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UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
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ZCat Offline
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RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-14-2020 12:26 PM)stpnum4 Wrote:  
(09-14-2020 12:11 PM)colohank Wrote:  
(09-14-2020 11:39 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(09-14-2020 11:31 AM)geef Wrote:  
(09-14-2020 09:46 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  Money is not the issue. Ohio has about as equitable a funding model as any state in the country. Up until a few years ago, it was literally based solely on a head count. In other words, a student at Ohio's highest ranked and only public AAU university counted for the same amount of state support as one at Shawnee State. Personally, I think that was ludicrous. It would be like California funding Berkeley or UCLA no differently than the most commuter dominated Cal State campus. Today, there are some slight bonuses for retention and graduation rates that OSU clearly benefits from as the state's most selective school, but it doesn't really tilt the scales in their direction in any fundamental manner.

What is the issue is student selectivity and national reputation, and OSU clearly benefits in these two matrix in a way that no other Ohio public can compete with. They have the big time AAU/billion dollar research budget and the cache and reputation that brings in the peer assessment score, and they have an average ACT of 30 and reject half their applicants. Those two factors weigh heavily in the final ranking.

Everyone else being down is just a factor of Ohio having an overbuilt and redundant system where all the other schools not named OSU cannibalize each other. OSU has the endowment, demand from potential students and AAU status to float above the fray. It's why I would like to see a much more structured system that does fund campuses differently based on their roles. Yes, that would mean formally acknowledging OSU's "flagship" status and probably giving them a separate funding model from the rest of the system (which is what they had until the 1960s anyways), but it would also mean separating UC from the rest of the pack in terms of formally recognized role and funding model.

Great explanation. I'd also add that changing demographics exacerbates the cannibalizing. Ohio schools simply cannot be selective because the number of high school graduates has not grown appreciably for years. Compare this to California, for example, where UC schools like Merced, Riverside, and Santa Cruz have shot up the rankings in part because they've suddenly become quite selective. Same holds true for many of the publics in Texas and Florida.....

A few months I was looking at the number of applicants the Florida schools get every year and was floored. It’s not just within the state, they get tens of thousands of applicants every year from kids wanting to escape the weather in the Midwest and East Coast. UCF, USF, FIU, and FAU all accept less than 50% of their applicants because they have so many.

I understand that the Florida publics have some kind of quota system in place to ensure that each school accepts a more representative share of the state's high school grads. What they don't want is for all of the elite kids to gravitate toward the flagship and all of the more average students to end up at the lesser schools. A lot of qualified kids apply to all schools with the assurance that they'll be accepted at one of them, but personal preference plays a minor role.

As regards UC, the drop in ranking is a damned shame. The school needs to strive for greater selectivity. Sports-minded folks complain about Nancy Zimpher, but at least she knew that institutional reputations are built on quality, not quantity.

At UC there is always a tension between aspiring to be a globally/nationally recognized research university and its founding mission of educating the people that make up the Cincinnati region. This is detailed extensively in David Stradling's book "In Service to the City - A History of the University of Cincinnati."

I suspect the drop in US News ranking directly cocorrelates to the significant increase in student population (and thus less selectivity) that the occurred in the last 10 years +. UC has a beautiful campus, but that costs money/debt. I'm not an insider, but its pretty obvious that you need more tuition paying students to service that debt if you are trying to operate a sustainable model.
I have always liked our mission of being a school for first in the family to attend college. That said, would be nice to balance that with being more selective in some way.

Someone else had mentioned us not offering enough to top academic kids. I have never had the feeling that we "OWN THE CITY", and we are AGGRESSIVE as we should be to get as many of the top kids as we can. We should be all over high schools, meeting with Natl Honor Soc students, aggressive with all top 5-10 kids, etc. I am not sure of rules or standards. I am long out of high school, so maybe this is done more than I realize. Maybe someone else can respond.
 
(This post was last modified: 09-14-2020 11:52 PM by ZCat.)
09-14-2020 11:50 PM
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RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
With no disrespect to President Pinto. there needs to be accountability to the board of trustees for a 17 place drop in the U.S. News rankings and analysis of why this occurred.

Maybe the board was complicit in encouraging enrollment growth at the expense of student selectivity for budgetary reasons. If UC's scholarship value offering for top undergraduates is no longer competitive with the likes of an Alabama, that needs to be addressed if we hope to see improvement.

UC's elite programs in DAAP and CCM have likely always been more highly rated than selected programs at any of the other Ohio publics. But those are such small enrollment programs relative to the total undergraduate population that they hardly move the needle on the overall academic reputation of the institution.

We can always argue the accuracy of U.S. News rankings but as someone else shared, parents treat that survey like an anointed word and as long as that's the case UC better invest in strategies designed to improve its academic stature and start moving the arrow up again. It may matter to other university presidents when P5 expansion resumes. It should matter to all of us who are alumni who benefit when our university grows in academic stature and reputation.

Finally, Ohio government leaders need to wake up and smell the coffee on the value of having two viable, comprehensive research universities in OSU and UC and realign other regional state schools to focus primarily on undergraduate teaching, much like California does with their Cal State system. That would require a fundamental redistribution from the pork barrel in the legislature and I don't see either party willing to tackle that. Done right though, both OSU and UC would get more resources, just as Cal and UCLA do in their state.
 
09-15-2020 07:45 AM
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Bearcat 1985 Offline
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RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-14-2020 09:33 PM)ZCat Wrote:  
(09-14-2020 09:46 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-14-2020 09:35 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(09-14-2020 09:26 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-14-2020 09:19 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  #42 Case Western
#53 tOSU
#103 Miami University
#133 Dayton
#143 UC
#176 Ohio University
#217 Kent State
#258 Bowling Green State University
#272 Akron
#298-389 Toledo

It looks like Miami has dropped about 10 spots and fallen out of the top 100. Despite UC's slip, I wonder if the gap between it and Miami is the smallest it's ever been. I seem to remember in the late 90s early 00s that Miami was at least within striking distance of OSU (50-something versus 60-something). Today, they can't even make the argument that they're in the same discussion academically.

I realize I was the one who started this thread, but as I just looked at the Ohio rankings, it is quite noticeable everyone but Ohio State is down. Really makes me question the state funding issue and whether a disproportionate share of the money is staying in Columbus and not distributed to the rest of the schools.

Money is not the issue. Ohio has about as equitable a funding model as any state in the country. Up until a few years ago, it was literally based solely on a head count. In other words, a student at Ohio's highest ranked and only public AAU university counted for the same amount of state support as one at Shawnee State. Personally, I think that was ludicrous. It would be like California funding Berkeley or UCLA no differently than the most commuter dominated Cal State campus. Today, there are some slight bonuses for retention and graduation rates that OSU clearly benefits from as the state's most selective school, but it doesn't really tilt the scales in their direction in any fundamental manner.

What is the issue is student selectivity and national reputation, and OSU clearly benefits in these two matrix in a way that no other Ohio public can compete with. They have the big time AAU/billion dollar research budget and the cache and reputation that brings in the peer assessment score, and they have an average ACT of 30 and reject half their applicants. Those two factors weigh heavily in the final ranking.

Everyone else being down is just a factor of Ohio having an overbuilt and redundant system where all the other schools not named OSU cannibalize each other. OSU has the endowment, demand from potential students and AAU status to float above the fray. It's why I would like to see a much more structured system that does fund campuses differently based on their roles. Yes, that would mean formally acknowledging OSU's "flagship" status and probably giving them a separate funding model from the rest of the system (which is what they had until the 1960s anyways), but it would also mean separating UC from the rest of the pack in terms of formally recognized role and funding model.

"a much more structured system that does fund campuses differently based on their roles." Is anything like this on the horizon? Creative solutions in the works??

Unfortunately, I doubt it. Ohio's political culture makes it difficult. Ohio had a structured system before the mid 60s, but Jim Rhodes and his buddies in Oxford scrapped it in order to try and take OSU down. Now, there's a culture where every school thinks that if it just adds on a few doctoral programs it can turn itself into OSU. Just look at the debacle that happened at Akron.

If I were truly King of the Forest, I would cut a deal with OSU to cap their freshman class sizes, which are currently over 7K. Give them their separate funding model (you're going to have to make up for their lost revenue) and role in the system. In exchange, they'd limit their freshman classes to 6K (which would shoot up their selectivity to Michigan levels) and flush out a thousand well qualified kids a year for the rest of the system in an era of declining enrollments. UC would probably be first choice for the best of that group, and you'd set the precedent that different schools should have different roles with UC being the obvious and only choice to be that other comprehensive research university with its own funding model.
 
(This post was last modified: 09-15-2020 08:32 AM by Bearcat 1985.)
09-15-2020 08:31 AM
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RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-15-2020 08:31 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-14-2020 09:33 PM)ZCat Wrote:  
(09-14-2020 09:46 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-14-2020 09:35 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(09-14-2020 09:26 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  It looks like Miami has dropped about 10 spots and fallen out of the top 100. Despite UC's slip, I wonder if the gap between it and Miami is the smallest it's ever been. I seem to remember in the late 90s early 00s that Miami was at least within striking distance of OSU (50-something versus 60-something). Today, they can't even make the argument that they're in the same discussion academically.

I realize I was the one who started this thread, but as I just looked at the Ohio rankings, it is quite noticeable everyone but Ohio State is down. Really makes me question the state funding issue and whether a disproportionate share of the money is staying in Columbus and not distributed to the rest of the schools.

Money is not the issue. Ohio has about as equitable a funding model as any state in the country. Up until a few years ago, it was literally based solely on a head count. In other words, a student at Ohio's highest ranked and only public AAU university counted for the same amount of state support as one at Shawnee State. Personally, I think that was ludicrous. It would be like California funding Berkeley or UCLA no differently than the most commuter dominated Cal State campus. Today, there are some slight bonuses for retention and graduation rates that OSU clearly benefits from as the state's most selective school, but it doesn't really tilt the scales in their direction in any fundamental manner.

What is the issue is student selectivity and national reputation, and OSU clearly benefits in these two matrix in a way that no other Ohio public can compete with. They have the big time AAU/billion dollar research budget and the cache and reputation that brings in the peer assessment score, and they have an average ACT of 30 and reject half their applicants. Those two factors weigh heavily in the final ranking.

Everyone else being down is just a factor of Ohio having an overbuilt and redundant system where all the other schools not named OSU cannibalize each other. OSU has the endowment, demand from potential students and AAU status to float above the fray. It's why I would like to see a much more structured system that does fund campuses differently based on their roles. Yes, that would mean formally acknowledging OSU's "flagship" status and probably giving them a separate funding model from the rest of the system (which is what they had until the 1960s anyways), but it would also mean separating UC from the rest of the pack in terms of formally recognized role and funding model.

"a much more structured system that does fund campuses differently based on their roles." Is anything like this on the horizon? Creative solutions in the works??

Unfortunately, I doubt it. Ohio's political culture makes it difficult. Ohio had a structured system before the mid 60s, but Jim Rhodes and his buddies in Oxford scrapped it in order to try and take OSU down. Now, there's a culture where every school thinks that if it just adds on a few doctoral programs it can turn itself into OSU. Just look at the debacle that happened at Akron.

If I were truly King of the Forest, I would cut a deal with OSU to cap their freshman class sizes, which are currently over 7K. Give them their separate funding model (you're going to have to make up for their lost revenue) and role in the system. In exchange, they'd limit their freshman classes to 6K (which would shoot up their selectivity to Michigan levels) and flush out a thousand well qualified kids a year for the rest of the system in an era of declining enrollments. UC would probably be first choice for the best of that group, and you'd set the precedent that different schools should have different roles with UC being the obvious and only choice to be that other comprehensive research university with its own funding model.

The problem with that plan is that hundreds of those 1,000 students who wanted to go to OSU would now go to Indiana, Pitt, Michigan State, etc. Then they'd be more likely to end up getting a job in Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, etc and depriving Ohio of the fruits of our excellent K-12 system.
 
09-15-2020 10:04 AM
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RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-14-2020 11:50 PM)ZCat Wrote:  I have always liked our mission of being a school for first in the family to attend college. That said, would be nice to balance that with being more selective in some way.

It can be done. One can look up I-71 for an example. OSU--despite their selectivity--has respectable numbers of first generation students, historically under represented minorities and Pell Grant students. The other "UC's" out in California also do an admirable job of balancing access with selectivity and excellence. What it takes is both the will and a whole lot of money. When OSU made the school tuition free for any Ohio resident whose family makes under 60K/year, they had to have the unrestricted endowment funds to put towards that goal. That's why--despite all the hate for OSU over sports and their annoying sea of t-shirt alumni--I do respect them as an institution and feel that they provide solid value to the citizens of Ohio. I can't say the same thing about the school in Oxford that seems to think its role in the universe is to be a safety school for rich, preppy kids from the Chicago suburbs.
 
09-15-2020 06:50 PM
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RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-15-2020 10:04 AM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(09-15-2020 08:31 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-14-2020 09:33 PM)ZCat Wrote:  
(09-14-2020 09:46 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-14-2020 09:35 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  I realize I was the one who started this thread, but as I just looked at the Ohio rankings, it is quite noticeable everyone but Ohio State is down. Really makes me question the state funding issue and whether a disproportionate share of the money is staying in Columbus and not distributed to the rest of the schools.

Money is not the issue. Ohio has about as equitable a funding model as any state in the country. Up until a few years ago, it was literally based solely on a head count. In other words, a student at Ohio's highest ranked and only public AAU university counted for the same amount of state support as one at Shawnee State. Personally, I think that was ludicrous. It would be like California funding Berkeley or UCLA no differently than the most commuter dominated Cal State campus. Today, there are some slight bonuses for retention and graduation rates that OSU clearly benefits from as the state's most selective school, but it doesn't really tilt the scales in their direction in any fundamental manner.

What is the issue is student selectivity and national reputation, and OSU clearly benefits in these two matrix in a way that no other Ohio public can compete with. They have the big time AAU/billion dollar research budget and the cache and reputation that brings in the peer assessment score, and they have an average ACT of 30 and reject half their applicants. Those two factors weigh heavily in the final ranking.

Everyone else being down is just a factor of Ohio having an overbuilt and redundant system where all the other schools not named OSU cannibalize each other. OSU has the endowment, demand from potential students and AAU status to float above the fray. It's why I would like to see a much more structured system that does fund campuses differently based on their roles. Yes, that would mean formally acknowledging OSU's "flagship" status and probably giving them a separate funding model from the rest of the system (which is what they had until the 1960s anyways), but it would also mean separating UC from the rest of the pack in terms of formally recognized role and funding model.

"a much more structured system that does fund campuses differently based on their roles." Is anything like this on the horizon? Creative solutions in the works??

Unfortunately, I doubt it. Ohio's political culture makes it difficult. Ohio had a structured system before the mid 60s, but Jim Rhodes and his buddies in Oxford scrapped it in order to try and take OSU down. Now, there's a culture where every school thinks that if it just adds on a few doctoral programs it can turn itself into OSU. Just look at the debacle that happened at Akron.

If I were truly King of the Forest, I would cut a deal with OSU to cap their freshman class sizes, which are currently over 7K. Give them their separate funding model (you're going to have to make up for their lost revenue) and role in the system. In exchange, they'd limit their freshman classes to 6K (which would shoot up their selectivity to Michigan levels) and flush out a thousand well qualified kids a year for the rest of the system in an era of declining enrollments. UC would probably be first choice for the best of that group, and you'd set the precedent that different schools should have different roles with UC being the obvious and only choice to be that other comprehensive research university with its own funding model.

The problem with that plan is that hundreds of those 1,000 students who wanted to go to OSU would now go to Indiana, Pitt, Michigan State, etc. Then they'd be more likely to end up getting a job in Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, etc and depriving Ohio of the fruits of our excellent K-12 system.

I certainly think some might go out of state, but I think most would stay and attend one of the other state schools for tuition reasons. OSU might be more selective than IU or MSU (I'm not so sure about Pitt). but I doubt their rejects would end up getting any merit aid at IU or MSU to compensate for out of state tuition costs. And for the several hundred that would be looking for another Ohio public to attend, I think UC is exceptionally well positioned to be their first choice.
 
09-15-2020 06:53 PM
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RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
Excellent discussion!

The article linked at the top of the thread was basically bragging about UC co-op But ignoring the elephant in the room. The overall ranking.

Please post here if anybody hears what The board has to say and if they have a plan. You would think somebody in the media is asking these questions.

I also expect the needle to start pointing in the right direction again. I Actually plan on sending an email to the president.

President Pinto, that is. :) Don’t want to bring other politics talk in this thread.
 
09-15-2020 09:59 PM
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RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-15-2020 09:59 PM)ZCat Wrote:  Excellent discussion!

The article linked at the top of the thread was basically bragging about UC co-op But ignoring the elephant in the room. The overall ranking.

Please post here if anybody hears what The board has to say and if they have a plan. You would think somebody in the media is asking these questions.

I also expect the needle to start pointing in the right direction again. I Actually plan on sending an email to the president.

President Pinto, that is. :) Don’t want to bring other politics talk in this thread.

I noticed that too. I would hope that the internal discussions are a little more frank and self-critical than that rather puffy pr spin. One of the things that I really think hurts Miami is that their entire community--students, faculty, alumni and administrators--truly believe their own bull@#%^. They think everything is wonderful and Miami is just the greatest, most prestigious place on earth, and they have a forty year old book that nobody has cared about for thirty years to tell you so.
 
09-16-2020 08:45 AM
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RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-16-2020 08:45 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-15-2020 09:59 PM)ZCat Wrote:  Excellent discussion!

The article linked at the top of the thread was basically bragging about UC co-op But ignoring the elephant in the room. The overall ranking.

Please post here if anybody hears what The board has to say and if they have a plan. You would think somebody in the media is asking these questions.

I also expect the needle to start pointing in the right direction again. I Actually plan on sending an email to the president.

President Pinto, that is. :) Don’t want to bring other politics talk in this thread.

I noticed that too. I would hope that the internal discussions are a little more frank and self-critical than that rather puffy pr spin. One of the things that I really think hurts Miami is that their entire community--students, faculty, alumni and administrators--truly believe their own bull@#%^. They think everything is wonderful and Miami is just the greatest, most prestigious place on earth, and they have a forty year old book that nobody has cared about for thirty years to tell you so.

Bolded, an excellent observation. I think a lot of people at UC also believed Miami's bull for far too long and many allowed it to hurt our collective sense of self-esteem about the greatness of UC.

As a university, we've made amazing strides in that regard. Ono was far from a perfect president but he did win over lots of young fans with his social media exploits and presence around town. And the strides made on so many fronts during these past two decades have elevated the UC profile considerably.

Athletically, we as fans can take small steps that have a large collective impact for our school in the region. C-Paw lawn and house flags, license plates and garments need to become ubiquitous in southwestern Ohio. It all shapes the perception that this is UC country and MU, XU and OSU all operate on the periphery.
 
09-16-2020 10:56 AM
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RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-16-2020 08:45 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-15-2020 09:59 PM)ZCat Wrote:  Excellent discussion!

The article linked at the top of the thread was basically bragging about UC co-op But ignoring the elephant in the room. The overall ranking.

Please post here if anybody hears what The board has to say and if they have a plan. You would think somebody in the media is asking these questions.

I also expect the needle to start pointing in the right direction again. I Actually plan on sending an email to the president.

President Pinto, that is. :) Don’t want to bring other politics talk in this thread.

I noticed that too. I would hope that the internal discussions are a little more frank and self-critical than that rather puffy pr spin. One of the things that I really think hurts Miami is that their entire community--students, faculty, alumni and administrators--truly believe their own bull@#%^. They think everything is wonderful and Miami is just the greatest, most prestigious place on earth, and they have a forty year old book that nobody has cared about for thirty years to tell you so.

I was browsing on the Miami board and they have noticed the drop. They are even now behind Buffalo in the MAC. Those guys are usually a bunch of blowhards who believe they will one day return to what they achieved decades ago and briefly under BR. They aren't happy about their current status academically and athletically.
 
09-16-2020 11:23 AM
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RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-16-2020 11:23 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(09-16-2020 08:45 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-15-2020 09:59 PM)ZCat Wrote:  Excellent discussion!

The article linked at the top of the thread was basically bragging about UC co-op But ignoring the elephant in the room. The overall ranking.

Please post here if anybody hears what The board has to say and if they have a plan. You would think somebody in the media is asking these questions.

I also expect the needle to start pointing in the right direction again. I Actually plan on sending an email to the president.

President Pinto, that is. :) Don’t want to bring other politics talk in this thread.

I noticed that too. I would hope that the internal discussions are a little more frank and self-critical than that rather puffy pr spin. One of the things that I really think hurts Miami is that their entire community--students, faculty, alumni and administrators--truly believe their own bull@#%^. They think everything is wonderful and Miami is just the greatest, most prestigious place on earth, and they have a forty year old book that nobody has cared about for thirty years to tell you so.

I was browsing on the Miami board and they have noticed the drop. They are even now behind Buffalo in the MAC. Those guys are usually a bunch of blowhards who believe they will one day return to what they achieved decades ago and briefly under BR. They aren't happy about their current status academically and athletically.

You're right. They have noticed it, but they're still hung up on the public ivy nonsense, and that's the schools fault. The school drills that into them like an ISIS madras drills the Koran into its recruits. Every person that I have ever met from that school talks about that book. I mean even when the book was new and relevant, they and Vermont were only included as some kind of wild card to mix things up and not just simply plug in expected choices like Washington or Minnesota. I find it very telling that today--and really for the last twenty years--the only schools that still talk about the book are Miami and Vermont, and that's because they really have nothing else.
 
09-17-2020 07:19 AM
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RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-17-2020 07:19 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-16-2020 11:23 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(09-16-2020 08:45 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-15-2020 09:59 PM)ZCat Wrote:  Excellent discussion!

The article linked at the top of the thread was basically bragging about UC co-op But ignoring the elephant in the room. The overall ranking.

Please post here if anybody hears what The board has to say and if they have a plan. You would think somebody in the media is asking these questions.

I also expect the needle to start pointing in the right direction again. I Actually plan on sending an email to the president.

President Pinto, that is. :) Don’t want to bring other politics talk in this thread.

I noticed that too. I would hope that the internal discussions are a little more frank and self-critical than that rather puffy pr spin. One of the things that I really think hurts Miami is that their entire community--students, faculty, alumni and administrators--truly believe their own bull@#%^. They think everything is wonderful and Miami is just the greatest, most prestigious place on earth, and they have a forty year old book that nobody has cared about for thirty years to tell you so.

I was browsing on the Miami board and they have noticed the drop. They are even now behind Buffalo in the MAC. Those guys are usually a bunch of blowhards who believe they will one day return to what they achieved decades ago and briefly under BR. They aren't happy about their current status academically and athletically.

You're right. They have noticed it, but they're still hung up on the public ivy nonsense, and that's the schools fault. The school drills that into them like an ISIS madras drills the Koran into its recruits. Every person that I have ever met from that school talks about that book. I mean even when the book was new and relevant, they and Vermont were only included as some kind of wild card to mix things up and not just simply plug in expected choices like Washington or Minnesota. I find it very telling that today--and really for the last twenty years--the only schools that still talk about the book are Miami and Vermont, and that's because they really have nothing else.

Bolded, true. But from a public relations standpoint, you ride that horse as long as it's winning. Miami's enrollment seems to have held up for the most part while other regional state universities have suffered.

As CliftonAve stated above, even the Miami faithful have to be shaken by the latest news on their academic ranking slide though. This follows what are now decades of irrelevance on the basketball court and football field. And judging from attendance, one might think there was a Covid 19 outbreak in Oxford a decade ago that's still limiting the number of fans in the stands.

One other factor I've wondered about: younger people today seem to prefer urban settings. So the generation that longed for Miami's pastoral setting and took comfort in the cookie cutter Georgian architecture has moved on. Prospective students today seem to like Cincy's amazing, diverse architecture, Uptown setting, and the easy access to all our city offers from OTR to the Banks.
 
09-17-2020 07:42 AM
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CliftonAve Offline
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RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-17-2020 07:42 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  
(09-17-2020 07:19 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-16-2020 11:23 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(09-16-2020 08:45 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-15-2020 09:59 PM)ZCat Wrote:  Excellent discussion!

The article linked at the top of the thread was basically bragging about UC co-op But ignoring the elephant in the room. The overall ranking.

Please post here if anybody hears what The board has to say and if they have a plan. You would think somebody in the media is asking these questions.

I also expect the needle to start pointing in the right direction again. I Actually plan on sending an email to the president.

President Pinto, that is. :) Don’t want to bring other politics talk in this thread.

I noticed that too. I would hope that the internal discussions are a little more frank and self-critical than that rather puffy pr spin. One of the things that I really think hurts Miami is that their entire community--students, faculty, alumni and administrators--truly believe their own bull@#%^. They think everything is wonderful and Miami is just the greatest, most prestigious place on earth, and they have a forty year old book that nobody has cared about for thirty years to tell you so.

I was browsing on the Miami board and they have noticed the drop. They are even now behind Buffalo in the MAC. Those guys are usually a bunch of blowhards who believe they will one day return to what they achieved decades ago and briefly under BR. They aren't happy about their current status academically and athletically.

You're right. They have noticed it, but they're still hung up on the public ivy nonsense, and that's the schools fault. The school drills that into them like an ISIS madras drills the Koran into its recruits. Every person that I have ever met from that school talks about that book. I mean even when the book was new and relevant, they and Vermont were only included as some kind of wild card to mix things up and not just simply plug in expected choices like Washington or Minnesota. I find it very telling that today--and really for the last twenty years--the only schools that still talk about the book are Miami and Vermont, and that's because they really have nothing else.

Bolded, true. But from a public relations standpoint, you ride that horse as long as it's winning. Miami's enrollment seems to have held up for the most part while other regional state universities have suffered.

As CliftonAve stated above, even the Miami faithful have to be shaken by the latest news on their academic ranking slide though. This follows what are now decades of irrelevance on the basketball court and football field. And judging from attendance, one might think there was a Covid 19 outbreak in Oxford a decade ago that's still limiting the number of fans in the stands.

One other factor I've wondered about: younger people today seem to prefer urban settings. So the generation that longed for Miami's pastoral setting and took comfort in the cookie cutter Georgian architecture has moved on. Prospective students today seem to like Cincy's amazing, diverse architecture, Uptown setting, and the easy access to all our city offers from OTR to the Banks.

As 1985 has alluded to several times the past, Miami gets half their student body from the Chicagoland area today. I harp on an issue that a particular poster on this board brings up, but don't discount the impact having a football team that is routinely playing on ESPN, going to bowl games and being somewhat relevant (even if we are not on the scale of an OSU or Alabama) has on enrollment. There is no coincident that UC has gone from a school with roughly 35K students to nearly 47K in less than 15 years while Miami has stagnated and these other MAC schools have had significant declines.
 
09-17-2020 07:58 AM
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Bearcat 1985 Offline
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Post: #34
RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-17-2020 07:58 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(09-17-2020 07:42 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  
(09-17-2020 07:19 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-16-2020 11:23 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(09-16-2020 08:45 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  I noticed that too. I would hope that the internal discussions are a little more frank and self-critical than that rather puffy pr spin. One of the things that I really think hurts Miami is that their entire community--students, faculty, alumni and administrators--truly believe their own bull@#%^. They think everything is wonderful and Miami is just the greatest, most prestigious place on earth, and they have a forty year old book that nobody has cared about for thirty years to tell you so.

I was browsing on the Miami board and they have noticed the drop. They are even now behind Buffalo in the MAC. Those guys are usually a bunch of blowhards who believe they will one day return to what they achieved decades ago and briefly under BR. They aren't happy about their current status academically and athletically.

You're right. They have noticed it, but they're still hung up on the public ivy nonsense, and that's the schools fault. The school drills that into them like an ISIS madras drills the Koran into its recruits. Every person that I have ever met from that school talks about that book. I mean even when the book was new and relevant, they and Vermont were only included as some kind of wild card to mix things up and not just simply plug in expected choices like Washington or Minnesota. I find it very telling that today--and really for the last twenty years--the only schools that still talk about the book are Miami and Vermont, and that's because they really have nothing else.

Bolded, true. But from a public relations standpoint, you ride that horse as long as it's winning. Miami's enrollment seems to have held up for the most part while other regional state universities have suffered.

As CliftonAve stated above, even the Miami faithful have to be shaken by the latest news on their academic ranking slide though. This follows what are now decades of irrelevance on the basketball court and football field. And judging from attendance, one might think there was a Covid 19 outbreak in Oxford a decade ago that's still limiting the number of fans in the stands.

One other factor I've wondered about: younger people today seem to prefer urban settings. So the generation that longed for Miami's pastoral setting and took comfort in the cookie cutter Georgian architecture has moved on. Prospective students today seem to like Cincy's amazing, diverse architecture, Uptown setting, and the easy access to all our city offers from OTR to the Banks.

As 1985 has alluded to several times the past, Miami gets half their student body from the Chicagoland area today. I harp on an issue that a particular poster on this board brings up, but don't discount the impact having a football team that is routinely playing on ESPN, going to bowl games and being somewhat relevant (even if we are not on the scale of an OSU or Alabama) has on enrollment. There is no coincident that UC has gone from a school with roughly 35K students to nearly 47K in less than 15 years while Miami has stagnated and these other MAC schools have had significant declines.

I really think that with some good leadership and vision that UC can pass Miami by academically as an undergraduate school this decade. We've done that with OU, and Miami will be next. Miami's administration is complacent, and sometimes I think they are completely ignorant of the fact that their vaunted "public ivy" glory years (essentially the late 60 to the early 80s) were the result of OSU being forced into open admissions by the Rhodes administration. Before that, they were just considered as one of the "four corner" schools with OU, BG and Kent. Go back further, and the school literally had to shut down for a decade due to no enrollment and money. Public Ivy wasn't the historical norm; it was a historical aberration resulting from the state screwing with the flagship school. Academically, they find themselves in some weird nowhere land. They're not a research school and have no reputation in STEM, but they're also not the "liberal arts college" that they try to advertise themselves as. They're a fairly large (17K) moderately selective public university where everybody majors in business and as noted above their campus is stuck in the middle of nowhere.
 
09-17-2020 08:09 AM
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Post: #35
RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
UC has pretty much held its ground over the last decade. Consider that more schools are included in the rankings than there were in the past. Also consider that the rankings jump from 133 to 143, then I believe it jumps to 153. so there are a lot of schools all lumped together.

Even though Uc is ranked the same as it was a decade ago, the average ACT score has gone up significantly, as have retention rates, and applications. So the trajectory has been upward.

With that said, it seems clear to me that UC has been focused on enrollment maybe a bit more than it has been on increasing student quality.

It will be interesting to see how covid and dropping the test requirement affects the rankings.
 
09-17-2020 03:58 PM
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Post: #36
RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-17-2020 08:09 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-17-2020 07:58 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(09-17-2020 07:42 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  
(09-17-2020 07:19 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-16-2020 11:23 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  I was browsing on the Miami board and they have noticed the drop. They are even now behind Buffalo in the MAC. Those guys are usually a bunch of blowhards who believe they will one day return to what they achieved decades ago and briefly under BR. They aren't happy about their current status academically and athletically.

You're right. They have noticed it, but they're still hung up on the public ivy nonsense, and that's the schools fault. The school drills that into them like an ISIS madras drills the Koran into its recruits. Every person that I have ever met from that school talks about that book. I mean even when the book was new and relevant, they and Vermont were only included as some kind of wild card to mix things up and not just simply plug in expected choices like Washington or Minnesota. I find it very telling that today--and really for the last twenty years--the only schools that still talk about the book are Miami and Vermont, and that's because they really have nothing else.

Bolded, true. But from a public relations standpoint, you ride that horse as long as it's winning. Miami's enrollment seems to have held up for the most part while other regional state universities have suffered.

As CliftonAve stated above, even the Miami faithful have to be shaken by the latest news on their academic ranking slide though. This follows what are now decades of irrelevance on the basketball court and football field. And judging from attendance, one might think there was a Covid 19 outbreak in Oxford a decade ago that's still limiting the number of fans in the stands.

One other factor I've wondered about: younger people today seem to prefer urban settings. So the generation that longed for Miami's pastoral setting and took comfort in the cookie cutter Georgian architecture has moved on. Prospective students today seem to like Cincy's amazing, diverse architecture, Uptown setting, and the easy access to all our city offers from OTR to the Banks.

As 1985 has alluded to several times the past, Miami gets half their student body from the Chicagoland area today. I harp on an issue that a particular poster on this board brings up, but don't discount the impact having a football team that is routinely playing on ESPN, going to bowl games and being somewhat relevant (even if we are not on the scale of an OSU or Alabama) has on enrollment. There is no coincident that UC has gone from a school with roughly 35K students to nearly 47K in less than 15 years while Miami has stagnated and these other MAC schools have had significant declines.

I really think that with some good leadership and vision that UC can pass Miami by academically as an undergraduate school this decade. We've done that with OU, and Miami will be next. Miami's administration is complacent, and sometimes I think they are completely ignorant of the fact that their vaunted "public ivy" glory years (essentially the late 60 to the early 80s) were the result of OSU being forced into open admissions by the Rhodes administration. Before that, they were just considered as one of the "four corner" schools with OU, BG and Kent. Go back further, and the school literally had to shut down for a decade due to no enrollment and money. Public Ivy wasn't the historical norm; it was a historical aberration resulting from the state screwing with the flagship school. Academically, they find themselves in some weird nowhere land. They're not a research school and have no reputation in STEM, but they're also not the "liberal arts college" that they try to advertise themselves as. They're a fairly large (17K) moderately selective public university where everybody majors in business and as noted above their campus is stuck in the middle of nowhere.

Miami's problem is that they only have one cash cow that everyone else mooches off: the business school. Every school has departments that need to be subsidized (typically the liberal arts departments that provide gen ed courses). At Miami they all have to get subsidized from the same place, so the only cash cow gets starved of the cash it needs to grow the institution.

At UC, there's multiple cash cows: medicine, DAAP, CCM, engineering, and (somewhat) nursing and business. The subsidy gets spread out, so it's a manageable burden for each of those units to provide to the liberal arts college.

The local R2 schools that are in decent shape have multiple cash cows. Ball State has business, architecture, and education. Illinois State has actuary/insurance, business, nursing, and the best education school in the country. Ohio U has business, nursing, and used to have journalism. IUPUI has a massive medicine cash cow, plus small profit centers in engineering and business. Toledo has medicine, business, and engineering.

Miami is still in decent shape because it had a big head start on those schools 30 years ago. But they are losing their advantage, and UC is not the only institution that is benefiting at Miami's expense.
 
09-17-2020 11:15 PM
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Post: #37
RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-17-2020 11:15 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(09-17-2020 08:09 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-17-2020 07:58 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(09-17-2020 07:42 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  
(09-17-2020 07:19 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  You're right. They have noticed it, but they're still hung up on the public ivy nonsense, and that's the schools fault. The school drills that into them like an ISIS madras drills the Koran into its recruits. Every person that I have ever met from that school talks about that book. I mean even when the book was new and relevant, they and Vermont were only included as some kind of wild card to mix things up and not just simply plug in expected choices like Washington or Minnesota. I find it very telling that today--and really for the last twenty years--the only schools that still talk about the book are Miami and Vermont, and that's because they really have nothing else.

Bolded, true. But from a public relations standpoint, you ride that horse as long as it's winning. Miami's enrollment seems to have held up for the most part while other regional state universities have suffered.

As CliftonAve stated above, even the Miami faithful have to be shaken by the latest news on their academic ranking slide though. This follows what are now decades of irrelevance on the basketball court and football field. And judging from attendance, one might think there was a Covid 19 outbreak in Oxford a decade ago that's still limiting the number of fans in the stands.

One other factor I've wondered about: younger people today seem to prefer urban settings. So the generation that longed for Miami's pastoral setting and took comfort in the cookie cutter Georgian architecture has moved on. Prospective students today seem to like Cincy's amazing, diverse architecture, Uptown setting, and the easy access to all our city offers from OTR to the Banks.

As 1985 has alluded to several times the past, Miami gets half their student body from the Chicagoland area today. I harp on an issue that a particular poster on this board brings up, but don't discount the impact having a football team that is routinely playing on ESPN, going to bowl games and being somewhat relevant (even if we are not on the scale of an OSU or Alabama) has on enrollment. There is no coincident that UC has gone from a school with roughly 35K students to nearly 47K in less than 15 years while Miami has stagnated and these other MAC schools have had significant declines.

I really think that with some good leadership and vision that UC can pass Miami by academically as an undergraduate school this decade. We've done that with OU, and Miami will be next. Miami's administration is complacent, and sometimes I think they are completely ignorant of the fact that their vaunted "public ivy" glory years (essentially the late 60 to the early 80s) were the result of OSU being forced into open admissions by the Rhodes administration. Before that, they were just considered as one of the "four corner" schools with OU, BG and Kent. Go back further, and the school literally had to shut down for a decade due to no enrollment and money. Public Ivy wasn't the historical norm; it was a historical aberration resulting from the state screwing with the flagship school. Academically, they find themselves in some weird nowhere land. They're not a research school and have no reputation in STEM, but they're also not the "liberal arts college" that they try to advertise themselves as. They're a fairly large (17K) moderately selective public university where everybody majors in business and as noted above their campus is stuck in the middle of nowhere.

Miami's problem is that they only have one cash cow that everyone else mooches off: the business school. Every school has departments that need to be subsidized (typically the liberal arts departments that provide gen ed courses). At Miami they all have to get subsidized from the same place, so the only cash cow gets starved of the cash it needs to grow the institution.

At UC, there's multiple cash cows: medicine, DAAP, CCM, engineering, and (somewhat) nursing and business. The subsidy gets spread out, so it's a manageable burden for each of those units to provide to the liberal arts college.

The local R2 schools that are in decent shape have multiple cash cows. Ball State has business, architecture, and education. Illinois State has actuary/insurance, business, nursing, and the best education school in the country. Ohio U has business, nursing, and used to have journalism. IUPUI has a massive medicine cash cow, plus small profit centers in engineering and business. Toledo has medicine, business, and engineering.

Miami is still in decent shape because it had a big head start on those schools 30 years ago. But they are losing their advantage, and UC is not the only institution that is benefiting at Miami's expense.

Bolded, great observation and detailed support of your argument. I will only add that in Miami's "glory days" of the 60's and 70's there were far more social science and liberal arts majors than today. As you pointed out, when those students shifted to anything except business (engineering especially) Miami's offerings were very limited compared with UC.
 
09-18-2020 06:41 AM
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Bearcat 1985 Offline
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Post: #38
RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-18-2020 06:41 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  
(09-17-2020 11:15 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(09-17-2020 08:09 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-17-2020 07:58 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(09-17-2020 07:42 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  Bolded, true. But from a public relations standpoint, you ride that horse as long as it's winning. Miami's enrollment seems to have held up for the most part while other regional state universities have suffered.

As CliftonAve stated above, even the Miami faithful have to be shaken by the latest news on their academic ranking slide though. This follows what are now decades of irrelevance on the basketball court and football field. And judging from attendance, one might think there was a Covid 19 outbreak in Oxford a decade ago that's still limiting the number of fans in the stands.

One other factor I've wondered about: younger people today seem to prefer urban settings. So the generation that longed for Miami's pastoral setting and took comfort in the cookie cutter Georgian architecture has moved on. Prospective students today seem to like Cincy's amazing, diverse architecture, Uptown setting, and the easy access to all our city offers from OTR to the Banks.

As 1985 has alluded to several times the past, Miami gets half their student body from the Chicagoland area today. I harp on an issue that a particular poster on this board brings up, but don't discount the impact having a football team that is routinely playing on ESPN, going to bowl games and being somewhat relevant (even if we are not on the scale of an OSU or Alabama) has on enrollment. There is no coincident that UC has gone from a school with roughly 35K students to nearly 47K in less than 15 years while Miami has stagnated and these other MAC schools have had significant declines.

I really think that with some good leadership and vision that UC can pass Miami by academically as an undergraduate school this decade. We've done that with OU, and Miami will be next. Miami's administration is complacent, and sometimes I think they are completely ignorant of the fact that their vaunted "public ivy" glory years (essentially the late 60 to the early 80s) were the result of OSU being forced into open admissions by the Rhodes administration. Before that, they were just considered as one of the "four corner" schools with OU, BG and Kent. Go back further, and the school literally had to shut down for a decade due to no enrollment and money. Public Ivy wasn't the historical norm; it was a historical aberration resulting from the state screwing with the flagship school. Academically, they find themselves in some weird nowhere land. They're not a research school and have no reputation in STEM, but they're also not the "liberal arts college" that they try to advertise themselves as. They're a fairly large (17K) moderately selective public university where everybody majors in business and as noted above their campus is stuck in the middle of nowhere.

Miami's problem is that they only have one cash cow that everyone else mooches off: the business school. Every school has departments that need to be subsidized (typically the liberal arts departments that provide gen ed courses). At Miami they all have to get subsidized from the same place, so the only cash cow gets starved of the cash it needs to grow the institution.

At UC, there's multiple cash cows: medicine, DAAP, CCM, engineering, and (somewhat) nursing and business. The subsidy gets spread out, so it's a manageable burden for each of those units to provide to the liberal arts college.

The local R2 schools that are in decent shape have multiple cash cows. Ball State has business, architecture, and education. Illinois State has actuary/insurance, business, nursing, and the best education school in the country. Ohio U has business, nursing, and used to have journalism. IUPUI has a massive medicine cash cow, plus small profit centers in engineering and business. Toledo has medicine, business, and engineering.

Miami is still in decent shape because it had a big head start on those schools 30 years ago. But they are losing their advantage, and UC is not the only institution that is benefiting at Miami's expense.

Bolded, great observation and detailed support of your argument. I will only add that in Miami's "glory days" of the 60's and 70's there were far more social science and liberal arts majors than today. As you pointed out, when those students shifted to anything except business (engineering especially) Miami's offerings were very limited compared with UC.

OSU was crowing sometime in the last year that for Ohio kids who are accepted to both OSU and Miami and end up at one of the two schools, 9 out of 10 end up at OSU. If something about the post-COVID world dries up that Chicagoland pipeline, Miami could be in real trouble on many different fronts--enrollment, finances, selectivity and rankings. And it really is just Chicagoland. Miami has never come close to replicating that student demand (and they've spent years and a ton of money trying) in the Northeast, South or West Coast.
 
09-18-2020 07:21 AM
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Post: #39
RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-18-2020 07:21 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-18-2020 06:41 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  
(09-17-2020 11:15 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(09-17-2020 08:09 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-17-2020 07:58 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  As 1985 has alluded to several times the past, Miami gets half their student body from the Chicagoland area today. I harp on an issue that a particular poster on this board brings up, but don't discount the impact having a football team that is routinely playing on ESPN, going to bowl games and being somewhat relevant (even if we are not on the scale of an OSU or Alabama) has on enrollment. There is no coincident that UC has gone from a school with roughly 35K students to nearly 47K in less than 15 years while Miami has stagnated and these other MAC schools have had significant declines.

I really think that with some good leadership and vision that UC can pass Miami by academically as an undergraduate school this decade. We've done that with OU, and Miami will be next. Miami's administration is complacent, and sometimes I think they are completely ignorant of the fact that their vaunted "public ivy" glory years (essentially the late 60 to the early 80s) were the result of OSU being forced into open admissions by the Rhodes administration. Before that, they were just considered as one of the "four corner" schools with OU, BG and Kent. Go back further, and the school literally had to shut down for a decade due to no enrollment and money. Public Ivy wasn't the historical norm; it was a historical aberration resulting from the state screwing with the flagship school. Academically, they find themselves in some weird nowhere land. They're not a research school and have no reputation in STEM, but they're also not the "liberal arts college" that they try to advertise themselves as. They're a fairly large (17K) moderately selective public university where everybody majors in business and as noted above their campus is stuck in the middle of nowhere.

Miami's problem is that they only have one cash cow that everyone else mooches off: the business school. Every school has departments that need to be subsidized (typically the liberal arts departments that provide gen ed courses). At Miami they all have to get subsidized from the same place, so the only cash cow gets starved of the cash it needs to grow the institution.

At UC, there's multiple cash cows: medicine, DAAP, CCM, engineering, and (somewhat) nursing and business. The subsidy gets spread out, so it's a manageable burden for each of those units to provide to the liberal arts college.

The local R2 schools that are in decent shape have multiple cash cows. Ball State has business, architecture, and education. Illinois State has actuary/insurance, business, nursing, and the best education school in the country. Ohio U has business, nursing, and used to have journalism. IUPUI has a massive medicine cash cow, plus small profit centers in engineering and business. Toledo has medicine, business, and engineering.

Miami is still in decent shape because it had a big head start on those schools 30 years ago. But they are losing their advantage, and UC is not the only institution that is benefiting at Miami's expense.

Bolded, great observation and detailed support of your argument. I will only add that in Miami's "glory days" of the 60's and 70's there were far more social science and liberal arts majors than today. As you pointed out, when those students shifted to anything except business (engineering especially) Miami's offerings were very limited compared with UC.

OSU was crowing sometime in the last year that for Ohio kids who are accepted to both OSU and Miami and end up at one of the two schools, 9 out of 10 end up at OSU. If something about the post-COVID world dries up that Chicagoland pipeline, Miami could be in real trouble on many different fronts--enrollment, finances, selectivity and rankings. And it really is just Chicagoland. Miami has never come close to replicating that student demand (and they've spent years and a ton of money trying) in the Northeast, South or West Coast.

If things change in Illinois then Dayton will be in even worse shape. I think they take more kids from that state than Miami does.

Speaking of post Covid, I noticed UC has bulked up on a few more online programs which is definitely the way to go.
 
09-18-2020 07:53 AM
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RE: UC Drops in the 2021 US News World Report Ranking
(09-18-2020 07:53 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(09-18-2020 07:21 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  
(09-18-2020 06:41 AM)OKIcat Wrote:  
(09-17-2020 11:15 PM)Captain Bearcat Wrote:  
(09-17-2020 08:09 AM)Bearcat 1985 Wrote:  I really think that with some good leadership and vision that UC can pass Miami by academically as an undergraduate school this decade. We've done that with OU, and Miami will be next. Miami's administration is complacent, and sometimes I think they are completely ignorant of the fact that their vaunted "public ivy" glory years (essentially the late 60 to the early 80s) were the result of OSU being forced into open admissions by the Rhodes administration. Before that, they were just considered as one of the "four corner" schools with OU, BG and Kent. Go back further, and the school literally had to shut down for a decade due to no enrollment and money. Public Ivy wasn't the historical norm; it was a historical aberration resulting from the state screwing with the flagship school. Academically, they find themselves in some weird nowhere land. They're not a research school and have no reputation in STEM, but they're also not the "liberal arts college" that they try to advertise themselves as. They're a fairly large (17K) moderately selective public university where everybody majors in business and as noted above their campus is stuck in the middle of nowhere.

Miami's problem is that they only have one cash cow that everyone else mooches off: the business school. Every school has departments that need to be subsidized (typically the liberal arts departments that provide gen ed courses). At Miami they all have to get subsidized from the same place, so the only cash cow gets starved of the cash it needs to grow the institution.

At UC, there's multiple cash cows: medicine, DAAP, CCM, engineering, and (somewhat) nursing and business. The subsidy gets spread out, so it's a manageable burden for each of those units to provide to the liberal arts college.

The local R2 schools that are in decent shape have multiple cash cows. Ball State has business, architecture, and education. Illinois State has actuary/insurance, business, nursing, and the best education school in the country. Ohio U has business, nursing, and used to have journalism. IUPUI has a massive medicine cash cow, plus small profit centers in engineering and business. Toledo has medicine, business, and engineering.

Miami is still in decent shape because it had a big head start on those schools 30 years ago. But they are losing their advantage, and UC is not the only institution that is benefiting at Miami's expense.

Bolded, great observation and detailed support of your argument. I will only add that in Miami's "glory days" of the 60's and 70's there were far more social science and liberal arts majors than today. As you pointed out, when those students shifted to anything except business (engineering especially) Miami's offerings were very limited compared with UC.

OSU was crowing sometime in the last year that for Ohio kids who are accepted to both OSU and Miami and end up at one of the two schools, 9 out of 10 end up at OSU. If something about the post-COVID world dries up that Chicagoland pipeline, Miami could be in real trouble on many different fronts--enrollment, finances, selectivity and rankings. And it really is just Chicagoland. Miami has never come close to replicating that student demand (and they've spent years and a ton of money trying) in the Northeast, South or West Coast.

If things change in Illinois then Dayton will be in even worse shape. I think they take more kids from that state than Miami does.

Speaking of post Covid, I noticed UC has bulked up on a few more online programs which is definitely the way to go.

If I could give Pinto and the Board a checklist of things to focus on over the next five years it would be:

Make UC a statewide school: Focus heavily on balancing our freshman classes throughout the state.

Increase out of state enrollment: right now, it's less than 10% and half that is reciprocal tuition from metro area counties in KY and IN. We don't need to be Miami, but I think around 15% of true out of state students would be indicative of a true national university and broaden the geographic diversity of the student body. It also wouldn't hurt from a financial perspective.

While continuing to build on our strengths, recognize our weaknesses and do something about them. In particular build up our core Arts & Sciences departments, increase their enrollment and increase professional and graduate school opportunities for those that major in them. A) That pays for these departments and B) It's the mark of a well-respected, selective university that someone can major in History and East Asian studies and know they'll have professional opportunities upon graduation.

Go all in on getting the Comprehensive Cancer Center designation. This is achievable unlike Ono's big talk regarding AAU.

Conduct another multi-year campaign with a goal of increasing the permanent endowment to the $2B level.


Do all of the above, and UC would truly be next man up for the AAU.
 
09-18-2020 08:25 AM
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