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Chicago St BOT discuss OVC, Horizon for possible 2021 move
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Hammersmith Offline
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Post: #21
RE: Chicago St BOT discuss OVC, Horizon for possible 2021 move
(09-08-2020 07:24 PM)schmolik Wrote:  I'd shoot for the Summit if I were them. The OVC and Horizon look like they're too good for Chicago State.

Absolutely no way we want them. If we need another member, we've got Augie on standby.
09-09-2020 04:25 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #22
RE: Chicago St BOT discuss OVC, Horizon for possible 2021 move
(09-08-2020 09:36 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  I guess they’ve relented to the “speak it into existence” method.

I can’t imagine anyone taking them. I was surprised at NJIT ending up in the AEC so I’m open to being surprised.

School leaders could get onboard with NJIT academically, at the very least. Chicago State is a dumpster fire top to bottom, with the exception of a great basketball arena.

I’d say I’m infuriated by how the state lets this school exist, but, why the WAC won’t kick them out despite not meeting standards for years now? CSU and the WAC are just the same: do whatever is necessary to survive.
09-09-2020 04:35 AM
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schmolik Online
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Post: #23
RE: Chicago St BOT discuss OVC, Horizon for possible 2021 move
(09-09-2020 04:25 AM)Hammersmith Wrote:  
(09-08-2020 07:24 PM)schmolik Wrote:  I'd shoot for the Summit if I were them. The OVC and Horizon look like they're too good for Chicago State.

Absolutely no way we want them. If we need another member, we've got Augie on standby.

If the Summit is too good for Chicago State, the guy who thinks for a second that he has a chance of them getting into the OVC or Horizon is the biggest idiot in college athletics. He's talking with those conferences? Those will be pretty short conversations.

(09-09-2020 04:35 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(09-08-2020 09:36 PM)BePcr07 Wrote:  I guess they’ve relented to the “speak it into existence” method.

I can’t imagine anyone taking them. I was surprised at NJIT ending up in the AEC so I’m open to being surprised.

School leaders could get onboard with NJIT academically, at the very least. Chicago State is a dumpster fire top to bottom, with the exception of a great basketball arena.

I’d say I’m infuriated by how the state lets this school exist, but, why the WAC won’t kick them out despite not meeting standards for years now? CSU and the WAC are just the same: do whatever is necessary to survive.

They are still Chicago and beggars can't be choosers.
09-09-2020 05:31 AM
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Michael in Raleigh Offline
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Post: #24
RE: Chicago St BOT discuss OVC, Horizon for possible 2021 move
(09-08-2020 09:37 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(09-08-2020 08:32 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  
(09-08-2020 08:30 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(09-08-2020 08:13 PM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  
(09-08-2020 07:43 PM)SactoHornetAlum Wrote:  Either way, sounds like it their WAC days are officially done.

If so then good for the WAC. They'll still have eight full members and will finally have a semi-reasonable geographic footprint. That may actually help the conference recruit new schools.

I think you’ll see West Texas A&M announce a move to the WAC within 24 months.

What about Upper Iowa?

DavidSt’s the go-to expert on them. I’m still not convinced that’s a real school. How can there be an Upper Iowa when Iowa is flat?

Haha, I'm not sure exactly what is "Upper" about Iowa, either.

I wasn't sure if you were serious about West Texas A&M or if you were making a DavidSt joke since he mentions them all the time in his long lists, so I thought, "Ehy not the famous Upper Iowa, too?" 04-cheers
09-09-2020 06:48 AM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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Post: #25
RE: Chicago St BOT discuss OVC, Horizon for possible 2021 move
(09-09-2020 05:31 AM)schmolik Wrote:  They are still Chicago and beggars can't be choosers.

Do you think the conference itself is at odds with member schools about that? I suspect there is some internal strife within because the conference simply won’t make a decision and seems to have no plan, or the same basic plan of “just survive.”

Major transportation hub or no, I’m also sure members would love to lob off travel costs for a school so far east of the conference “core.”
09-09-2020 07:05 AM
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johnbragg Offline
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Post: #26
RE: Chicago St BOT discuss OVC, Horizon for possible 2021 move
(09-09-2020 07:05 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(09-09-2020 05:31 AM)schmolik Wrote:  They are still Chicago and beggars can't be choosers.

Do you think the conference itself is at odds with member schools about that? I suspect there is some internal strife within because the conference simply won’t make a decision and seems to have no plan, or the same basic plan of “just survive.”

Major transportation hub or no, I’m also sure members would love to lob off travel costs for a school so far east of the conference “core.”

There are reasons for inertia.

1. Do the barely-Division-I schools of the WAC *really* want to start the ball rolling on a movement to look closely at the academic, financial, etc status of Division I schools, and take action against those who don't meet standards? "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
2. Same point as #1, except from the POV of school administrators. Today, you're the provost of Eastern Bigflatstate State University, signing off on CSU's Division I death warrant. Tomorrow, it could be Western Bigflatstate U on the block, and you just lost your chances at the university presidency at WBFSU.
3. Travel costs. Sure Chicago is further away, but it's on a plane, so less hours than an 8 hour bus trip, or a 9 hour bus-and-plane-and-bus trip.

4. Nobody really really benefits from kicking Chicago State to the curb. If they leave on their own, no one will miss them. But who's going to put in the man hours to make it happen? Why?

EDIT: WAC may need Chicago State a little bit, at least for a while, because they're the seventh full Division I member, with UMKC and Cal-Bakersfield leaving

1. UT Rio Grande Valley
2. New Mexico State
3. Utah Valley
4. Grand Canyon
5. Seattle
6. Cal Baptist (soon, but not sure exactly when they count as a full Division I core member)

I'm sure that if anything happened with Chicago State, the NCAA would give the WAC a waiver, but that's part of the same culture of letting things slide for members of the club that keeps Chicago State in the WAC.
(This post was last modified: 09-09-2020 07:55 AM by johnbragg.)
09-09-2020 07:31 AM
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bill dazzle Offline
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Post: #27
RE: Chicago St BOT discuss OVC, Horizon for possible 2021 move
As a long-time fan of both Belmont and Tennessee State, I follow the OVC somewhat and want it to do well. And I used to live in Chicago and would not mind seeing a university from the Windy City in the OVC. But Chicago State?
09-09-2020 07:57 AM
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IWokeUpLikeThis Offline
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RE: Chicago St BOT discuss OVC, Horizon for possible 2021 move
One league that wasn't mentioned - MEAC.
09-09-2020 08:35 AM
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Post: #29
RE: Chicago St BOT discuss OVC, Horizon for possible 2021 move
(09-09-2020 12:08 AM)BePcr07 Wrote:  Not to take away from your message that the BOT and AD left a lot to be desired but perhaps the bolded point above is correct. There could be 25 players with at least a partial scholarship. However, given the other wrong numbers, 25 is probably incorrect.

Yes, but I doubt the trustees even understood what equivalencies are.
09-09-2020 12:18 PM
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The Cutter of Bish Offline
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RE: Chicago St BOT discuss OVC, Horizon for possible 2021 move
(09-09-2020 07:31 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  
(09-09-2020 07:05 AM)The Cutter of Bish Wrote:  
(09-09-2020 05:31 AM)schmolik Wrote:  They are still Chicago and beggars can't be choosers.

Do you think the conference itself is at odds with member schools about that? I suspect there is some internal strife within because the conference simply won’t make a decision and seems to have no plan, or the same basic plan of “just survive.”

Major transportation hub or no, I’m also sure members would love to lob off travel costs for a school so far east of the conference “core.”

There are reasons for inertia.

1. Do the barely-Division-I schools of the WAC *really* want to start the ball rolling on a movement to look closely at the academic, financial, etc status of Division I schools, and take action against those who don't meet standards? "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
2. Same point as #1, except from the POV of school administrators. Today, you're the provost of Eastern Bigflatstate State University, signing off on CSU's Division I death warrant. Tomorrow, it could be Western Bigflatstate U on the block, and you just lost your chances at the university presidency at WBFSU.
3. Travel costs. Sure Chicago is further away, but it's on a plane, so less hours than an 8 hour bus trip, or a 9 hour bus-and-plane-and-bus trip.

4. Nobody really really benefits from kicking Chicago State to the curb. If they leave on their own, no one will miss them. But who's going to put in the man hours to make it happen? Why?

EDIT: WAC may need Chicago State a little bit, at least for a while, because they're the seventh full Division I member, with UMKC and Cal-Bakersfield leaving

1. UT Rio Grande Valley
2. New Mexico State
3. Utah Valley
4. Grand Canyon
5. Seattle
6. Cal Baptist (soon, but not sure exactly when they count as a full Division I core member)

I'm sure that if anything happened with Chicago State, the NCAA would give the WAC a waiver, but that's part of the same culture of letting things slide for members of the club that keeps Chicago State in the WAC.

I think “need” by the headcount is the only thing. You can recruit new D2 programs, but it means others are still leaving.

It’s not like it’s unknown and the work isn’t done. CSU isn’t meeting the very standards WAC has. They are in violation/out of code. But it seems no enforcement or accountability exists. It’s a joke.
09-09-2020 01:02 PM
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Fighting Muskie Online
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Post: #31
RE: Chicago St BOT discuss OVC, Horizon for possible 2021 move
Chicago St is only a member of the WAC in the sense that WAC schools play them on their schedules and they get invited to participate in conference tournaments. The instant the the WAC stabilizes and has enough full DI members and aren’t in eminent danger of a raid Chicago St is gone.
09-09-2020 01:09 PM
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Post: #32
RE: Chicago St BOT discuss OVC, Horizon for possible 2021 move
(09-09-2020 08:35 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  One league that wasn't mentioned - MEAC.

Chicago State isn't an HBCU. It would be the smallest school in the MEAC by far, and add travel to schools that probably can't afford it, either.
(This post was last modified: 09-09-2020 01:15 PM by DFW HOYA.)
09-09-2020 01:13 PM
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RE: Chicago St BOT discuss OVC, Horizon for possible 2021 move
(09-09-2020 08:35 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  One league that wasn't mentioned - MEAC.

Right—that’s the only conference, outside of the WAC, that would conceivably be willing to take on this dumpster fire program.

Their basketball RPI would fit right in with the MEAC.
09-09-2020 01:15 PM
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IWokeUpLikeThis Offline
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Post: #34
RE: Chicago St BOT discuss OVC, Horizon for possible 2021 move
(09-08-2020 10:16 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  A surprising and in many ways stunning lack of awareness by a university board of trustees.

One asks what sports CSU has. Another asks how many undergraduate students there are. Still another question doesn't know how much a scholarship is. The trustees should have this practically memorized from prior meetings and/or have a book of knowledge to be provided at every meeting. And no one questioned the fact that for a school that is traveling for the WAC, just 3% of its budget goes to travel? Wow.

The athletic director was similarly underwhelming. He should have had those numbers on the Horizon and OVC ready at the first question. If he doesn't know the numbers already, he's not doing his job. It also seemed no trustees bothered to ask about lower division play--are they aware Division II even exists? The trustees should be peppering the AD with questions about how he is going to meet budget and what is he prepared to do if he doesn't. The AD saying he's got a a 60% goal to meet revenues would be shot down at any for-profit board meeting. (The AD also said there were 25 scholarship athletes in baseball, but the limit is 11.7. No one picked up on that.)

For those that continued on in the YouTube broadcast, the director of admissions reported there are just 1,351 undergrads at Chicago State, down 20% from 2019 and less than half from 2015. A half hour later, the director of financial aid reported the undergraduate number as 1,673. No questions from the board. Bizarre.

Also, the presentation said there are 36 conferences.
09-09-2020 01:15 PM
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Wedge Offline
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Post: #35
RE: Chicago St BOT discuss OVC, Horizon for possible 2021 move
(09-09-2020 07:31 AM)johnbragg Wrote:  EDIT: WAC may need Chicago State a little bit, at least for a while, because they're the seventh full Division I member, with UMKC and Cal-Bakersfield leaving

1. UT Rio Grande Valley
2. New Mexico State
3. Utah Valley
4. Grand Canyon
5. Seattle
6. Cal Baptist (soon, but not sure exactly when they count as a full Division I core member)

IIRC, a transitioning-to-D1-school counts as a full D1 member from the time they begin D1 competition during the transition, with the exception of the transitioning school's eligibility for NCAA championships. So the schools that joined on July 1, 2020, Dixie State and Tarleton State, should now count toward the minimum number of full members the WAC has to have, in addition to CBU.
09-09-2020 01:15 PM
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Post: #36
RE: Chicago St BOT discuss OVC, Horizon for possible 2021 move
(09-09-2020 06:48 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  
(09-08-2020 09:37 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(09-08-2020 08:32 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  
(09-08-2020 08:30 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(09-08-2020 08:13 PM)HawaiiMongoose Wrote:  If so then good for the WAC. They'll still have eight full members and will finally have a semi-reasonable geographic footprint. That may actually help the conference recruit new schools.

I think you’ll see West Texas A&M announce a move to the WAC within 24 months.

What about Upper Iowa?

DavidSt’s the go-to expert on them. I’m still not convinced that’s a real school. How can there be an Upper Iowa when Iowa is flat?

Haha, I'm not sure exactly what is "Upper" about Iowa, either.

I wasn't sure if you were serious about West Texas A&M or if you were making a DavidSt joke since he mentions them all the time in his long lists, so I thought, "Ehy not the famous Upper Iowa, too?" 04-cheers


West Texas would actually fit into an FCS WAC now. David keeps pimping them for FBS

Upper Iowa is named after the Upper Iowa River, which flows in the upper part (northern) of the state. Like Upper Michigan is the northern part of the state.
09-09-2020 01:19 PM
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Post: #37
RE: Chicago St BOT discuss OVC, Horizon for possible 2021 move
(09-09-2020 01:13 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  
(09-09-2020 08:35 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  One league that wasn't mentioned - MEAC.

Chicago State isn't an HBCU. It would be the smallest school in the MEAC by far, and add travel to schools that probably can't afford it, either.

Right but they are predominantly black—so BCU with no H.

The 8 member MEAC is also one defection away from not meeting the qualifications for D1 so they might take them on just to keep the grim reaper away.

The MEAC plays buy games all over the place and has to pay to send teams to all those places—surely they are making some stops at O’Hare for layovers due to their status as a major airline hub. Just play Chicago St on your way to/from a slaughter.
09-09-2020 01:21 PM
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Fighting Muskie Online
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Post: #38
RE: Chicago St BOT discuss OVC, Horizon for possible 2021 move
(09-09-2020 01:15 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(09-08-2020 10:16 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  A surprising and in many ways stunning lack of awareness by a university board of trustees.

One asks what sports CSU has. Another asks how many undergraduate students there are. Still another question doesn't know how much a scholarship is. The trustees should have this practically memorized from prior meetings and/or have a book of knowledge to be provided at every meeting. And no one questioned the fact that for a school that is traveling for the WAC, just 3% of its budget goes to travel? Wow.

The athletic director was similarly underwhelming. He should have had those numbers on the Horizon and OVC ready at the first question. If he doesn't know the numbers already, he's not doing his job. It also seemed no trustees bothered to ask about lower division play--are they aware Division II even exists? The trustees should be peppering the AD with questions about how he is going to meet budget and what is he prepared to do if he doesn't. The AD saying he's got a a 60% goal to meet revenues would be shot down at any for-profit board meeting. (The AD also said there were 25 scholarship athletes in baseball, but the limit is 11.7. No one picked up on that.)

For those that continued on in the YouTube broadcast, the director of admissions reported there are just 1,351 undergrads at Chicago State, down 20% from 2019 and less than half from 2015. A half hour later, the director of financial aid reported the undergraduate number as 1,673. No questions from the board. Bizarre.

Also, the presentation said there are 36 conferences.

Hush—we don’t speak of the 4 secret conferences!
09-09-2020 01:22 PM
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Post: #39
RE: Chicago St BOT discuss OVC, Horizon for possible 2021 move
(09-09-2020 01:21 PM)Fighting Muskie Wrote:  
(09-09-2020 01:13 PM)DFW HOYA Wrote:  
(09-09-2020 08:35 AM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  One league that wasn't mentioned - MEAC.

Chicago State isn't an HBCU. It would be the smallest school in the MEAC by far, and add travel to schools that probably can't afford it, either.

Right but they are predominantly black—so BCU with no H.

The 8 member MEAC is also one defection away from not meeting the qualifications for D1 so they might take them on just to keep the grim reaper away.

The MEAC plays buy games all over the place and has to pay to send teams to all those places—surely they are making some stops at O’Hare for layovers due to their status as a major airline hub. Just play Chicago St on your way to/from a slaughter.

I do think it’s a real possibility but it may drive any remaining MEAC to leave quicker than they would have - Howard and North Carolina Central come to mind. Regardless, the MEAC could become the WAC of the East. I think the Atlantic Sun (which kinda had that WAC East role) is trending in a positive direction.
09-09-2020 01:48 PM
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Post: #40
RE: Chicago St BOT discuss OVC, Horizon for possible 2021 move
(09-09-2020 01:19 PM)dbackjon Wrote:  
(09-09-2020 06:48 AM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  
(09-08-2020 09:37 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  
(09-08-2020 08:32 PM)Michael in Raleigh Wrote:  
(09-08-2020 08:30 PM)IWokeUpLikeThis Wrote:  I think you’ll see West Texas A&M announce a move to the WAC within 24 months.

What about Upper Iowa?

DavidSt’s the go-to expert on them. I’m still not convinced that’s a real school. How can there be an Upper Iowa when Iowa is flat?

Haha, I'm not sure exactly what is "Upper" about Iowa, either.

I wasn't sure if you were serious about West Texas A&M or if you were making a DavidSt joke since he mentions them all the time in his long lists, so I thought, "Ehy not the famous Upper Iowa, too?" 04-cheers


West Texas would actually fit into an FCS WAC now. David keeps pimping them for FBS

Upper Iowa is named after the Upper Iowa River, which flows in the upper part (northern) of the state. Like Upper Michigan is the northern part of the state.

Realistically, West Texas A&M looks like the WAC's most promising expansion candidate right now. The school just opened a brand new on-campus stadium that looks a lot more like an FCS facility than a D2 facility. Their football attendance is in the top tier for D1 and above the FCS average. Like Tarleton State, they're part of the Texas A&M University System. And they fit the WAC's geographic footprint very well.
09-09-2020 02:00 PM
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