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Is W&M Chasing an Impossible Dream?
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mrjoolius Offline
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Post: #21
Is W&M Chasing an Impossible Dream?
Good post. I think the problem is I kind of fall on the middle. I like succeeding with the less model, but I would really like to start from equal footing as our peers and see what we really can accomplish. That isn't advocating for championships or bust. I have no doubts in the quality of student/athlete the college attracts.
(This post was last modified: 10-27-2020 11:34 AM by mrjoolius.)
10-27-2020 11:29 AM
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Tribal Offline
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Post: #22
Is W&M Chasing an Impossible Dream?
Good points, all.

Why the sudden panic? D3? We've had very competitive programs for decades and somehow made it work. We're not ODU, VCU ir even JMU but that's okay. I don't want to be those schools. We are an academically demanding, small public school with a passionate familial fanbase.

We must find an AD who shares our values, install a fundraising captain to right that ship, and figure out how to move forward in a transparent and honest manner.

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10-27-2020 11:31 AM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #23
RE: Is W&M Chasing an Impossible Dream?
(10-27-2020 10:11 AM)Blow Gym rat Wrote:  I never thought I would see these words emerge from my keyboard, and I resist this idea with every fiber of my being, but maybe the Patriot League is the answer.

D-3 is not, IMHO.

I would rather avoid D-3.

But here’s a big issue for me.

Geography and travel costs.

As I age, I become more convinced that W&M’s future place is as a top-notch regional school, catering heavily to Virginians.

If a D-1 conference can be formed of largely Virginia and North Carolina schools, that would be my preference. But NCAA rules and regs bar this kind of thinking.

If I had to choose between Patriot and ODAC, that becomes tougher for me.
10-27-2020 11:38 AM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Is W&M Chasing an Impossible Dream?
(10-27-2020 11:31 AM)Tribal Wrote:  Good points, all.

Why the sudden panic? D3? We've had very competitive programs for decades and somehow made it work. We're not ODU, VCU ir even JMU but that's okay. I don't want to be those schools. We are an academically demanding, small public school with a passionate familial fanbase.

We must find an AD who shares our values, install a fundraising captain to right that ship, and figure out how to move forward in a transparent and honest manner.

Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk

No panic. It’s just that one of Martin’s three frames is D-1, along with Title IX and financials.

Well, D-1 is not a simple thing, as most of us know. D-1 has a myriad of levels.

And where we currently sit in two eastern seaboard D-1 leagues may be a problem.
10-27-2020 11:42 AM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Is W&M Chasing an Impossible Dream?
(10-27-2020 11:29 AM)mrjoolius Wrote:  Good post. I think the problem is I kind of fall on the middle. I like succeeding with the less model, but I would really like to start from equal footing as our peers and see what we really can accomplish. That isn't advocating for championships or bust. I have no doubts in the quality of student/athlete the college attracts.

I think we’re basically in agreement, except for one thing.

I am not willing to cut seven sports (now down to four) so as to start from equal footing as our peers.

Under this logic, to start from equal footing with N’eastern, Hofstra, Drexel, and UNCW, we’d have to drop football.
10-27-2020 11:46 AM
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mrjoolius Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Is W&M Chasing an Impossible Dream?
(10-27-2020 11:46 AM)nj alum Wrote:  I think we’re basically in agreement, except for one thing.

I am not willing to cut seven sports (now down to four) so as to start from equal footing as our peers.

Under this logic, to start from equal footing with N’eastern, Hofstra, Drexel, and UNCW, we’d have to drop football.

I think the starting point is, who are our peers? I know it's been brought up on this board before. Other than being CAA opponents, I wouldn't consider any of those schools you listed as peer universities. Our 2019 sports model of a CAA tops 23 sports and a bottom of the conference enrollment makes for a tightrope walk yearly to balance the finances. Threading the needle is no way to build on and improve our athletics department. Our closest peer is our biggest football rival, the University of Richmond. They offer 16 sports. I'd say the CAA average is 17-18 varsity teams.

I suppose if we are unwilling to do what is necessary to remain competitive in the relevant revenue CAA sports, moving down to a Patriot or Big South might be the only option available to us. (I think I threw up a little in my mouth typing that)
(This post was last modified: 10-27-2020 12:48 PM by mrjoolius.)
10-27-2020 12:42 PM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Is W&M Chasing an Impossible Dream?
UVa is our peer.

But even in that case, we can only be UVa-lite.

That is a problem. We have no peers. Patriot and Ivy schools come the closest, as does Richmond, but they are all private except for the service academies, and that creates issues, as does geography.

We play football above our weight, play hoops below our weight, and everything else has been at our weight.

Now, we’re looking to adjust the weights for football and hoops, while breaking the scale for everything else.

Just a mess.
10-27-2020 12:57 PM
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zablenoise Offline
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Post: #28
Is W&M Chasing an Impossible Dream?
Yeah I feel like our peers are all "what-if" schools. What if Wake was public? What if the service academies were state run? Etc

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10-27-2020 01:39 PM
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mrjoolius Offline
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Post: #29
Is W&M Chasing an Impossible Dream?
Yeah, looking at "peer" Ivy and Patriot schools it's tough to find a match there too. Most are private, are way out of our footprint, or are have little in common with endowments, and enrollment / number of varsity teams. UVA is double our size and enjoys an influx of ACC money. U of R is half our size, offers less sports, and enjoys an A10 influx of money.
10-27-2020 01:50 PM
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Blow Gym rat Offline
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Post: #30
RE: Is W&M Chasing an Impossible Dream?
(10-27-2020 11:38 AM)nj alum Wrote:  I would rather avoid D-3.

But here’s a big issue for me.

Geography and travel costs.

As I age, I become more convinced that W&M’s future place is as a top-notch regional school, catering heavily to Virginians.

If a D-1 conference can be formed of largely Virginia and North Carolina schools, that would be my preference. But NCAA rules and regs bar this kind of thinking.

If I had to choose between Patriot and ODAC, that becomes tougher for me.

Like you, I would love to see a regional (say, southern Pa. to N.C.) Div. I conference come together, preferably of schools that are at least somewhat academic-minded. The likelihood of that seems slim, as you say.

But we would be a ridiculous fish out of water in the ODAC. While I like their geography, based on Wikipedia numbers (which hopefully are at least somewhere close to accurate) we're three times the size of the largest ODAC school (Shenandoah, at 2,800 students), and more than 10 times the size of some. We have Div. I/FCS level facilities (including the imminent Kaplan renovation), Div. I rivalries, Div. I traditions, etc. We're just way too big of a fish for that pool.
10-27-2020 02:04 PM
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Tribe32 Online
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Post: #31
RE: Is W&M Chasing an Impossible Dream?
If we wait around with this covid thing long enough we will see a very rapid aknowledgement from a majority of schools, that sports without fans or big TV contracts don't work. Time to regroup geographically and realign most conferences. I could see half of the BCS teams drop down to FCS as entire conferences in the next two years due to economic reasons.
10-27-2020 02:32 PM
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mrjoolius Offline
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RE: Is W&M Chasing an Impossible Dream?
(10-27-2020 02:32 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  If we wait around with this covid thing long enough we will see a very rapid aknowledgement from a majority of schools, that sports without fans or big TV contracts don't work. Time to regroup geographically and realign most conferences. I could see half of the BCS teams drop down to FCS as entire conferences in the next two years due to economic reasons.
Does that seem realistic to you? I think the money payouts from big time sports are a hell of a drug. Like junkies they will hold on at all costs to get that revenue stream again. I think you'd need more than a couple lost seasons for schools to bail.
10-27-2020 02:40 PM
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nj alum Offline
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Post: #33
RE: Is W&M Chasing an Impossible Dream?
If you could create the following eight team all sports conference, and get these other schools to join, would you do it:

East:

ECU
ODU
W&M
Richmond

West:

App. St.
JMU
Marshall
Charlotte
(This post was last modified: 10-27-2020 03:31 PM by nj alum.)
10-27-2020 03:30 PM
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Tribe32 Online
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Post: #34
RE: Is W&M Chasing an Impossible Dream?
(10-27-2020 02:40 PM)mrjoolius Wrote:  
(10-27-2020 02:32 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  If we wait around with this covid thing long enough we will see a very rapid aknowledgement from a majority of schools, that sports without fans or big TV contracts don't work. Time to regroup geographically and realign most conferences. I could see half of the BCS teams drop down to FCS as entire conferences in the next two years due to economic reasons.
Does that seem realistic to you? I think the money payouts from big time sports are a hell of a drug. Like junkies they will hold on at all costs to get that revenue stream again. I think you'd need more than a couple lost seasons for schools to bail.

I think the following would be candidates to move down if revenues don't come back soon

American Athletic
Mid American
Mountain West
Sunbelt
Maybe CUSA
10-27-2020 03:31 PM
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Tank55 Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Is W&M Chasing an Impossible Dream?
(10-27-2020 03:30 PM)nj alum Wrote:  If you could create the following eight team all sports conference, and get these other schools to join, would you do it:

East:

ECU
ODU
W&M
Richmond

West:

App. St.
JMU
Marshall
Charlotte

In a heartbeat.
10-27-2020 05:17 PM
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Tribe32 Online
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Post: #36
RE: Is W&M Chasing an Impossible Dream?
(10-27-2020 05:17 PM)Tank55 Wrote:  
(10-27-2020 03:30 PM)nj alum Wrote:  If you could create the following eight team all sports conference, and get these other schools to join, would you do it:

East:

ECU
ODU
W&M
Richmond

West:

App. St.
JMU
Marshall
Charlotte

In a heartbeat.

Consider Elon, Davidson, and Coastal Carolina
10-27-2020 06:31 PM
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LeadBolt Offline
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Post: #37
RE: Is W&M Chasing an Impossible Dream?
(10-27-2020 06:31 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  
(10-27-2020 05:17 PM)Tank55 Wrote:  
(10-27-2020 03:30 PM)nj alum Wrote:  If you could create the following eight team all sports conference, and get these other schools to join, would you do it:

East:

ECU
ODU
W&M
Richmond

West:

App. St.
JMU
Marshall
Charlotte

In a heartbeat.

Consider Elon, Davidson, and Coastal Carolina

Furman would be worth considering on the southern flank, Delaware and Navy on the northern flank, along with the 8 + 3 above. Would Liberty be a consideration?
(This post was last modified: 10-27-2020 06:58 PM by LeadBolt.)
10-27-2020 06:56 PM
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Florida tribe fan Offline
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Post: #38
RE: Is W&M Chasing an Impossible Dream?
(10-27-2020 08:42 AM)Tribe2011 Wrote:  It's a valid overall point for the school, albeit one I'm not sure I agree with. But if we're doing that, we should go D3 and cut athletic costs everywhere across the board. The worst possible thing we could do is take a middle ground approach that has both the downsides of elevated spending AND lack of success. There's no point in fielding D1 basketball and football teams if we're going to doom them to irrelevancy with barebones funding (largely what we did with our basketball program for decades until we got lucky with Shaver).

Mr. Roberts in his column did not argue for unilateral disarmament by Wm & Mary. He argued for strategic arms limitation talks among small enrollment schools that play FCS football and division 1 basketball. Shaping a competitive landscape where schools that value academics and athletics can thrive would make it possible to succeed without a futile arms race that bankrupts the participants and results in the elimination of non revenue sports.
10-27-2020 07:41 PM
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Florida tribe fan Offline
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Post: #39
RE: Is W&M Chasing an Impossible Dream?
(10-27-2020 03:30 PM)nj alum Wrote:  If you could create the following eight team all sports conference, and get these other schools to join, would you do it:

East:

ECU
ODU
W&M
Richmond

West:

App. St.
JMU
Marshall
Charlotte

Not until Wm & Mary’s enrollment grew by 20,000 and the academic standards of the other institutions began to resemble those of Wm & Mary.
10-27-2020 07:47 PM
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TribeDeac Offline
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Post: #40
RE: Is W&M Chasing an Impossible Dream?
App State thinks they are Alabama and that they are going to be invited into the ACC which will never happen. ECU and Charlotte both harbor big time football ambitions. App cut sports this year while investing $50M in football stadium enhancements. While interesting, these schools have 20K plus enrollments and will cut academic programs before they go too deep into athletics.



(10-27-2020 06:56 PM)LeadBolt Wrote:  
(10-27-2020 06:31 PM)Tribe32 Wrote:  
(10-27-2020 05:17 PM)Tank55 Wrote:  
(10-27-2020 03:30 PM)nj alum Wrote:  If you could create the following eight team all sports conference, and get these other schools to join, would you do it:

East:

ECU
ODU
W&M
Richmond

West:

App. St.
JMU
Marshall
Charlotte

In a heartbeat.

Consider Elon, Davidson, and Coastal Carolina

Furman would be worth considering on the southern flank, Delaware and Navy on the northern flank, along with the 8 + 3 above. Would Liberty be a consideration?
10-27-2020 07:55 PM
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