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UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
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OKIcat Offline
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Post: #41
RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
Bearcat 1985, I'm ALL in with ALL your suggested strategies. I think non-Ohioans have historically been a challenge because UC's out-of-state tuition is higher than other large public universities. Particularly looking to the southeastern states, many have historically been substantially less and now sweeten the pot even more with merit based assistance. Even if UC matches that merit money, it's still more expensive in some cases. Add the sunshine and warm weather and it's pretty enticing to go to 'Bama or South Carolina.

I believe UC is in a "quiet phase" of that next capital campaign at this time, but I have no idea how Covid 19 might impact the length and public rollout in the context of 2020. I will only add that endowment building is the hardest work of all in fundraising. So many donors want to make gifts that can be spent now to have an immediate impact on students, faculty chairs/research or the physical campus. But growing that endowment must remain a key objective.

It certainly wouldn't hurt if someone would bequeath some Apple or Amazon stock to UC's endowment as earlier generations did with P&G stocks.
 
09-18-2020 09:14 AM
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RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-18-2020 07:53 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(09-18-2020 07:21 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-18-2020 06:41 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  
(09-17-2020 11:15 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(09-17-2020 08:09 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  I really think that with some good leadership and vision that UC can pass Miami by academically as an undergraduate school this decade. We've done that with OU, and Miami will be next. Miami's administration is complacent, and sometimes I think they are completely ignorant of the fact that their vaunted "public ivy" glory years (essentially the late 60 to the early 80s) were the result of OSU being forced into open admissions by the Rhodes administration. Before that, they were just considered as one of the "four corner" schools with OU, BG and Kent. Go back further, and the school literally had to shut down for a decade due to no enrollment and money. Public Ivy wasn't the historical norm; it was a historical aberration resulting from the state screwing with the flagship school. Academically, they find themselves in some weird nowhere land. They're not a research school and have no reputation in STEM, but they're also not the "liberal arts college" that they try to advertise themselves as. They're a fairly large (17K) moderately selective public university where everybody majors in business and as noted above their campus is stuck in the middle of nowhere.

Miami's problem is that they only have one cash cow that everyone else mooches off: the business school. Every school has departments that need to be subsidized (typically the liberal arts departments that provide gen ed courses). At Miami they all have to get subsidized from the same place, so the only cash cow gets starved of the cash it needs to grow the institution.

At UC, there's multiple cash cows: medicine, DAAP, CCM, engineering, and (somewhat) nursing and business. The subsidy gets spread out, so it's a manageable burden for each of those units to provide to the liberal arts college.

The local R2 schools that are in decent shape have multiple cash cows. Ball State has business, architecture, and education. Illinois State has actuary/insurance, business, nursing, and the best education school in the country. Ohio U has business, nursing, and used to have journalism. IUPUI has a massive medicine cash cow, plus small profit centers in engineering and business. Toledo has medicine, business, and engineering.

Miami is still in decent shape because it had a big head start on those schools 30 years ago. But they are losing their advantage, and UC is not the only institution that is benefiting at Miami's expense.

Bolded, great observation and detailed support of your argument. I will only add that in Miami's "glory days" of the 60's and 70's there were far more social science and liberal arts majors than today. As you pointed out, when those students shifted to anything except business (engineering especially) Miami's offerings were very limited compared with UC.

OSU was crowing sometime in the last year that for Ohio kids who are accepted to both OSU and Miami and end up at one of the two schools, 9 out of 10 end up at OSU. If something about the post-COVID world dries up that Chicagoland pipeline, Miami could be in real trouble on many different fronts--enrollment, finances, selectivity and rankings. And it really is just Chicagoland. Miami has never come close to replicating that student demand (and they've spent years and a ton of money trying) in the Northeast, South or West Coast.

If things change in Illinois then Dayton will be in even worse shape. I think they take more kids from that state than Miami does.

Speaking of post Covid, I noticed UC has bulked up on a few more online programs which is definitely the way to go.


But both Miami & Dayton have broad appeal outside Chicago. Miami got 335 freshman enrolled from Illinois in 2018, and Dayton had 374. That's a lot, but it's about the same as Butler (a much smaller school), Kentucky, or Alabama. Western Michigan (530) & Marquette (913) are far more dependent on Chicago kids. So are Iowa & Iowa State, which both have over 1,000.
 
(This post was last modified: 09-18-2020 10:58 AM by Captain Bearcat.)
09-18-2020 10:50 AM
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Post: #43
RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-17-2020 07:42 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  
(09-17-2020 07:19 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-16-2020 11:23 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(09-16-2020 08:45 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-15-2020 09:59 PM)ZCat Wrote:  Excellent discussion!

The article linked at the top of the thread was basically bragging about UC co-op But ignoring the elephant in the room. The overall ranking.

Please post here if anybody hears what The board has to say and if they have a plan. You would think somebody in the media is asking these questions.

I also expect the needle to start pointing in the right direction again. I Actually plan on sending an email to the president.

President Pinto, that is. :) Don’t want to bring other politics talk in this thread.

I noticed that too. I would hope that the internal discussions are a little more frank and self-critical than that rather puffy pr spin. One of the things that I really think hurts Miami is that their entire community--students, faculty, alumni and administrators--truly believe their own bull@#%^. They think everything is wonderful and Miami is just the greatest, most prestigious place on earth, and they have a forty year old book that nobody has cared about for thirty years to tell you so.

I was browsing on the Miami board and they have noticed the drop. They are even now behind Buffalo in the MAC. Those guys are usually a bunch of blowhards who believe they will one day return to what they achieved decades ago and briefly under BR. They aren't happy about their current status academically and athletically.

You're right. They have noticed it, but they're still hung up on the public ivy nonsense, and that's the schools fault. The school drills that into them like an ISIS madras drills the Koran into its recruits. Every person that I have ever met from that school talks about that book. I mean even when the book was new and relevant, they and Vermont were only included as some kind of wild card to mix things up and not just simply plug in expected choices like Washington or Minnesota. I find it very telling that today--and really for the last twenty years--the only schools that still talk about the book are Miami and Vermont, and that's because they really have nothing else.

Bolded, true. But from a public relations standpoint, you ride that horse as long as it's winning. Miami's enrollment seems to have held up for the most part while other regional state universities have suffered.

As CliftonAve stated above, even the Miami faithful have to be shaken by the latest news on their academic ranking slide though. This follows what are now decades of irrelevance on the basketball court and football field. And judging from attendance, one might think there was a Covid 19 outbreak in Oxford a decade ago that's still limiting the number of fans in the stands.

One other factor I've wondered about: younger people today seem to prefer urban settings. So the generation that longed for Miami's pastoral setting and took comfort in the cookie cutter Georgian architecture has moved on. Prospective students today seem to like Cincy's amazing, diverse architecture, Uptown setting, and the easy access to all our city offers from OTR to the Banks.

I see two factors behind Miami's relative decline. First, OSU's abandonment of open enrollment, and investment in selectivity. Second, shift in student preferences towards urban settings and big-time sports.
 
(This post was last modified: 09-18-2020 02:08 PM by Former Lurker.)
09-18-2020 12:56 PM
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Cattidude Offline
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Post: #44
RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-18-2020 08:25 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-18-2020 07:53 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(09-18-2020 07:21 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-18-2020 06:41 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  
(09-17-2020 11:15 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  Miami's problem is that they only have one cash cow that everyone else mooches off: the business school. Every school has departments that need to be subsidized (typically the liberal arts departments that provide gen ed courses). At Miami they all have to get subsidized from the same place, so the only cash cow gets starved of the cash it needs to grow the institution.

At UC, there's multiple cash cows: medicine, DAAP, CCM, engineering, and (somewhat) nursing and business. The subsidy gets spread out, so it's a manageable burden for each of those units to provide to the liberal arts college.

The local R2 schools that are in decent shape have multiple cash cows. Ball State has business, architecture, and education. Illinois State has actuary/insurance, business, nursing, and the best education school in the country. Ohio U has business, nursing, and used to have journalism. IUPUI has a massive medicine cash cow, plus small profit centers in engineering and business. Toledo has medicine, business, and engineering.

Miami is still in decent shape because it had a big head start on those schools 30 years ago. But they are losing their advantage, and UC is not the only institution that is benefiting at Miami's expense.

Bolded, great observation and detailed support of your argument. I will only add that in Miami's "glory days" of the 60's and 70's there were far more social science and liberal arts majors than today. As you pointed out, when those students shifted to anything except business (engineering especially) Miami's offerings were very limited compared with UC.

OSU was crowing sometime in the last year that for Ohio kids who are accepted to both OSU and Miami and end up at one of the two schools, 9 out of 10 end up at OSU. If something about the post-COVID world dries up that Chicagoland pipeline, Miami could be in real trouble on many different fronts--enrollment, finances, selectivity and rankings. And it really is just Chicagoland. Miami has never come close to replicating that student demand (and they've spent years and a ton of money trying) in the Northeast, South or West Coast.

If things change in Illinois then Dayton will be in even worse shape. I think they take more kids from that state than Miami does.

Speaking of post Covid, I noticed UC has bulked up on a few more online programs which is definitely the way to go.

If I could give Pinto and the Board a checklist of things to focus on over the next five years it would be:

Make UC a statewide school: Focus heavily on balancing our freshman classes throughout the state.

Increase out of state enrollment: right now, it's less than 10% and half that is reciprocal tuition from metro area counties in KY and IN. We don't need to be Miami, but I think around 15% of true out of state students would be indicative of a true national university and broaden the geographic diversity of the student body. It also wouldn't hurt from a financial perspective.

While continuing to build on our strengths, recognize our weaknesses and do something about them. In particular build up our core Arts & Sciences departments, increase their enrollment and increase professional and graduate school opportunities for those that major in them. A) That pays for these departments and B) It's the mark of a well-respected, selective university that someone can major in History and East Asian studies and know they'll have professional opportunities upon graduation.

Go all in on getting the Comprehensive Cancer Center designation. This is achievable unlike Ono's big talk regarding AAU.

Conduct another multi-year campaign with a goal of increasing the permanent endowment to the $2B level.


Do all of the above, and UC would truly be next man up for the AAU.

The school is actually conducting a multi year endowment campaign to get to 2B and using the CCC designation as a push for that 2B. Can't remember how I caught wind of it but I saw posted as part of the Next Lives Here campaign. They haven't been very public about those goals though
 
09-18-2020 03:11 PM
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Bearcat 1985 Offline
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RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
So, I went and reread the hawktalk thread, and they seem to all be wanting to avoid the subject and just go back to chanting "public ivy." What I found shocking--and was completely unaware of--was that it apparently was an official motto and goal of the school to be the "best public university in the country" by 2009.

Forget Michigan and Berkeley, did they not notice that they were already getting their ass handed to them by OSU a decade earlier than 2009? Did they not look at themselves slipping down the rankings throughout the 00's? Yet they were talking about supplanting schools like Berkeley, Michigan, UCLA and Virginia as the top public university in the country, and I bet every one of the alums injected that sh!t into their veins for a high that would make Keith Richards jealous. This is what I mean when I say that they are utterly delusional about their school, their history and their place on the food chain. The divorce from reality is quite cult-like.
 
09-18-2020 07:20 PM
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RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
That is some pure gold comedy^^^

Never have been and never will be in the same category as a Berkeley, Michigan, Virginia, North Carolina, UCLA......this list would go on for awhile.
 
09-18-2020 07:30 PM
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RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-16-2020 10:56 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  
(09-16-2020 08:45 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-15-2020 09:59 PM)ZCat Wrote:  Excellent discussion!

The article linked at the top of the thread was basically bragging about UC co-op But ignoring the elephant in the room. The overall ranking.

Please post here if anybody hears what The board has to say and if they have a plan. You would think somebody in the media is asking these questions.

I also expect the needle to start pointing in the right direction again. I Actually plan on sending an email to the president.

President Pinto, that is. :) Don’t want to bring other politics talk in this thread.

I noticed that too. I would hope that the internal discussions are a little more frank and self-critical than that rather puffy pr spin. One of the things that I really think hurts Miami is that their entire community--students, faculty, alumni and administrators--truly believe their own bull@#%^. They think everything is wonderful and Miami is just the greatest, most prestigious place on earth, and they have a forty year old book that nobody has cared about for thirty years to tell you so.

Bolded, an excellent observation. I think a lot of people at UC also believed Miami's bull for far too long and many allowed it to hurt our collective sense of self-esteem about the greatness of UC.

As a university, we've made amazing strides in that regard. Ono was far from a perfect president but he did win over lots of young fans with his social media exploits and presence around town. And the strides made on so many fronts during these past two decades have elevated the UC profile considerably.

Athletically, we as fans can take small steps that have a large collective impact for our school in the region. C-Paw lawn and house flags, license plates and garments need to become ubiquitous in southwestern Ohio. It all shapes the perception that this is UC country and MU, XU and OSU all operate on the periphery.
I think it was you in another thread that also mentioned the license plates and things. Because of those reminders I did get UC plates this time.
 
09-18-2020 08:14 PM
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Bearcat 1985 Offline
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RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-18-2020 03:11 PM)Cattidude Wrote:  
(09-18-2020 08:25 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-18-2020 07:53 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(09-18-2020 07:21 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-18-2020 06:41 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  Bolded, great observation and detailed support of your argument. I will only add that in Miami's "glory days" of the 60's and 70's there were far more social science and liberal arts majors than today. As you pointed out, when those students shifted to anything except business (engineering especially) Miami's offerings were very limited compared with UC.

OSU was crowing sometime in the last year that for Ohio kids who are accepted to both OSU and Miami and end up at one of the two schools, 9 out of 10 end up at OSU. If something about the post-COVID world dries up that Chicagoland pipeline, Miami could be in real trouble on many different fronts--enrollment, finances, selectivity and rankings. And it really is just Chicagoland. Miami has never come close to replicating that student demand (and they've spent years and a ton of money trying) in the Northeast, South or West Coast.

If things change in Illinois then Dayton will be in even worse shape. I think they take more kids from that state than Miami does.

Speaking of post Covid, I noticed UC has bulked up on a few more online programs which is definitely the way to go.

If I could give Pinto and the Board a checklist of things to focus on over the next five years it would be:

Make UC a statewide school: Focus heavily on balancing our freshman classes throughout the state.

Increase out of state enrollment: right now, it's less than 10% and half that is reciprocal tuition from metro area counties in KY and IN. We don't need to be Miami, but I think around 15% of true out of state students would be indicative of a true national university and broaden the geographic diversity of the student body. It also wouldn't hurt from a financial perspective.

While continuing to build on our strengths, recognize our weaknesses and do something about them. In particular build up our core Arts & Sciences departments, increase their enrollment and increase professional and graduate school opportunities for those that major in them. A) That pays for these departments and B) It's the mark of a well-respected, selective university that someone can major in History and East Asian studies and know they'll have professional opportunities upon graduation.

Go all in on getting the Comprehensive Cancer Center designation. This is achievable unlike Ono's big talk regarding AAU.

Conduct another multi-year campaign with a goal of increasing the permanent endowment to the $2B level.


Do all of the above, and UC would truly be next man up for the AAU.

The school is actually conducting a multi year endowment campaign to get to 2B and using the CCC designation as a push for that 2B. Can't remember how I caught wind of it but I saw posted as part of the Next Lives Here campaign. They haven't been very public about those goals though

I knew that one of the first things PInto did was to can the AAU talk and make CCC designation the primary strategic goal of the university. The lack of talk about a campaign doesn't really surprise me since every university campaign will have a quiet phase for a couple of years before the public announcement and big push.
 
09-19-2020 07:34 AM
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RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-18-2020 07:30 PM)natibeast21 Wrote:  That is some pure gold comedy^^^

Never have been and never will be in the same category as a Berkeley, Michigan, Virginia, North Carolina, UCLA......this list would go on for awhile.

New post this morning. They're posting 10 year old articles critiquing USNWR. Now, I'll be the first to tell you that all college rankings have flaws, biases and imperfections. That's inevitable when you're attempting to use various metrics to arrive at a final score and then a ranking. I just find it hilariously clueless though that these guys will dismiss out of hand an attempt to empirically rank colleges with a preset formula and current data while touting a forty year old book that was purely the subjective opinion of one man as the epitome of unbiased college ranking.
 
09-19-2020 07:45 AM
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RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
Miami has sort of lost its way. It's never going to be a major research university, but it hasn't exactly embraced its traditional identity as an undergraduate-focused arts & sciences college with quality undergraduate business and education colleges bolted on. Their arts and sciences programs received a massive gift (5 million?), and they might be able to find their groove again.

UC is playing in a bigger pond. Right now, mediocre arts & sciences programs are holding it back, as is relative stagnation at the law school. Wise deployment of resources to raise median ACT/SATs and LSATs, and to recruit/retain top faculty would go a long way towards putting the bloom back on the rose.
 
(This post was last modified: 09-19-2020 10:13 AM by Former Lurker.)
09-19-2020 10:09 AM
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RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-19-2020 10:09 AM)Former Lurker Wrote:  Miami has sort of lost its way. It's never going to be a major research university, but it hasn't exactly embraced its traditional identity as an undergraduate-focused arts & sciences college with quality undergraduate business and education colleges bolted on. Their arts and sciences programs received a massive gift (5 million?), and they might be able to find their groove again.

UC is playing in a bigger pond. Right now, mediocre arts & sciences programs are holding it back, as is relative stagnation at the law school. Wise deployment of resources to raise median ACT/SATs and LSATs, and to recruit/retain top faculty would go a long way towards putting the bloom back on the rose.

I agree entirely that UC should focus on building up our weaknesses.

As for Miami, I don't believe that 5 million isn't a massive donation, especially when you're stretching it across what should be the largest college in the university. That 5M will disburse around 200 to 225K. That might barely pay for two full professor's chairs with no money left over for any type of scholarships or research funds. It certainly won't drive the entire humanities, social sciences and hard sciences departments to the next level. I would feel very comfortable having my kids major in History or Astronomy at a Big Ten school. I absolutely would advise them not to do so at Miami. And out of Miami and UC, I do think that UC is the better bet to raise it's A&S profile to the level of some of the Big Ten schools.
 
09-19-2020 10:28 AM
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RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-19-2020 10:28 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-19-2020 10:09 AM)Former Lurker Wrote:  Miami has sort of lost its way. It's never going to be a major research university, but it hasn't exactly embraced its traditional identity as an undergraduate-focused arts & sciences college with quality undergraduate business and education colleges bolted on. Their arts and sciences programs received a massive gift (5 million?), and they might be able to find their groove again.

UC is playing in a bigger pond. Right now, mediocre arts & sciences programs are holding it back, as is relative stagnation at the law school. Wise deployment of resources to raise median ACT/SATs and LSATs, and to recruit/retain top faculty would go a long way towards putting the bloom back on the rose.

I agree entirely that UC should focus on building up our weaknesses.

As for Miami, I don't believe that 5 million isn't a massive donation, especially when you're stretching it across what should be the largest college in the university. That 5M will disburse around 200 to 225K. That might barely pay for two full professor's chairs with no money left over for any type of scholarships or research funds. It certainly won't drive the entire humanities, social sciences and hard sciences departments to the next level. I would feel very comfortable having my kids major in History or Astronomy at a Big Ten school. I absolutely would advise them not to do so at Miami. And out of Miami and UC, I do think that UC is the better bet to raise it's A&S profile to the level of some of the Big Ten schools.

You can almost define a "good college" as one where you can major in history and still find a decent job after graduation b/c employers can make the assumption that you are smart and capable. Many ACT 30+ kids plan on liberal arts majors b/c it's virtually a given that they are going to get an advanced degree later; hence the importance of those programs for a university's reputation.

As for the Miami/ UC/Big Ten liberal arts comparison, that shouldn't even be a comparison. Miami will never be able to play at that level (renowned doctoral programs), and shouldn't even try, while UC might be able to reach that level if it can find the funding. However, it is realistic that Miami could bolster its undergrad liberal arts programs to the extent that it can compete with places like Kenyon & Oberlin for quality undergrads who missed out on an Ivy.
 
(This post was last modified: 09-19-2020 10:52 AM by Former Lurker.)
09-19-2020 10:50 AM
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RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-19-2020 10:09 AM)Former Lurker Wrote:  Miami has sort of lost its way. It's never going to be a major research university, but it hasn't exactly embraced its traditional identity as an undergraduate-focused arts & sciences college with quality undergraduate business and education colleges bolted on. Their arts and sciences programs received a massive gift (5 million?), and they might be able to find their groove again.

UC is playing in a bigger pond. Right now, mediocre arts & sciences programs are holding it back, as is relative stagnation at the law school. Wise deployment of resources to raise median ACT/SATs and LSATs, and to recruit/retain top faculty would go a long way towards putting the bloom back on the rose.
Several People have mentioned the Art and Science college. Sounds like for those who look at these types of things, it is a very obvious need.

So what are UC’s goals besides the comprehensive cancer center?
Is A&S On the list?

Where can I read about this? Is their a website or a five-year plan?

A&S - Are you more referring to history and literature, English?
What about the PhD programs in Biology and Chem etc? I’m guessing you’re saying they need improvement as well? I’m guessing those are not anywhere near big 10 level.

Funny you mention the law school. It is almost never even mentioned. Just never hear anything about it. Almost like it’s not even there.

Will Have to look into its rank.

College of Pharmacy is Solid. Not a big program but does it move the needle any?
 
09-19-2020 11:46 PM
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RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-19-2020 10:50 AM)Former Lurker Wrote:  
(09-19-2020 10:28 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-19-2020 10:09 AM)Former Lurker Wrote:  Miami has sort of lost its way. It's never going to be a major research university, but it hasn't exactly embraced its traditional identity as an undergraduate-focused arts & sciences college with quality undergraduate business and education colleges bolted on. Their arts and sciences programs received a massive gift (5 million?), and they might be able to find their groove again.

UC is playing in a bigger pond. Right now, mediocre arts & sciences programs are holding it back, as is relative stagnation at the law school. Wise deployment of resources to raise median ACT/SATs and LSATs, and to recruit/retain top faculty would go a long way towards putting the bloom back on the rose.

I agree entirely that UC should focus on building up our weaknesses.

As for Miami, I don't believe that 5 million isn't a massive donation, especially when you're stretching it across what should be the largest college in the university. That 5M will disburse around 200 to 225K. That might barely pay for two full professor's chairs with no money left over for any type of scholarships or research funds. It certainly won't drive the entire humanities, social sciences and hard sciences departments to the next level. I would feel very comfortable having my kids major in History or Astronomy at a Big Ten school. I absolutely would advise them not to do so at Miami. And out of Miami and UC, I do think that UC is the better bet to raise it's A&S profile to the level of some of the Big Ten schools.

You can almost define a "good college" as one where you can major in history and still find a decent job after graduation b/c employers can make the assumption that you are smart and capable. Many ACT 30+ kids plan on liberal arts majors b/c it's virtually a given that they are going to get an advanced degree later; hence the importance of those programs for a university's reputation.

As for the Miami/ UC/Big Ten liberal arts comparison, that shouldn't even be a comparison. Miami will never be able to play at that level (renowned doctoral programs), and shouldn't even try, while UC might be able to reach that level if it can find the funding. However, it is realistic that Miami could bolster its undergrad liberal arts programs to the extent that it can compete with places like Kenyon & Oberlin for quality undergrads who missed out on an Ivy.

Miami has never had anything in common with Oberlin or Kenyon and never will. Those are small (3000 and 1600 students respectively), nationally respected actual liberal arts colleges with admissions standards equivalent to schools like Northwestern or Cornell. Miami's a 17K public university with moderately selective admissions for a public school where over half the students major in business.

There's no amount of bolstering A&S that can turn them into Kenyon, and there's no amount of coming late to focusing on STEM and adding Ph.D programs that can ever turn them into a Big Ten school. Like I said above, Miami is in a very weird no-man's land of higher education, and I don't see their slide stopping any time soon.
 
09-20-2020 07:24 AM
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Post: #55
RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-20-2020 07:24 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-19-2020 10:50 AM)Former Lurker Wrote:  
(09-19-2020 10:28 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-19-2020 10:09 AM)Former Lurker Wrote:  Miami has sort of lost its way. It's never going to be a major research university, but it hasn't exactly embraced its traditional identity as an undergraduate-focused arts & sciences college with quality undergraduate business and education colleges bolted on. Their arts and sciences programs received a massive gift (5 million?), and they might be able to find their groove again.

UC is playing in a bigger pond. Right now, mediocre arts & sciences programs are holding it back, as is relative stagnation at the law school. Wise deployment of resources to raise median ACT/SATs and LSATs, and to recruit/retain top faculty would go a long way towards putting the bloom back on the rose.

I agree entirely that UC should focus on building up our weaknesses.

As for Miami, I don't believe that 5 million isn't a massive donation, especially when you're stretching it across what should be the largest college in the university. That 5M will disburse around 200 to 225K. That might barely pay for two full professor's chairs with no money left over for any type of scholarships or research funds. It certainly won't drive the entire humanities, social sciences and hard sciences departments to the next level. I would feel very comfortable having my kids major in History or Astronomy at a Big Ten school. I absolutely would advise them not to do so at Miami. And out of Miami and UC, I do think that UC is the better bet to raise it's A&S profile to the level of some of the Big Ten schools.

You can almost define a "good college" as one where you can major in history and still find a decent job after graduation b/c employers can make the assumption that you are smart and capable. Many ACT 30+ kids plan on liberal arts majors b/c it's virtually a given that they are going to get an advanced degree later; hence the importance of those programs for a university's reputation.

As for the Miami/ UC/Big Ten liberal arts comparison, that shouldn't even be a comparison. Miami will never be able to play at that level (renowned doctoral programs), and shouldn't even try, while UC might be able to reach that level if it can find the funding. However, it is realistic that Miami could bolster its undergrad liberal arts programs to the extent that it can compete with places like Kenyon & Oberlin for quality undergrads who missed out on an Ivy.

Miami has never had anything in common with Oberlin or Kenyon and never will. Those are small (3000 and 1600 students respectively), nationally respected actual liberal arts colleges with admissions standards equivalent to schools like Northwestern or Cornell. Miami's a 17K public university with moderately selective admissions for a public school where over half the students major in business.

There's no amount of bolstering A&S that can turn them into Kenyon, and there's no amount of coming late to focusing on STEM and adding Ph.D programs that can ever turn them into a Big Ten school. Like I said above, Miami is in a very weird no-man's land of higher education, and I don't see their slide stopping any time soon.

They need to play to their strengths, and quit trying to be something they aren't. And one huge strength it has over typical directional schools is a large, affluent alumni base.

Which prompts the question: Is it really a good idea for UC to ape Ohio State instead of just investing more in its traditional strengths of CCM, Engineering, DAAP, Medicine & Law?
 
(This post was last modified: 09-20-2020 11:33 AM by Former Lurker.)
09-20-2020 11:31 AM
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Bearcat 1985 Offline
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Post: #56
RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-20-2020 11:31 AM)Former Lurker Wrote:  
(09-20-2020 07:24 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-19-2020 10:50 AM)Former Lurker Wrote:  
(09-19-2020 10:28 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-19-2020 10:09 AM)Former Lurker Wrote:  Miami has sort of lost its way. It's never going to be a major research university, but it hasn't exactly embraced its traditional identity as an undergraduate-focused arts & sciences college with quality undergraduate business and education colleges bolted on. Their arts and sciences programs received a massive gift (5 million?), and they might be able to find their groove again.

UC is playing in a bigger pond. Right now, mediocre arts & sciences programs are holding it back, as is relative stagnation at the law school. Wise deployment of resources to raise median ACT/SATs and LSATs, and to recruit/retain top faculty would go a long way towards putting the bloom back on the rose.

I agree entirely that UC should focus on building up our weaknesses.

As for Miami, I don't believe that 5 million isn't a massive donation, especially when you're stretching it across what should be the largest college in the university. That 5M will disburse around 200 to 225K. That might barely pay for two full professor's chairs with no money left over for any type of scholarships or research funds. It certainly won't drive the entire humanities, social sciences and hard sciences departments to the next level. I would feel very comfortable having my kids major in History or Astronomy at a Big Ten school. I absolutely would advise them not to do so at Miami. And out of Miami and UC, I do think that UC is the better bet to raise it's A&S profile to the level of some of the Big Ten schools.

You can almost define a "good college" as one where you can major in history and still find a decent job after graduation b/c employers can make the assumption that you are smart and capable. Many ACT 30+ kids plan on liberal arts majors b/c it's virtually a given that they are going to get an advanced degree later; hence the importance of those programs for a university's reputation.

As for the Miami/ UC/Big Ten liberal arts comparison, that shouldn't even be a comparison. Miami will never be able to play at that level (renowned doctoral programs), and shouldn't even try, while UC might be able to reach that level if it can find the funding. However, it is realistic that Miami could bolster its undergrad liberal arts programs to the extent that it can compete with places like Kenyon & Oberlin for quality undergrads who missed out on an Ivy.

Miami has never had anything in common with Oberlin or Kenyon and never will. Those are small (3000 and 1600 students respectively), nationally respected actual liberal arts colleges with admissions standards equivalent to schools like Northwestern or Cornell. Miami's a 17K public university with moderately selective admissions for a public school where over half the students major in business.

There's no amount of bolstering A&S that can turn them into Kenyon, and there's no amount of coming late to focusing on STEM and adding Ph.D programs that can ever turn them into a Big Ten school. Like I said above, Miami is in a very weird no-man's land of higher education, and I don't see their slide stopping any time soon.

They need to play to their strengths, and quit trying to be something they aren't. And one huge strength it has over typical directional schools is a large, affluent alumni base.

Which prompts the question: Is it really a good idea for UC to ape Ohio State instead of just investing more in its traditional strengths of CCM, Engineering, DAAP, Medicine & Law?

Regarding Miami, I just have a hard time defining their strengths. They're not a liberal arts college. They're not a flagship research university. Their alumni base isn't all that. Despite how they like to portray themselves, they seem to be good at churning out a lot of corporate middle-managers. Their endowment is actually slightly smaller than OU's, and their last multi-year campaign was a failure. So, what are they? What are they other than a more selective version of Bowling Green that's found a way to market itself in the Chicago suburbs to preppy conservative kids who don't get into UofI? How do you build on that? Where do you go with it? I think the academic and reputational stagnation and decline they're experiencing is inevitable. Hell, it was literally written in stone the moment that the state of Ohio decided to let Ohio State compete with them on an equal footing as selective undergraduate colleges.

Regarding Cincinnati, I don't think it's necessarily aping Ohio State as much as it's doing the things necessary to achieve what I think are the long term strategic goals that everyone in these discussions agrees on and thinks are attainable: making UC the undisputed second comprehensive research university in Ohio and getting into the AAU. We can't do either unless we both continue to build upon our strengths while making a firm commitment to address our fundamental weakness in A&S. I understand that using OSU as the aspirational model for this is going to rub some people the wrong way. So let's take those emotions out of the debate and just say we need to look at Minnesota or Wisconsin or Texas and do the things necessary to move in their direction. In fact, Pitt would be a perfect model in this regard.
 
(This post was last modified: 09-20-2020 12:28 PM by Bearcat 1985.)
09-20-2020 11:45 AM
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Post: #57
RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-20-2020 11:45 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-20-2020 11:31 AM)Former Lurker Wrote:  
(09-20-2020 07:24 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-19-2020 10:50 AM)Former Lurker Wrote:  
(09-19-2020 10:28 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  I agree entirely that UC should focus on building up our weaknesses.

As for Miami, I don't believe that 5 million isn't a massive donation, especially when you're stretching it across what should be the largest college in the university. That 5M will disburse around 200 to 225K. That might barely pay for two full professor's chairs with no money left over for any type of scholarships or research funds. It certainly won't drive the entire humanities, social sciences and hard sciences departments to the next level. I would feel very comfortable having my kids major in History or Astronomy at a Big Ten school. I absolutely would advise them not to do so at Miami. And out of Miami and UC, I do think that UC is the better bet to raise it's A&S profile to the level of some of the Big Ten schools.

You can almost define a "good college" as one where you can major in history and still find a decent job after graduation b/c employers can make the assumption that you are smart and capable. Many ACT 30+ kids plan on liberal arts majors b/c it's virtually a given that they are going to get an advanced degree later; hence the importance of those programs for a university's reputation.

As for the Miami/ UC/Big Ten liberal arts comparison, that shouldn't even be a comparison. Miami will never be able to play at that level (renowned doctoral programs), and shouldn't even try, while UC might be able to reach that level if it can find the funding. However, it is realistic that Miami could bolster its undergrad liberal arts programs to the extent that it can compete with places like Kenyon & Oberlin for quality undergrads who missed out on an Ivy.

Miami has never had anything in common with Oberlin or Kenyon and never will. Those are small (3000 and 1600 students respectively), nationally respected actual liberal arts colleges with admissions standards equivalent to schools like Northwestern or Cornell. Miami's a 17K public university with moderately selective admissions for a public school where over half the students major in business.

There's no amount of bolstering A&S that can turn them into Kenyon, and there's no amount of coming late to focusing on STEM and adding Ph.D programs that can ever turn them into a Big Ten school. Like I said above, Miami is in a very weird no-man's land of higher education, and I don't see their slide stopping any time soon.

They need to play to their strengths, and quit trying to be something they aren't. And one huge strength it has over typical directional schools is a large, affluent alumni base.

Which prompts the question: Is it really a good idea for UC to ape Ohio State instead of just investing more in its traditional strengths of CCM, Engineering, DAAP, Medicine & Law?

Regarding Miami, I just have a hard time defining their strengths. They're not a liberal arts college. They're not a flagship research university. Their alumni base isn't all that. Despite how they like to portray themselves, they seem to be good at churning out a lot of corporate middle-managers. Their endowment is actually slightly smaller than OU's, and their last multi-year campaign was a failure. So, what are they? What are they other than a more selective version of Bowling Green that's found a way to market itself in the Chicago suburbs to preppy conservative kids who don't get into UofI? How do you build on that? Where do you go with it? I think the academic and reputational stagnation and decline they're experiencing is inevitable. Hell, it was literally written in stone the moment that the state of Ohio decided to let Ohio State compete with them on an equal footing as selective undergraduate colleges.

Regarding Cincinnati, I don't think it's necessarily aping Ohio State as much as it's doing the things necessary to achieve what I think are the long term strategic goals that everyone in these discussions agrees on and thinks are attainable: making UC the undisputed second comprehensive research university in Ohio and getting into the AAU. We can't do either unless we both continue to build upon our strengths while making a firm commitment to address our fundamental weakness in A&S. I understand that using OSU as the aspirational model for this is going to rub some people the wrong way. So let's take those emotions out of the debate and just say we need to look at Minnesota or Wisconsin or Texas and do the things necessary to move in their direction. In fact, Pitt would be a perfect model in this regard.

Ideally:

OSU = UVa
UC = VT
Miami = William & Mary

OSU is very close to UVa. How close is UC to VT? Miami has been slipping, it is not as close to W & M today as it was 20 years ago.
 
09-20-2020 03:35 PM
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BearcatMan Offline
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Post: #58
RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-20-2020 03:35 PM)Former Lurker Wrote:  
(09-20-2020 11:45 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-20-2020 11:31 AM)Former Lurker Wrote:  
(09-20-2020 07:24 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-19-2020 10:50 AM)Former Lurker Wrote:  You can almost define a "good college" as one where you can major in history and still find a decent job after graduation b/c employers can make the assumption that you are smart and capable. Many ACT 30+ kids plan on liberal arts majors b/c it's virtually a given that they are going to get an advanced degree later; hence the importance of those programs for a university's reputation.

As for the Miami/ UC/Big Ten liberal arts comparison, that shouldn't even be a comparison. Miami will never be able to play at that level (renowned doctoral programs), and shouldn't even try, while UC might be able to reach that level if it can find the funding. However, it is realistic that Miami could bolster its undergrad liberal arts programs to the extent that it can compete with places like Kenyon & Oberlin for quality undergrads who missed out on an Ivy.

Miami has never had anything in common with Oberlin or Kenyon and never will. Those are small (3000 and 1600 students respectively), nationally respected actual liberal arts colleges with admissions standards equivalent to schools like Northwestern or Cornell. Miami's a 17K public university with moderately selective admissions for a public school where over half the students major in business.

There's no amount of bolstering A&S that can turn them into Kenyon, and there's no amount of coming late to focusing on STEM and adding Ph.D programs that can ever turn them into a Big Ten school. Like I said above, Miami is in a very weird no-man's land of higher education, and I don't see their slide stopping any time soon.

They need to play to their strengths, and quit trying to be something they aren't. And one huge strength it has over typical directional schools is a large, affluent alumni base.

Which prompts the question: Is it really a good idea for UC to ape Ohio State instead of just investing more in its traditional strengths of CCM, Engineering, DAAP, Medicine & Law?

Regarding Miami, I just have a hard time defining their strengths. They're not a liberal arts college. They're not a flagship research university. Their alumni base isn't all that. Despite how they like to portray themselves, they seem to be good at churning out a lot of corporate middle-managers. Their endowment is actually slightly smaller than OU's, and their last multi-year campaign was a failure. So, what are they? What are they other than a more selective version of Bowling Green that's found a way to market itself in the Chicago suburbs to preppy conservative kids who don't get into UofI? How do you build on that? Where do you go with it? I think the academic and reputational stagnation and decline they're experiencing is inevitable. Hell, it was literally written in stone the moment that the state of Ohio decided to let Ohio State compete with them on an equal footing as selective undergraduate colleges.

Regarding Cincinnati, I don't think it's necessarily aping Ohio State as much as it's doing the things necessary to achieve what I think are the long term strategic goals that everyone in these discussions agrees on and thinks are attainable: making UC the undisputed second comprehensive research university in Ohio and getting into the AAU. We can't do either unless we both continue to build upon our strengths while making a firm commitment to address our fundamental weakness in A&S. I understand that using OSU as the aspirational model for this is going to rub some people the wrong way. So let's take those emotions out of the debate and just say we need to look at Minnesota or Wisconsin or Texas and do the things necessary to move in their direction. In fact, Pitt would be a perfect model in this regard.

Ideally:

OSU = UVa
UC = VT
Miami = William & Mary

OSU is very close to UVa. How close is UC to VT? Miami has been slipping, it is not as close to W & M today as it was 20 years ago.

I've always liked the Virginia system as a corrollary for what Ohio could be should we continue the way we are currently organized...two public academic engines (UVA and VT), one huge endowment with an extremely solid research drive in an urban environment (VCU), one highly reputable public LA/UG Research institution (W&M), and then large mostly UG focused research institutions in the major population areas (JMU, ODU, and GMU). To me, the comparison can push even further than what you've said.

OSU = UVA
UC = VCU (VERY similar institutions at this point...we're far off from VT, and likely will never get there based on the representative disparity in the State House.)
Miami = William and Mary
Kent State/Akron = George Mason
OU = JMU
BGSU/Toledo = ODU
 
09-22-2020 10:23 AM
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Captain Bearcat Offline
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Post: #59
RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-22-2020 10:23 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(09-20-2020 03:35 PM)Former Lurker Wrote:  
(09-20-2020 11:45 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-20-2020 11:31 AM)Former Lurker Wrote:  
(09-20-2020 07:24 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  Miami has never had anything in common with Oberlin or Kenyon and never will. Those are small (3000 and 1600 students respectively), nationally respected actual liberal arts colleges with admissions standards equivalent to schools like Northwestern or Cornell. Miami's a 17K public university with moderately selective admissions for a public school where over half the students major in business.

There's no amount of bolstering A&S that can turn them into Kenyon, and there's no amount of coming late to focusing on STEM and adding Ph.D programs that can ever turn them into a Big Ten school. Like I said above, Miami is in a very weird no-man's land of higher education, and I don't see their slide stopping any time soon.

They need to play to their strengths, and quit trying to be something they aren't. And one huge strength it has over typical directional schools is a large, affluent alumni base.

Which prompts the question: Is it really a good idea for UC to ape Ohio State instead of just investing more in its traditional strengths of CCM, Engineering, DAAP, Medicine & Law?

Regarding Miami, I just have a hard time defining their strengths. They're not a liberal arts college. They're not a flagship research university. Their alumni base isn't all that. Despite how they like to portray themselves, they seem to be good at churning out a lot of corporate middle-managers. Their endowment is actually slightly smaller than OU's, and their last multi-year campaign was a failure. So, what are they? What are they other than a more selective version of Bowling Green that's found a way to market itself in the Chicago suburbs to preppy conservative kids who don't get into UofI? How do you build on that? Where do you go with it? I think the academic and reputational stagnation and decline they're experiencing is inevitable. Hell, it was literally written in stone the moment that the state of Ohio decided to let Ohio State compete with them on an equal footing as selective undergraduate colleges.

Regarding Cincinnati, I don't think it's necessarily aping Ohio State as much as it's doing the things necessary to achieve what I think are the long term strategic goals that everyone in these discussions agrees on and thinks are attainable: making UC the undisputed second comprehensive research university in Ohio and getting into the AAU. We can't do either unless we both continue to build upon our strengths while making a firm commitment to address our fundamental weakness in A&S. I understand that using OSU as the aspirational model for this is going to rub some people the wrong way. So let's take those emotions out of the debate and just say we need to look at Minnesota or Wisconsin or Texas and do the things necessary to move in their direction. In fact, Pitt would be a perfect model in this regard.

Ideally:

OSU = UVa
UC = VT
Miami = William & Mary

OSU is very close to UVa. How close is UC to VT? Miami has been slipping, it is not as close to W & M today as it was 20 years ago.

I've always liked the Virginia system as a corrollary for what Ohio could be should we continue the way we are currently organized...two public academic engines (UVA and VT), one huge endowment with an extremely solid research drive in an urban environment (VCU), one highly reputable public LA/UG Research institution (W&M), and then large mostly UG focused research institutions in the major population areas (JMU, ODU, and GMU). To me, the comparison can push even further than what you've said.

OSU = UVA
UC = VCU (VERY similar institutions at this point...we're far off from VT, and likely will never get there based on the representative disparity in the State House.)
Miami = William and Mary
Kent State/Akron = George Mason
OU = JMU
BGSU/Toledo = ODU

The comparison is tempting. Especially with William & Mary and Miami being the only real comparables for each other in the country. And especially for UC fans who want UC to be regarded like Virginia Tech.

However, our system is fundamentally different because of the huge difference in the size of the flagship: Ohio State has 61,000 students. UVA has 25,000.

Ohio is about 30% bigger than Virginia, so you would expect UVA to about the size of UC if the systems were comparable.

What is the Ohio equivalent of small liberal arts public colleges like Longwood, University of Mary Washington, and Christopher Newport? They don't exist.



Also, the systems are fundamentally affected by the private schools in the state. Xavier = Richmond. Christendom = Stuebenville. But other than that?

What is the Virginia equivalent of Case Western? It doesn't exist.

What is the Virginia equivalent of Dayton? It doesn't exist.

What is the Ohio equivalent of Liberty? A large, mediocre private school with no research focus? It doesn't exist.

It seems like every little Ohio town has a university. Ohio has three times as many private schools with over 2,000 students as Virginia does, and none of the Virginia ones are highly ranked. What is the Virginia equivalent of Oberlin, Kenyon, Baldwin-Wallace, Dennison, John Carroll, etc? There's Washington & Lee, but it's tiny.
 
(This post was last modified: 09-22-2020 03:01 PM by Captain Bearcat.)
09-22-2020 03:00 PM
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Post: #60
RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-22-2020 03:00 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(09-22-2020 10:23 AM)BearcatMan Wrote:  
(09-20-2020 03:35 PM)Former Lurker Wrote:  
(09-20-2020 11:45 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-20-2020 11:31 AM)Former Lurker Wrote:  They need to play to their strengths, and quit trying to be something they aren't. And one huge strength it has over typical directional schools is a large, affluent alumni base.

Which prompts the question: Is it really a good idea for UC to ape Ohio State instead of just investing more in its traditional strengths of CCM, Engineering, DAAP, Medicine & Law?

Regarding Miami, I just have a hard time defining their strengths. They're not a liberal arts college. They're not a flagship research university. Their alumni base isn't all that. Despite how they like to portray themselves, they seem to be good at churning out a lot of corporate middle-managers. Their endowment is actually slightly smaller than OU's, and their last multi-year campaign was a failure. So, what are they? What are they other than a more selective version of Bowling Green that's found a way to market itself in the Chicago suburbs to preppy conservative kids who don't get into UofI? How do you build on that? Where do you go with it? I think the academic and reputational stagnation and decline they're experiencing is inevitable. Hell, it was literally written in stone the moment that the state of Ohio decided to let Ohio State compete with them on an equal footing as selective undergraduate colleges.

Regarding Cincinnati, I don't think it's necessarily aping Ohio State as much as it's doing the things necessary to achieve what I think are the long term strategic goals that everyone in these discussions agrees on and thinks are attainable: making UC the undisputed second comprehensive research university in Ohio and getting into the AAU. We can't do either unless we both continue to build upon our strengths while making a firm commitment to address our fundamental weakness in A&S. I understand that using OSU as the aspirational model for this is going to rub some people the wrong way. So let's take those emotions out of the debate and just say we need to look at Minnesota or Wisconsin or Texas and do the things necessary to move in their direction. In fact, Pitt would be a perfect model in this regard.

Ideally:

OSU = UVa
UC = VT
Miami = William & Mary

OSU is very close to UVa. How close is UC to VT? Miami has been slipping, it is not as close to W & M today as it was 20 years ago.

I've always liked the Virginia system as a corrollary for what Ohio could be should we continue the way we are currently organized...two public academic engines (UVA and VT), one huge endowment with an extremely solid research drive in an urban environment (VCU), one highly reputable public LA/UG Research institution (W&M), and then large mostly UG focused research institutions in the major population areas (JMU, ODU, and GMU). To me, the comparison can push even further than what you've said.

OSU = UVA
UC = VCU (VERY similar institutions at this point...we're far off from VT, and likely will never get there based on the representative disparity in the State House.)
Miami = William and Mary
Kent State/Akron = George Mason
OU = JMU
BGSU/Toledo = ODU

The comparison is tempting. Especially with William & Mary and Miami being the only real comparables for each other in the country. And especially for UC fans who want UC to be regarded like Virginia Tech.

However, our system is fundamentally different because of the huge difference in the size of the flagship: Ohio State has 61,000 students. UVA has 25,000.

Ohio is about 30% bigger than Virginia, so you would expect UVA to about the size of UC if the systems were comparable.

What is the Ohio equivalent of small liberal arts public colleges like Longwood, University of Mary Washington, and Christopher Newport? They don't exist.



Also, the systems are fundamentally affected by the private schools in the state. Xavier = Richmond. Christendom = Stuebenville. But other than that?

What is the Virginia equivalent of Case Western? It doesn't exist.

What is the Virginia equivalent of Dayton? It doesn't exist.

What is the Ohio equivalent of Liberty? A large, mediocre private school with no research focus? It doesn't exist.

It seems like every little Ohio town has a university. Ohio has three times as many private schools with over 2,000 students as Virginia does, and none of the Virginia ones are highly ranked. What is the Virginia equivalent of Oberlin, Kenyon, Baldwin-Wallace, Dennison, John Carroll, etc? There's Washington & Lee, but it's tiny.

The number of colleges and universities in this state is ridiculous. Tiffin, Ohio has two colleges in their city and 24 others within a 50 mile radius.
 
09-22-2020 03:25 PM
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