the kind of people they should never want to lose."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/co...5909358002

The second is an email sent to all the honchos from an alumnus named Roger Crook. He thoroughly dissects and disembowels the presentation that Jeremy Martin just gave. Since Crook sent his email on 9/29, I am rather shocked that Martin went ahead and presented it. I got both of these links from the Save Tribe Swimming website.

https://616e0124-2790-47d0-96a7-e87abf76...93332c.pdf

EDIT: I also meant to say that the Swimming website has a "Pledge To Not Donate" list. Interesting that just since its inception on October 7 it already had more than 470 names. That is a lot of money lost to the College.

(10-06-2020 03:21 PM)Zorch Wrote:  I saw a spreadsheet on the Tribe Athletics site that shows the fundraising history, by sport, of the Tribe Club for the last seven years. It is called "Tribe Club Fundraising History (7 Years)" at this link:

https://tribeathletics.com/sports/2020/9...px?id=1869

It is interesting to note several things about the spreadsheet. First, it separates all men's and women's sports except for swimming and golf where they are combined. So, of the 17 different entries on the sheet, 13 of them suffered drops in Tribe Club giving between 2019 and 2020. Some of those drops were quite large which I wlll highlight below. However, of the 4 that saw gains in giving, 3 of them were Swimming, Men's Gymnastics, and Women's Gymnastics (the fourth was Women's Basketball). WBB went up only $1,715.76 (2%). Swimming went up $58,993.47 (44.6%!). MGym went up $25,870.49 (27.5%) and WGym went up $19,731.43 (91.7%).

Football went down $277K (39%), MBB went down $254K (61.6%). Baseball and MSoc also had large drops.

The point is: hopefully the new AD will look at this and realize that since only 4 sports had increased their donations in the last year that maybe cutting 3 of those 4 sports was not such a great idea !!
(This post was last modified: 10-10-2020 12:04 PM by Zorch.)
10-10-2020 11:38 AM
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Tribe3455 Offline
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Post: #47
RE: Introduction to New Interim AD Martin
(10-10-2020 11:38 AM)Zorch Wrote:  
(10-09-2020 05:01 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  
(10-09-2020 04:54 PM)Zorch Wrote:  I think that if the 7 sports are ultimately dropped that the Tribe Club can forget about ever getting a single dime from followers of any of the 7 sports (and even from followers of other sports who wonder if they will be next). So, will the increased giving (if any) of the football/basketball crowd be enough to offset the loss of donations from fans of those other sports?

Cynically, I'm not sure that's enough money to make a difference. Like our Tribe Club coffers weren't overflowing because of our men's gymnastics team. If "Save the Tribe 7" wants to hit the AD in the wallet I think the department would respond by scaling down further and putting together a skeleton list of sports that still have donors. I don't see that as an outcome anyone really wants.

I think that you would be surprised by how much the "lesser" sports contribute to the Tribe Club. MGym gave $120K this year, ranking it fourth among sports. Swimming gave $191K (exceeded only by Football's $433K). Men's Track was fifth with $109K. I highlighted these numbers in a post in the "W&M Drops Seven Sports" thread and I have inserted it below.

Meanwhile, here are two good links. The first is "Cutting NCAA Sports Saves A Buck, But Costly to Schools, Athletes" by nationally famous and highly regarded Christine Brennan. The closing paragraphs are great:

"At William & Mary, though, the university community has risen up for a fierce fight to save the 118 athletes and 13 coaches affected by the elimination of the seven sports. The athletic director is gone, while alumni from those sports are aggressively campaigning for the programs’ reinstatement.

In other words, the athlete alums are the very people William & Mary should have known they would be: totally engaged, looking out for their school, fighting for those who came after them, the kind of people they should never want to lose."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/co...5909358002

The second is an email sent to all the honchos from an alumnus named Roger Crook. He thoroughly dissects and disembowels the presentation that Jeremy Martin just gave. Since Crook sent his email on 9/29, I am rather shocked that Martin went ahead and presented it. I got both of these links from the Save Tribe Swimming website.

https://616e0124-2790-47d0-96a7-e87abf76...93332c.pdf

EDIT: I also meant to say that the Swimming website has a "Pledge To Not Donate" list. Interesting that just since its inception on October 7 it already had more than 470 names. That is a lot of money lost to the College.

(10-06-2020 03:21 PM)Zorch Wrote:  I saw a spreadsheet on the Tribe Athletics site that shows the fundraising history, by sport, of the Tribe Club for the last seven years. It is called "Tribe Club Fundraising History (7 Years)" at this link:

https://tribeathletics.com/sports/2020/9...px?id=1869

It is interesting to note several things about the spreadsheet. First, it separates all men's and women's sports except for swimming and golf where they are combined. So, of the 17 different entries on the sheet, 13 of them suffered drops in Tribe Club giving between 2019 and 2020. Some of those drops were quite large which I wlll highlight below. However, of the 4 that saw gains in giving, 3 of them were Swimming, Men's Gymnastics, and Women's Gymnastics (the fourth was Women's Basketball). WBB went up only $1,715.76 (2%). Swimming went up $58,993.47 (44.6%!). MGym went up $25,870.49 (27.5%) and WGym went up $19,731.43 (91.7%).

Football went down $277K (39%), MBB went down $254K (61.6%). Baseball and MSoc also had large drops.

The point is: hopefully the new AD will look at this and realize that since only 4 sports had increased their donations in the last year that maybe cutting 3 of those 4 sports was not such a great idea !!

Not surprising. Swimming and gymnastics knew this was a possibility for years.
10-10-2020 02:27 PM
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Tribe32 Offline
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Post: #48
RE: Introduction to New Interim AD Martin
Tribe3455, you are correct. These sports knew the deal. There have been conversations inside the department that sports needed to be pared back for a while. The message was simply if you can sustain your sport without additional money from the department then you are all set. That's true with the ones that were cut and some that weren't. The problem is that at least Swimming was told they weren't being cut this summer.

Right now, my concern is that we've got a worse problem to deal with than the seven teams on the chopping block. The fact that we've blown through half of the Tribe Club cushion over the last few years is mind blowing. Once that runs out we are burnt toast.
10-10-2020 04:29 PM
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Post: #49
RE: Introduction to New Interim AD Martin
(10-10-2020 02:27 PM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  
(10-10-2020 11:38 AM)Zorch Wrote:  
(10-09-2020 05:01 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  
(10-09-2020 04:54 PM)Zorch Wrote:  I think that if the 7 sports are ultimately dropped that the Tribe Club can forget about ever getting a single dime from followers of any of the 7 sports (and even from followers of other sports who wonder if they will be next). So, will the increased giving (if any) of the football/basketball crowd be enough to offset the loss of donations from fans of those other sports?

Cynically, I'm not sure that's enough money to make a difference. Like our Tribe Club coffers weren't overflowing because of our men's gymnastics team. If "Save the Tribe 7" wants to hit the AD in the wallet I think the department would respond by scaling down further and putting together a skeleton list of sports that still have donors. I don't see that as an outcome anyone really wants.

I think that you would be surprised by how much the "lesser" sports contribute to the Tribe Club. MGym gave $120K this year, ranking it fourth among sports. Swimming gave $191K (exceeded only by Football's $433K). Men's Track was fifth with $109K. I highlighted these numbers in a post in the "W&M Drops Seven Sports" thread and I have inserted it below.

Meanwhile, here are two good links. The first is "Cutting NCAA Sports Saves A Buck, But Costly to Schools, Athletes" by nationally famous and highly regarded Christine Brennan. The closing paragraphs are great:

"At William & Mary, though, the university community has risen up for a fierce fight to save the 118 athletes and 13 coaches affected by the elimination of the seven sports. The athletic director is gone, while alumni from those sports are aggressively campaigning for the programs’ reinstatement.

In other words, the athlete alums are the very people William & Mary should have known they would be: totally engaged, looking out for their school, fighting for those who came after them, the kind of people they should never want to lose."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/co...5909358002

The second is an email sent to all the honchos from an alumnus named Roger Crook. He thoroughly dissects and disembowels the presentation that Jeremy Martin just gave. Since Crook sent his email on 9/29, I am rather shocked that Martin went ahead and presented it. I got both of these links from the Save Tribe Swimming website.

https://616e0124-2790-47d0-96a7-e87abf76...93332c.pdf

EDIT: I also meant to say that the Swimming website has a "Pledge To Not Donate" list. Interesting that just since its inception on October 7 it already had more than 470 names. That is a lot of money lost to the College.

(10-06-2020 03:21 PM)Zorch Wrote:  I saw a spreadsheet on the Tribe Athletics site that shows the fundraising history, by sport, of the Tribe Club for the last seven years. It is called "Tribe Club Fundraising History (7 Years)" at this link:

https://tribeathletics.com/sports/2020/9...px?id=1869

It is interesting to note several things about the spreadsheet. First, it separates all men's and women's sports except for swimming and golf where they are combined. So, of the 17 different entries on the sheet, 13 of them suffered drops in Tribe Club giving between 2019 and 2020. Some of those drops were quite large which I wlll highlight below. However, of the 4 that saw gains in giving, 3 of them were Swimming, Men's Gymnastics, and Women's Gymnastics (the fourth was Women's Basketball). WBB went up only $1,715.76 (2%). Swimming went up $58,993.47 (44.6%!). MGym went up $25,870.49 (27.5%) and WGym went up $19,731.43 (91.7%).

Football went down $277K (39%), MBB went down $254K (61.6%). Baseball and MSoc also had large drops.

The point is: hopefully the new AD will look at this and realize that since only 4 sports had increased their donations in the last year that maybe cutting 3 of those 4 sports was not such a great idea !!

Not surprising. Swimming and gymnastics knew this was a possibility for years.

Yeah, and they did something about it. If football and basketball supporters were to step forward and cover the equivalent deficits in their sports then perhaps the administration wouldn't be looking to make up the difference by stealing endowments and cutting sports? Just asking.
10-10-2020 04:32 PM
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Tribe3455 Offline
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Post: #50
RE: Introduction to New Interim AD Martin
(10-10-2020 04:32 PM)Zorch Wrote:  
(10-10-2020 02:27 PM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  
(10-10-2020 11:38 AM)Zorch Wrote:  
(10-09-2020 05:01 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  
(10-09-2020 04:54 PM)Zorch Wrote:  I think that if the 7 sports are ultimately dropped that the Tribe Club can forget about ever getting a single dime from followers of any of the 7 sports (and even from followers of other sports who wonder if they will be next). So, will the increased giving (if any) of the football/basketball crowd be enough to offset the loss of donations from fans of those other sports?

Cynically, I'm not sure that's enough money to make a difference. Like our Tribe Club coffers weren't overflowing because of our men's gymnastics team. If "Save the Tribe 7" wants to hit the AD in the wallet I think the department would respond by scaling down further and putting together a skeleton list of sports that still have donors. I don't see that as an outcome anyone really wants.

I think that you would be surprised by how much the "lesser" sports contribute to the Tribe Club. MGym gave $120K this year, ranking it fourth among sports. Swimming gave $191K (exceeded only by Football's $433K). Men's Track was fifth with $109K. I highlighted these numbers in a post in the "W&M Drops Seven Sports" thread and I have inserted it below.

Meanwhile, here are two good links. The first is "Cutting NCAA Sports Saves A Buck, But Costly to Schools, Athletes" by nationally famous and highly regarded Christine Brennan. The closing paragraphs are great:

"At William & Mary, though, the university community has risen up for a fierce fight to save the 118 athletes and 13 coaches affected by the elimination of the seven sports. The athletic director is gone, while alumni from those sports are aggressively campaigning for the programs’ reinstatement.

In other words, the athlete alums are the very people William & Mary should have known they would be: totally engaged, looking out for their school, fighting for those who came after them, the kind of people they should never want to lose."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/co...5909358002

The second is an email sent to all the honchos from an alumnus named Roger Crook. He thoroughly dissects and disembowels the presentation that Jeremy Martin just gave. Since Crook sent his email on 9/29, I am rather shocked that Martin went ahead and presented it. I got both of these links from the Save Tribe Swimming website.

https://616e0124-2790-47d0-96a7-e87abf76...93332c.pdf

EDIT: I also meant to say that the Swimming website has a "Pledge To Not Donate" list. Interesting that just since its inception on October 7 it already had more than 470 names. That is a lot of money lost to the College.

(10-06-2020 03:21 PM)Zorch Wrote:  I saw a spreadsheet on the Tribe Athletics site that shows the fundraising history, by sport, of the Tribe Club for the last seven years. It is called "Tribe Club Fundraising History (7 Years)" at this link:

https://tribeathletics.com/sports/2020/9...px?id=1869

It is interesting to note several things about the spreadsheet. First, it separates all men's and women's sports except for swimming and golf where they are combined. So, of the 17 different entries on the sheet, 13 of them suffered drops in Tribe Club giving between 2019 and 2020. Some of those drops were quite large which I wlll highlight below. However, of the 4 that saw gains in giving, 3 of them were Swimming, Men's Gymnastics, and Women's Gymnastics (the fourth was Women's Basketball). WBB went up only $1,715.76 (2%). Swimming went up $58,993.47 (44.6%!). MGym went up $25,870.49 (27.5%) and WGym went up $19,731.43 (91.7%).

Football went down $277K (39%), MBB went down $254K (61.6%). Baseball and MSoc also had large drops.

The point is: hopefully the new AD will look at this and realize that since only 4 sports had increased their donations in the last year that maybe cutting 3 of those 4 sports was not such a great idea !!

Not surprising. Swimming and gymnastics knew this was a possibility for years.

Yeah, and they did something about it. If football and basketball supporters were to step forward and cover the equivalent deficits in their sports then perhaps the administration wouldn't be looking to make up the difference by stealing endowments and cutting sports? Just asking.

Funny. The structure of ticketing/seat licenses/donations has a little to do with the decrease in donations only. The swimming tickets didn’t really take any of that money away from donations I’m pretty sure. But most I would say has to do with the whiny fans that still have their ball that they took home cause that mean old woman got rid of two coaches and replaced them with two coaches that she felt would do a better job. The William and Mary way evidently. Make sure a decision doesn’t work out by not giving it a chance to work. It’s disgusting really.
10-10-2020 07:23 PM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #51
RE: Introduction to New Interim AD Martin
(10-10-2020 07:23 PM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  
(10-10-2020 04:32 PM)Zorch Wrote:  
(10-10-2020 02:27 PM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  
(10-10-2020 11:38 AM)Zorch Wrote:  
(10-09-2020 05:01 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  Cynically, I'm not sure that's enough money to make a difference. Like our Tribe Club coffers weren't overflowing because of our men's gymnastics team. If "Save the Tribe 7" wants to hit the AD in the wallet I think the department would respond by scaling down further and putting together a skeleton list of sports that still have donors. I don't see that as an outcome anyone really wants.

I think that you would be surprised by how much the "lesser" sports contribute to the Tribe Club. MGym gave $120K this year, ranking it fourth among sports. Swimming gave $191K (exceeded only by Football's $433K). Men's Track was fifth with $109K. I highlighted these numbers in a post in the "W&M Drops Seven Sports" thread and I have inserted it below.

Meanwhile, here are two good links. The first is "Cutting NCAA Sports Saves A Buck, But Costly to Schools, Athletes" by nationally famous and highly regarded Christine Brennan. The closing paragraphs are great:

"At William & Mary, though, the university community has risen up for a fierce fight to save the 118 athletes and 13 coaches affected by the elimination of the seven sports. The athletic director is gone, while alumni from those sports are aggressively campaigning for the programs’ reinstatement.

In other words, the athlete alums are the very people William & Mary should have known they would be: totally engaged, looking out for their school, fighting for those who came after them, the kind of people they should never want to lose."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/co...5909358002

The second is an email sent to all the honchos from an alumnus named Roger Crook. He thoroughly dissects and disembowels the presentation that Jeremy Martin just gave. Since Crook sent his email on 9/29, I am rather shocked that Martin went ahead and presented it. I got both of these links from the Save Tribe Swimming website.

https://616e0124-2790-47d0-96a7-e87abf76...93332c.pdf

EDIT: I also meant to say that the Swimming website has a "Pledge To Not Donate" list. Interesting that just since its inception on October 7 it already had more than 470 names. That is a lot of money lost to the College.

(10-06-2020 03:21 PM)Zorch Wrote:  I saw a spreadsheet on the Tribe Athletics site that shows the fundraising history, by sport, of the Tribe Club for the last seven years. It is called "Tribe Club Fundraising History (7 Years)" at this link:

https://tribeathletics.com/sports/2020/9...px?id=1869

It is interesting to note several things about the spreadsheet. First, it separates all men's and women's sports except for swimming and golf where they are combined. So, of the 17 different entries on the sheet, 13 of them suffered drops in Tribe Club giving between 2019 and 2020. Some of those drops were quite large which I wlll highlight below. However, of the 4 that saw gains in giving, 3 of them were Swimming, Men's Gymnastics, and Women's Gymnastics (the fourth was Women's Basketball). WBB went up only $1,715.76 (2%). Swimming went up $58,993.47 (44.6%!). MGym went up $25,870.49 (27.5%) and WGym went up $19,731.43 (91.7%).

Football went down $277K (39%), MBB went down $254K (61.6%). Baseball and MSoc also had large drops.

The point is: hopefully the new AD will look at this and realize that since only 4 sports had increased their donations in the last year that maybe cutting 3 of those 4 sports was not such a great idea !!

Not surprising. Swimming and gymnastics knew this was a possibility for years.

Yeah, and they did something about it. If football and basketball supporters were to step forward and cover the equivalent deficits in their sports then perhaps the administration wouldn't be looking to make up the difference by stealing endowments and cutting sports? Just asking.

Funny. The structure of ticketing/seat licenses/donations has a little to do with the decrease in donations only. The swimming tickets didn’t really take any of that money away from donations I’m pretty sure. But most I would say has to do with the whiny fans that still have their ball that they took home cause that mean old woman got rid of two coaches and replaced them with two coaches that she felt would do a better job. The William and Mary way evidently. Make sure a decision doesn’t work out by not giving it a chance to work. It’s disgusting really.
I appreciate the comedic value, but you're very bitter and taking this way too personally. Suggest you enjoy your weekend and take a break from this very upsetting forum.

You're defending someone who has a problem with honesty and integrity. Do remember that.

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(This post was last modified: 10-10-2020 09:29 PM by Tribal.)
10-10-2020 09:22 PM
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Post: #52
RE: Introduction to New Interim AD Martin
(10-10-2020 09:22 PM)Tribal Wrote:  
(10-10-2020 07:23 PM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  Funny. The structure of ticketing/seat licenses/donations has a little to do with the decrease in donations only. The swimming tickets didn’t really take any of that money away from donations I’m pretty sure. But most I would say has to do with the whiny fans that still have their ball that they took home cause that mean old woman got rid of two coaches and replaced them with two coaches that she felt would do a better job. The William and Mary way evidently. Make sure a decision doesn’t work out by not giving it a chance to work. It’s disgusting really.
I appreciate the comedic value, but you're very bitter and taking this way too personally. Suggest you enjoy your weekend and take a break from this very upsetting forum.

You're defending someone who has a problem with honesty and integrity. Do remember that.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

I don't read that as 3455 defending Huge. I take it as criticizing people who stopped donating. Not that I'm defending that criticism, but you can both disagree with Huge and people who stopped donating. I'm not really interested in going back to the argument of how someone would show they're unhappy in a way the athletic department would listen except by pulling donations; I think that's a valid point. But I don't see anyone defending Huge at all.
10-10-2020 10:33 PM
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NC Tribe Offline
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Post: #53
RE: Introduction to New Interim AD Martin
I started giving money to the W&M men's basketball program in the last few years of coach Shaver's tenure specifically because I thought that he and his staff had a chance to do some really exciting things with the program. When the AD and the administration differed with my opinion and decided that they had enough money to pay for coach Shaver to not coach for 5 years and hire another coach, I realized they didn't need my money after all. If this makes me a "whiney fan" so be it.
10-11-2020 06:28 AM
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Tribe3455 Offline
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Post: #54
RE: Introduction to New Interim AD Martin
(10-10-2020 10:33 PM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  
(10-10-2020 09:22 PM)Tribal Wrote:  
(10-10-2020 07:23 PM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  Funny. The structure of ticketing/seat licenses/donations has a little to do with the decrease in donations only. The swimming tickets didn’t really take any of that money away from donations I’m pretty sure. But most I would say has to do with the whiny fans that still have their ball that they took home cause that mean old woman got rid of two coaches and replaced them with two coaches that she felt would do a better job. The William and Mary way evidently. Make sure a decision doesn’t work out by not giving it a chance to work. It’s disgusting really.
I appreciate the comedic value, but you're very bitter and taking this way too personally. Suggest you enjoy your weekend and take a break from this very upsetting forum.

You're defending someone who has a problem with honesty and integrity. Do remember that.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

I don't read that as 3455 defending Huge. I take it as criticizing people who stopped donating. Not that I'm defending that criticism, but you can both disagree with Huge and people who stopped donating. I'm not really interested in going back to the argument of how someone would show they're unhappy in a way the athletic department would listen except by pulling donations; I think that's a valid point. But I don't see anyone defending Huge at all.

Correct. And my weekend has been fantastic.
10-11-2020 08:44 AM
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Choirboy Offline
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Post: #55
RE: Introduction to New Interim AD Martin
[quote='Zorch' pid='17033507' daIteline='1602347907']
(10-09-2020 05:01 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  
(10-09-2020 04:54 PM)Zorch Wrote:  I think that if the 7 sports are ultimately dropped that the Tribe Club can forget about ever getting a single dime from followers of any of the 7 sports (and even from followers of other sports who wonder if they will be next). So, will the increased giving (if any) of the football/basketball crowd be enough to offset the loss of donations from fans of those other sports?

Cynically, I'm not sure that's enough money to make a difference. Like our Tribe Club coffers weren't overflowing because of our men's gymnastics team. If "Save the Tribe 7" wants to hit the AD in the wallet I think the department would respond by scaling down further and putting together a skeleton list of sports that still have donors. I don't see that as an outcome anyone really wants.

I think that you would be surprised by how much the "lesser" sports contribute to the Tribe Club. MGym gave $120K this year, ranking it fourth among sports. Swimming gave $191K (exceeded only by Football's $433K). Men's Track was fifth with $109K. I highlighted these numbers in a post in the "W&M Drops Seven Sports" thread and I have inserted it below.

Meanwhile, here are two good links. The first is "Cutting NCAA Sports Saves A Buck, But Costly to Schools, Athletes" by nationally famous and highly regarded Christine Brennan. The closing paragraphs are great:

"At William & Mary, though, the university community has risen up for a fierce fight to save the 118 athletes and 13 coaches affected by the elimination of the seven sports. The athletic director is gone, while alumni from those sports are aggressively campaigning for the programs’ reinstatement.

In other words, the athlete alums are the very people William & Mary should have known they would be: totally engaged, looking out for their school, fighting for those who came after them, the kind of people they should never want to lose."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/co...5909358002

The second is an email sent to all the honchos from an alumnus named Roger Crook. He thoroughly dissects and disembowels the presentation that Jeremy Martin just gave. Since Crook sent his email on 9/29, I am rather shocked that Martin went ahead and presented it. I got both of these links from the Save Tribe Swimming website.

https://616e0124-2790-47d0-96a7-e87abf76...93332c.pdf

EDIT: I also meant to say that the Swimming website has a "Pledge To Not Donate" list. Interesting that just since its inception on October 7 it already had more than 470 names. That is a lot of money lost to the College.

(10-06-2020 03:21 PM)Zorch Wrote:  I saw a spreadsheet on the Tribe Athletics site that shows the fundraising history, by sport, of the Tribe Club for the last seven years. It is called "Tribe Club Fundraising History (7 Years)" at this link:

https://tribeathletics.com/sports/2020/9...px?id=1869

It is interesting to note several things about the spreadsheet. First, it separates all men's and women's sports except for swimming and golf where they are combined. So, of the 17 different entries on the sheet, 13 of them suffered drops in Tribe Club giving between 2019 and 2020. Some of those drops were quite large which I wlll highlight below. However, of the 4 that saw gains in giving, 3 of them were Swimming, Men's Gymnastics, and Women's Gymnastics (the fourth was Women's Basketball). WBB went up only $1,715.76 (2%). Swimming went up $58,993.47 (44.6%!). MGym went up $25,870.49 (27.5%) and WGym went up $19,731.43 (91.7%).

Football went down $277K (39%), MBB went down $254K (61.6%). Baseball and MSoc also had large drops.

The point is: hopefully the new AD will look at this and realize that since only 4 sports had increased their donations in the last year that maybe cutting 3 of those 4 sports was not such a great idea !!
[/quote]

I have three questions that I think need to be answered: 1) You have estimated how much money would be saved by the elimination of the 7 teams, what is your estimate of the loss of revenue to the athletic department due to the displeasure of donors with your proposed action and what is the basis of your estimate? 2) I believe there are approximately 5,000 alumni who participated in the 7 sports to be eliminated, what is your estimate of the loss revenue on the academic side from them as a result of the cutting of the seven teams ? How much of that loss is on a per year basis and how much is from planned giving that will not happen? 3) As a way of increasing donations immediately why not announce that when fans are again allowed in Kaplan Arena, you will have a Tony Shaver Day celebrating his many years of service to the College, his being the coach with the most wins in school history and his being a great ambassador for the College ? This costs nothing to do and might result in substantial contributions. This would have been impossible with the past Athletic Director.
10-11-2020 12:42 PM
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Tribe3455 Offline
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Post: #56
RE: Introduction to New Interim AD Martin
(10-11-2020 12:42 PM)Choirboy Wrote:  [quote='Zorch' pid='17033507' daIteline='1602347907']
(10-09-2020 05:01 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  
(10-09-2020 04:54 PM)Zorch Wrote:  I think that if the 7 sports are ultimately dropped that the Tribe Club can forget about ever getting a single dime from followers of any of the 7 sports (and even from followers of other sports who wonder if they will be next). So, will the increased giving (if any) of the football/basketball crowd be enough to offset the loss of donations from fans of those other sports?

Cynically, I'm not sure that's enough money to make a difference. Like our Tribe Club coffers weren't overflowing because of our men's gymnastics team. If "Save the Tribe 7" wants to hit the AD in the wallet I think the department would respond by scaling down further and putting together a skeleton list of sports that still have donors. I don't see that as an outcome anyone really wants.

I think that you would be surprised by how much the "lesser" sports contribute to the Tribe Club. MGym gave $120K this year, ranking it fourth among sports. Swimming gave $191K (exceeded only by Football's $433K). Men's Track was fifth with $109K. I highlighted these numbers in a post in the "W&M Drops Seven Sports" thread and I have inserted it below.

Meanwhile, here are two good links. The first is "Cutting NCAA Sports Saves A Buck, But Costly to Schools, Athletes" by nationally famous and highly regarded Christine Brennan. The closing paragraphs are great:

"At William & Mary, though, the university community has risen up for a fierce fight to save the 118 athletes and 13 coaches affected by the elimination of the seven sports. The athletic director is gone, while alumni from those sports are aggressively campaigning for the programs’ reinstatement.

In other words, the athlete alums are the very people William & Mary should have known they would be: totally engaged, looking out for their school, fighting for those who came after them, the kind of people they should never want to lose."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/co...5909358002

The second is an email sent to all the honchos from an alumnus named Roger Crook. He thoroughly dissects and disembowels the presentation that Jeremy Martin just gave. Since Crook sent his email on 9/29, I am rather shocked that Martin went ahead and presented it. I got both of these links from the Save Tribe Swimming website.

https://616e0124-2790-47d0-96a7-e87abf76...93332c.pdf

EDIT: I also meant to say that the Swimming website has a "Pledge To Not Donate" list. Interesting that just since its inception on October 7 it already had more than 470 names. That is a lot of money lost to the College.

(10-06-2020 03:21 PM)Zorch Wrote:  I saw a spreadsheet on the Tribe Athletics site that shows the fundraising history, by sport, of the Tribe Club for the last seven years. It is called "Tribe Club Fundraising History (7 Years)" at this link:

https://tribeathletics.com/sports/2020/9...px?id=1869

It is interesting to note several things about the spreadsheet. First, it separates all men's and women's sports except for swimming and golf where they are combined. So, of the 17 different entries on the sheet, 13 of them suffered drops in Tribe Club giving between 2019 and 2020. Some of those drops were quite large which I wlll highlight below. However, of the 4 that saw gains in giving, 3 of them were Swimming, Men's Gymnastics, and Women's Gymnastics (the fourth was Women's Basketball). WBB went up only $1,715.76 (2%). Swimming went up $58,993.47 (44.6%!). MGym went up $25,870.49 (27.5%) and WGym went up $19,731.43 (91.7%).

Football went down $277K (39%), MBB went down $254K (61.6%). Baseball and MSoc also had large drops.

The point is: hopefully the new AD will look at this and realize that since only 4 sports had increased their donations in the last year that maybe cutting 3 of those 4 sports was not such a great idea !!

I have three questions that I think need to be answered: 1) You have estimated how much money would be saved by the elimination of the 7 teams, what is your estimate of the loss of revenue to the athletic department due to the displeasure of donors with your proposed action and what is the basis of your estimate? 2) I believe there are approximately 5,000 alumni who participated in the 7 sports to be eliminated, what is your estimate of the loss revenue on the academic side from them as a result of the cutting of the seven teams ? How much of that loss is on a per year basis and how much is from planned giving that will not happen? 3) As a way of increasing donations immediately why not announce that when fans are again allowed in Kaplan Arena, you will have a Tony Shaver Day celebrating his many years of service to the College, his being the coach with the most wins in school history and his being a great ambassador for the College ? This costs nothing to do and might result in substantial contributions. This would have been impossible with the past Athletic Director.
[/quote]

Number 3 is a great idea.

Impossible that there are 5000 living alums from those sports. There are what, 113 on the rosters at the moment? Let’s stretch that to 200 and be really generous. That’s 50 per class. It would take 100 years to produce 5000 alums.
10-11-2020 01:05 PM
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mrjoolius Online
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Post: #57
RE: Introduction to New Interim AD Martin
(10-11-2020 12:42 PM)Choirboy Wrote:  3) As a way of increasing donations immediately why not announce that when fans are again allowed in Kaplan Arena, you will have a Tony Shaver Day celebrating his many years of service to the College, his being the coach with the most wins in school history and his being a great ambassador for the College ? This costs nothing to do and might result in substantial contributions. This would have been impossible with the past Athletic Director.

You really think this is a good idea going into Fischer's 2nd season? I love Shaver and what he accomplished here. Doing any kind of celebration this soon seems, for lack of a better term, wrong. I doubt Shaver would even want something like this to happen because it just creates an awkward scene for any coach trying to build his own legacy.
I'm 100% about honoring Shaver and his legacy to Tribe basketball. Let Dane have a chance to build his own program. Let the remaining Shaver recruits graduate. Let Shaver officially retire from coaching. The focus needs to be looking forward IMO. it isn't even something that should be considered for at least 5 years.
(This post was last modified: 10-11-2020 01:48 PM by mrjoolius.)
10-11-2020 01:14 PM
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WMInTheBurg Offline
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Post: #58
RE: Introduction to New Interim AD Martin
(10-11-2020 12:42 PM)Choirboy Wrote:  The second is an email sent to all the honchos from an alumnus named Roger Crook. He thoroughly dissects and disembowels the presentation that Jeremy Martin just gave. Since Crook sent his email on 9/29, I am rather shocked that Martin went ahead and presented it. I got both of these links from the Save Tribe Swimming website.

https://616e0124-2790-47d0-96a7-e87abf76...93332c.pdf

EDIT: I also meant to say that the Swimming website has a "Pledge To Not Donate" list. Interesting that just since its inception on October 7 it already had more than 470 names. That is a lot of money lost to the College.

I don't think the Crook PDF will have the effect you think it does. It does a good job of presenting the position of the sports that were cut. I don't think it brings any new information to light. If that's the case, then I have a hard time seeing it cause the administration to reverse course.
10-11-2020 04:50 PM
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Tribe32 Offline
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Post: #59
RE: Introduction to New Interim AD Martin
I would like to know where the Tribe Club reserve balance was used for.

We either have mismanagement or desperation.
10-11-2020 06:10 PM
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bubbadog57 Offline
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Post: #60
RE: Introduction to New Interim AD Martin
Do any of these figures include the 41 million donated for the Kaplan renovation?
10-12-2020 05:06 AM
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