(10-02-2020 09:24 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(10-02-2020 09:02 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Of course you could explain what position of mine is left of left I suppose?

Voting for Ralph Nader instead of Al Gore is pretty much left of left.

As I explained above, that vote was solely to get the Green party to 5% so there would be another voice added to the D and R monopoly.

(10-02-2020 10:08 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(10-02-2020 09:24 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(10-02-2020 09:02 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Of course you could explain what position of mine is left of left I suppose?

Voting for Ralph Nader instead of Al Gore is pretty much left of left.

As I explained above, that vote was solely to get the Green party to 5% so there would be another voice added to the D and R monopoly.

Because the Greens are left of left.

I vote Libertarian for the same reason, except libertarians are left on some issues and right on others. What they actually are is classical liberals. If you were truly independent, you'd be more interested in getting a party that was closer to the center up to the 5%.

(10-02-2020 11:03 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(10-02-2020 10:08 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(10-02-2020 09:24 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(10-02-2020 09:02 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Of course you could explain what position of mine is left of left I suppose?

Voting for Ralph Nader instead of Al Gore is pretty much left of left.

As I explained above, that vote was solely to get the Green party to 5% so there would be another voice added to the D and R monopoly.

Because the Greens are left of left.

I vote Libertarian for the same reason, except libertarians are left on some issues and right on others. What they actually are is classical liberals. If you were truly independent, you'd be more interested in getting a party that was closer to the center up to the 5%.

Dude, that was 20 years ago, and the first election I voted in. I couldn't tell you one tenet of the Green Party platform then...or even now for that matter.

Regardless, my views have certainly changed quite a bit since then on a number of topics.

(10-02-2020 11:17 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(10-02-2020 11:03 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(10-02-2020 10:08 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(10-02-2020 09:24 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(10-02-2020 09:02 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Of course you could explain what position of mine is left of left I suppose?

Voting for Ralph Nader instead of Al Gore is pretty much left of left.

As I explained above, that vote was solely to get the Green party to 5% so there would be another voice added to the D and R monopoly.

Because the Greens are left of left.
I vote Libertarian for the same reason, except libertarians are left on some issues and right on others. What they actually are is classical liberals. If you were truly independent, you'd be more interested in getting a party that was closer to the center up to the 5%.

Dude, that was 20 years ago, and the first election I voted in. I couldn't tell you one tenet of the Green Party platform then...or even now for that matter.
Regardless, my views have certainly changed quite a bit since then on a number of topics.

All we have to go on is the character you portray on here. And that is left of left. If you want to convey a different impression, do different things. If you want to establish 2nd Amendment bona fides, there are plenty of 2nd Amendment threads on here where you could post. If you wanted to establish your low tax/small government bona fides, there are plenty of taxing and spending threads on here where you could post.

(10-02-2020 11:24 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(10-02-2020 11:17 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(10-02-2020 11:03 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(10-02-2020 10:08 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  

(10-02-2020 09:24 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  Voting for Ralph Nader instead of Al Gore is pretty much left of left.

As I explained above, that vote was solely to get the Green party to 5% so there would be another voice added to the D and R monopoly.

Because the Greens are left of left.
I vote Libertarian for the same reason, except libertarians are left on some issues and right on others. What they actually are is classical liberals. If you were truly independent, you'd be more interested in getting a party that was closer to the center up to the 5%.

Dude, that was 20 years ago, and the first election I voted in. I couldn't tell you one tenet of the Green Party platform then...or even now for that matter.
Regardless, my views have certainly changed quite a bit since then on a number of topics.

All we have to go on is the character you portray on here. And that is left of left. If you want to convey a different impression, do different things. If you want to establish 2nd Amendment bona fides, there are plenty of 2nd Amendment threads on here where you could post. If you wanted to establish your low tax/small government bona fides, there are plenty of taxing and spending threads on here where you could post.

Complete hogwash. You can't cite one position of mine that I'm left of left on. Not one.

(10-02-2020 11:28 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Complete hogwash. You can't cite one position of mine that I'm left of left on. Not one.

You voted for Ralph Nader. That's pretty left of left. OK, you did it because you wanted the Greens to get to 5%. That's pretty left of left.

Your comments on issues here have been pretty consistently hard left. In fact, I have a hard time recalling any post where you took anything but the leftmost position. You say you are pro-2nd-Amendment, but I don't see you posting pro-2nd-Amendment stuff to threads on the subject of gun control.

I don't really care what you call yourself. Knock yourself out calling yourself center-left. But your posts don't say that.

(10-02-2020 11:32 AM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(10-02-2020 11:28 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Complete hogwash. You can't cite one position of mine that I'm left of left on. Not one.

You voted for Ralph Nader. That's pretty left of left. OK, you did it because you wanted the Greens to get to 5%. That's pretty left of left.

Your comments on issues here have been pretty consistently hard left. In fact, I have a hard time recalling any post where you took anything but the leftmost position. You say you are pro-2nd-Amendment, but I don't see you posting pro-2nd-Amendment stuff to threads on the subject of gun control.

I don't really care what you call yourself. Knock yourself out calling yourself center-left. But your posts don't say that.

So, you can't name one position. What is it with guys like you and trump? Just ******* say it!

(10-02-2020 11:38 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  So, you can't name one position. What is it with guys like you and trump? Just ******* say it!

I actually named a couple. Voting for Ralph Nader and wanting the Greens to get to 5%. Those are both left of left.

You have voted consistently left, or left of left, for 20 years. That's pretty all it takes to establish left of left.

I'm retired Navy. I spent 22 years fighting communism. I didn't do that to come home and surrender.

Tom, call yourself whatever tickles your soul. Knock yourself out.

Just don't expect me to buy your "center left" routine until you start to show some right-of-center positions. You claim to have them. So speak up on them when the opportunity arises. Hell, if you do, you will probably be labeled a right-winger by some on here.

(10-02-2020 12:13 PM)Owl 69/70/75 Wrote:  

(10-02-2020 11:38 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  So, you can't name one position. What is it with guys like you and trump? Just ******* say it!

I actually named a couple. Voting for Ralph Nader and wanting the Greens to get to 5%. Those are both left of left.

You have voted consistently left, or left of left, for 20 years. That's pretty all it takes to establish left of left.

I'm retired Navy. I spent 22 years fighting communism. I didn't do that to come home and surrender.

Lulz. Pathetic, but typical.

You don't know a ******* thing about who or what I've voted for other than president and MI governor, which I've voted for 1 Republican and 1 Democrat. It's just like that nonsense a few years back about the civil rights nominee, Debo Adegbile, who you claimed wrote all those stories but you could never cite a one and just refused to say you were wrong.

2nd Amendment - Left of left would be to abolish it, I'm not for that, but only for modest limitations imposed by congressional vote.

Abortion - Left of left would be for abortions allowed in all cases up until the time of birth.. I'm not for that, but rather no abortions allowed after an agreed upon time frame in which viability of the fetus without assistance is determined...and that time frame would be calculated by the medical community. And I would push anyone considering it to adoption and I favor more education to stop unwanted pregnancies altogether.

Voter ID - Left of left would be for no voter ID at all. I'm not for that. I'm for voter ID as long s there's no out of pocket cost directly to the voter and that it does not disenfranchise anyone to the greatest extent possible.

Taxation - Left of left would be something like a 75% top tax bracket, I'm not for that. And hell, I'd even be open to trying some of the tax alternative you have suggested. Yes, I'd restore much of the fruitless corporate tax cut that did not create jobs, but I'd make the middle class tax cuts permanent, and even look for ways to increase those cuts.

Government Spending - Left of left would basically be a total defunding of the military while pouring more and more money blindly into social programs. I'm not for that. While I am in favor of funding social programs a little more, I won't money spent first to remedy them to get rid of the current fraud and persists among them to make them more cost efficient. And I would support modest reductions is military spending with much of it aimed at the proverbial $1,000 hammer.

Immigration and borders - Left of left would be open borders and unlimited immigration of people to America. I'm not for that. I'm for better checks of those coming in to the country, better enforcement tracking of those overstaying visas, and a wall on our southern border where we currently have it now, in places that are actually passable. We don't need the whole border with a fence, rather we need the money to go the the guarded border crossings where the bulk of the stuff gets in from.

Okay...I'm tired smacking around your complete nonsense, so just drop it, mmmkay?

(10-02-2020 01:32 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  Okay...I'm tired smacking around your complete nonsense, so just drop it, mmmkay?

Dude, you're investing far more in this than I care to. Call yourself whatever you want. Words are cheap, actions matter.

If you want to convince me that you are pro-2nd-Amendment, next time there is a thread on gun control, post something strongly pro-2nd-Amendment.

If you want to convince me that you are pro-life, next time there is a thread on abortion, post something strongly pro-life.

Otherwise, it's just words, and words are cheap.

(10-02-2020 01:32 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  It's just like that nonsense a few years back about the civil rights nominee, Debo Adegbile, who you claimed wrote all those stories but you could never cite a one and just refused to say you were wrong.

No, I didn't say he wrote all those stories. What I said is that his actions were wrong. People sympathetic to a violent criminal were marching and demonstrating and threatening until public opinion cowered a court into reducing his sentence. Trials are supposed to be held in the courtroom, not the street. What Adegbile did was fail to take any steps to disavow the rabble rousers or to convince them to back off. I consider that to be highly unethical. You may disagree as to the ethics of that. But don't go putting words into my mouth.

Let's go through your list.

(10-02-2020 01:32 PM)Redwingtom Wrote:  2nd Amendment - Left of left would be to abolish it, I'm not for that, but only for modest limitations imposed by congressional vote.

Without defining "modest" your statement is meaningless. What specifics do you favor or oppose? I favor a gun license with a required safety course, written and demonstration tests, and an online tie-in to the criminal data base, basically analogous to a drivers license. That's common sense. Anything beyond that is imposing on an explicit constitutional right that explicitly "shall not be abridged."

We may not be far apart, but if we aren't then you vote willingly for people who disagree strongly. Why?

Quote:Abortion - Left of left would be for abortions allowed in all cases up until the time of birth. I'm not for that, but rather no abortions allowed after an agreed upon time frame in which viability of the fetus without assistance is determined...and that time frame would be calculated by the medical community. And I would push anyone considering it to adoption and I favor more education to stop unwanted pregnancies altogether.

So next time there is an abortion thread, post this there. And again, if this is your position, why do you vote willingly to people opposed to this position?

Quote:Voter ID - Left of left would be for no voter ID at all. I'm not for that. I'm for voter ID as long as there's no out of pocket cost directly to the voter and that it does not disenfranchise anyone to the greatest extent possible.

We probably aren't far apart here, but why do you vote willingly for people who oppose that?

Quote:Taxation - Left of left would be something like a 75% top tax bracket, I'm not for that. And hell, I'd even be open to trying some of the tax alternative you have suggested. Yes, I'd restore much of the fruitless corporate tax cut that did not create jobs, but I'd make the middle class tax cuts permanent, and even look for ways to increase those cuts.

So you want to go back to the highest corporate tax rate in the world, and watch investment and growth and jobs stream out to Mexico, China, and Western Europe? And you don't have to get anywhere near 75% to be left of left. Sweden (pretty much left of left) is currently highest in the world at 60%--but their corporate rate is 22%, substantially lower than ours (counting state taxes) even with the Trump cuts.

Quote:Government Spending - Left of left would basically be a total defunding of the military while pouring more and more money blindly into social programs. I'm not for that. While I am in favor of funding social programs a little more, I won't money spent first to remedy them to get rid of the current fraud and persists among them to make them more cost efficient. And I would support modest reductions is military spending with much of it aimed at the proverbial $1,000 hammer.

The real ways to cut military spending are 1) cut out administrative overhead and spend more on combat and combat support, and 2) never waste another dime, or the life or limb of any of our fine soldiers, sailors, airmen, Marines, and officers on any war that we don't intend to win. And nobody is more convinced of the need to revise and reform military procurement than I am. The reason that amber costs $1,000 is that it costs the manufacturer
$995 to make it--$5 for the hammer and $990 for all the administrative and bureaucratic BS he has to go trough to make it.

The sad thing is that we could provide a universal basic income (UBI), as long as we kept it truly basic, and universal private health care using the Bismarck model, for less than the government currently spends on health and welfare, simply by eliminating the gate-keeping overhead that probably costs over $100K per bureaucrat.

Quote:Immigration and borders - Left of left would be open borders and unlimited immigration of people to America. I'm not for that. I'm for better checks of those coming in to the country, better enforcement tracking of those overstaying visas, and a wall on our southern border where we currently have it now, in places that are actually passable. We don't need the whole border with a fence, rather we need the money to go the the guarded border crossings where the bulk of the stuff gets in from.

Merit-based immigration, based on a point system like the rest of the civilized world. Illegals who are here and productive, and their families, get guest worker status. Wall from west coast to Rio Grande, spend money to upgrade other methods that are more appropriate when the border is a river.

So if these are your issue positions, why do you vote consistently for people who oppose these positions?

(10-02-2020 06:31 AM)Redwingtom Wrote:  I still favor the 2nd Amendment, lower taxes on the middle class, less government spending, and want restrictions on abortion and prefer adoption, etc.

* Favor 2nd Amendment = TRUMP.

* Lower Taxes On Middle Class = TRUMP.

* Less Government Spending = TRUMP.

* Prefer Adoption over Abortion = TRUMP.