(09-22-2020 10:21 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  

(09-22-2020 09:17 PM)banker Wrote:  I have a hard time with empathy when I can remember the OP bragging about being able to step up and pay the coach that much to keep him.

Here’s the thing - if you can’t pay $3-4 million it’s stupid to pay $1.8MM. What are you doing but buying an extra year or two if he’s successful and who exactly are you bidding against? No G5 should pay more than about a million.

Been saying the same thing for years...

not one of our schools can afford to pay a coach what the lowest team in a P5 can. If they want that coach bad enough. It's just stupid to bid up a contract when there is no reason to do so.

The only time a school is going to have the upper hand in a head coach's contract is that first one. Most non head coaches want to move up into that captains chair just as bad as the school wants them. Offer a competitive that fits in the middle, of the conference.

Then if they win the first couple years...make him in the top 3. If he wins a championship in those 2 seasons. Make him the highest paid coach in the conference. Which would have been around 900k 2 years into Littrell's contract.

UNT was basically bidding against their self. Another thing I've always said about a coach....

never go over the point that you cant afford to fire that coach. Especially early into his contract when he really hasnt won anything. After back to back championships you might think about it. But in a good business sense you have to know your limits and the limits of what it takes to keep that coach.

As I said when UNT gave him this contract...1.8 million is not going to keep him at UNT if some other schools wants him and willing to pay. ULL made the same mistake and they had to live with it for 2 or 3 years past the time they should have fired the coach.

Know your limits and who you are bidding against. UNT basically was trying to protect losing a coach to 2 or 3 schools in the AAC. No way in hell were they going to compete with the lowest P5 schools. I dont believe UNT could compete with South Florida or Houston when it comes to the amount they could afford.

Before last season I said UNT better hope Littrell was gone after the season. If not UNT is stuck with a coach that cant win big games and paying him money they cant afford to eat.

Know your limits

In a weird twist of fate way both UNT (Littrell) and ULL (Hudspeth) fortunes took a turn for the worse after losing to Louisiana Tech. Hudspeth never recovered and Littrell might not either.
ULL with Hudspeth took a straight nose dive after we beat them on 9/6/14. The game were ULL said they were going to embarrass us. They even invited all our recruits to the game.
UNT with Littrell have completely regressed since Amik blocked that field goal to win the game in Denton on 9/29/17.

WKUYG is right; ULL had to hang onto Hudspeth for a couple more years before they could get rid of him because of his contract. He'd just signed the big contract before that season.

UNT is tough job to hire for even at 1.8 million. No G5 head coach wants it. Historic losing program in competitive area for recruiting. UNT hasn’t had NFL draft pick in 20 years, try selling that to Mommy Daddy or Uncle.

(09-22-2020 10:45 PM)deb025 Wrote:  

(09-22-2020 10:21 PM)WKUYG Wrote:  

(09-22-2020 09:17 PM)banker Wrote:  I have a hard time with empathy when I can remember the OP bragging about being able to step up and pay the coach that much to keep him.

Here’s the thing - if you can’t pay $3-4 million it’s stupid to pay $1.8MM. What are you doing but buying an extra year or two if he’s successful and who exactly are you bidding against? No G5 should pay more than about a million.

Been saying the same thing for years...

not one of our schools can afford to pay a coach what the lowest team in a P5 can. If they want that coach bad enough. It's just stupid to bid up a contract when there is no reason to do so.

The only time a school is going to have the upper hand in a head coach's contract is that first one. Most non head coaches want to move up into that captains chair just as bad as the school wants them. Offer a competitive that fits in the middle, of the conference.

Then if they win the first couple years...make him in the top 3. If he wins a championship in those 2 seasons. Make him the highest paid coach in the conference. Which would have been around 900k 2 years into Littrell's contract.

UNT was basically bidding against their self. Another thing I've always said about a coach....

never go over the point that you cant afford to fire that coach. Especially early into his contract when he really hasnt won anything. After back to back championships you might think about it. But in a good business sense you have to know your limits and the limits of what it takes to keep that coach.

As I said when UNT gave him this contract...1.8 million is not going to keep him at UNT if some other schools wants him and willing to pay. ULL made the same mistake and they had to live with it for 2 or 3 years past the time they should have fired the coach.

Know your limits and who you are bidding against. UNT basically was trying to protect losing a coach to 2 or 3 schools in the AAC. No way in hell were they going to compete with the lowest P5 schools. I dont believe UNT could compete with South Florida or Houston when it comes to the amount they could afford.

Before last season I said UNT better hope Littrell was gone after the season. If not UNT is stuck with a coach that cant win big games and paying him money they cant afford to eat.

Know your limits

In a weird twist of fate way both UNT (Littrell) and ULL (Hudspeth) fortunes took a turn for the worse after losing to Louisiana Tech. Hudspeth never recovered and Littrell might not either.
ULL with Hudspeth took a straight nose dive after we beat them on 9/6/14. The game were ULL said they were going to embarrass us. They even invited all our recruits to the game.
UNT with Littrell have completely regressed since Amik blocked that field goal to win the game in Denton on 9/29/17.

WKUYG is right; ULL had to hang onto Hudspeth for a couple more years before they could get rid of him because of his contract. He'd just signed the big contract before that season.

Very true. UNT was riding high from Arkansas and SMU win. They were getting votes for top 25. All of their fans believe UNT was going to dominate Tech (why I don’t know). They unveiled a statue of Joe Greene, Close to a sell out. Tech was able to pull it out at the end. UNT had a decent team in 2018 even though they got manhandled by a good Utah State in the New Mexico Bowl

This is what worries me about the fire Doc crowd at Marshall. All the man does is win 8-9 games a year with a 10+ win season every 3-4 years. I call it the Jeff Bower syndrome, get rid of a coach cause he doesn't win championships every year. Personally I hope Doc stays a few more years, I remember how it felt to not even sniff a bowl for a while and even losing to an FCS squad under Snyder.

So this is about Littrell, I never understood throwing that much money at him when he had yet to prove consistency. Hope he can turn it around at UNT, but so far, looks like he has the wrong man at DC and it may cost him big. Doc went through this his first 2 years of being HC and fixed it by hiring Heater in 2013, Defense been solid ever since. Now Lambert is coaching similar to Heater, but I actually like Lamberts defense better, he seems to know how to shut down the quick slant and make CB's stick to their man without the 5-10 yard cushions lol

(09-22-2020 11:18 PM)Dawgxas Wrote:  UNT is tough job to hire for even at 1.8 million. No G5 head coach wants it. Historic losing program in competitive area for recruiting. UNT hasn’t had NFL draft pick in 20 years, try selling that to Mommy Daddy or Uncle.

UNT won the belt from 2001-2004, I remember the first year they won it with a 5-7 record and beat Cincy in their bowl. So somewhat true of what you say but not completely. The right coach could really make some noise there imo. Newish stadium, higher than average pay, rich recruiting grounds.

(09-22-2020 09:17 PM)banker Wrote:  I have a hard time with empathy when I can remember the OP bragging about being able to step up and pay the coach that much to keep him.

Here’s the thing - if you can’t pay $3-4 million it’s stupid to pay $1.8MM. What are you doing but buying an extra year or two if he’s successful and who exactly are you bidding against? No G5 should pay more than about a million.

Now you're talking like a banker. That's very sound advice.

Fans forget that it's not necessarily what you can afford to pay a guy to stay, but rather it's what you can afford to pay a guy to leave....if you have to fire him. Nothing drags a football program down worse than holding onto a losing coach longer than you have to, because you can't afford to fire him.

I would structure contracts with a reasonable base, great performance incentives, and retention bonuses at our level.

Why not:
$500,000 base
$30k per win
$25 k for a bowl
$25k for a bowl win
$50k for a division title
$50k for a conference title
$100,000 for a NY6 bowl
$100,000 for a NY6 bowl win.

Your base increases $100,000 every time we sign a new contract and all incentives go up 10%.

(09-23-2020 12:33 PM)banker Wrote:  I would structure contracts with a reasonable base, great performance incentives, and retention bonuses at our level.

Why not:
$500,000 base
$30k per win
$25 k for a bowl
$25k for a bowl win
$50k for a division title
$50k for a conference title
$100,000 for a NY6 bowl
$100,000 for a NY6 bowl win.

Your base increases $100,000 every time we sign a new contract and all incentives go up 10%.

That's how you sign an "up and comer" with no demand.

(09-23-2020 12:33 PM)banker Wrote:  I would structure contracts with a reasonable base, great performance incentives, and retention bonuses at our level.

Why not:
$500,000 base
$30k per win
$25 k for a bowl
$25k for a bowl win
$50k for a division title
$50k for a conference title
$100,000 for a NY6 bowl
$100,000 for a NY6 bowl win.

Your base increases $100,000 every time we sign a new contract and all incentives go up 10%.

Question: don’t incentives encourage cheating and lax discipline? Are you really going to sit your star QB for a half when a win is worth $30k?

He's 1-1 vs Wilder (ODU) so yea, UNT should have higher expectations...

(09-23-2020 12:49 PM)OptimisticOwl Wrote:  

(09-23-2020 12:33 PM)banker Wrote:  I would structure contracts with a reasonable base, great performance incentives, and retention bonuses at our level.

Why not:
$500,000 base
$30k per win
$25 k for a bowl
$25k for a bowl win
$50k for a division title
$50k for a conference title
$100,000 for a NY6 bowl
$100,000 for a NY6 bowl win.

Your base increases $100,000 every time we sign a new contract and all incentives go up 10%.

Question: don’t incentives encourage cheating and lax discipline? Are you really going to sit your star QB for a half when a win is worth $30k?

Well, if you are up big shouldn’t you protect him for the next game you want to win? If you aren’t up big, why should he be sitting?

My belief is coaches try to win every game. Incentives just reward their ability to fulfill that desire. Lax discipline doesn’t win games generally and cheating is a character flaw that should be overseen by the school anyway. I guy who will cheat to earn incentives is a guy who would cheat to keep his job anyway.

(09-23-2020 06:16 AM)beefcake0520 Wrote:  This is what worries me about the fire Doc crowd at Marshall. All the man does is win 8-9 games a year with a 10+ win season every 3-4 years. I call it the Jeff Bower syndrome, get rid of a coach cause he doesn't win championships every year. Personally I hope Doc stays a few more years, I remember how it felt to not even sniff a bowl for a while and even losing to an FCS squad under Snyder.

So this is about Littrell, I never understood throwing that much money at him when he had yet to prove consistency. Hope he can turn it around at UNT, but so far, looks like he has the wrong man at DC and it may cost him big. Doc went through this his first 2 years of being HC and fixed it by hiring Heater in 2013, Defense been solid ever since. Now Lambert is coaching similar to Heater, but I actually like Lamberts defense better, he seems to know how to shut down the quick slant and make CB's stick to their man without the 5-10 yard cushions lol

We are NOT North Texas.. We Are Marshall.

We have the facilities, history, fan base, etc. There is no excuse for only winning the division twice in 10 years and only 1 championship.

This is not the AAC. This is CUSA and Docs lack of championships is unacceptable.

(09-22-2020 09:17 PM)banker Wrote:  I have a hard time with empathy when I can remember the OP bragging about being able to step up and pay the coach that much to keep him.

Here’s the thing - if you can’t pay $3-4 million it’s stupid to pay $1.8MM. What are you doing but buying an extra year or two if he’s successful and who exactly are you bidding against? No G5 should pay more than about a million.

My thoughts exactly.

(09-23-2020 01:41 PM)herdfan129 Wrote:  

(09-23-2020 06:16 AM)beefcake0520 Wrote:  This is what worries me about the fire Doc crowd at Marshall. All the man does is win 8-9 games a year with a 10+ win season every 3-4 years. I call it the Jeff Bower syndrome, get rid of a coach cause he doesn't win championships every year. Personally I hope Doc stays a few more years, I remember how it felt to not even sniff a bowl for a while and even losing to an FCS squad under Snyder.

So this is about Littrell, I never understood throwing that much money at him when he had yet to prove consistency. Hope he can turn it around at UNT, but so far, looks like he has the wrong man at DC and it may cost him big. Doc went through this his first 2 years of being HC and fixed it by hiring Heater in 2013, Defense been solid ever since. Now Lambert is coaching similar to Heater, but I actually like Lamberts defense better, he seems to know how to shut down the quick slant and make CB's stick to their man without the 5-10 yard cushions lol

We are NOT North Texas.. We Are Marshall.

We have the facilities, history, fan base, etc. There is no excuse for only winning the division twice in 10 years and only 1 championship.

This is not the AAC. This is CUSA and Docs lack of championships is unacceptable.

No offense brother, but Pruett didn't win a division or conference title his last two years of the MAC either. All the crowing I keep hearing blows my mind considering how long ago that was, we are talking 18 years, we had lightning in a bottle and it was mismanaged. Look, I became a fan in 97, so I know and lived through the championships etc, it was great but it was also a rare thing to happen to a program that is not a P5. Maybe Doc should have won more divisional and conference championships, but at the same time, be careful what you wish for, Marshall doesn't have money to throw away, you get rid of a winner, bring in someone you HOPE catches fire, fall flat and it's back to the Snyder days and years of trying to get back to where we currently are. I'd rather not go there, I am happy to "contend" with the possibility of winning a division and championship most every year. Something we couldn't say from 2003-2010. You do have to give other programs credit where it is deserved, they play FBS ball too and some rival or have better facilities than we do, the Joan is in serious need of a makeover. BTW Pruett also has WTF losses most years too, see Akron.

A team that has likely lost 7 straight games will face UNT with a coach making $110K. If you lose that one, you have hit bottom and consequently if we lose, we have hit bottom. So many pillow fights in C-USA these days.

(09-25-2020 12:02 PM)everyone Wrote:  A team that has likely lost 7 straight games will face UNT with a coach making $110K. If you lose that one, you have hit bottom and consequently if we lose, we have hit bottom. So many pillow fights in C-USA these days.

Actually heard Scotty is getting $400k to be the Interim. Don't know if that's true or not?

(09-25-2020 11:55 AM)beefcake0520 Wrote:  

(09-23-2020 01:41 PM)herdfan129 Wrote:  

(09-23-2020 06:16 AM)beefcake0520 Wrote:  This is what worries me about the fire Doc crowd at Marshall. All the man does is win 8-9 games a year with a 10+ win season every 3-4 years. I call it the Jeff Bower syndrome, get rid of a coach cause he doesn't win championships every year. Personally I hope Doc stays a few more years, I remember how it felt to not even sniff a bowl for a while and even losing to an FCS squad under Snyder.

So this is about Littrell, I never understood throwing that much money at him when he had yet to prove consistency. Hope he can turn it around at UNT, but so far, looks like he has the wrong man at DC and it may cost him big. Doc went through this his first 2 years of being HC and fixed it by hiring Heater in 2013, Defense been solid ever since. Now Lambert is coaching similar to Heater, but I actually like Lamberts defense better, he seems to know how to shut down the quick slant and make CB's stick to their man without the 5-10 yard cushions lol

We are NOT North Texas.. We Are Marshall.

We have the facilities, history, fan base, etc. There is no excuse for only winning the division twice in 10 years and only 1 championship.

This is not the AAC. This is CUSA and Docs lack of championships is unacceptable.

No offense brother, but Pruett didn't win a division or conference title his last two years of the MAC either. All the crowing I keep hearing blows my mind considering how long ago that was, we are talking 18 years, we had lightning in a bottle and it was mismanaged. Look, I became a fan in 97, so I know and lived through the championships etc, it was great but it was also a rare thing to happen to a program that is not a P5. Maybe Doc should have won more divisional and conference championships, but at the same time, be careful what you wish for, Marshall doesn't have money to throw away, you get rid of a winner, bring in someone you HOPE catches fire, fall flat and it's back to the Snyder days and years of trying to get back to where we currently are. I'd rather not go there, I am happy to "contend" with the possibility of winning a division and championship most every year. Something we couldn't say from 2003-2010. You do have to give other programs credit where it is deserved, they play FBS ball too and some rival or have better facilities than we do, the Joan is in serious need of a makeover. BTW Pruett also has WTF losses most years too, see Akron.

ANYONE could coach Marshall to a 2nd-3rd place East Division and 7-8 wins playing in the Beef Jerkey Bowl.....GET SERIOUS!

(09-25-2020 11:55 AM)beefcake0520 Wrote:  

(09-23-2020 01:41 PM)herdfan129 Wrote:  

(09-23-2020 06:16 AM)beefcake0520 Wrote:  This is what worries me about the fire Doc crowd at Marshall. All the man does is win 8-9 games a year with a 10+ win season every 3-4 years. I call it the Jeff Bower syndrome, get rid of a coach cause he doesn't win championships every year. Personally I hope Doc stays a few more years, I remember how it felt to not even sniff a bowl for a while and even losing to an FCS squad under Snyder.

So this is about Littrell, I never understood throwing that much money at him when he had yet to prove consistency. Hope he can turn it around at UNT, but so far, looks like he has the wrong man at DC and it may cost him big. Doc went through this his first 2 years of being HC and fixed it by hiring Heater in 2013, Defense been solid ever since. Now Lambert is coaching similar to Heater, but I actually like Lamberts defense better, he seems to know how to shut down the quick slant and make CB's stick to their man without the 5-10 yard cushions lol

We are NOT North Texas.. We Are Marshall.

We have the facilities, history, fan base, etc. There is no excuse for only winning the division twice in 10 years and only 1 championship.

This is not the AAC. This is CUSA and Docs lack of championships is unacceptable.

No offense brother, but Pruett didn't win a division or conference title his last two years of the MAC either. All the crowing I keep hearing blows my mind considering how long ago that was, we are talking 18 years, we had lightning in a bottle and it was mismanaged. Look, I became a fan in 97, so I know and lived through the championships etc, it was great but it was also a rare thing to happen to a program that is not a P5. Maybe Doc should have won more divisional and conference championships, but at the same time, be careful what you wish for, Marshall doesn't have money to throw away, you get rid of a winner, bring in someone you HOPE catches fire, fall flat and it's back to the Snyder days and years of trying to get back to where we currently are. I'd rather not go there, I am happy to "contend" with the possibility of winning a division and championship most every year. Something we couldn't say from 2003-2010. You do have to give other programs credit where it is deserved, they play FBS ball too and some rival or have better facilities than we do, the Joan is in serious need of a makeover. BTW Pruett also has WTF losses most years too, see Akron.

Snyder was trying to climb a greased flag pole. Pruett left the cupboard bare.

(09-22-2020 06:53 PM)HogDawg Wrote:  

(09-22-2020 05:57 PM)herdfan129 Wrote:  You guys can do a lot better considering how much money you are paying him. $1.8 million is a LOT of money for a G5 coach.

......especially one that can't win....

Oh, he can win. Just not against teams that finish the season with winning records. It is time for North Texas to move in a different direction. While we have some very good very young talent, Littrell has not effectively used the portal to adequately fill gaps until those young guys are ready. After 4 seasons, our program is regressing. We are investing too much to settle for the results we are getting.

(09-22-2020 07:58 PM)DogsWin1 Wrote:  It is amazing how QUICKLY things change in FBS football, not just for UNT but all of us. But using UNT as an example, before last season their fanbase was very high on Littrell and his huge contract, now barely into this season they want his contract terminated.
Things can change FAST in the FBS football world.

There have been rumblings about Littrell's failure to bring in better line talent for the last few seasons. The fact that we were able to win despite those shortcomings masked the issue. UNT spent too many years trying to shop local for line talent, and it is now biting us in the butt.

Littrell is now signing better quality linemen from around the country, but those guys won't have an impact for at least a year or two. I'm not inclined to wait that long for success. We need a coach that can recognize weak areas and address them before we end up in this kind of position.