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ken d Offline
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Post: #201
RE: College Basketball Tiers
(11-20-2020 11:48 AM)GoldenWarrior11 Wrote:  
(11-19-2020 08:18 PM)schmolik Wrote:  CBS Sports ranked their best teams

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basket...-all-time/

1. Kentucky
2. North Carolina
3. Duke
4. UCLA
5. Kansas

Solid breakdown of programs, with quality metrics in rankings creating tiers. My one critique would be the usage of conference championships be weighted as heavily. For example, Western Kentucky, which has one recognized Final Four/Elite Eight appearance in 1940, has a whopping 33 conference championships between the Ohio Valley and Sun Belt going back to the 30's, which easily bumps them into the top-25.

Conversely, many basketball programs were independent for long periods including, but not limited to, Boston College, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, Georgetown, Villanova, Seton Hall, St. John's, Providence, Marquette, Notre Dame, DePaul, Dayton, Xavier, Memphis, Cincinnati and Louisville. Even others like Miami, Virginia Tech and West Virginia were independent for a number of years.

In my opinion, many programs were unfairly penalized for not being in a conference, thus being able to compete for a conference championship which artificially inflated a number of other programs' rankings.

Good point. Add to that that it seems to equate winning the MEAC with winning the B1G or the ACC.
11-20-2020 12:52 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #202
RE: College Basketball Tiers
Best programs you thought might be on the list and are not? Butler and Tulsa for me.

Good point from GW11 regarding league titles. Those programs that were indies for a long time get "penalized" by that. As to Western Kentucky, I once attended a game at Diddle Arena in Bowling Green, Kentucky. Earthy and gritty vibe. I liked it.

I count six ACC and five Big Ten in Norlander's top 25. Clearly the nation's two "best" leagues for historically strongest programs — at least based on the metrics of this ranking.
11-20-2020 12:57 PM
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CardinalJim Offline
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Post: #203
RE: College Basketball Tiers
I figured Western Kentucky on that list would make some of the youngsters here scratch their heads. Back in the day Ed Diddle was a force on the Hill in Bowling Green. Western beat Louisville 23 of the first 30 times they faced each other. Louisville only holds a 31-29 series edge. The HillToppers owned Louisville until Denny came. Coach Crum was 14-2 against WKU.

Kentucky is only 4-2 against Western. The HillToppers don’t get the respect they deserve. Glad to see them in this poll.
11-20-2020 06:10 PM
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DavidSt Offline
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Post: #204
RE: College Basketball Tiers
If Butler did pull off the upset against Duke in the Championship game?
11-20-2020 06:17 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #205
RE: College Basketball Tiers
(11-20-2020 06:10 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  I figured Western Kentucky on that list would make some of the youngsters here scratch their heads. Back in the day Ed Diddle was a force on the Hill in Bowling Green. Western beat Louisville 23 of the first 30 times they faced each other. Louisville only holds a 31-29 series edge. The HillToppers owned Louisville until Denny came. Coach Crum was 14-2 against WKU.

Kentucky is only 4-2 against Western. The HillToppers don’t get the respect they deserve. Glad to see them in this poll.

I did not know these numbers, C-Jim. So thanks for posting. We old-timers recall when WKU was nationally relevant.
11-20-2020 07:48 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #206
RE: College Basketball Tiers
(11-20-2020 06:17 PM)DavidSt Wrote:  If Butler did pull off the upset against Duke in the Championship game?

I would think that would have "move the needle" somewhat in the CBS Sports ranking. But not significantly. Regardless, Butler came close in the game with Duke. It was not meant to be.
11-20-2020 07:50 PM
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CardinalJim Offline
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Post: #207
RE: College Basketball Tiers
(11-20-2020 07:48 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(11-20-2020 06:10 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  I figured Western Kentucky on that list would make some of the youngsters here scratch their heads. Back in the day Ed Diddle was a force on the Hill in Bowling Green. Western beat Louisville 23 of the first 30 times they faced each other. Louisville only holds a 31-29 series edge. The HillToppers owned Louisville until Denny came. Coach Crum was 14-2 against WKU.

Kentucky is only 4-2 against Western. The HillToppers don’t get the respect they deserve. Glad to see them in this poll.

I did not know these numbers, C-Jim. So thanks for posting. We old-timers recall when WKU was nationally relevant.

No worries...
My Dad was a huge Western fan. I listened to him talk about Diddle and HillTopper basketball the whole time I was growing up so I knew most of it already...lol
11-21-2020 08:52 AM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #208
RE: College Basketball Tiers
(11-21-2020 08:52 AM)CardinalJim Wrote:  
(11-20-2020 07:48 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(11-20-2020 06:10 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  I figured Western Kentucky on that list would make some of the youngsters here scratch their heads. Back in the day Ed Diddle was a force on the Hill in Bowling Green. Western beat Louisville 23 of the first 30 times they faced each other. Louisville only holds a 31-29 series edge. The HillToppers owned Louisville until Denny came. Coach Crum was 14-2 against WKU.

Kentucky is only 4-2 against Western. The HillToppers don’t get the respect they deserve. Glad to see them in this poll.

I did not know these numbers, C-Jim. So thanks for posting. We old-timers recall when WKU was nationally relevant.

No worries...
My Dad was a huge Western fan. I listened to him talk about Diddle and HillTopper basketball the whole time I was growing up so I knew most of it already...lol


C-Jim,

You might have some thoughts on this:

It seems that of all the folks I've met who are Western Kentucky fans primarily and either Louisville fans secondarily or UK fans secondarily ... 95 percent of them are Kentucky Wildcat fans secondarily.

It's an interesting dynamic. I have some thoughts on it.
11-21-2020 08:59 AM
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CardinalJim Offline
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Post: #209
RE: College Basketball Tiers
(11-21-2020 08:59 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(11-21-2020 08:52 AM)CardinalJim Wrote:  
(11-20-2020 07:48 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(11-20-2020 06:10 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  I figured Western Kentucky on that list would make some of the youngsters here scratch their heads. Back in the day Ed Diddle was a force on the Hill in Bowling Green. Western beat Louisville 23 of the first 30 times they faced each other. Louisville only holds a 31-29 series edge. The HillToppers owned Louisville until Denny came. Coach Crum was 14-2 against WKU.

Kentucky is only 4-2 against Western. The HillToppers don’t get the respect they deserve. Glad to see them in this poll.

I did not know these numbers, C-Jim. So thanks for posting. We old-timers recall when WKU was nationally relevant.

No worries...
My Dad was a huge Western fan. I listened to him talk about Diddle and HillTopper basketball the whole time I was growing up so I knew most of it already...lol


C-Jim,

You might have some thoughts on this:

It seems that of all the folks I've met who are Western Kentucky fans primarily and either Louisville fans secondarily or UK fans secondarily ... 95 percent of them are Kentucky Wildcat fans secondarily.

It's an interesting dynamic. I have some thoughts on it.

You are exactly right. I can remember growing up in the 60’s and 70’s, there really wasn’t a UK vs UofL Rivalry or a WKU vs UK or UofL Rivalry.

When WKU was rolling in the early 70’s we used to talk about realistically getting all three teams into the Final Four.

I have friend that ran track at EKU in the late 70’s. He said if he wanted to see his friends and there weren’t any home football or basketball games he would go up to Lexington for the UK game. He later coached basketball for the Colonels and helped recruit Ervin Stepp to Eastern. He said Stepp asked him what everyone did for fun in Richmond. I told him, “they go up to Lexington and watch UK play.”

Times sure have changed....
11-21-2020 09:33 AM
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Wahoowa84 Offline
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Post: #210
RE: College Basketball Tiers
(11-20-2020 04:30 AM)jedclampett Wrote:  
(11-19-2020 10:30 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  
(11-19-2020 08:18 PM)schmolik Wrote:  CBS Sports ranked their best teams

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basket...-all-time/

1. Kentucky
2. North Carolina
3. Duke
4. UCLA
5. Kansas

The author developed a real complex formula to calculate an order for best programs. His top 5 programs stand-out for having many more points than the next tier. These top 5 seem to be the universal “blue bloods”.

The points formula calculates performance evenly over the past 80 years. Would probably be better if success over the past 40 years (since the NCAA tournament was expanded) was weighted more heavily.

I disagree, because the CBS article is focusing on the GREATEST TEAMS OF ALL-TIME.

The issue is that success over the past 40 years is not as compelling as "all-time" success AND WHAT EVERYONE WANTS THE MOST IS TO BE ONE OF THE GREATEST TEAMS OF "ALL-TIME" (i.e., the truest of the true "blue bloods").

Anyone who wants to compile a list of the greatest teams over the past 40 years is, of course, free to do so, as could anyone who wants to compile a list of the greatest over the past 10 or 20 or 30 years, or over the past 50 or 75 years, or since the first NCAA tournament was held. But all of these are arbitrary dates, and all of them will only capture a segment of the audience (e.g., the past 40 years list would appeal mainly to people who are 16 to 50 years old).

The farther back the list goes in time, the more interesting it tends to be.

Why? Because most people are fascinated with the history of the game, and all the interesting and wonderful things that happened in those fabled times.

Also, because the older that you get, the more fascinated you're going to be with our nation's history. I guarantee it!
I believe that the criteria of success in college basketball really changed when the NCAA decided to expand the tournament. Specifically, the expanded tournament made college basketball into a big business. The NCAA made incredible monies on media rights and needed to distribute the wealth. It encouraged universities to align into conferences so that it could “systematically” select tournament participants and distribute revenues.

In my hometown, the Big 5 competition was the big deal...but the standard of success quickly transformed to conference alignment. For Villanova, winning the Big East and being selected for the NCAA tournament are now major annual goals.

For the elite, blue bloods, the expanded role of the NCAA only had modest impact. UK, UNC, KU, UCLA and Duke have always targeted national recruits, competition and branding. Their focus had already shifted from the NIT to the NCAA post season a few decades earlier.

The impact of the expanded NCAA tournament was on the tier below the blue bloods. The classic example is the 1974 Maryland Terrapins...who I believe were one of the top 2 teams in the entire nation. Yet these Terps get zero points for winning their conference, zero points making the NCAA tournament and zero points for making the Final Four.

The author is using today’s standard of basketball excellence and retroactively applying it to an age where it didn’t apply. Admittedly, I’m not as familiar with the storied history of schools like Western Kentucky. I’m surprised that schools like Maryland, Virginia and Florida didn’t score much higher.
(This post was last modified: 11-21-2020 10:01 AM by Wahoowa84.)
11-21-2020 09:58 AM
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Post: #211
RE: College Basketball Tiers
(11-21-2020 09:58 AM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  
(11-20-2020 04:30 AM)jedclampett Wrote:  
(11-19-2020 10:30 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  
(11-19-2020 08:18 PM)schmolik Wrote:  CBS Sports ranked their best teams

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basket...-all-time/

1. Kentucky
2. North Carolina
3. Duke
4. UCLA
5. Kansas

The author developed a real complex formula to calculate an order for best programs. His top 5 programs stand-out for having many more points than the next tier. These top 5 seem to be the universal “blue bloods”.

The points formula calculates performance evenly over the past 80 years. Would probably be better if success over the past 40 years (since the NCAA tournament was expanded) was weighted more heavily.

I disagree, because the CBS article is focusing on the GREATEST TEAMS OF ALL-TIME.

The issue is that success over the past 40 years is not as compelling as "all-time" success AND WHAT EVERYONE WANTS THE MOST IS TO BE ONE OF THE GREATEST TEAMS OF "ALL-TIME" (i.e., the truest of the true "blue bloods").

Anyone who wants to compile a list of the greatest teams over the past 40 years is, of course, free to do so, as could anyone who wants to compile a list of the greatest over the past 10 or 20 or 30 years, or over the past 50 or 75 years, or since the first NCAA tournament was held. But all of these are arbitrary dates, and all of them will only capture a segment of the audience (e.g., the past 40 years list would appeal mainly to people who are 16 to 50 years old).

The farther back the list goes in time, the more interesting it tends to be.

Why? Because most people are fascinated with the history of the game, and all the interesting and wonderful things that happened in those fabled times.

Also, because the older that you get, the more fascinated you're going to be with our nation's history. I guarantee it!
I believe that the criteria of success in college basketball really changed when the NCAA decided to expand the tournament. Specifically, the expanded tournament made college basketball into a big business. The NCAA made incredible monies on media rights and needed to distribute the wealth. It encouraged universities to align into conferences so that it could “systematically” select tournament participants and distribute revenues.

In my hometown, the Big 5 competition was the big deal...but the standard of success quickly transformed to conference alignment. For example, Villanova winning the Big East and being selected for the NCAA tournament are now major annual goals.

For the elite, blue bloods, the expanded role of the NCAA only had modest impact. UK, UNC, KU, UCLA and Duke have always targeted national recruits, competition and branding. Their focus had already shifted from the NIT to the NCAA post season a few decades earlier.

The impact of the expanded NCAA tournament was on the tier below the blue bloods. The classic example is the 1974 Maryland Terrapins...who I believe were one of the top 2 teams in the entire nation. Yet these Terps get zero points for winning their conference, zero points making the NCAA tournament and zero points for making the Final Four.

The author is using today’s standard of basketball excellence and retroactively applying it to an age where it didn’t apply. Admittedly, I’m not as familiar with the storied history of schools like Western Kentucky. I’m surprised that schools like Maryland, Virginia and Florida didn’t score much higher.

That's why although they say "greatest of all time" I will never respect the champions before the expansion of the tournament as much as the teams today. Sure it was a great accomplishment for John Wooden to win all those tournaments. No way he wins seven straight national championships today. Nine of his ten championships UCLA only had to win four games to win the title and nine of his ten championships only one team per conference were allowed to make it in. Imagine if only one ACC, one Big Ten, one Big East, etc, made the NCAA Tournament vs. the multiple teams from those conferences today.
11-21-2020 10:07 AM
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jedclampett Online
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Post: #212
RE: College Basketball Tiers
(11-21-2020 10:07 AM)schmolik Wrote:  
(11-21-2020 09:58 AM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  
(11-20-2020 04:30 AM)jedclampett Wrote:  
(11-19-2020 10:30 PM)Wahoowa84 Wrote:  
(11-19-2020 08:18 PM)schmolik Wrote:  CBS Sports ranked their best teams

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basket...-all-time/

1. Kentucky
2. North Carolina
3. Duke
4. UCLA
5. Kansas

The author developed a real complex formula to calculate an order for best programs. His top 5 programs stand-out for having many more points than the next tier. These top 5 seem to be the universal “blue bloods”.

The points formula calculates performance evenly over the past 80 years. Would probably be better if success over the past 40 years (since the NCAA tournament was expanded) was weighted more heavily.

I disagree, because the CBS article is focusing on the GREATEST TEAMS OF ALL-TIME.

The issue is that success over the past 40 years is not as compelling as "all-time" success AND WHAT EVERYONE WANTS THE MOST IS TO BE ONE OF THE GREATEST TEAMS OF "ALL-TIME" (i.e., the truest of the true "blue bloods").

Anyone who wants to compile a list of the greatest teams over the past 40 years is, of course, free to do so, as could anyone who wants to compile a list of the greatest over the past 10 or 20 or 30 years, or over the past 50 or 75 years, or since the first NCAA tournament was held. But all of these are arbitrary dates, and all of them will only capture a segment of the audience (e.g., the past 40 years list would appeal mainly to people who are 16 to 50 years old).

The farther back the list goes in time, the more interesting it tends to be.

Why? Because most people are fascinated with the history of the game, and all the interesting and wonderful things that happened in those fabled times.

Also, because the older that you get, the more fascinated you're going to be with our nation's history. I guarantee it!
I believe that the criteria of success in college basketball really changed when the NCAA decided to expand the tournament. Specifically, the expanded tournament made college basketball into a big business. The NCAA made incredible monies on media rights and needed to distribute the wealth. It encouraged universities to align into conferences so that it could “systematically” select tournament participants and distribute revenues.

In my hometown, the Big 5 competition was the big deal...but the standard of success quickly transformed to conference alignment. For example, Villanova winning the Big East and being selected for the NCAA tournament are now major annual goals.

For the elite, blue bloods, the expanded role of the NCAA only had modest impact. UK, UNC, KU, UCLA and Duke have always targeted national recruits, competition and branding. Their focus had already shifted from the NIT to the NCAA post season a few decades earlier.

The impact of the expanded NCAA tournament was on the tier below the blue bloods. The classic example is the 1974 Maryland Terrapins...who I believe were one of the top 2 teams in the entire nation. Yet these Terps get zero points for winning their conference, zero points making the NCAA tournament and zero points for making the Final Four.

The author is using today’s standard of basketball excellence and retroactively applying it to an age where it didn’t apply. Admittedly, I’m not as familiar with the storied history of schools like Western Kentucky. I’m surprised that schools like Maryland, Virginia and Florida didn’t score much higher.

That's why although they say "greatest of all time" I will never respect the champions before the expansion of the tournament as much as the teams today. Sure it was a great accomplishment for John Wooden to win all those tournaments. No way he wins seven straight national championships today. Nine of his ten championships UCLA only had to win four games to win the title and nine of his ten championships only one team per conference were allowed to make it in. Imagine if only one ACC, one Big Ten, one Big East, etc, made the NCAA Tournament vs. the multiple teams from those conferences today.

You really have no idea, do you?

The golden era of college basketball was before the expansion of the NCAA tournament.

Things didn't get better after the expansion, because all the expansion did was allow a lot more Big 10 and SEC and ACC, PAC, and Big 12 teams to play in the tournament. It screwed the hundreds of other teams and made college basketball a lot less interesting and a lot less fun.

Were the games better, back before everything became so highly commercialized and before all the rule changes and the 30 second clocks and all the ticky-tack fouls, and players leaving teams in a year to play in the NBA?

...and the millions of TV/radio timeouts that totally disrupt the flow of the game?

...when it was still very much an amateur sport played by students who happened to be athletes, rather than by pampered (by handlers and agents) semi-professional athletes who happen to become students out of convenience ?

You're damn straight they were!

They were better - - a LOT better beforehand, when the NIT tournament was valued on a nearly equal footing, and when the top conferences didn't utterly dominate the tournament year after year, which they do now.

Then, every game was meaningful, because there weren't as many tournaments, so kids played their hearts out every night - - and they played for the love of the game, rather than for how much money they could earn as bb professionals

You don't have a clue, because you must not have been around back then. I wish you could have been. It was great!

John Wooden is almost certainly the best man who ever coached the game. He was brilliant. Nobody could hold a candle to him, even though there were a lot of great coaches back then.

The game was better. The atmosphere was better.

The fans in the stands were individuals. They didn't all wear the same school colors to every game, conforming to the ridiculous social pressure to do so that exists today. They wore whatever the hell they wanted to, and it was a lot more interesting, as a result.

I still enjoy watching college basketball, but it's just a shadow of what it once was, when almost all the student-athletes stayed at the same school for four years, and the fans got to know them, and they developed a team sense of identity that you could see evolving from year to year, like a family.

You really missed out on something special!
11-21-2020 12:20 PM
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BKTopper Offline
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Post: #213
RE: College Basketball Tiers
(11-20-2020 06:10 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  I figured Western Kentucky on that list would make some of the youngsters here scratch their heads. Back in the day Ed Diddle was a force on the Hill in Bowling Green. Western beat Louisville 23 of the first 30 times they faced each other. Louisville only holds a 31-29 series edge. The HillToppers owned Louisville until Denny came. Coach Crum was 14-2 against WKU.

Kentucky is only 4-2 against Western. The HillToppers don’t get the respect they deserve. Glad to see them in this poll.

And that record will stand until UK stops being so afraid to play us.

I always liked how cooperative UofL has been with my Toppers, rising tides lifting all boats and such. 04-cheers
11-21-2020 12:35 PM
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RE: College Basketball Tiers
A league breakdown for Norlander/CBS Sports Top 68 all-time men's hoops programs (counted based on program membership as of 2020-21)

As to be expected, the seven major conferences offer the most programs.

Tie

1. ACC and Big Ten: 10 programs

Tie

3. Big East and SEC: Eight programs

Tie

5. Big 12 and Pac-12: Six programs

7. American: five programs



Others

8. West Coast: Three programs

Tie

9. A10, C-USA, Ivy and Mountain West: Two programs


Four other schools included in the top 68, one each from mid-major league
11-22-2020 11:27 AM
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Post: #215
RE: College Basketball Tiers
(11-22-2020 11:27 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  A league breakdown for Norlander/CBS Sports Top 68 all-time men's hoops programs (counted based on program membership as of 2020-21)

As to be expected, the seven major conferences offer the most programs.

Tie

1. ACC and Big Ten: 10 programs

Tie

3. Big East and SEC: Eight programs

Tie

5. Big 12 and Pac-12: Six programs

7. American: five programs



Others

8. West Coast (WCC): Three programs

Tie

9. A10, C-USA, Ivy and Mountain West (MWC): Two programs



Four other schools included in the top 68, one each from mid-major league

True:

20 of the "greatest 68" are from non-P5/non-BE conferences

ACC: #10 Cincy, #24 Temple, #34 Memphis, #42 Houston, #60 Wichita St.

WCC: #32 Gonzaga (WCC), #36 BYU (WCC), #50 San Francisco (WCC)

A-10: #45 St. Joseph's & #49 Dayton

C-USA: #21 WKU & #62 UTEP

MWC: #30 UNLV, #63 Utah State

Ivy League: #37 Princeton, #47 Penn

Ohio Valley Conference: #44 Murray State

Missouri Valley Conference: #57 Bradley (MVC)

Big Sky Conference: #61 Weber State

WAC: #64 New Mexico State
11-22-2020 11:52 PM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #216
RE: College Basketball Tiers
(11-22-2020 11:52 PM)jedclampett Wrote:  
(11-22-2020 11:27 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  A league breakdown for Norlander/CBS Sports Top 68 all-time men's hoops programs (counted based on program membership as of 2020-21)

As to be expected, the seven major conferences offer the most programs.

Tie

1. ACC and Big Ten: 10 programs

Tie

3. Big East and SEC: Eight programs

Tie

5. Big 12 and Pac-12: Six programs

7. American: five programs



Others

8. West Coast (WCC): Three programs

Tie

9. A10, C-USA, Ivy and Mountain West (MWC): Two programs



Four other schools included in the top 68, one each from mid-major league

True:

20 of the "greatest 68" are from non-P5/non-BE conferences

ACC: #10 Cincy, #24 Temple, #34 Memphis, #42 Houston, #60 Wichita St.

WCC: #32 Gonzaga (WCC), #36 BYU (WCC), #50 San Francisco (WCC)

A-10: #45 St. Joseph's & #49 Dayton

C-USA: #21 WKU & #62 UTEP

MWC: #30 UNLV, #63 Utah State

Ivy League: #37 Princeton, #47 Penn

Ohio Valley Conference: #44 Murray State

Missouri Valley Conference: #57 Bradley (MVC)

Big Sky Conference: #61 Weber State

WAC: #64 New Mexico State


Worth noting: the three highest ranked programs not from the P6/AAC group are No. 31 Western Kentucky, No. 30 UNLV and No. 32 Gonzaga
11-23-2020 09:14 AM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #217
RE: College Basketball Tiers
(11-22-2020 11:52 PM)jedclampett Wrote:  
(11-22-2020 11:27 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  A league breakdown for Norlander/CBS Sports Top 68 all-time men's hoops programs (counted based on program membership as of 2020-21)

As to be expected, the seven major conferences offer the most programs.

Tie

1. ACC and Big Ten: 10 programs

Tie

3. Big East and SEC: Eight programs

Tie

5. Big 12 and Pac-12: Six programs

7. American: five programs



Others

8. West Coast (WCC): Three programs

Tie

9. A10, C-USA, Ivy and Mountain West (MWC): Two programs



Four other schools included in the top 68, one each from mid-major league

True:

20 of the "greatest 68" are from non-P5/non-BE conferences

ACC: #10 Cincy, #24 Temple, #34 Memphis, #42 Houston, #60 Wichita St.

WCC: #32 Gonzaga (WCC), #36 BYU (WCC), #50 San Francisco (WCC)

A-10: #45 St. Joseph's & #49 Dayton

C-USA: #21 WKU & #62 UTEP

MWC: #30 UNLV, #63 Utah State

Ivy League: #37 Princeton, #47 Penn

Ohio Valley Conference: #44 Murray State

Missouri Valley Conference: #57 Bradley (MVC)

Big Sky Conference: #61 Weber State

WAC: #64 New Mexico State


Jed,

Another strong program not on the list: New Mexico of the Mountain West. Kind of a surprise.
11-23-2020 10:06 AM
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RE: College Basketball Tiers
(11-23-2020 10:06 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(11-22-2020 11:52 PM)jedclampett Wrote:  
(11-22-2020 11:27 AM)bill dazzle Wrote:  A league breakdown for Norlander/CBS Sports Top 68 all-time men's hoops programs (counted based on program membership as of 2020-21)

As to be expected, the seven major conferences offer the most programs.

Tie

1. ACC and Big Ten: 10 programs

Tie

3. Big East and SEC: Eight programs

Tie

5. Big 12 and Pac-12: Six programs

7. American: five programs



Others

8. West Coast (WCC): Three programs

Tie

9. A10, C-USA, Ivy and Mountain West (MWC): Two programs



Four other schools included in the top 68, one each from mid-major league

True:

20 of the "greatest 68" are from non-P5/non-BE conferences

ACC: #10 Cincy, #24 Temple, #34 Memphis, #42 Houston, #60 Wichita St.

WCC: #32 Gonzaga (WCC), #36 BYU (WCC), #50 San Francisco (WCC)

A-10: #45 St. Joseph's & #49 Dayton

C-USA: #21 WKU & #62 UTEP

MWC: #30 UNLV, #63 Utah State

Ivy League: #37 Princeton, #47 Penn

Ohio Valley Conference: #44 Murray State

Missouri Valley Conference: #57 Bradley (MVC)

Big Sky Conference: #61 Weber State

WAC: #64 New Mexico State


Jed,

Another strong program not on the list: New Mexico of the Mountain West. Kind of a surprise.

New Mexico had a real nice program back in 70s. The Pit was one of the toughest places to win at. Jim Boehiem had one his first huge wins there in late 1977. At Louisville in 1976 was his first big win as HC.

Sat about 18K for basketball. Fun fact: one of the last small arenas to host the Final Four (1983)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pit_(arena)
11-23-2020 10:46 AM
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Post: #219
RE: College Basketball Tiers
(11-20-2020 05:26 AM)CardinalJim Wrote:  
(11-20-2020 05:02 AM)CliftonAve Wrote:  
(11-19-2020 08:18 PM)schmolik Wrote:  CBS Sports ranked their best teams

https://www.cbssports.com/college-basket...-all-time/

1. Kentucky
2. North Carolina
3. Duke
4. UCLA
5. Kansas

My Cincinnati Bearcats come in at #10.

Here are the metrics used by CBS:


NCAA Tournament championships (20 points)
Final Four appearances without a national title (10 points)
Regular-season titles (5 points)
Elite Eights without making the Final Four (3 points)
NIT titles (3 points)
NCAA Tournament bids (2 points)
Wins (0.5 points)
Losses (-0.5 points)
Wins over ranked opponents (0.5 points)
Weeks ranked (0.1 point)
Top-10 NBA picks (5 points)
11-30 NBA picks (3 points)
31-60 NBA picks (1 point)

The top 25

1. Kentucky
2. North Carolina
3. Duke
4. UCLA
5. Kansas
6. Louisville
7. Indiana
8. UConn
9. Villanova
10. Cincinnati
11. Syracuse
12. Ohio State
13. Arizona
14. Michigan State
15. Illinois
16. Utah
17. St. John's
18. Michigan
19. North Carolina St
20. Georgetown
21. Western Kentucky
22. Arkansas
23. Notre Dame
24. Temple
25. Oklahoma St

I would still place North Carolina ahead of Kentucky.

No one has pissed away more talent than John Calipari the last decade. One title with nearly 40 McDonald’s All Americans. That’s nearly 4 per team per season and he has one title to show for it.

The NCAA and the sports media kisses Calipari’s backside when someone should be calling Calipari out for underachieving.

From the article:

"...Kentucky is unequivocally the most successful and consistent program in college basketball in the past 10 years, the past 20, 30, 40, 60 and even 80 years. UK's 131 NCAA Tournament wins: most ever. Its 2,320 wins in history: most ever. How about this: it has made 21 Elite Eights NOT including the years it also went to the Final Four, which adds another nine to that pile. By far the most ever. Kentucky's 102 top-60 NBA picks since 1946: most ever. It's been ranked for 919 weeks, tops in college basketball history. The 59 NCAA Tournament bids outpaces No. 2 North Carolina by NINE. Its domination of the SEC is silly; those 47 regular-season titles, in addition to 17 Final Fours, catapulted Kentucky past the competition. ..."

As for Calipari, he brings in the ones and dones. Freshmen make mistakes in big games. That 2010 team lost in the elite 8 to a veteran squad in WV and the 2015 lost to a veteran WI squad. Both of those were the most talented teams those years. You can only do so much when you are trying to put together a team that changes every year and has a bunch of kids fresh out of HS. Its one of the complaints I have about how many of those players he recruits. Its built for #1 rankings, but not for winning the NCAA tourney.

And Calipari is one of 5 coaches who has been at UK for more than 3 years. All 5 have national titles. Only 4 other schools even have 5 NCAA titles.
11-23-2020 11:31 AM
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Post: #220
RE: College Basketball Tiers
(11-20-2020 07:48 PM)bill dazzle Wrote:  
(11-20-2020 06:10 PM)CardinalJim Wrote:  I figured Western Kentucky on that list would make some of the youngsters here scratch their heads. Back in the day Ed Diddle was a force on the Hill in Bowling Green. Western beat Louisville 23 of the first 30 times they faced each other. Louisville only holds a 31-29 series edge. The HillToppers owned Louisville until Denny came. Coach Crum was 14-2 against WKU.

Kentucky is only 4-2 against Western. The HillToppers don’t get the respect they deserve. Glad to see them in this poll.

I did not know these numbers, C-Jim. So thanks for posting. We old-timers recall when WKU was nationally relevant.

I remember Jim McDaniel carrying WKU to the final 4 in the early 70s.
11-23-2020 11:34 AM
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