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Huge Forced Resignation
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zablenoise Offline
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Post: #101
RE: Huge Forced Resignation
(10-07-2020 03:12 PM)bubbadog57 Wrote:  Let's simply see what happens tomorrow.
What's happening tomorrow?

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10-07-2020 03:49 PM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #102
RE: Huge Forced Resignation
3455-

The problem which nobody seems to want to research, and which was alluded to earlier in this thread by W&MintheBurg, there will definitely not be enough resources if sports are cut ... because donations are going to / have dried up. That will offset any designed revenue increases / expense savings.

Title IX is the issue, IMO, and I would like to see sports added .... women’s crew and softball, while the Tribe 7 are retained. I think that solves all issues.

The AD announces the reasonable costs of everything (and not fully-funded either), with a bump for football and hoops, and puts it to the community- put up or shut up.
(This post was last modified: 10-07-2020 03:54 PM by nj alum.)
10-07-2020 03:52 PM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #103
RE: Huge Forced Resignation
(10-07-2020 03:49 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  
(10-07-2020 03:12 PM)bubbadog57 Wrote:  Let's simply see what happens tomorrow.
What's happening tomorrow?

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More talk.

Action doesn’t happen until the beginning of November.
10-07-2020 03:52 PM
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Rocco Offline
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Post: #104
RE: Huge Forced Resignation
(10-07-2020 03:34 PM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  
(10-07-2020 01:45 PM)nj alum Wrote:  
(10-07-2020 01:13 PM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  But many still believe cuts needed to be made. We STILL have a large number of sports.

I believe that a large number of sports is a strength, not a weakness.

Why do many think that sports team cuts need to be made?

Like I said. We still have a large number of sports. I find it a strength as well.

I think sports teams needed to be cut because there were not enough resources to go around. And that's not completely a financial decision even though money plays a part in all of it. It is personnel.

Guarantee you EVERY coach of each cut sport has asked for more of everything over the past three years. Even though they have done without, they have wanted more and asked for more. Honestly, any decent coach would do that. One of the former swimmer/models issues was Huge not taking seriously a swimming facility. All while bemoaning the "arms race" that has put W&M in a deficit. So don't act like the status quo was what they would have accepted. At some point the decision was made that 23 sports asking for more/maybe needing more was not worth dealing with. Huge executed it poorly but the cuts could make the department stronger.

W&M fans have champagne tastes on a beer budget.
10-07-2020 04:02 PM
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Tribe32 Offline
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Post: #105
RE: Huge Forced Resignation
My personal beef with how things have been run for a real long time (back into the 70s) is that there isn't enough focus on the top line. Cutting costs will get you but so far and then you are compromised. If it isn't from donors it has to be TV revenue, ticket sales, etc. We're kind of stuck in no man's land with covid. If we don't see relief from that, we're going to be cutting more than 7 sports.
10-07-2020 04:32 PM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #106
Huge Forced Resignation
Posted 30 minutes ago and hardly worth reading.


W&M, athletic director Samantha Huge part ways



https://richmond.com/sports/college/will...ssion=true



(Virginia Pilot)

Frankenberry: William & Mary and AD rightly parted ways. But challenges still are ahead for eliminated sports



https://www.pilotonline.com/sports/colum...ssion=true


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(This post was last modified: 10-07-2020 07:14 PM by Tribal.)
10-07-2020 07:09 PM
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Tribe3455 Offline
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Post: #107
RE: Huge Forced Resignation
(10-07-2020 03:52 PM)nj alum Wrote:  3455-

The problem which nobody seems to want to research, and which was alluded to earlier in this thread by W&MintheBurg, there will definitely not be enough resources if sports are cut ... because donations are going to / have dried up. That will offset any designed revenue increases / expense savings.

Title IX is the issue, IMO, and I would like to see sports added .... women’s crew and softball, while the Tribe 7 are retained. I think that solves all issues.

The AD announces the reasonable costs of everything (and not fully-funded either), with a bump for football and hoops, and puts it to the community- put up or shut up.

Yes, let’s add more. Water polo in the new pool would be great!!
10-07-2020 07:41 PM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #108
RE: Huge Forced Resignation
(10-07-2020 07:41 PM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  
(10-07-2020 03:52 PM)nj alum Wrote:  3455-

The problem which nobody seems to want to research, and which was alluded to earlier in this thread by W&MintheBurg, there will definitely not be enough resources if sports are cut ... because donations are going to / have dried up. That will offset any designed revenue increases / expense savings.

Title IX is the issue, IMO, and I would like to see sports added .... women’s crew and softball, while the Tribe 7 are retained. I think that solves all issues.

The AD announces the reasonable costs of everything (and not fully-funded either), with a bump for football and hoops, and puts it to the community- put up or shut up.

Yes, let’s add more. Water polo in the new pool would be great!!

Did you work for the Pictor Group? Because the unseriousness of that comment rivals what we have been fed.

Time for serious people, and your 15 minutes are up (I love that line!).
10-07-2020 07:56 PM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #109
RE: Huge Forced Resignation
If Title IX is the elephant in the room, and if football is causing an imbalance, women’s crew has to be considered.

From Wikipedia:

“Universities that have never had a men's team have added women's rowing to the athletic department and are providing funding and athletic scholarships for the expensive and demanding sport, contributing to a noticeable increase in the success and competitiveness of many collegiate women's rowing teams. This, in part, is to comply with Title IX; many of the football powers use women's rowing to help balance out the large number of scholarships awarded to male football players. As a result, many women's college rowers have not previously competed at high school or for a club team.[14]”

How many scholarships?

https://www.ncsasports.org/womens-rowing/scholarships

“How many women’s rowing scholarships are there?
Athletic scholarships for women’s rowing are found at the NCAA Division 1 and Division 2 levels and break down like this:

Division 1
89 women’s rowing teams
Up to 20 full scholarships per team
An average of 47 athletes per team”

If W&M is serious about boosting football, sustainability and Title IX, women’s crew has to be on the table.
(This post was last modified: 10-07-2020 08:33 PM by nj alum.)
10-07-2020 08:33 PM
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soccerguy315 Offline
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Post: #110
RE: Huge Forced Resignation
Surely we are not going to go from cutting 7 sports to keeping all 7 and also adding another one or two...
10-07-2020 09:10 PM
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Zorch Offline
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Post: #111
RE: Huge Forced Resignation
I’m on record as not wanting to cut any sports; however, I don’t see the need to add any sports either. I would like to see a detailed analysis on exactly where we stand on male/female ratios for Title IX. If the gap is small (and, presumably, to the detriment of females) then perhaps it could be rectified by simply adding some more sprinters/middle distance/ long distance runners/swimmers and maybe just one or two players in the other women’s sports. They don’t have to be on scholarship to be counted as participants.
10-07-2020 09:24 PM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #112
RE: Huge Forced Resignation
(10-07-2020 09:10 PM)soccerguy315 Wrote:  Surely we are not going to go from cutting 7 sports to keeping all 7 and also adding another one or two...

If the pro-Shaver donors who pulled their donations now return, the revenue side of the ledger has improved overnight, and it may no longer be necessary to cut the Tribe 7. Changed circumstances do that.

This, combined with the fund-raising done by the Tribe 7 in the past weeks, clearly demonstrate changed circumstances.

Is it enough? Not privy to those numbers.

Also, while it would be my preference in a perfect world to not cut any teams, can’t W&M cut one and add one already at club status for zero loss of sports teams and net pick up of schollies, participants, and other funding to satisfy Title IX?
10-08-2020 01:53 AM
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TDenverFan Offline
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Post: #113
RE: Huge Forced Resignation
Rowe is a very high level ultimate frisbee player and coach, maybe we can bump that up?
10-08-2020 09:15 AM
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WMInTheBurg Offline
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Post: #114
RE: Huge Forced Resignation
(10-08-2020 09:15 AM)TDenverFan Wrote:  Rowe is a very high level ultimate frisbee player and coach, maybe we can bump that up?

As much as that would be great leveraging of her skills there, ultimate frisbee is not yet recognized by the NCAA. There is a separate governing body that covers high school all the way to the national team.
10-08-2020 09:30 AM
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Old tribe Offline
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Post: #115
RE: Huge Forced Resignation
(10-07-2020 09:24 PM)Zorch Wrote:  I’m on record as not wanting to cut any sports; however, I don’t see the need to add any sports either. I would like to see a detailed analysis on exactly where we stand on male/female ratios for Title IX. If the gap is small (and, presumably, to the detriment of females) then perhaps it could be rectified by simply adding some more sprinters/middle distance/ long distance runners/swimmers and maybe just one or two players in the other women’s sports. They don’t have to be on scholarship to be counted as participants.

Here is what the EADA shows (the data used to analyze Title IX) with respect to male/female enrollment and male/female athletics participation.

Enrollment

Men: 2,662

Women: 3,635

42.3% male/57.7% female

Varsity Athletics Participation (prior to cuts)

Men: 344

Women: 296

53.75% men/46.25% women.

So there is a variance of 11.45% between enrollment and participation.

As I stated in a prior post, Title IX is a three part test (and all 3 parts need to be met to be in compliance). But when most people talk about Title IX they talk about the first test: whether a schools is providing equal athletics participation opportunities to its male and female students.

There are 3 ways you can meet this first prong. The safest way (as a result, it's called the safe harbor) is to show you have a variance of 2% or less between your enrollment and your athletics participation opportunities. Before the cuts, W&M was well outside of this 2% range. As shown above, the variance is 11.45%. This is a historical issue, not something Huge created (as I've seen some claim), based on W&M having majority female enrollment and having a football team.

After the cuts, W&M would have 220 male athletes and 235 female athletes, putting it closer to the 2% variance but still not within it. The variance drops to 6.1% in this scenario (51.6% female athletes/48.4% male athletes versus 57.7% enrollment/42.3% male enrollment).

But as I also said in my earlier post, W&M can show it's meeting this first prong of Title IX by demonstrating it has a history of adding women's sports. This is a fact intensive, subjective inquiry and W&M could satisfy the first prong of Title IX under this inquiry. Especially with the cuts, since it is reducing its variance range.
10-08-2020 09:44 AM
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TDenverFan Offline
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Post: #116
RE: Huge Forced Resignation
(10-08-2020 09:30 AM)WMInTheBurg Wrote:  
(10-08-2020 09:15 AM)TDenverFan Wrote:  Rowe is a very high level ultimate frisbee player and coach, maybe we can bump that up?

As much as that would be great leveraging of her skills there, ultimate frisbee is not yet recognized by the NCAA. There is a separate governing body that covers high school all the way to the national team.

Yep, my comment was in jest. I played on the club team throughout college actually, and met Rowe on account of that. Even if it was an option on the table I don't think the teams would really even advocate for varsity sports status (Though the men's team did finish 13th in the country in 2018).
10-08-2020 09:52 AM
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Zorch Offline
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Post: #117
RE: Huge Forced Resignation
(10-08-2020 09:44 AM)Old tribe Wrote:  
(10-07-2020 09:24 PM)Zorch Wrote:  I’m on record as not wanting to cut any sports; however, I don’t see the need to add any sports either. I would like to see a detailed analysis on exactly where we stand on male/female ratios for Title IX. If the gap is small (and, presumably, to the detriment of females) then perhaps it could be rectified by simply adding some more sprinters/middle distance/ long distance runners/swimmers and maybe just one or two players in the other women’s sports. They don’t have to be on scholarship to be counted as participants.

Here is what the EADA shows (the data used to analyze Title IX) with respect to male/female enrollment and male/female athletics participation.

Enrollment

Men: 2,662

Women: 3,635

42.3% male/57.7% female

Varsity Athletics Participation (prior to cuts)

Men: 344

Women: 296

53.75% men/46.25% women.

So there is a variance of 11.45% between enrollment and participation.

As I stated in a prior post, Title IX is a three part test (and all 3 parts need to be met to be in compliance). But when most people talk about Title IX they talk about the first test: whether a schools is providing equal athletics participation opportunities to its male and female students.

There are 3 ways you can meet this first prong. The safest way (as a result, it's called the safe harbor) is to show you have a variance of 2% or less between your enrollment and your athletics participation opportunities. Before the cuts, W&M was well outside of this 2% range. As shown above, the variance is 11.45%. This is a historical issue, not something Huge created (as I've seen some claim), based on W&M having majority female enrollment and having a football team.

After the cuts, W&M would have 220 male athletes and 235 female athletes, putting it closer to the 2% variance but still not within it. The variance drops to 6.1% in this scenario (51.6% female athletes/48.4% male athletes versus 57.7% enrollment/42.3% male enrollment).

But as I also said in my earlier post, W&M can show it's meeting this first prong of Title IX by demonstrating it has a history of adding women's sports. This is a fact intensive, subjective inquiry and W&M could satisfy the first prong of Title IX under this inquiry. Especially with the cuts, since it is reducing its variance range.

A deeper dive into some of the numbers showed some very interesting trends. First, though, some housekeeping. You (Old tribe) have written several times that a school has to pass all 3 tests in order to be Title IX compliant. During these discussions I read an article saying that a school has to pass only one of the three tests to be compliant. Your statement about Test 1 being the "safe harbor" would actually seem to corroborate that (that is, in your scenario of needing all three then how would passing only one give you a safe harbor? It would give you safe harbor if you needed only one.).

Okay, to the numbers. The data quoted above (which is from the W&M site) is for the 2018-2019 school year. I have found all the numbers for the current year except for one crucial detail. I know that the number of current undergrads is 6256 but I don't know how many of them are female. (Interesting that this number is not found on the W&M site, even when I search for "number of female students"). If anyone has that number then please provide it.

In 2018-2019 the number of athletes was 640 (male and female). Note that this number includes duplicates. For example, indoor track is counted as one sport and so is outdoor track and so is cross country. However, the athletes running indoor track are invariably the same people running outdoor track. Also, for the current year, 100% of the cross country team also runs track (this is true for both the men and women). I won't call it hanky-panky or a shell game because I'm sure that the NCAA allows such counting. Just note, however, that the Athletic Department can support two (or three) running sports by awarding just one scholarship. (My daughter ran both indoor and outdoor track and she was only on one partial scholarship).

So, comparing the 2018-2019 numbers to the 2020-2021 counts we see:

Total athletes went down from 640 to 602, a loss of 38 athletes. 15 were men and 23 were women. So, Huge/Martin, if W&M is trying to be in Title IX compliance then why are women's numbers dropping faster than men's? If you look at the unduplicated numbers, it is 510 athletes in 2018-2019 versus 481 in 2020-2021 (a loss of 10 men and 19 women).

Even before the seven sports were dropped, swimming, gymnastics, and track were taking big hits. I attribute this to Huge working on her plan years before she even announced it. Men's Swimming lost 5 slots in those two years while Women's Swimming lost 3 slots. MGym lost 2 slots while WGym lost 5 athletes. Men's Track lost 6 slots. (Meanwhile, Women's Track (sport not dropped) lost 8 athletes. Bad management there; Huge should have been increasing women's track athletes). Volleyball lost 1 spot in those two years. Meanwhile, for comparison, Football stayed the same at 102 slots, Baseball added 1 slot (34 to 35), and MBB lost two slots (16 to 14).

Bottom line: it appears that the dropped sports were being gutted even before the ax fell. It also appears that the department did not do a very good job of trying to ratchet up the number of women athletes. As noted above, the women lost even more athletes than the men during those two years.

If the number of women undergraduates for 2020-2021 is known then Title IX percentages can be calculated.
10-08-2020 12:17 PM
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zablenoise Offline
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Post: #118
RE: Huge Forced Resignation
(10-08-2020 12:17 PM)Zorch Wrote:  A deeper dive into some of the numbers showed some very interesting trends. First, though, some housekeeping. You (Old tribe) have written several times that a school has to pass all 3 tests in order to be Title IX compliant. During these discussions I read an article saying that a school has to pass only one of the three tests to be compliant. Your statement about Test 1 being the "safe harbor" would actually seem to corroborate that (that is, in your scenario of needing all three then how would passing only one give you a safe harbor? It would give you safe harbor if you needed only one.).

Edited to Add:

Nope! I was wrong because IANAL. Go read Old Tribe's post #122.
(This post was last modified: 10-08-2020 02:01 PM by zablenoise.)
10-08-2020 01:06 PM
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Zorch Offline
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Post: #119
RE: Huge Forced Resignation
(10-08-2020 01:06 PM)zablenoise Wrote:  
(10-08-2020 12:17 PM)Zorch Wrote:  A deeper dive into some of the numbers showed some very interesting trends. First, though, some housekeeping. You (Old tribe) have written several times that a school has to pass all 3 tests in order to be Title IX compliant. During these discussions I read an article saying that a school has to pass only one of the three tests to be compliant. Your statement about Test 1 being the "safe harbor" would actually seem to corroborate that (that is, in your scenario of needing all three then how would passing only one give you a safe harbor? It would give you safe harbor if you needed only one.).

I can actually answer this. Title IX has a "three part test" and requires all three parts to be met: 1) substantially proportionality between enrollment and participation in athletics, 2) a history and continuing practice of expanding participation opportunities, and 3) being fully and effectively accommodating. Then, additionally, there are three ways that a school can satisfy the first part of the test. That is where the "safe harbor" comes into play.

Thanks for clarifying!
10-08-2020 01:17 PM
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Tribe3455 Offline
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Post: #120
RE: Huge Forced Resignation
(10-07-2020 07:56 PM)nj alum Wrote:  
(10-07-2020 07:41 PM)Tribe3455 Wrote:  
(10-07-2020 03:52 PM)nj alum Wrote:  3455-

The problem which nobody seems to want to research, and which was alluded to earlier in this thread by W&MintheBurg, there will definitely not be enough resources if sports are cut ... because donations are going to / have dried up. That will offset any designed revenue increases / expense savings.

Title IX is the issue, IMO, and I would like to see sports added .... women’s crew and softball, while the Tribe 7 are retained. I think that solves all issues.

The AD announces the reasonable costs of everything (and not fully-funded either), with a bump for football and hoops, and puts it to the community- put up or shut up.

Yes, let’s add more. Water polo in the new pool would be great!!

Did you work for the Pictor Group? Because the unseriousness of that comment rivals what we have been fed.

Time for serious people, and your 15 minutes are up (I love that line!).

No. I'm a guy. And very serious. Not about water polo. Though it is a great sport. But we don't have the money for the pool.
10-08-2020 01:34 PM
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